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00:00what's up everybody this is mark lamon hill and welcome to tonight's conversation it's called
00:25my masculinity we're dealing with how black men express themselves in their families uh to the
00:32world even to themselves and we have a just a great group of people here to have that conversation
00:37i'd like to introduce the panelists so we can get going right away uh the first person he's a
00:41superstar everybody knows who he is the singer he's a songwriter and he has a new ep out uh it's
00:46a six song ep it's called while you wait uh let's show some love to tank we're also joining
00:51we can't clap it up for him i saw this brother on the internet uh on instagram and youtube having
01:03some great conversations with his son uh he's an entrepreneur he's an educator he's a social media
01:08uh personality uh give it up for kyron gibson
01:11and of course you know him as a comedian he's a writer he is apparently an instagram
01:21relationship coach i got so many questions for him he is a comedian who everybody knows give it up
01:26for chris spencer
01:27relationship coach okay
01:32relationship expert not just a coach expert is that not true yeah on what not to do so maybe yeah
01:41that's how you get it right you get you be in so many relationships not to do
01:46my whole goal today is to get kyron to smile once
01:50he did he did look like he did say oh that's better that's better
01:57let's talk about let's talk about masculinity because that's a term that gets used a lot
02:04um and people talk about the decline the decline of masculinity you know we need more masculine men
02:10uh some people say masculinity is the problem how do you all define masculinity to yourselves and for
02:14yourself
02:17well if you name yourself tank
02:19so let's start from there if your name is tank or bow rock or yeah you're pretty masculine um
02:32i think it is having the qualities and aspects and uh embodiment of what a man is
02:43uh yeah that's that's what i'm gonna go with there first okay okay uh well
02:50here's what here's what i say to it um
02:53masculinity for most of us is something that we learn like how to be a man
02:58um in terms of a man what to do and what not to do
03:01and a lot of those things vary you know what i'm saying depending on um who was instilling those
03:08qualities in you you know what i mean you have some that say you know being masculine is not showing
03:13emotion and you have those that say showing emotion is the ultimate of masculinity you know
03:19what i mean so um it's really hard to put into a box you know what masculine is because i think i think
03:26i think it it it covers so much ground um depending on how you want to stand on it um
03:32how do you make sense of it how do you make sense of it because i you're right the world has all these
03:38different ideas about what masculinity is but as an adult the fact that you can kind of stand back and
03:42say look there are these different perspectives on it how have you do you use the term and if so
03:47like how do you use it what does it mean to you
03:48i can honestly say i don't necessarily use that word you know what i mean like even when i'm even
03:55when i'm talking to my my son i'm like you know he's like well daddy why can't i do that and i'm
04:00like well because a man doesn't do that a man does this a man opens the door for the young lady a man
04:05buys a woman roses a man tells a woman she's beautiful um a man expresses himself you know his
04:11feelings and so that's how he's coming to terms with at least my idea of masculinity and and what was
04:18given to me you know so um i i just preach it you kind of define it um you kind of define it for
04:25yourself and your own life's experiences but i don't think we can and we're not even going this
04:31far yet but i don't think we can define for anyone else what their masculinity is or what it means to
04:36them mm-hmm karen what do you say so many ways of it like you said like depending on who your father
04:42was who was your who was your role models growing up so um i look at it as like what he says a man
04:47like me if i was described masculinity i'm gonna describe it as a leader that's accountable
04:52as a male so like if i'm leading my son if i'm leading you know me like how am i leading am i
04:58accountable am i a hypocrite am i a liar do i play games do i do not respect women like this is how
05:03you look at it and it's so many levels of it so is y'all ever worry though because i think about this a
05:10lot as the father of daughters i look at it in in a slightly different way um when we say like to be
05:18a man is to be a leader to be a man is to be responsible does that ever send a message that
05:22if you're not responsible if you're irresponsible and not disciplined and not a leader that you're
05:27being less like a man and therefore more like a woman do some of our ideas of manhood ultimately
05:31end up being a knock against sisters that's a great question i think some of those qualities
05:38also encompass you know how you're you're a great woman and how you are able to be feminine
