- 13 hours ago
Category
📺
TVTranscript
00:00:50Hey, Father.
00:00:51How are you?
00:00:52I am good.
00:00:53How are you doing?
00:00:54Nice to meet you.
00:00:55Linford the legend.
00:00:57Legend.
00:00:58Yeah.
00:00:59Icon.
00:01:01That's what you are, man.
00:01:04Thank you for saying that.
00:01:05When was all that?
00:01:08That was a long, long time ago.
00:01:09I think it was in the 90s.
00:01:11Was it early 90s?
00:01:12Yeah.
00:01:13Yeah.
00:01:14Early to late 90s, early 80s.
00:01:16Fastest man in the world.
00:01:18Wearing shorts that didn't suit him.
00:01:22Yeah.
00:01:23I don't know.
00:01:24I think some of the ladies will disagree with you.
00:01:27Oh.
00:01:28I remember those.
00:01:30I mean, there was a no.
00:01:32awareness before the race of, this is, there's
00:01:37too much on show here.
00:01:38No.
00:01:39We don't think about anything like that.
00:01:40You know?
00:01:41I mean, the reason why, you know, I...
00:01:42war all those things like...
00:01:43There was a gentleman called Andy Norman.
00:01:45Yeah.
00:01:46He was like...
00:01:47You know, the promoter of our sport.
00:01:50And he said, you know, your line...
00:01:52You're not going up and everybody looks the same.
00:01:53Everybody's doing the same.
00:01:54So you have to do something where people will remember you.
00:01:57You know?
00:01:58And so, you know, I thought, well, let's try and, you know, try...
00:02:02and wear something that is totally different and stand out.
00:02:06For sure.
00:02:07That's what happened, man.
00:02:08So, erm...
00:02:12In terms of preparing for a race, the...
00:02:17100 metres where it's so...
00:02:18It happens so quickly.
00:02:22Do you almost have to get yourself in a zone where you're not thinking?
00:02:27I think the only time you don't think...
00:02:29Well, for me anyway, when...
00:02:30Is when...
00:02:32You're getting ready...
00:02:33The actual race.
00:02:34When they say on your marks, then you have to clear your mind, clear everything.
00:02:37But, you know, before then, I mean, it's a lot of psychology in...
00:02:42Sprinting.
00:02:43So, it's...
00:02:44People believe that it's like you've got to be the...
00:02:47fastest, but it's not necessarily that way.
00:02:50It's the guy who's got it.
00:02:52There's a lot more out there.
00:02:53You have to psych out your opponents and...
00:02:54You know, it's...
00:02:55It's...
00:02:56It's...
00:02:57It's one of these things where everybody you're racing against, they put you in a room,
00:03:01which is called the call room.
00:03:02Yeah.
00:03:03So, you get to see your opponent.
00:03:04You get to watch and walk around, and I think that's where...
00:03:07The race is won or lost in there.
00:03:09So, yeah, we play games and mind games, and so you have to be...
00:03:12Pretty strong in the mind, you know, to go out there and do it.
00:03:15So, it's kind of based on...
00:03:17Fear, is it?
00:03:18It make them afraid or something?
00:03:19Well, we're all afraid.
00:03:20We just make the next guy...
00:03:22I believe that he's more afraid of you than you are of him.
00:03:26Wow.
00:03:28How old do you know?
00:03:29I am 65.
00:03:31And...
00:03:32Is there like a...
00:03:33The Olympics...
00:03:34For...
00:03:35LAUGHTER
00:03:37They call them masters.
00:03:38I'm not quite sure why.
00:03:40But, yes, I mean, there is...
00:03:42There's meets.
00:03:43There's meets.
00:03:44And your marks get set in your own time.
00:03:46LAUGHTER
00:03:47It's a bit like that.
00:03:48You know, one of my friends, you know, a coach, he once says, they are the...
00:03:52People who train harder to run slower.
00:03:56Because that's what...
00:03:57That's what it is.
00:03:58When you get older, you run slower.
00:03:59But they train...
00:04:00Some of those masters athletes, they train...
00:04:02Harder than the mainstream youngsters.
00:04:04It takes more effort to...
00:04:06It takes more effort to...
00:04:07To run.
