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00:00Welcome to the Kemp Politics Show on KMTV, I'm Rob Bailey.
00:28Coming up later, will business rape relief keep the taps flowing in Kent's pubs?
00:33But first, could Kent Police be replaced with a regional megaforce?
00:38The government this week released plans for major reform of policing in England.
00:42A three-tier system would include an FBI-style national force,
00:46regional HQs dealing with major crime and neighbourhood officers for the rest.
00:51The current 43 police officers could be reduced to just 12 forces,
00:55including one spanning the south from Sheerness to Southampton.
01:00Here's what Herne Bay and Sandwich MP Roger Gale said in Parliament this week.
01:05Sir Roger Gale.
01:07Thanks, Madam Deputy Speaker.
01:09Kent is one of the largest counties in the country.
01:12It faces very significant geographic challenges,
01:15with the Channel Tunnel,
01:18the largest port of entry into the United Kingdom, Dover,
01:20a Manston airport that is likely to reopen,
01:23and of course a small matter of illegal migration across the Channel.
01:28I cannot see, Madam Deputy Speaker,
01:30how a policing area that I understand will stretch from Banbury and Oxfordshire
01:35to Herne Bay on the North Sea coast,
01:38and Sandwich on the Channel coast,
01:40will be policed effectively and locally,
01:43as it currently is.
01:44Madam Deputy Speaker,
01:47I am, I think,
01:49certainly one of the only members of this House
01:51who has held a warrant as a serving police officer.
01:55I understand very well indeed
01:57the needs...
01:58I did say one.
02:01I understand the needs,
02:03only too well,
02:05for policing to keep pace
02:06with the same tools that are used by the criminals.
02:09But could the Home Secretary tell the House
02:12whether or not this plan
02:14has the confidence of the Constabulary?
02:17And here with me in the studio
02:19is Labour's Alex Patterson,
02:20portfolio holder for Community Safety and Midway Council,
02:23and Liberal Democrat Ben Martin,
02:25who sits on Swell Council and Faversham Town Council.
02:28Welcome, and thank you for joining me.
02:30Alex, obviously there's been a lot of reaction to this plan.
02:33This is something that would come in in 2034.
02:35Matthew Scott, the current Police and Crime Commissioner,
02:37on his way out, obviously, as all of them are,
02:40warned of a separation between police forces
02:42in the areas they served
02:43and said it could create a policing
02:44which is faceless and soulless.
02:47Do you think that this is the right policy
02:48for Kent and Midway?
02:50I think that the model for policing currently
02:53isn't so much focused around constabulary areas,
02:57but around divisions anyway,
02:58and I don't think there's any proposal for that to change.
03:02If you look at the level of replication,
03:04at sort of top brass level in the forces in our region
03:08and just outside it,
03:10in Kent you've got a chief constable,
03:13a deputy chief constable,
03:14and four assistant chief constables.
03:16That's replicated in Sussex, exactly the same.
03:20In Surrey, I think they've got six assistant chief constables.
03:24I'm not sure that at a day-to-day level,
03:26neighbourhood policing would change all that much
03:29if we actually had one chief constable
03:32and one set of top brass for a larger region.
03:35Ben, one of the things that has been very frequent
03:39in the reactions to this
03:41has been thinking about how these new regions
03:43would be kind of so diverse
03:45and that that could mean that attention
03:48is kind of pulled towards the bigger urban areas
03:50with more complex crime,
03:51away from more rural areas.
03:53We've seen various parts of the country,
03:54people saying rural crime in particular
03:56could be overlooked and all this.
03:58You are in quite a rural area in Favishim.
04:00Is that a concern that you think you would have?
04:02I think there's still a lot of detail
04:04that needs to be ironed out.
04:06Certainly, I welcome the idea
04:07of a more focus on neighbour policing.
04:10I've read the Home Secretary's letter
04:12that's gone out to the police forces and the unions
04:15and that says very clearly that it's about working with.
04:18That is a key element.
04:19It has to be a case of working with police officers
04:22and forces on the ground
04:23to make sure that what develops is right and suitable.
04:27I think when you look at it,
04:28policing hasn't really reformed since the 60s.
04:31Crime has changed an awful lot,
04:34the way crimes occur.
04:36We're already working quite closely in Kent Police
04:38with Essex Police, for example, on forensics.
04:41Certainly, following some events over the last few months,
04:45I had Kent Police out to my property.
04:49The items they took went off to Essex for processing.
04:52So, in terms of that top level,
04:54it makes sense to have an element of regionality.
04:57But we have to make sure that there is a focus
04:59on neighbourhood policing
05:00and that we maintain our rural task force.