05:44uh i don't think words like being a leader and strong are negative knocks on being a woman i think they
05:52they both both those definitions and all those words can can equal both people
05:57and it depends yeah no go ahead i'm with you i'm with you okay your woman can be your leader like
06:06if my lady if my if my woman is better paying the bills on time i'm gonna give her the money and let
06:11her teach me how to pay my bills on time if my woman can lead the family and shut her teaching me
06:16at the same time i'm gonna leave if i'm better at this quality teach me so that's that's the part of
06:22being a leader don't it's there's no wrong your your lady can be a better leader than you
06:26i mean depending on who you are so yeah i was just i was just getting ready to you know speak
06:31to that because there are many cases where you know you you didn't you didn't hooked up with this
06:37strong woman and and she has vital uh vital information and vital qualities that could help
06:44turn this man into um whatever that is that she needs and it also speaks to the need of a woman a
06:51woman may be like listen i just need you to do this you know i'm saying all that extra super macho you
06:55don't have to be there for me like you can be this and then you have women that say hey look
06:59i need grown stomped down run the house don't play no games you know i'm saying type of i need you
07:07cutting the grass breaking the leaves like you know and so it it can't be uh i don't know i mean i
07:15i'm like this free spirit free living kind of guy so i hate to put rules and on the on these types
07:22of things you know what i mean because it's all based on a need you know what i mean and what's
07:26needed at the time what's needed in the relationship i know you're being somewhat progressive in how you
07:31talk about it and you too kyra and chris i mean you as well there's a way though that a lot of times
07:36in society when we say being a real man or being real masculine we do mean not crying we do mean
07:42being tough all the time sometimes we mean being straight sometimes we mean being hypersexual
07:46so how do we how do we think about those things because you know that's part of the concern about
07:52this word masculine is that while we in this room might have a more expansive definition of it in
07:58everyday society when people say it they mean something very particular i think we should take
08:02out the word the thought of being macho as opposed to being masculine i think the fathers today
08:09we're doing things and i maybe i can only speak for myself i'm doing things that my father never did
08:13i'm going to every one of my kids friends birthday parties uh uh you know we live in la so i'm going
08:21to bar mitzvahs and bat mitzvahs uh i'm going to you know i don't remember my father ever going to a
08:27baby shower with my wife um with my mom so i think we're kind of a different breed of fathers and men
08:38that are different than the guys that were you know uh that were before us i can add to that list
08:45too i i love that list because it's like you know i i never saw my father go get a manny and petty
08:52with my mom you know what i'm saying but you know my my wife be like i'm going to get a manny and petty
08:57you in hell yeah man you know what i'm saying i want i want that i want some of that hot wax too
09:03throw some of that hot wax on the player you know i'm saying to give and give me that shiny buff you
09:07know so i think we're kind of we're we're kind of redefining it because um i think i think we were
09:16trying to take a different stance the generations before us you know what i mean and it had a lot to do
09:22with protection um more so back then and and how you needed to appear in protecting and taking care of
09:31your family and now that as we move progressively we're able to kind of put down some of those
09:37defenses you know what i mean and participate um in different and more so in more in many ways in
09:43more ways than we used to fathers used to and it depends on who you're dealing with as well so if
09:48i'm dealing with somebody's extra emotional i need to break down what i'm saying in a more sensitive
09:53light and that's not making you a beta male you just knowing how to handle people for who they are
09:58and what they and what and what how they deal with things and what they call you so right i'm glad
10:03you mentioned emotion because one of the big things that often uh comes with this conversation
10:08about masculinity is emotion and particularly you know tank was just talking about how we grew up
10:13and how we're trying to be different than the generations before us but part of the part of the
10:19challenge of that is how we were raised like you know i was raised you know we shouldn't be crying if
10:23i cried at five or six they'd be like oh you cry too much you know don't cry so much you know
10:27uh there are ways that we weren't allowed to show vulnerability that then plays out
10:31you know later on in life sometimes how were you all raised around this idea of emotion and emotionality
10:37well my my i was raised by big daddy so big daddy um big daddy used to have a shotgun on the porch