00:04:08I would assume so.
00:04:09More pain.
00:04:10So...
00:04:11If you were to run 100 metres...
00:04:12Now...
00:04:13How long would it take you?
00:04:14Er...
00:04:15I mean, it would take me a long time.
00:04:16Because I would...
00:04:17I would never do it anymore.
00:04:18You know, I'm just one of these people that...
00:04:20I don't run at all.
00:04:21I don't...
00:04:22I can't jog...
00:04:23Or anything.
00:04:24I go in the gym and I'll do...
00:04:25You know, a bit of weights.
00:04:26I do a little circuit.
00:04:27But to run.
00:04:29No chance.
00:04:30No chance.
00:04:31Why not?
00:04:32Because...
00:04:33I've had the mindset...
00:04:34If I can't be the best in the world...
00:04:35What's the point?
00:04:36What's the point?
00:04:37And I'll never ever be the best again.
00:04:39So...
00:04:40There's no point in...
00:04:41Going out there and also...
00:04:42A lot of people...
00:04:43Who've never competed before...
00:04:45Who've started competing in the...
00:04:46You know...
00:04:47The master athletes.
00:04:48Then...
00:04:49It's a great opportunity for them to...
00:04:51You know...
00:04:52To get the Curtis of...
00:04:53You know...
00:04:54The Bet Linfords.
00:04:55Yes, we beat them.
00:04:56And a lot of them could.
00:04:58How...
00:04:59How unusual are you...
00:05:01Physically...
00:05:02I know that...
00:05:03In comparison to other athletes...
00:05:05You're all of...
00:05:06A similar...
00:05:07Kind of...
00:05:08Disposition.
00:05:09But...
00:05:10In terms of the general population...
00:05:12What sets you apart physically?
00:05:14I...
00:05:15I...
00:05:16Whoa...
00:05:17That's...
00:05:17That's a really good question.
00:05:18I've never been asked that before.
00:05:19I've never thought of it.
00:05:20What sets me apart?
00:05:22I mean...
00:05:23I'm not sure physically...
00:05:24It's...
00:05:25It's mental...
00:05:26More than anything else.
00:05:27I think...
00:05:28The mental aspect of...
00:05:29You know...
00:05:30Being a competitor...
00:05:31And going out there...
00:05:32So...
00:05:33Regardless...
00:05:34You know...
00:05:35Not being...
00:05:36Not having...
00:05:37F***ing...
00:05:37Fair...
00:05:38Of anything...
00:05:39And...
00:05:40You know...
00:05:41Not believing anyone's better than me.
00:05:42I think it's mentally...
00:05:43I'm...
00:05:42A little bit different from...
00:05:43You know...
00:05:44The others more than anything else.
00:05:45Because we all...
00:05:46We all...
00:05:47Train the physical...
00:05:48But it's the mental that...
00:05:49A lot of people don't train...
00:05:50And that's where...
00:05:51Yeah.
00:05:52You know...
00:05:53I get my advantage.
00:05:54And I think it's just...
00:05:55You know...
00:05:56Once you go through...
00:05:57You know...
00:05:57Or races...
00:05:58And you lose...
00:05:59Or...
00:06:00Whatever.
00:06:01And you realize...
00:06:02You know...
00:06:03Why is it that they...
00:06:04the experience and everything else you know that's going to help you I mean for
00:06:09an example
00:06:09I run in my eyes really wide and you know just keep focusing and
00:06:14that came about because I went to the world championships in 91 and I ran the
00:06:19full fastest
00:06:19time in the world didn't have a medal or anything to show for it and so
00:06:24I had to think of a way that would you know make me me better
00:06:29and so you know because for example I thought I was running really well
00:06:34until Carl Lewis came
00:06:34on my shoulder and then you start going really tight so I had to do something
00:06:39where I couldn't see people so I thought about getting blinkers like horses I
00:06:44thought
00:06:44so many different things and so I was training one day
00:06:48when I realized if I
00:06:49open my eyes really wide I can blur out everything in my peripherals anything
00:06:54at all
00:06:54and so I thought oh this you know maybe what I'm trying to look for and so
00:06:59you know I started doing it and it it really worked
00:07:01I I've I have a
00:07:04memory of you like that with your the kind of
00:07:07yeah the eyes
00:07:09yeah and then your balls hopping
00:07:11from time to time
00:07:12from time to time
00:07:14I I I I never saw that I was looking at my form that way I didn't see that
00:07:19do they ever slow you down your testicles
00:07:21well I mean I was fast and I've always had them so
00:07:23well I mean I was fast and I've always had them so
00:07:24yeah
00:07:26yeah
00:07:27yeah
00:07:28yeah
00:07:29yeah
00:07:30yeah
00:07:31were you ever done for Drunks?
