The infamous Sinaloa Cartel remains a dominant force in narcotics trafficking, especially fentanyl, entering the US with deadly synthetic drugs. In this exclusive, Professor Sebastián A. Cutrona of Liverpool Hope University breaks down the cartel’s operations and how President Trump's tariffs on Mexico might actually exacerbate the drug crisis instead of solving it.
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00:00with me today at asianet news is sebastian putrona he's an author a senior lecturer at criminology
00:20at liverpool hope university in uk he has also done extensive research in organized crime
00:26drug trafficking policing and latin america thank you so much sebastian for speaking with asianet news
00:32on this very important topic of drug crisis in latin america thank you hina for for the invitation
00:39i'm happy to have this conversation today right so sebastian i really want to keep this conversation
00:45focused on the one of the most infamous drug cartels which is sinaloa drug cartel why this
00:53particular region in mexico why not any other region what is so special about this region that
00:59so many you know drug laws are operating out of this place well there is a kind of geographical trap
01:07for mexico in this regard mexico is placed next to the biggest cocaine market in the world the most
01:14lucrative market in the world so mexico works as a key territory for the cocaine that is produced
01:24in the andian bridge especially in colombia to a lesser extent peru and bolivia and its traffic
01:31through mexico towards the united states so the geographical position of mexico makes the country
01:40a key territory a key territory for the drugs trafficked to the united states with one additional problem
01:47unlike the past where most of the drugs were produced in the andian bridge largely cocaine now mexico also
01:56manufactures fentanyl which makes also mexico and the territory a key point for the drugs entering the
02:06biggest fentanyl market in the world which is the united states so is it because of the vegetation that
02:12we have in sinaloa or is it that all the uh you know instruments or the equipment that is needed to
02:17process these synthetic drugs one of them of course fentanyl is located in sinaloa well uh unlike cocaine
02:25fentanyl is a synthetic opioid meaning that you do not need any um you know vegetation you don't need a
02:34climate uh uh you know benefits you don't need any environmental factor affecting the production
02:41you only need a laboratory and the knowledge and of course the inputs to manufacture fentanyl so unlike
02:48the case of cocaine that is largely if not entirely produced in the andian ridge where you do need the
02:56vegetation where you do need the climate the altitude and other factors shaping production to manufacture
03:03fentanyl you only need a laboratory the knowledge and some of the chemical precursors to produce it so
03:12mexico with some higher knowledge in the production of another synthetic drug which is bethamphetamines
03:21knows very well those criminal organizations of course knows very well how to produce fentanyl and this
03:29has accelerated particularly after 2019 when china imposed restrictions before 2019
03:37the manufacturing of fentanyl was almost inexistent in mexico that measure adopted by
03:46the chinese government as a result of pressure from the united states moved part of the manufacturing
03:52process from countries like china to mexico with again knowledge prior knowledge on the production of
04:00other synthetic drugs like bethamphetamines if you add to that scenario the fact that most of those
04:09organizations have the know the logistic and the capability to transport them to traffic drugs
04:17that becomes the perfect scenario for a crisis like the one that is happening today in the united states
04:24you know china still remains one of the place uh where these chemicals are imported from yes unlike the past
04:31when china in exported and and and and and trafficked to it to well there is a definition problem there but
04:39you know let's let's use the word transport of fentanyl it was finalized fentanyl so that changed after
04:482019 the finalized product is no longer coming from china there are of course some trafficking networks that
04:58still send fentanyl finalized fentanyl to the united states but now most of the illicitly manufactured fentanyl
05:06does not come from china but from mexico and this accelerated after 2019 however as you
05:14effectively mentioned some of the chemical precursors and the chemicals needed to manufacture fentanyl
05:22come from china across the border in united states you know the drug has already infiltrated in huge
05:29amounts uh and of course it is not only the drug crisis now it is also the repercussions of it for
05:34example violence economic mayhem and of course the corruptions where you know you see reports how
05:40u.s officials also sometimes touted to be functioning hand in glove with these drug lords uh how deep is
05:48the nexus which is there in united states and what all cities you see that uh there is a big issue and of
05:55course adding to that uh is fentanyl also being produced inside the borders of united states first of
06:02all uh let me say that i don't think that there is a so-called infiltration of some of the u.s