05:02It's a tricky balancing act.
05:04Let's see what comes out
05:05following the Home Secretary's request
05:09to work with the police forces.
05:10This feels like a kind of familiar discussion
05:13where you spent quite a lot of time on the show
05:14recently talking about local government reform
05:16and the idea that democracy is something
05:17that we're now buying in bulk.
05:19You know, that there are huge kind of areas,
05:22Kent now being a single unitary authority
05:24if Kent County Council gets its way, for example.
05:27Do you worry about a loss of accountability?
05:30I mean, you're saying about the fact
05:31that it has to be done in partnership with communities.
05:33But as we scale up, doesn't that get harder, Alex?
05:36I think at the moment it would be wrong
05:38to think that we have anything
05:40other than an asymmetrical policing system in England anyway.
05:45You look at a force like Kent,
05:46which covers a population of nearly 2 million people.
05:49You also have a force like Cleveland,
05:51which covers a geographical area
05:53a sixth of the size of Kent
05:56and a quarter of the population.
05:58And they have their own issues
06:00in terms of being able to do things at scale.
06:04I think that, you know,
06:05the issues of rural versus urban
06:08are, in a way, a red herring
06:12when you look at the impact of things
06:13like county lines crime on the Medway towns.
06:17We are impacted not necessarily
06:19by criminals coming in from other parts of Kent,
06:21but from parts of London just up the road.
06:25So I think we need to stop thinking about things
06:27in terms of boundaries
06:28and accept that this model
06:30has already been adopted
06:31in a third of the landmass of Great Britain.
06:34Scotland has one police force now.
06:37And while I think there were initially teething problems,
06:40I think that that certainly has eliminated
06:42a lot of duplication.
06:43Yeah, in fact, people polled that Scotland modelled up
06:45as an example of how this can work,
06:47eight forces into one,
06:48and it's saving apparently £200 million a year.
06:51But, of course, opportunities,
06:53attempts to merge English police forces,
06:55for some reason, haven't been as successful.
06:57They tried it in Merseyside in Cumbria
06:59and it didn't work.
07:01Do you think that the Scotland model does translate?
07:03Well, I think that you need to adapt
07:06to modern times.
07:08And I think that, you know,
07:09certainly, as Ben said,
07:10the modern challenges of serious organised crime
07:14require a different approach.
07:16There's always going to be vested interests,
07:18as I've said.
07:18There's quite a lot of top brass officers
07:21who perhaps see the writing on the wall
07:23for their post if there are forced mergers.
07:26But from a general public perspective,
07:28I think we have to look at the benefits
07:31rather than the individual people
07:33who might miss out on bumper salaries.
07:35Ben, I'll bring you in on that.
07:37The timing of this,
07:38coming at the same time as local government reform,
07:40we're getting rid of police and crime commissioners.
07:43People will now be represented by fewer...
07:46No matter what model of LGL we get,
07:47fewer councillors per capita, effectively.
07:49Do you think that that kind of creates
07:52a bit of a democratic gap
07:54and people having an opportunity
07:56to have their say?
07:57It's certainly one of the questions
07:58that needs answering as this progresses.
08:02When you take a look at it,
08:03we don't know what LGL model we're going to get.
08:06How does this actually relate to devolution?
08:08Devolution said that we'd have metro mayors,
08:10essentially, and county mayors,
08:12however you want to word them.
08:12And those mayors would have the powers
08:14of a police crime commissioner,
08:15but we don't know whether we'll have one here in Kent.
08:17Exactly.
08:17And if that force is being represented,
08:20representing an area that is covered
08:21by three or four mayors,
08:23who's actually in charge?
08:25All of a sudden,
08:26you're asking a lot of questions at the same time.
08:28I understand the urgency
08:30to try and go for a national force.
08:32We have to learn the lessons
08:34from that implementation of Police Scotland.
08:37That proved to an extent
08:38that bigger isn't always better.
08:40We have to make sure
08:41that there is a concentration
08:42on neighbourhood policing.
08:44You know, the real way
08:45that you prevent crime
08:46and you deal with crime
08:47is having bobbies on the beat
08:48that know their beat.
08:50It's no good, for example,
08:52having an officer,
08:54even in Kent,
08:55if you have an officer
08:55that's based in Sevenoaks
08:57and knows Sevenoaks really, really well,
08:58and then they're transferred
08:59to Swale or Thanet,
09:01and they haven't got a clue
09:02about some of the street names,
09:04that in itself
09:05can cause some issues
09:07for the public in trust.