00:07:32oh I was indeed yes they banned me for Nanjula
00:07:34which didn't know what Nanjulone was until they banned me from it, so it just...
00:07:39I think there was a spate at the time where there was a lot of...
00:07:44contamination, because the people make vitamins and everything else, also the same people that make...
00:07:49you know, make drugs. And in our sport, you can... Vicks, you can get...
00:07:54Vicks, you can get banned from Night Nurse, Day Nurse, so many different things.
00:07:59If you rub Vicks on a Greyhound's anus, it runs faster.
00:08:02Oh, is that right?
00:08:04Maybe, maybe... Now you're telling me.
00:08:09Maybe that's why your eyes look wide like that.
00:08:12It's burning.
00:08:14I don't know. Is that true?
00:08:18It might be.
00:08:19It sounds like it could be true.
00:08:23So...
00:08:24So when were you banned?
00:08:27Oh, after I...
00:08:29I retired.
00:08:30Yes, at the end of my career, after I retired.
00:08:34You know, they said I was taking that drone.
00:08:37Which is...
00:08:38It's a...
00:08:39It's one of those things.
00:08:40They're absolutely crazy, I know, but...
00:08:42It's one of those things you have to...
00:08:44You know, you can't fight because, to be honest, 99% of the time you can never win.
00:08:50Against the accusation?
00:08:51Yes, you can never win.
00:08:52You know, and I always say...
00:08:54Your friends don't need an explanation.
00:08:56Your enemies will never believe you.
00:08:59So...
00:09:00You know, someone once said to me, you're lucky it came at the end of your career rather than...
00:09:04You know, in the middle of your career.
00:09:06Mmm.
00:09:07Were you in that race that...
00:09:09Ben Johnson won?
00:09:10I was indeed.
00:09:11I was third in that race.
00:09:12I was promoted to second.
00:09:14You know, so that was my first...
00:09:17My first Olympics.
00:09:18So for the people who...
00:09:19I don't know...
00:09:20That was the race that they ended up calling the dirtiest race in the world.
00:09:22I...
00:09:23You know, and again...
00:09:24You know, I...
00:09:25Sometimes...
00:09:26I think that's just an horrible thing to say.
00:09:29And it's definitely not true.
00:09:30I'm sure there's things that's worse than that.
00:09:33But unfortunately...
00:09:34You know, this is what they're labelling it as and...
00:09:38You know...
00:09:39I think that's a little bit too harsh on that.
00:09:41So for maybe people who don't know, it was...
00:09:43Uh...
00:09:44Ben Johnson was first.
00:09:46Was Karl Lewis second?
00:09:47Karl Lewis was second.
00:09:48I was third.
00:09:49Yes.
00:09:49I can't remember...
00:09:50Bush.
00:09:51Anybody else.
00:09:52But it was kind of like they started doing the single...
00:09:54Everybody on that...
00:09:55In that race has been proven to be on something.
00:09:57But then why didn't I ban everybody?
00:09:59Mm-hmm.
00:10:00You know?
00:10:01And this is the problem.
00:10:02Can you remember getting the...
00:10:04Because it was about two or three days later when Ben Johnson's story broke.
00:10:07Oh.
00:10:08Yes.
00:10:09I remember...
00:10:09I remember that like it was yesterday.
00:10:11You know?
00:10:12And...
00:10:13You know?
00:10:14It's just one of those things he...
00:10:14You know?
00:10:15It was unfortunate and he did it.
00:10:16And...
00:10:17Again...
00:10:18The story...
00:10:19It's come out that he said...
00:10:20What they banned him for wasn't what he was taking and everything else.
00:10:23So...
00:10:24You know?