06:08cities or even the government in the united states by the sinaloa cartel that's something that i want
06:14to to clarify from the very beginning are there associates of the sinaloa cartel or other criminal
06:20organizations like the jalisco new generation cartel in the united states probably yes are they structured as
06:27an homogeneous or well-organized group that can threaten or infiltrate the united states i don't
06:34think so unlike mexico and other latin american countries at least at the local level the us has
06:41relatively strong institutions and effective law enforcement so i don't think that infiltration is a
06:47possibility in the united states why do we see this narrative suggesting that there is a cartel invasion
06:56in the united states and that the united states is going to suffer some of the consequences
07:01that mexico has witnessed in the past i think that political elites in the united states especially
07:07under this administration are effectively very effectively securitizing drug trafficking
07:13presenting it as an existential threat largely with political purposes uh finding and we don't have
07:21to forget this finding an external enemy has been an inherent feature of the united states politics
07:28since the foundation of the country so i don't see here a difference from what happened in the past but
07:36those cells those individuals that operate in the united states do not have the capability to either
07:43produce or manufacture drugs within the territory and most importantly i don't see those
07:51cells with the capabilities to threaten the state or to infiltrate the state strong institutions
07:58usually limit those types of situations situations that we do see in many latin american countries
08:06right but how does uh these drug cartels actually function i mean what sort of structure
08:12uh do we have i mean from what i've read i'm given to understand that they are mostly decentralized
08:17semi-autonomous uh you know groups functioning under a cartel so that you have you don't have to take
08:23commands from a central uh you know entity and you know do a lot a lot of back and forth so that is why
08:30they are also able to evade arrest so far i mean not major crackdown we have seen in the past so
08:36well that is totally correct um you know most of these cartels uh if we focus on the case of mexico are
08:44not hierarchical organizations like the colombian medellin cartel or to a lesser extent the cali cartel
08:52that were operational during the 80s and early 90s in in in colombia if you think about the the
08:59experience in the past those hierarchical organizations actually
09:05uh ended up you know when when the u.s law enforcement together with local police forces
09:14chopped the head of those organizations those organizations were dismantled
09:19so we no longer have the medellin or cali cartel after you know pablo escobar was killed in 1993 or the
09:26orejuela brothers were imprisoned in the mid uh 90s these organizations unlike the colombians
09:33are more like networks or a confederation of different smaller groups involved in drug
09:40trafficking some of the activities are in fact outsourced to partners that are not clearly or
09:46cannot be clearly defined as criminal organizations you have a lot of brokers you have lawyers money
09:53launderers among others of course of course it doesn't mean that there is no leadership within the
09:59organization that confederation usually has some point of leadership that allows the organizations
10:07to coordinate the activities that make possible that cocaine produced in the puto majo in colombia
10:16arrives to new york in the united states there is some level of coordination if you want to think
10:21about the biggest criminal organization the sinaloa cartel there are two major factions that actually have
10:27some kind of leadership within the organization we have the faction led or historically led by el
10:35mayo today it's called the magiza and los chapitos the other uh uh faction of the organization that is
10:42made of the four sons of el chapo right but a critical aspect a critical aspect to understand the power
10:48of these criminal organizations is not only by looking at the organization itself but also by looking
10:54at the state these organizations especially the mexican ones have prospered thanks to connections
11:01forged with the higher level of police and the military forces in that country and this is perhaps a
11:09distinguishing future if you think about those infamous organizations like the sinalo cartel they have
11:15prospers because of those connections established with the state without the state we know
11:22no we cannot have organizations of this size and of this power so i always invite my students to
11:31understand organized crime as a kind of conjunctions between two things on the one hand the underworld
11:38the criminal organization but also the state why we don't have organizations of that size in the united
11:44states the answer among other factors of course it shape and this is a very complex phenomenon
11:50but the strength of the state and the power of its institutions is a critical aspect to understand
11:56why mexico harbors those organizations another not out of the countries like the united states but of
