00:00Субтитры делал DimaTorzok
00:30Now, we're a few months into 2026 and it's really been dizzying in terms of geopolitical development.
00:36You've spoken out about the US's actions from Venezuela to Greenland.
00:42Where does this new world order that's emerging leave Europe?
00:46You know, I think we are not used to experience this acceleration.
00:51You know, things are happening that would have been impossible a few years ago.
00:55And I think it's just a follow-up of different years, what I call the kind of perfect storm.
01:02You know, since many years we are going from a crisis to another crisis.
01:06And it's very difficult to have perspective in this.
01:09And maybe, I'm not sure, but my impression is that 2026 could be a kind of rapture, strong rapture.
01:14What does it mean? It doesn't mean that it is the end of the world.
01:17It means that we are in a chaotic situation and probably we will have to then to organise some adaptation
01:23to see how we can really make sure that what we want to have as ways of living for our societies,
01:31for our continent, will be strong in the future.
01:33And where does this leave the Council of Europe?
01:35Can Europe continue to be this beacon for democracy, rule of law, in this new world order?
01:41Well, who else? You know, I mean, we are coming.
01:44The Council of Europe comes from this very brutal history of the Second World War.
01:49And just after this, I mean, it was clear that if we want to live in a world where this never happened again,
01:58it's difficult to make sure that we had to start with organising societies' rights
02:06to have this convergence between European societies.
02:09And it is now in history about more than 75 years.
02:13But the Council of Europe was created exactly for those kind of tough times, what we also have now.
02:18And I think that more than before, today it is important to reaffirm the support that we have for this way of life.
02:24You were very vocal when Donald Trump was threatening Greenland.
02:28That's kind of been diffused slightly.
02:31But I know you met with Donald Trump when you were previously the Swiss president during Donald Trump's first term.
02:37And if you were to meet with him again today, how do you think that conversation would go?
02:42First thing, I can't remember, as I met him for a bilateral meeting in 2018,
02:48he was mentioning exactly what's happening today.
02:51He was mentioning trade balance.
02:53He was mentioning Greenland.
02:55He was mentioning this, but not maybe able to make it happen.
02:58Today it is different.
02:59And I mean, we need not only to take this seriously, but also to think about what it means for the world we want to live in.
03:07If we have strong allies trying or starting to threaten also sovereignty of European territory,
03:17what does it mean for the world we are living in?
03:19I think we must be strong, we must be united, and to try to define together what we want to achieve together in five or ten years,
03:28not only on defense issues, not only on commercial issues, but also about the values we want to see developing on the continent.
03:36So you do believe that transatlantic relationship has to be upheld?
03:40That is the future of Europe, or does it need to look elsewhere?
03:42You know, I'm quite sure that also, I mean, what would be the alternative for the U.S., if you think on the long term?
03:49I mean, it's quite clear that the best possible alliances for the U.S. is Europe.
03:55Or I don't see the alternative.
03:57I mean, if we just think in their perspective, what are they looking for?
04:01I mean, China, Russia, what would be stable in the long term?
04:05That's why I'm sure that it will remain a strong relation between U.S., North America, and Europe.
04:11But in this kind of stress test that we have now, we must be confident and clear and strong.
04:17I want to pivot to human rights.
04:19The European Convention on Human Rights is a real cornerstone of your institution.
04:23It is, it is.
04:24Is it facing a moment of reckoning?
04:28It is a living instrument.
04:29And when we see some tensions on the continent, when we see some tensions developing, it is absolutely logic.
04:36It is because it is an instrument that counts.
04:37It is logic that we have also some discussions about the system of the conventions, about what we want to develop together.
04:45You know, this European Convention on Human Rights, it is a major achievement of European societies over centuries.
04:53Really, you probably mentioned the discussion on migration.
04:55Migration, you know.
04:56It is an issue, it is a concern in the majority of member states.
05:02It is then logic that we are able to take this.
05:05But we need to be able to do this properly and to channel this discussion for making it productive.
05:13So, to be concrete, nine EU countries have called on the court to review how it interprets the Convention.
05:23You say it is a living instrument.
05:26Does that mean it is open to reinterpretation?
05:28I think it is clear that migration is an issue and a concern in the majority of the member states.
05:35And if it is a concern, it is logic, only logic, that we are able to have some platforms where it is possible to address this at the political level.
05:43But I was clear with this intervention, this letter, the way they choose to act is wrong.
05:48It is not possible and not good to start making political pressure on the court.
05:52What would you say if, well, when a tribunal in a country is taking a decision, if it is not in the sense what the governor was expecting,
06:03that the government will make a pressure and say, please change your decision.
06:06It is not okay.
06:07It is not the way we want to see rule of law implemented.
06:10We should have the courage to start a political discussion and then to see what happens.
06:14And that's why, while I was really clear about the methods, it is wrong.
06:18But the concern is real and we need to address this in a positive and productive way.