00:10:24You'll never ever know...
00:10:25You know?
00:10:26The truth about it.
00:10:27Yeah.
00:10:29Um...
00:10:30Did you get married and have children or anything like that?
00:10:32No, I'm not married at all.
00:10:33Not...
00:10:34You know?
00:10:35I've got some great kids.
00:10:36Love my kids.
00:10:37But none of them do the...
00:10:39Yeah.
00:10:40Which is unfortunate.
00:10:41Because...
00:10:42You know...
00:10:43You know?
00:10:44I think it's the comparison.
00:10:45You know?
00:10:46What did they say?
00:10:47Comparison is a thief of joy or whatever it is.
00:10:48Sure, yeah.
00:10:49Yeah.
00:10:50And so...
00:10:51And that's what it is.
00:10:52You know?
00:10:53Because...
00:10:54People would say,
00:10:55Oh, you're good, but you're not...
00:10:54You're not as good as your dad.
00:10:55And...
00:10:56I think it's not...
00:10:57It's a very hard burden for...
00:10:59Any youngster to...
00:11:00Carry around.
00:11:01Because you want to...
00:11:02You want to be...
00:11:03You know?
00:11:04I always say to people,
00:11:05Don't...
00:11:04Don't try to be like me.
00:11:05Try to be better.
00:11:06And it's just...
00:11:07You know?
00:11:08The...
00:11:09That's pressure, though.
00:11:10That sounds like a lot of pressure.
00:11:11It is.
00:11:12Better than Linford Christie.
00:11:13Jesus, like.
00:11:14But life is...
00:11:14One big pressure.
00:11:15You know?
00:11:16Life is one big pressure.
00:11:17And you've got to cope with it.
00:11:18And unfortunately, some people just...
00:11:19Not cut out to do it.
00:11:20But...
00:11:21You know?
00:11:22They're academic, which is...
00:11:23You know?
00:11:24I think a little bit better.
00:11:26And...
00:11:27They are...
00:11:28Great people.
00:11:30Where did the idea that life is pressure come from?
00:11:33Yeah...
00:11:34Well, because...
00:11:35I mean, that's what it is.
00:11:36You know?
00:11:37You cross...
00:11:38You know?
00:11:39The pressure is there.
00:11:40It's a competition.
00:11:39You cross the road and...
00:11:40It's between you and the car or the bus that's coming.
00:11:42No, it's not between you and the car.
00:11:43Oh.
00:11:44Of course it is.
00:11:45If you get there slower, then you're in trouble.
00:11:46So...
00:11:47Jesus.
00:11:48No wonder you're not married.
00:11:49You know?
00:11:50That's what I say.
00:11:51You know?
00:11:52You've got to survive.
00:11:53And that's what it is.
00:11:54It is.
00:11:55It's survival, isn't it?
00:11:56Life is survival.
00:11:57There's so many things thrown at you.
00:11:59Through life.
00:12:00If you don't survive...
00:12:01You know?
00:12:02You sink.
00:12:03So, sink or swim.
00:12:04That sounds too...
00:12:08Liam.
00:12:09Not aggressive, but it sounds too heightened.
00:12:13Maybe it's just...
00:12:14There are sports people that think that way then.
00:12:16You know, that's what I think, you know, I go out in a race and...
00:12:19It's between me, the only people, the only thing I can't beat is the clock.
00:12:24You know?
00:12:24I can beat everybody else, but I can never beat the clock.
00:12:27And so, and that's what, you know, we're racing.
00:12:29We're racing against the clock more than the person.
00:12:33Did you have a sense...
00:12:34Did you have a sense growing up that you weren't good enough?
00:12:37I don't know.
00:12:38I mean, I had a sense growing up that...
00:12:39You know, you have to give it your best shot.
00:12:43You know, my parents always said, if you're going to do something...
00:12:44Do it to the best of your ability.
00:12:47And otherwise, don't do it at all.
00:12:49And I think that's what it was.
00:12:49And so, when I decided this is what I wanted to do, I wanted to, you know, be an athlete.
00:12:54And the choice was, do it to the best of your ability.
00:12:59Because you didn't want to go through life saying, if only, you know, I could have been.