12:03course i mean the way that these two factions that you spoke about you know one by el chapo definitely
12:10he is now has already been extradited to us and now in prison you know the one faction of el chapo and
12:17the another one of the another one of me what is the key differences because i think el chapo is more
12:23aggressive and el mayo is more low profile uh so how do it's it's very contrasting how do they function
12:31well historically when especially when you know both of the leaders cooperate and we have to understand
12:37that you know before the imprisonment of the chapel and you know and the chapitos taking control of the
12:44organization and especially after you know this alleged uh uh uh uh uh you know event where uh one
12:52of the son of the chapito put el mayo in a plane and then you know handed to to the u.s authorities but
12:58before that before that both leaders of the organizations cooperated we have to to to understand that
13:05it is true that historically el mayo has been perceived to be less violent relying more on
13:13corruption whereas el chapo exerted more aggressive leadership within the organization some people
13:22argue some specialists argue that these two type of leadership futures made the organization a very
13:30powerful female group you have corruption on the one hand and more kind of soft power on them on the
13:36one hand and on the other hand you have a strong arm that uses violence to impose respect among other
13:44organizations as well today however i would say that there are no many differences beyond that
13:49generational aspect and the generational aspect is also key here we have the chapitos being the younger
13:56faction of the organization and then the magisa with older leaders of the organization each of those
14:03factions regardless of of of if we are talking about the chapitos or the magisa of course control armed
14:11groups that they use to have control over the territories and sometimes conquer uh other territories
14:19uh for example those chapitos have associated with groups like lot ninis
14:24and the nueva whereas el mayo collaborate with anthrax and los rusos just to mention a few examples
14:30so we do not have an homogeneous organizations but rather factions that have subgroups inside to control
14:38the territories regarding the drugs and this is perhaps where another difference can be highlighted
14:45there seems to be evidence there seems to be evidence that indicate that los chapitos are more involved
14:51in fentanyl manufacturing compared to la magista which seems to be more involved in cocaine trafficking
15:01and manufacturing of methamphetamines what all strategies mexico is adopting in order to calm down on
15:08these groups of course you know given uh trump's uh threats of tariffs mexico is trying to be more you know
15:15cooperative with united states and talking about extraditing more people to united states
15:20deploying more troops but exactly what can happen on ground because this this issue seems to be
15:25plaguing the country for a very long time what exactly mexico can do under the presidency of
15:30claudia shinbon to actually tackle this issue well the president has been very active especially after
15:37you know uh uh the u.s pressure was so evident during the last couple of months the the president
15:46appointed omar garcia hardship which is the secretary of security to coordinate law enforcement strategy
15:52on the ground so he sent the secretary of security uh to sinaloa to coordinate the security initiatives
16:01against those organizations right especially the sinaloa cartel she deployed more than 10 000 troops to
16:10the northern border that happened after uh trump threatened the mexican state to invade or to send military
16:19troops or to impose new tariffs against the mexican government and most importantly and this is a kind of
16:27big difference with the past she extradited 29 criminal leaders of the most notorious criminal
16:35organizations that have ever existed in mexico and we can name here the case of rafael caro quintero the
16:41former leader of the guadalajara cartel miguel and omar angel trevino who were the leaders of the setas
16:48in in the past are these measures enough are these measures enough well i see this as a transnational
16:56problem so probably this may not be enough to actually counter the power of those organizations with demand
17:04in the united states and when i talked about demand i mainly i'm mainly talking about fentanyl being
17:09stable overdoses have decreased slightly decreased cocaine overdoses are increasing so demand seems to be
17:18increasing in the united states but with the man stable in general terms prices extremely high the
17:27economic incentives for criminal organizations in latin america let's talked about mexico in this case
17:33where state institutions are weak are endless so as long as these opportunities are there
17:42i do not see a rational alternative for those criminal groups i do not see a rational alternative for
17:49those criminal groups unfortunately unlike the past we see an international scenario that is different
17:58and when i say different is an international scenario that is mostly focused on the supply
18:05that rejects assistance as a way to to promote institution building to create alternative