10:44and when uh when big daddy came home i think big daddy had like maybe a fourth grade education
10:51he worked at the steel mill and so he had a a layer half a layer dead skin on his fingers
10:57and when and when he came home he would say paul lewis home now it's a big difference and
11:02everybody was scattered you know what i mean and so that's how you showed emotion you came in
11:14you know what i mean and so yeah you know moving forward to today and just learning um about the
11:21emotion i mean i'm an r b singer you know what i mean so i'm um involuntary tap to invariant voluntarily
11:27tapped into my emotions on i just can't help it so with my son i am asking him why is he crying not
11:36just stop all this crying you know i'm saying because there is a disconnect to that you are
11:40allowed to show emotion as a man but let me ask you something little young fella why are you crying
11:45tell me what this crying is about what is this emotion that you're tapped into and if you're being too
11:50emotional then i can say the reason why you're crying is wrong stop crying about that don't
11:55nobody need to be crying about no peanut butter and crackers that's it you don't cry about that
11:59right but not because it's a boy but not because it's a boy exactly right hank is home it's a big
12:05difference it's a big difference i need people scattering it's all about the communication like
12:11what you just like what he just said it's all about the communication like that's that's the
12:15core everything we talk about like you don't know how to communicate like my son my son he he's he's
12:21a regular kid he has days he don't want to study that's cool but come communicate i mean i'm gonna
12:25break down why it's important like king this is why it's important you need this knowledge so you can't
12:30get played or or blah blah blah it's all about communicating i'm not gonna say a screen you just
12:34come here study you say it to a child they're gonna be like well wait they're not gonna listen to you
12:38you can't wait you know what i'm saying that's that's your woman anything nobody gonna follow your
12:42lead if you can't communicate on the property unless you're forcing them to if you're doing
12:45that you got a problem right now so how are you raised though how are you raised were you raised
12:49with that kind of that kind of latitude emotionally i didn't have no voice you know what i'm saying like
12:55my dad no voice no you you doing this or you don't like go make your own money like you're gonna do
13:03what i'm telling you i'm paying the bills and put a roof on your head and i needed that but my dad
13:08they gave me a voice now he learned from me of how i would rebel to give my little brothers a voice
13:15so i'll give my son a voice but it's not what he gonna run me but we still gonna talk about them
13:20choose what he wants but i'm gonna explain to him why it is not gonna happen so i didn't have no voice
13:24y'all know what it is old school i had no voice so right how about mine mine is weird because i had
13:31i had a stepfather i'm gonna write this name of my book i want to call it i had two dads and none of
13:37them played catch with me so stepfather i had a dad that was like you know dude is in your life you
13:52probably should be doing stuff with dude and he was and the stepfather was like i don't know if i want
13:57to step on the toes of the stuff that dude should be doing so i'm just sitting here with a ball going
14:02nobody nobody wants to like that so i never got the birds and the bees conversation from any of the
14:07men i never got the uh men don't cry like all that all that stuff i kind of either learned on my own
14:15learn from some older cat in the hood or learn from my mother um but i never got any like life lessons
14:22like i think i i i wish i would have had those let me sit down and talk to you about condoms or you
14:30know a shotgun i never had any of that did you have a chance chris to be emotional like i mean even with
14:36your mom around or whoever when he was in the street i mean did you feel the space to be able to say i'm
14:41sad i'm disappointed to cry to feel anything absolutely absolutely really absolutely so funny but
14:47i've never seen any of those two even though my stepfather is a little bit more uh uh what's the
14:55word i i don't want to say metrosexual but he's a he's more he's a soft-spoken guy and my dad is a
15:00throwback to the man's man but i've never seen any one of them cry and i think my son has seen me cry
15:05at least 15 times yeah my when you asked about the mom my mom was my see i didn't get i didn't get no
15:13space no latitude on no sides like you gotta think like me me and my mom jumped somebody before
15:22so that's my mama you know what i'm saying like my mama took my mama woke up one morning on a broke
15:27leg took my daughter to uh took my sister to the hospital came back took me to school all on the
15:32city bus like that's my mama so ain't no crying around here you know i'm saying ain't no sensitivity
15:38man i i didn't i didn't have that room you know what i'm saying like kyber said i didn't i didn't
15:41have no room it was do as i say because i say that's it right tank did that impact your relationships