00:13:04You know, if you try and you fail, then at least you've tried.
00:13:09Where did your parents come from?
00:13:12Because that almost sounds like...
00:13:14Do you think sometimes when immigrants arrive...
00:13:19In a country, and the odds are against them from the get-go?
00:13:24And sometimes from the parents to the children, there's this thing, you have to try harder than...
00:13:29Other people, because of the colour of your skin, or your accent...
00:13:34Or where we come from, or whatever.
00:13:38Was there that...
00:13:39Where did you...
00:13:39Where your mum did I come from?
00:13:40My mum came...
00:13:41We came from Jamaica.
00:13:42We're Jamaicans.
00:13:43And, you know...
00:13:44You know, my mum came here as a nurse.
00:13:46And, you know...
00:13:47I mean, my dad came...
00:13:49And the strange thing about all this was that...
00:13:52And the strange thing about all this was that...
00:13:54We were asked to come here.
00:13:55We were asked to come here.
00:13:56My parents were asked to come here.
00:13:57And when they got here...
00:13:59You know, they came to help build the country.
00:14:01After the war, you know, the Germans did a job with us.
00:14:04So, they were asked to come here to help build the country.
00:14:07Now, we've got to stop here.
00:14:08Because you keep saying here...
00:14:09UK.
00:14:10There.
00:14:11Came to the UK.
00:14:12Well, there, yes.
00:14:13There.
00:14:14Oh!
00:14:14You know, that's...
00:14:15Because we might be a lot of things here.
00:14:18But we're not...
00:14:19We're not them.
00:14:20We're not them.
00:14:21That's right.
00:14:22I got smiley for that one.
00:14:23Right here!
00:14:24Yeah.
00:14:25Yeah.
00:14:26So, I mean...
00:14:27So, yeah, they came to the UK.
00:14:28And...
00:14:29They...
00:14:30So, met most of the time with nothing but...
00:14:33Aust...
00:14:34Aust...
00:14:35Which...
00:14:36I suppose a lot of people couldn't understand why we came to help.
00:14:38And...
00:14:39Yeah.
00:14:40And then they...
00:14:41They were met with, you know...
00:14:42Hostility.
00:14:43But we were in good company.
00:14:44Because, you know, there are no blacks, no dogs, no Irish.
00:14:46Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:14:47You know?
00:14:48And...
00:14:49I think...
00:14:49The poor old dogs.
00:14:50Indeed.
00:14:51You know?
00:14:52They've got a label.
00:14:53They're still...
00:14:54They still can't get...
00:14:55The dogs can't get over it.
00:14:56You know?
00:14:57I used to say, I'm in...
00:14:58I'm as English as the Queen.
00:14:59That's...
00:14:59I...
00:15:00You know?
00:15:01That's...
00:15:02When people ask me, of course, I'm as English as the Queen.
00:15:03I'm British.
00:15:04And, you know...
00:15:04You drop me in the middle of Jamaica.
00:15:05I get lost.
00:15:06I will not know where to go.
00:15:07Drop me in the middle of London.
00:15:08Or middle...
00:15:09I...
00:15:09I will find my way around.
00:15:10Because I think I've spent more time living in the UK than I...
00:15:14I'm in Jamaica.
00:15:16I'm still, you know, Jamaican by...
00:15:19And there's a lot of narratives and everything else.
00:15:20Of course, yeah.
00:15:21Black people.
00:15:22We have to...
00:15:23Take...
00:15:24The country.
00:15:24you know we were born here we we've really you know we've lived there for years we were in school
00:15:29there and everything else so this is our country
00:15:34did you get invited to buckingham palace and stuff like that oh yes
00:15:39i mean the queen is like you know you know i don't know people
00:15:44agree sometimes with me but i love the queen you know and i was always
00:15:49brought up to treat people as you find them
00:15:54and every time i met the queen she was nothing but nice
00:15:58absolutely
00:15:59what stuff did she say to you i mean you know she always remembered me always
00:16:03remembered where she saw
00:16:04me in where we met and our conversation that we had and i went
00:16:09to uh silver jubilee and i was sitting on the table and
00:16:14you know the people on the table they weren't really talking to me and everything else
00:16:17and when she was leaving she broke
00:16:19and she came over and she said it's nice you know thank you
00:16:24people come in and it's nice but all of a sudden i became the most important person on the table
00:16:28and they say
00:16:29you know what did she say what did she say and i said did she tell you no then she didn't want you to know
00:16:34yeah but you know so every time i've met her she like i said she remembered me
00:16:39as she was you know and it's it's an odd act to follow i mean you know people say things about them
00:16:44and all that but i can only speak for how she treated me
00:16:50hmm you have a very lovely nature
00:16:52oh thank you
00:16:53you're there's a great
00:16:54sweetness to you and i'm
00:16:55you and i'm
00:16:56you
00:16:56and i'm
00:17:08but...