18:12opportunities but rather uses the harm the power of the state in this case the military to confront
18:21criminal organizations so this is a failed strategy this is a failed recipe that has not worked in the
18:27past and we seems to be we seem to be repeating over and over in latin america you know working because
18:34if you impose startup on mexico then of course there there will be economic chaos in the country there'll
18:40be more unemployment and then there will be more recruits so is it even you know uh going to tackle the
18:48issue at all the trump tariffs it's a counterproductive i think that you said it very clearly it's a
18:54counterproductive with unintended consequences of strategy why is it counterproductive well the
19:01mexican economy relies extensively on what happens in the united states right uh as a way of you know uh
19:09place the products of of the mexican companies and production in general from from from the country so
19:15those tariffs is finally imposed are going to harm severely the economy in mexico with an economy that
19:25is not prospering the incentives for individuals to join criminal organizations are going to be higher
19:34because a critical aspect that i think that i mentioned the the word and the term war on drugs when
19:40referring to trump's strategy it is truth that trump is applying a revised version of the war on drugs
19:47but there is a difference there is a difference compared to the past which i think is going to have
19:52enormous consequences in mexico the difference is that trump war on drugs does not rely on economic
19:59assistance there is no economic assistance unlike the past where we had plan colombia with the
20:05colombian government or the merida initiative with mexico there is no economic assistance there is
20:11only coercion and diplomatic pressure and those initiatives are likely to generate more problems
20:19than solutions not only in mexico but in other countries in latin america what all financial tools
20:24are at the disposal of these leaders to be able to carry out these cartel activities well all the resources
20:30coming from these organizations were originally uh coming from the underworld meaning that those
20:36criminal activities uh provided a lot of cash to these criminal organizations however these criminal
20:43organizations cannot spend the money as soon as they receive it from those who buy the drugs from
20:51those who supply the drugs and so forth they need to lunder that money so many of these criminal organizations
20:58all of these criminal organizations also relied on money landers who are the ones in charge of putting the
21:06money out of the underworld into the legal economy this is how these criminal organizations have used the
21:15money to infiltrate both politics and the illicit economy with money being laundered you have resources to do
21:26two different things that are critical to understand the power of these criminal organizations first you
21:33can infiltrate the government you don't need money laundering to infiltrate the government you can do it
21:38with dirty money as well but most importantly you can infiltrate the economy and by infiltrating the economy
21:45i mean diversifying the portfolio of those criminal organizations they own legal companies shield companies
21:53they can send money abroad they can send money abroad and this is how the task of countering
21:59organized crime becomes more difficult how can you fight a criminal organization if the person you are
22:08fighting with it's not a criminal but a lawyer a ceo of a company so that transition from a criminal organization
22:19a fully criminal organization to an organization that has infiltrated the economy becomes one of the key
22:26stages to understand why drug trafficking has been very difficult to fight and why organized crime is a
22:34critical actor in many latin american countries well i think that first of all what we need is demand
22:42control measures in the united states right the biggest you were the biggest illicit market in the
22:49world by far is the united states so we cannot fight those criminal organizations if we first
22:58not tackle the incentives for those organizations to operate with prices increasing due to the illicit
23:06nature of the nature of the drug and many of the lack of demand or harm reduction policies in the united states
23:13you may expect criminal organizations to continue uh participating in those activities so i think that
23:21first of all we need to place more emphasis on the demand not just focusing on the supply of illicit drugs
23:30and we need to invest more on institution building i think that institution building needs to be a key
23:37initiative what are the international ways to approach this well i think that and unfortunately in latin
23:47america today the political landscape does not seem to be very cohesive to move towards a more collective
23:56way to approach drug trafficking we do we did have that kind of landscape in the past i think that we
24:02missed an opportunity in the early 2000s to approach the problem of organized crime in a more collective way
24:10but um sorry to be pessimistic i do not see today a room for a more multilateral way to approach drug
24:19trafficking in the region
24:26in the region
24:28you
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