15:48growing up like before you get to the place you are now whether it was specifically romantic
15:53relationships was it hard to get to that space where you felt emotionally healthy and and had
15:57the room to be the person you are now absolutely absolutely um it affected me in two ways um um
16:05not necessarily being able to show or communicate those emotions you know what i mean and it was hard
16:14it was hard being in in relationships um but also being in my head at the same time you know i wasn't
16:23free in these relationships and my failure to communicate or to be able to communicate for that
16:29matter would always cause a blow up somewhere later on down the line to where everything that was in
16:35my head would just explode you know what i mean and so we're at the end of the line end of a relationship
16:42and she's like i didn't know any of this i wish you would have told me and so you know i think for our
16:49community we are late bloomers in terms of communicators and that's across the board be it
16:55business be it relationships be it everything because we just grow up not being able to communicate
17:02um completely you know and and and that hurt us it hurt me it hurt me at the beginning like i'm
17:08i'm 44 years old and i'm still learning about communicating my emotions but i'm better at it
17:14how about how about chris chris how about you in terms of communicating relate uh my emotions yeah
17:22yeah i think i don't think i've ever been afraid to let that out you know what i mean and maybe
17:31in front of people at least with this person i'm married um it comes out not necessarily i'm weeping
17:41but i will not hold anything in and you know she will know that some things make some things i'm sensitive
17:50and i'm not afraid to let her know that upset me and uh you triggered my sensitive side and i don't
17:57like when you do that but i married a tough one you know what i mean i married a woman who's
18:01whose apology is i'm sorry you felt like that after i said what i said
18:05uh honestly man i'm i'm on the same boat with everybody uh with tank what he said i was the
18:20same way i thought i had to be hard all time like even with like well i would be quiet because i want
18:25to step on my toes and then i was just like you know what chris said uh if you find the right person
18:30you can be who you are with that person um you know what i'm saying so my problem like with me
18:35i'm an introvert but i have a public side of me and i have a private side of me you know something
18:40i can go in the club and walk through and speak to people but i don't feel like really talking all
18:44day but that's just i'm in that mood if i'm not in that mood i'm not going to talk so it just depends
18:48on what mood i am but if i if i'm close to you and i trust you i'm me i don't care you know
18:53i'm saying but if i don't trust you of course this is my public side and but my communication i'm
18:57i'm big on communication i was horrible communication i used to burn bridges so i
19:02had to teach myself i had to re-teach myself because we black people we learned that from
19:06oppression of not communicating you know what i'm saying so we we always have to show how strong we
19:11are that's what we still do it to today we can be in a room full of black men that won't speak to
19:15each other because we're trying to show our alpha male so hard and we don't have to do that so um yeah
19:21communication and i had to teach myself this let me ask you another question because i watch these videos
19:26on youtube of you with your son and they're they're really wonderful videos how was it a journey
19:32for you was it natural for you to be able to have those kind of relationships uh and experiences with
19:37your son in terms of showing emotion with your son and an affection for your son was that was that a
19:41process for you it was it was honestly easy because my family no no dead beats allowed so ain't nobody
19:47my family dead beats and my dad was great like he played games with us like he made stuff fun i mean he
19:52might cuss and make us laugh but we knew we couldn't cuss so you know same thing with my son
19:56there's nothing new but the things that my dad wasn't open with me like make let me have a voice
20:01i'm more letting letting my son have a voice and talking to him instead of beating him down now my
20:07dad didn't do this but instead of beating him down for being emotional i break down like tank said early
20:11like why are you crying you know so i explained something that he gets to understand it like okay i don't
20:16need to do that you can't just you know we quit to yell our kids and scream you can't do that all the time
20:20you know what i'm saying so you know with king is easiest i'm just i'm trying to make him better
20:24than what i did because my mistake was when i was older they tried to get on me and make me a man at
20:3112 or 13. i'm too late i'm already a slave society i'm i'm not listening to you i'm here in puberty
20:36i'm worried about girls i don't care about the schoolwork so now that i'm stealing my son early
20:40like we all like he's early it's no problems with me and my son so it's all good you know so i know