00:17:09i'm
00:17:10i'm
00:17:11i'm
00:17:12i'm
00:17:13i'm
00:17:15i'm
00:17:16i'm
00:17:17i'm
00:17:18You have to, you know, it's a show out there.
00:17:23You know, we're out there.
00:17:23And we, it's a show we have to be like that because can you imagine how people would think if I.
00:17:28You know, it's six foot two and, you know, I'll have a walk out there and I'm this little shy team.
00:17:33In person, then people, then, you know, people would walk all over you.
00:17:36So you never, you'll never win.
00:17:38You never win anything because so you have to go out there and you have to, you know, assert yourself and.
00:17:43You have to take charge and that's so when when I'm out there in the arena.
00:17:48You know, I'm a gladiator.
00:17:50I'm out there to, you know, it's.
00:17:53Lord of the Jungle.
00:17:56Can you.
00:17:58Describe to me the event.
00:18:03Describe to me the event of the hundred meters final in the Olympic Stadium that you won.
00:18:08Oh gosh, that was, you know, like I say, it's a bit daunting to be honest.
00:18:13I've been out there, but I knew, I knew I was going to win.
00:18:18There's just something.
00:18:18There's just something in me that I knew I was going to win and.
00:18:23You know, the scariest place in the world is coming through.
00:18:28They got a tunnel that takes you out into the track from the call room and it's coming through that tunnel.
00:18:34Out to the track.
00:18:36That is scary because you walk, you know, it's all quiet and everything.
00:18:38Apart from the athletes making noise and everything, trying to psych you out, but you don't hear anything.
00:18:43Walk out and.
00:18:48For.
00:18:48For that split second, you can hear a pin drop and then the crowd just goes absolutely.
00:18:53Loopy and they start to cheer for you, cheer for everybody else.
00:18:58And.
00:18:58I make believe that the only person they're cheering for is me.
00:19:03They're not cheering for anybody else.
00:19:05No one's come.
00:19:06They haven't come to see anybody else.
00:19:08They've only come to see me.
00:19:08And so you block everything else out and you walk out and then.
00:19:13There's a hush and nothing moves.
00:19:18All the other events stops for the hundred meters.
00:19:23It's.
00:19:23It doesn't stop for any other event by the hundred meters.
00:19:28And.
00:19:28And you realize this is battle.
00:19:33This is it.
00:19:33And you get on your marks and you and.
00:19:38You try to be the last one for psychological purposes.
00:19:43You.
00:19:43You don't want to be the first one down because everybody has to wait.
00:19:48You and so that's my thing is and you know, I get on the blocks and I.
00:19:53I close my eyes and now even before I close my eyes, I look.
00:19:58Right down the track to see where I'm going to go.
00:20:02Like, you know, keeping your eye on the price.
00:20:03Close my eyes and I take a breath and then.
00:20:08I hear nothing else.
00:20:11No, there's nobody here.
00:20:12I don't, you know.
00:20:13If my mum was in the race, we wouldn't even be talking.
00:20:17And once the gun goes.
00:20:18You, you go and you can't even halfway through.
00:20:23The race, you know, sometimes even if you're in the lead, you can't be thinking I'm winning because.
00:20:28If you start thinking I'm winning, I'm winning, that's when everybody will run past you because that's what we call the focus.
00:20:33You let your focus go, you have to keep your focus.
00:20:38You can't even breathe for the whole hundred meters.
00:20:41So you think in, you know, less than 10 seconds.
00:20:43Or, you know, 10 seconds.
00:20:46I hold my breath and you go through and.