09:08So we have to make sure
09:09that that is managed really well,
09:12but we need to see the detail,
09:13and that's the real key.
09:15At the moment,
09:16it's a white paper.
09:17It hasn't been fleshed out fully.
09:19We need to see that detail,
09:20and it needs to be evidence-based.
09:22Alex, people are very aware
09:24of the bigger narrative here
09:25around a Labour government
09:26that is somewhat embattled
09:27at this point
09:28and under pressure
09:29from the Greens on one side
09:30and the reform
09:31and reform from the other.
09:32No-one's quite sure
09:33how long a Labour government
09:34will survive
09:35beyond this parliament.
09:37Is this a case
09:39of a Labour government
09:41trying to do too much
09:41all at once?
09:42We've got local government
09:43being reformed,
09:44police being reformed,
09:45in ways that do seem
09:46to rub up against each other
09:47and create friction
09:48with each other.
09:50Is Labour in too much
09:51of a rush to do too much?
09:52I think on this one,
09:53full disclosure,
09:54I used to work for Sarah Jones,
09:56now the policing minister,
09:57when she was the
09:58shadow policing minister,
09:59and I can say that
10:00the work on these reforms
10:02started a long time ago.
10:04This is not an idea
10:05that suddenly cropped up
10:06halfway through.
10:07a parliament.
10:09And I'm really confident,
10:11I know the sort of rigour
10:13with which she treated
10:14the sort of research
10:15into what is going on,
10:17best practice
10:17around the country.
10:19So no,
10:20I'm pretty clear
10:21that this is a consistent
10:22approach
10:23and this is part
10:24of a wider plan
10:26to both improve
10:28neighbourhood policing
10:29at a local level,
10:30but also to deliver
10:32those efficiencies
10:33both in local government
10:34reform and in policing.
10:36And efficiencies
10:37is always the key word
10:38here, isn't it?
10:39Kent Police's budget
10:40is around £540 million
10:42a year,
10:42about half of that,
10:43over half of that
10:44goes on officers.
10:45We're going to assume
10:46that that money
10:47is not going to be cut
10:48because that would be
10:49the one thing
10:50that would kind of
10:51go against the whole
10:51point of doing this.
10:52Where do you think
10:53the axe could fall?
10:54What kind of savings
10:56can be made
10:56from something like this?
10:58Certainly,
10:58I think Alex
10:59has pointed out already,
11:00we have an awful lot
11:03of chief constables
11:04and that's an area
11:05that could potentially
11:07face some cuts.
11:08But realistically,
11:10efficiency can't be
11:11a byword
11:12for lack of resource.
11:15Whatever happens,
11:16we have to make sure
11:17that the police forces,
11:18however they are
11:19brought forward,
11:21whichever mergers
11:22are occurred,
11:23however large they are,
11:24actually have the resources
11:25they need to do
11:26the work on the ground.
11:27We need to make sure
11:28that officers can be
11:29on their beats
11:30and not stuck behind desks.
11:31Again, in the letter
11:33that I saw from
11:34the Home Secretary,
11:35that is part of the idea
11:36is trying to reduce
11:37some of that paperwork
11:38that keeps officers
11:39off the beat.
11:41But we need the detail
11:42and that's going to be key.
11:44It's really difficult
11:45to challenge a policy.
11:47OK, thanks very much.
11:48That's all we've got time for.
11:49When we come back,
11:50will the government
11:50turn on business rates
11:52be the toast
11:53of Kent's leisure industry?
11:54Stay with us.
15:08Welcome back to the Kent Politics Show on KMTV.
15:11Next, pups and live music venues will get a 15% discount on business rates from April.
15:17It's a climb down by Chancellor Rachel Reeves, whose business rates reform was greeted with
15:21horror by hospitality firms last year.
15:23But the rebate won't be offered to hotels, restaurants or cafes.
15:27This week, we spoke to Lauren Edwards, the Labour MP for Rochester and Strood.
15:31But first, here's the reaction from John Warden at the Compass Ale House in Gravesend.
15:36Any help's a help.
15:39You can't get away from that.
15:41But any help that comes from somebody deciding what's going to help you rather than you telling
15:45them what's going to help you isn't that much of a help.
15:48So, yeah, there are things like reducing alcohol tax support with the business rates.
15:53Those kind of things do help.
15:55But the bigger picture is that the cost of everything has gone up so much that raising
16:00the business rates the way that the government have has just had a huge impact.
16:05We've all been swallowing the cost of energy crisis bills and that goes throughout the industry.
16:13I mean, I really welcome the fact that the government has listened to some of the concerns
16:18that I and other MPs have been raising with them around the impact on our local businesses
16:24and our local pubs.