20:46we don't have a ton of time but i just want to ask a couple more questions real quick chris
20:50i want to ask you about discipline um actually i'd like to ask all y'all about this how were you all
20:59and how did that shape how you discipline your children because one of the things about masculinity
21:03again is we think this we got one gear when it's time for discipline right and at least where i came
21:08from right it was the yelling and the beating and you know now there's a whole lot of other
21:13conversation going on about about discipline how was it for y'all um i got smacked uh i remember
21:20one time um so my parents were divorced and this is before my mom got remarried and she would get
21:26upset with me and then she would call my dad over to to spank me and he got tired of it so i remember
21:31one day he came over and he closed the door and he just hit the bed and said act like i'm hitting you
21:38because i'm not doing this no more and so he never ever and then as for my kids you know i never
21:45have ever given them a beating but i've plucked them and pinched them and then one time this really
21:51upset me uh one time i was getting mad at myself i was mad at my son he was like three years old
21:56and i was like why would you do that and he turned around and pulled down his pants for me to spank him
22:02and i was like i've never done that where'd you learn that from and that we both sat there and
22:07cried because i don't know where he learned that from i don't know if you saw it on a cartoon or
22:11i'm about to say you don't figure out where he got that from i'd have been concerned like it was
22:15really yeah he just turned around like this i was like now either she unless she's in there beating
22:23i don't know where that i don't know i don't know if he was at a friend's house maybe it was like
22:33five and he did that and i was like i'll never hit you again or thump you or pinch you or nothing
22:38and it it messed me up how about you um i mean here's the thing i didn't i didn't pick cotton
22:47as a kid but my consequences and repercussions were very slave-like i just want to get into that
22:57um i got i got touched up pretty pretty decently pretty often that's a song by the way
23:08but but and and i can also say that i was a very challenging kid growing up i was i was into it all
23:16the other gangs be at the streets and church all at the same time i was a really confused kid
23:21um and so coming out of that i was able to identify the bit the pros and cons right and i didn't see it
23:31as beneficial going into raising my own kids and like chris says i give a little tap or a little pinch
23:37and you know my five-year-old son he's really challenging me because you know he he likes to
23:41like act like he's swinging on his mama so i got to touch him a little bit you know what i mean
23:46um but i just i feel like i feel like i'm in the you know i'm in the boat with kyron i'm in the boat
23:52with chris where it's really about communication and a lot of times getting into the psyche of what
23:58they're thinking that made them do the thing that they did let's talk about this because i need to
24:02understand why you thought that it would be good to take your sword and actually like sword fight the
24:11cats i want to know what will make what made you think that that was cool to do before we talk about
24:15discipline before i make you stay in your room or sit in the bed or whatever it is
24:19and so i just i for me i've just learned that the beatings aren't needed they aren't needed to
24:27communicate that that was wrong you should not do that and to move on into a good place i don't want
24:34my children you know i don't want there to be a failure to communicate because they're scared of
24:39something else you understand what i'm saying i want them to be able to say respectfully well dad
24:46this is what happened and this is why i did it and this is how i feel about it cool you're either
24:50right or you're wrong we're gonna get into that and and we'll deal with it from there
24:56kyron mentioned something about you know he's talking about going in the club and speaking
24:59about do you all relate to other black men particularly at the emotional level right
25:05have you all grown in that way is is it still a challenge to talk to and connect with other black
25:10women well i'm i'm weird people think i speak to everybody the thug the the bartender the bouncer
25:17i talk to everybody and some of them are like why is he talking to me so i like to make people feel
25:23at ease not and not like i'm just some you know uh uh uh what's the thing called what's this the
25:31jukebox monkey that's here to entertain but i i like i don't like seeing us up you know everybody's
25:36like this like you know what we're in this together we're actually at a club and in the words of jamie fox
25:43let's get at these i mean i don't know how about you um like here's what's crazy right is that i've
26:07been around jamie fox and chris spencer and those guys for so long to where those are the guys that
26:15i learned that from you know what i mean to where they walk into a space and disarm everybody you know