00:20:48Once you've crossed the line, then you hear everything and you can't even stop on.
00:20:53The line because, you know, you're so happy you run, you keep running around and running around.
00:20:58And then reality hits you and you think, hang on, I run, I run further than I want.
00:21:03And then you start getting tired.
00:21:05But you, again, even up until then, you ask.
00:21:08To be brave and not let anybody, you want your opponents to think it's easy.
00:21:13So even though you're tired, you hold your breath and you walk, you know.
00:21:18Because they, you can't show any form of weaknesses at all.
00:21:23And then you look for your friends or whatever in the crowd.
00:21:27You know, it's all like someone.
00:21:28They turn down the volume and then you cross the line.
00:21:31They've turned it up and you hear everything.
00:21:33And then you look for someone with a flag or something that's going to throw it to you.
00:21:37And you realize that.
00:21:38That this is not just for you.
00:21:43It's just for you.
00:21:43You know, for your teammates, your coach, you know, your queen and the country and everything.
00:21:48This is the thing because the best part of all that.
00:21:53You stand on the rostrum when they play God Save the Queen.
00:21:58You stand on your national anthem and you realize there's people.
00:22:03All over the world, we have to stand and show respect to...
00:22:08your country, whether they like it or whether they, you know, like it or like you or whatever.
00:22:13But for that, however minutes they play the national anthem for.
00:22:18You, of course, people stand up, put hands on heart and do that.
00:22:22And there's not many people.
00:22:23There's not many people in the world that can do that.
00:22:28Wow.
00:22:28It's been lovely talking to you, Linford.
00:22:32Thank you very much.
00:22:33I've got to tell you, I really enjoyed it.
00:22:36That is one of the...
00:22:38I'm not even saying because you're one of the best interviews I've had because the questions are not...
00:22:43the typical questions.
00:22:46Thank you very much, my friend.
00:22:47Bless you, bless you, bless you.
00:23:03Freddie, who's next?
00:23:08Tommy.
00:23:08Our next guest is Keelan Gallagher.
00:23:13Keelan Gallagher.
00:23:18How are you?
00:23:19How are you?
00:23:20Nice to see you.
00:23:21Great now.
00:23:23That's...
00:23:23Even hearing you speak, that's a great Donegal name.
00:23:27Oh, it is a Donegal name.
00:23:28Get the f...
00:23:28I'm a Dubliner, but via Donegal, West Cork, Monaghan, a whole range of places.
00:23:32All right, are you on the run?
00:23:33Yeah, something like that, probably.
00:23:36What's your story, Keelan?
00:23:38So I'm a human writer.
00:23:38I'm a human rights lawyer, and then as part of my human rights work, I'm also Ireland's special rapporteur and child protector.
00:23:43And a campaigner on a whole range of human rights issues, and act for lots of individual...
00:23:48clients in human rights cases.
00:23:49Can you give me an example of one, or the type of work that it is?
00:23:52Yeah, of course.
00:23:53So a lot of my work is for journalists who are targeted for being journalists, so...
00:23:58I've acted for the family of Daphne Caruana Galicia, who was a journalist who was assassinated in...
00:24:03... in Malta in 2017, just for being a journalist.
00:24:06I act for a lot of journalists who are in prison.
00:24:08... around the world, so imprisoned, just for doing their job, for being journalists.
00:24:12But a really...
00:24:13I'm a very wide range.
00:24:14I also act for a number of the Hillsborough families.
00:24:18I act for a lot of the bereaved families and survivors of the 7-7 London bombings, for example.
00:24:23A really wide range of cases.
00:24:24And I also do quite a lot of work for Irish community in Britain.
00:24:28About Irish rights in Britain too.
00:24:29What's the difference between a human rights lawyer and an...