16:25I am a bit disappointed that the government hasn't taken that further step and applied the
16:30full rate of relief that it had legislated for for other hospitality businesses and those
16:36in the retail and leisure space.
16:38So before I became an MP, I was very focused on regeneration in my area.
16:44And, you know, I know that diversity on our high streets is really, really key.
16:50Having different types of establishments on a high street to give different reasons for
16:56people to visit their high street is really, really important.
16:59So for me, although this is a really positive step in the right direction, there is more work
17:05done here to support those businesses who are going through that change as we move out of the
17:11COVID levels of support. And it's certainly something that I'll be working with my local
17:15business community to put additional pressure on the government to make sure that, you know,
17:20we're offering all the support that is available.
17:23And still with me is Alex Patterson of Medway Labor and Liberal Democrat Ben Martin from Fabersham,
17:28the home, of course, of Sheppard Neame. And we're talking about a rather embattled part
17:34of our economy here, the hospitality sector. About 40 pubs, according to some data I saw this week
17:40in Fabersham alone. But across the country, one pub a week, one pub every day closed in 2025.
17:48The Times did a very bleak projection based on the data and said if it keeps going at that rate,
17:53the last pub in Britain will close in 2050. Possibly a bit over Stark, but it's a sign that things are not
18:01well within that part of the industry. Do you think that the U-turn this week will be welcomed
18:05by the pubs in your area, Ben?
18:07Certainly. I spoke to the pub landlord last night, actually. They welcome the 15%. However, they've just had a rates
18:15valuation. So even with that 15% rebate, their rates are going up 139%. That's on top of the 40% increase
18:24in ingredients for their food since 2020, 30% increase in the cost of a barrel of beer.
18:29This is a free house, so they're getting lower rates anyway than a lot of pubs. In addition to that,
18:36you've had the NI increases, you've had the beer duty increases, 20%. It is putting an awful lot of pressure.
18:43We can't keep seeing hospitality as being this cash cow. On top of that, we've had the impacts of Brexit,
18:50£3,700 out of the pockets of British people, British families and households. They can't afford to go to the pub.
18:58You've also got the situation where the old days of your regular being Bob who comes in every day,
19:05five o'clock on the dot, reads the newspaper, two pints, goes home and then the next one's in.
19:10A long gone. Now you've actually got to spend money to attract people in.
19:14They're in a real dire position. That particular landlord tells me that they're now working 80 hours a week
19:20to reduce what they're spending on staff because they cannot afford it.
19:24The £6 pint. £6 for a pint at the moment. You can buy three pint-sized bottles in the supermarket for £6.
19:33Of that £6 pint, about 10 pence is the profit margin for most landlords.
19:38That particular pub has said they're probably going to have to raise that by 25p, 20p,
19:43and that's them still taking a hit and probably only making five or six pence on a pint.
19:48It is dire straits. What we really need is an emergency cut to VAT for the hospitality sector.
19:55Our suggestion is that you cut it by 5%, take it down to 15% as an immediate fix.
20:00You investigate whether or not there is opportunities to have a relief for small, medium businesses on the employer NI,
20:08whether you look at having a lower rate for part-time workers on employer NI to try and help the trade,
20:14along with a wider look at business rates and full reform. That's what we really need.
20:20Also, when you look at the list of areas that are exempt, hotels, cafes, restaurants,
20:27most pubs went to being dry-led a long time ago because wet-led pubs were closing.
20:33It's going to be down to each district to decide what is a pub.
20:39This is one of the areas of difficulty, isn't it?
20:42Pubs get the rebate, but if they're also a hotel and they're classed as a hotel, they don't.
20:47Alex, what Ben is describing is an industry that's under siege, isn't it?
20:51Absolutely, but to suggest that this is something that's happened in the last few months or the last couple of years is misleading.
21:00It's a long-term trend in terms of people changing their habits,
21:05moving away from going out to the pub through the week and, as Ben says, drinking at home or not drinking at all.
21:12So there are those challenges. I think what's happened here is also the reality has kicked in that the Covid era,
21:22the Covid era relief at some point has to stop. I think, you know, if we can agree on nothing else,
21:27we have to agree that that can't go on forever. And that's coincided with a revaluation, an independent rates revaluation,
21:39that has tied the Chancellor's hands, really, in a sense, because she's reduced the multiplier.
21:44It's a very complicated system, but she has reduced the multiplier.
21:47And yet, because of the 40% relief ending, people's bills have gone up.
21:53It's easy to describe it as a long-term problem, isn't it?