06:24And what is productive?
06:25It is to have this discussion back in Strasbourg and it is then to have this discussion at the political level.
06:30And that's exactly why we organized in December, on my invitation, a ministerial conference on this issue at the Committee of Ministers of the Council of Europe.
06:39But the result in terms of the reinterpretation of the convention, do you still see that as a possibility as things stand now?
06:47I think, you know, I mean, the member states need to decide.
06:49What I see at the moment, there is no consensus at all about the fact that we should do steps further than to start with a political discussion,
06:58to prepare, you know, a statement and a clear position of the Council of Europe.
07:02We need to find, as far as possible, you know, a consensus for this and then to see what will happen with it.
07:09And do you feel this could be a slippery slope in terms of reopening these basic concepts within the convention?
07:16I mean, you know, what we are doing now will be really, well, extremely observed.
07:23I mean, what will happen now with migration, it will be possible for other countries to make the same, to choose the same way,
07:31maybe to put in discussion all the rights.
07:34You know, I also told this to some of the exponents.
07:36They wanted to have migration discussed.
07:38And I was just telling them, okay, at the political level, but we must be really careful because we have maybe all the countries
07:45ready to open the same kind of discussion on the rights.
07:48And maybe then we won't agree about this.
07:51Your institution also has a very prominent role in establishing the Special Tribunal for Crimes of Aggression against Ukraine,
07:58along with the European Union and Ukraine itself.
08:01How important is it for you that those responsible for these crimes are eventually, they're tried before a court of law?
08:09When you have an aggression, there is an accountability.
08:12When you have destruction and suffering, there is accountability.
08:15And at the Council of Europe, it is where we really have a strong added value supporting Ukraine,
08:19with the European Court on Human Rights, addressing every day thousands of cases of violations of human rights
08:25in the case of the conflict in Ukraine.
08:27We have now the Register of Damage and the Claims Commission for Reparation.
08:32And the third pillar, I would say, is the Special Tribunal.
08:35I had the privilege to sign with President Zelenskyy an agreement on this.
08:39Now we are preparing, but we really need to make some progress and to have countries,
08:44there is the need to have a political will to join those instruments about accountability.
08:49You mentioned the political will.
08:51Is it also certain that countries are willing to contribute financially to this?
08:59Are you facing problems in getting the money?
09:00It is never certain, you know.
09:02I mean, we need to make some progress.
09:04And it is exactly the role that we have.
09:06We need to start not thinking about the next steps too far.
09:12We need to think about the next step and the step after, but not the...
09:17And what are the immediate next steps?
09:18And at the moment, the next step, we have now the funding from the European Union,
09:2210 million for organizing all the legal framework, you know, organizational issues, logistics, all things.
09:31We have a so-called advanced team doing this right now.
09:35And we will be ready to have then states joining.
09:39But now we need also to have, well, clear views on the costs, budgets, to have clear support for the budget,
09:47because the Council of Peace definitely not able to do this.
09:50I mean, it's much bigger than we are.
09:52Doesn't this concept of accountability need to have more of a focus in the ongoing peace talks, do you think?
09:59I think there is clear that it is part of the whole discussions.
10:03Maybe not always in a positive sense, by the way, but it is part of the...
10:07What do you mean by that?
10:07I just observed that in the first so-called peace plan in 28 points,
10:12one point was not about accountability, but about impunity.
10:16That's not a positive development, you know, to have this discussion.
10:18But it underlines that it is part of the whole discussions.
10:21And our role, I think, is to make this link between the rule of law, democratic values,
10:27it is linked with responsibility, and where there is responsibility, there is also accountability.
10:32That is exactly what we promote.
10:35Finally, just your thoughts on Iran, because we have talks now between Tehran and Washington to defuse the tensions there.
10:43How important are these talks, also for Council of Europe, members who are neighboring countries of Iran?
10:48I mean, for us, it is really important on two different elements.
10:51The first element, it is not possible to be in favor of democracy and freedom of speech and freedom of, you know, demonstration,
11:00and then to see what's happening here and not to think it is a terrible, horrible tragedy.
11:07And the rights that we are promoting for the 46 members of the Council of Europe are the same that we are,
11:13that we should also promote in the rest of the world.
11:16Second point is about the regional stability.
11:18We have at the Council of Europe three countries with borders with Iran.
11:23And we have also an interest, it is also in our interest, in the interest of the member states,
11:28to be really aware about what's happening and to work on this stability,
11:31because this stability, at the end of the day, is the only thing we can really do in favor of populations.
11:39And why are we doing all this?
11:42It's not for ourselves.
11:43We are doing this because we have populations living on the continent,
11:47and with the right to have perspectives, stability, and good possibilities for their own development,
11:52for their families, for companies, and for the countries.
11:55Alain Berset, thank you so much.
11:56Thanks.
11:57Thank you.
11:58Thank you.
11:58Редактор субтитров А.Семкин
Comments