26:22what i mean like everybody the whole room it goes from a standoff to a celebration like in a matter
26:30of seconds you know what i mean and those are the guys i learned that from and so you know that's how i
26:35am people are surprised when they meet me because when they meet me it's like it's like they're kind
26:41of standoffish and i'm like man what's happening man come on in this section you want something to
26:44drink man we about to get at these you see what i'm saying before i was married you feel before i was
26:48married um um we all learned that from the foxhole we learned that learned that from the foxhole
26:57before we go there's a uh an important conversation that we're having in the community really around the
27:02country around the black lgbt community and part of the conversation around masculinity and healthy
27:10forms of masculinity uh is a conversation about there being room for there to be gender non-conforming
27:16people room for there to be gay uh brothers and sisters lesbian brothers or lesbian sisters
27:22uh and so forth and so on how how do we make are we making room in the right ways how do you
27:28perceptions of masculinity conform with what it means to be black and and lgbt i'll let kyron go
27:35first we haven't heard from karen in a minute honestly um my whole thing with that um i i never
27:42really paid attention to it because with myself i know i'm a straight male so i don't care with nobody
27:47what they like you know i'm all about how you treat me as a person so i don't judge i don't care you
27:51know we all brothers and sisters at the end of the day so i mean this is something that do need to be
27:57looked at and talking about because we do need to come together in every way shape and form we're
28:01gonna have equality we gotta have it the full force so uh honestly i'm glad y'all spoke that because
28:06you made me sit here thinking about something i never thought about so for the people to go to do
28:10this situation so i'm gonna actually i'm gonna actually really start seeing paying attention today
28:15i'm glad y'all brought this up because it makes me feel you know yeah so you know you know what's funny
28:21about us and and and homosexuality it's like we're so worried that this dude is gonna come on
28:29to me and i'm gonna have to punch him or something and it's like what makes you think he wants you
28:36you know what i mean like girls don't want you what makes you think this dude wants you so
28:40we're all we're like this worried about you know a uh you know if he comes on to me i'm gonna have to
28:49be tough b he comes on to me i'm afraid i might like it so i've never i've never had that problem
28:58because i've grown up with you know people in school and people on my block so i've never ever looked at
29:07him weird you know what i mean it's just been like that's what he chooses to do and he happens
29:13to be the toughest dude on the block so i never thought of them less of a man or less masculine
29:21because you know this dude was faster than us he had better hops than us the other dude could swim
29:27faster than like so i've never looked down or frowned upon anybody who was from that community
29:34yeah i just think we don't and i guess i guess we can only speak for our community right there's
29:41there's just a lack of understanding um and there's not really a true conversation in that space about
29:50about who and and what we are we are all different we all have something different to contribute to
29:58society we are all different sexually in our sexual composition we are all different and different
30:05doesn't mean wrong you know what i mean and we haven't come to terms with allowing people to just
30:12be who they are different from us different from me different from you like and until we truly do that
30:19until we truly say you know what that's a gay man right there but it's okay for him to be gay
30:25that's fine live your best life if you're if that's part of living living your best life enjoy
30:31your life that is fine and then flip on the other side because there's some there's some gays
30:37that are probably like how can you be straight well i enjoy being straight straight is awesome
30:41you know what i'm saying so i think we have to get to a space where we stop judging um stop making
30:49everybody wanting to be one thing wanting to be like me or like us and defining everybody with my
30:54rules and my expectations um and once we get out of that place we can truly um accept each other
31:01accept everybody you know i i think you hit the nail right on the head and that's actually a great
31:06place uh for us to wrap up because i think that's where we need to be as a community uh we need to
31:12create space that is open that is welcoming that is affirming to everybody and reimagine masculinity
31:18reimagine masculinity in a way that is healthy and that is whole that is that is healing that
31:23liberates our community and liberates ourselves so i want to thank you all for being part of the
31:26conversation uh kyron gibson chris spencer tank thank you all appreciate it
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