21:56But ultimately, Rachel Reeves made decisions in the budget last year,
22:00which the industry would say were kind of a final nail in the coffin.
22:03She didn't have to do that, did she? She could have gone a different way.
22:06This was a mistake, wasn't it?
22:08I think that the sort of, you know, there's a lot of talk about fiscal headroom,
22:13but actually just very basic wriggle room in the economy. It's pretty limited, actually.
22:18And you make adjustments here and there. And, you know, as I say, it's not a blunt instrument, business rates.
22:25It's a really complicated system. The valuations are independent, so the government has no control over that.
22:31The way pubs are valued is different from other businesses, which is why they have been hit particularly hard by this particular increase.
22:40So I'm glad that that 15% relief is being targeted.
22:45There is not an infinite pot of cash. Again, I think we'd have to agree that.
22:49And so we have to target that help in areas such as pubs, live music venues,
22:55who have also been really hit hard by sort of recent changes, not least Brexit.
23:02Touring musicians have been impacted by the complications and the ridiculous red tape and bureaucracy,
23:09which Nigel Farage's Brexit has introduced for that industry.
23:13So I think there's a real need for targeted help in those areas.
23:16And I'm really pleased that that has been forthcoming.
23:19Ben, this government has another sort of three and a bit years to run.
23:23I mean, obviously, we're in this path. We can see where this policy is heading.
23:27What are your fears about what Faversham's pub industry, for example, might look like at the end of that period?
23:33I fear that we're going to lose an awful lot more landlords and an awful lot more pubs.
23:38As you say, one a week closing in England and Wales alone, many being lost to development.
23:44I think in Kent last year, we lost 20 odd by June. That's not sustainable.
23:49Those are the jobs that people start out in. They become careers for people.
23:54Those are skills that we're currently lacking.
23:56I think when you look at it, yeah, we've mentioned the Brexit word.
24:00Brexit's costing us 250 million a day on our economy.
24:04That is what the OEC say.
24:07You then have a look at what it's costing in tax revenue.
24:0990 billion pounds of tax revenue a year lost because we're not part of the EU
24:15and we're not part of the customs union.
24:17Perhaps it's time for the government to take a look.
24:20We saw it when the Lib Dem MPs put forward the motion to rejoin,
24:26that that actually had some support.
24:28Let's start off with going back for a customs union with Europe.
24:32We've seen on the international stage what's happening.
24:34We need close relationships with our biggest trading partner.
24:38That is part of the solution.
24:40Ben, one of the things we've learnt from the rise of reform over the last year or so
24:43is that there are a lot of people out there who would very strongly disagree with that as a solution, aren't there?
24:48That may be, but you've got to look at the facts as they are.
24:51We've seen it in many aspects.
24:53Some people don't like facts.
24:55They like to look at what they see or what they perceive,
24:59but you have to take the facts as they are.
25:01We are poorer being outside of Europe.
25:04We are paying the price for being outside Europe,
25:06both in terms of our international prestige to an extent,
25:10our diplomatic position.
25:11We're in a weak position when it comes to dealing with the likes of Trump on the international stage.
25:16We're weak on trade and it's affecting our businesses and our households now.
25:22We need to put that money back in people's pockets.
25:23If I can bring it back to the hospitality sector, I wanted to ask you specifically about theatres
25:27because they are also excluded from this.
25:29Chatham has two, one of them under redevelopment at the moment.
25:32There are organisations like the Society of London Theatre saying that they are also a part of our economy
25:38under siege, warning of closures and job losses.
25:41Do you worry about the future of Chatham's theatres and the money that the Council is spending to restore the brook,
25:47which will emerge into a very changed environment, won't it?
25:50Specifically, the redevelopment of the Brook Theatre, I think, is a massive boon for Chatham and the whole of Medway.
25:58I think that despite the fact that the environment for the entertainment and hospitality industry is challenging,
26:05I think that is a good thing for the area.
26:09Look, you know, you can look at these things through a sort of telescope,
26:14whatever way around you want to look at it, and as narrowly as you like,
26:18there will always be winners and losers in any budget because, as I say, there is not an infinite pot of cash.
26:24But what I think the government is trying to do is tread that middle ground.
26:31You know, it's being pragmatic and the things that Ben's saying about trying to work back from the disastrous Brexit that was delivered by...
26:41We have to end there. I'm very sorry. That's all we've got time for.
26:44Thank you to both of my guests for joining me.
26:46Stay tuned for Kent tonight for all the latest news, and we'll see you next week.
26:52I'll see you next week.
26:57.
27:01.
27:03.
27:09.
27:10.
27:11.
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