00:24:33lawyer yeah it's a good question it's one of those things where you know when my kids were very
00:24:38little if you were a doctor or a bus driver they would kind of get it whereas being a lawyer in
00:24:43itself is a bit of a complicated job for kids to understand and then
00:24:48rights law one of my kids said to me at one stage that I do sad law which is probably
00:24:53a good way of describing it you know I quite often work with people at a really terrible moment in
00:24:58their life
00:24:58when something's gone very badly wrong and really what your job is about is trying to
00:25:03make that a bit better so it's not really about guilt or innocence
00:25:08sometimes it is but quite rarely I mean in for example in the journalist's case
00:25:13is sometimes there is a criminal element about holding someone criminally
00:25:18accountable for what's happened so say the Malta case for example making sure that the people who
00:25:23actually set the bomb and were responsible are held criminally
00:25:28accountable but there's also a much wider issue about accountability you know how do you deal with
00:25:33the fact
00:25:33the fact that there was a culture of impunity which allowed a woman who was
00:25:38doing her job and doing her job brilliantly and to be killed in broad daylight
00:25:43in a European country
00:25:45so can you tell me about the particulars of that case
00:25:47the Malta case
00:25:48yeah
00:25:48yeah of course so um so Daphne was a remarkable remarkable
00:25:53woman who um when she was in her early 20s she became uh the first
00:25:58woman to write a column in her own name in Malta and she was often called Malta's conscience
00:26:03so I mean you look at a whole series of really brilliant pieces of investigative journalism
00:26:08over the years and that touched on Malta and touched on wealth and corruption in Malta they all have
00:26:13Daphne's fingerprints on them and um as a result she was targeted in a multiple
00:26:18simplicity of ways so for years she would be targeted by you know
00:26:23walking down the street uh she would be called a witch she uh was followed
00:26:28um family pets they had family pets killed including um one family pet
00:26:33uh which was pinned to a door a bloodied carcass pinned to a door just to
00:26:38warn her off um one stage one of her kids paul caroana gilatia her young
00:26:43youngest son who's now a brilliant journalist himself at the financial times when paul was very
00:26:48young he came home to find the house was on fire and had just been set on fire she was targeted
00:26:53in multiple ways but also at the time that she died she had 48 lawsuits pending against her
00:26:58so the people who she skewered in her reporting tried
00:27:03everything to silence her and then ultimately um in october 2017 16th of october
00:27:082017 the ultimate act of censorship she was assassinated and she was
00:27:13assassinated as retaliation for her work how was she assassinated
00:27:18so she was sitting at the kitchen table with her eldest son matthew caroana gilatia
00:27:23and they were working together matthew's also a journalist and they were working together and then she got
00:27:28into her car and then she got into her car and within about a minute matthew
00:27:33so she got intoifer you heard a noise and he he often says he knew instantly
00:27:38what it was like there was a sickening realization of what it was and he went
00:27:43outside and the car and the car had been blown up and
00:27:48as soon as i heard the story i just knew there were some things that they need
00:27:53to do very quickly so i immediately spoke to her three sons and we
00:27:58put together a plan and then we just started working together and then worked together for years
00:28:03and still do in fact i was just speaking to one of the sons just in the last couple of days
00:28:08and what did they
00:28:08want they wanted accountability at all levels so not just the foot soldiers
00:28:13also the people who had given the directions and the people who created that culture of impure
00:28:18community which essentially gave a green light to killing a journalist um but also they want
00:28:23to ensure that the world is safer for journalists going forward which is why i continue to campaign
00:28:28protect them three Conference pracy and after that i구�pen mieli all the time um but over the course
00:28:34die all the exactly all the time um but over the course of a number of years we
00:28:43ara m pleased to say
00:28:45so
00:28:45so
00:28:46you
00:28:47so
00:28:47you
00:28:47so
00:28:48you
00:28:49so
00:28:51you
00:28:52you
00:28:52you
00:28:55you
00:28:55you
00:28:55you
00:28:55you
00:28:56you
00:28:56you
00:28:56you
00:28:56you
00:28:58bomb or who directed it but the people who created that culture of impunity and that's something I
00:29:03see all the time in my work for journalists I mean we obviously have very powerful
00:29:08people in a range of places around the world who think it's okay to talk about
00:29:13journalists as being fair game I mean we very recently had the president of the United States
00:29:18describing Jamal Khashoggi's death the Saudi Arabian journalist for the one
00:29:23Washington Post who worked very closely with a lot of my friends at the Washington Post in Washington DC
00:29:28you know saying well things happen and describing him as someone who wasn't liked by a lot of
00:29:33people which to my mind is very dangerous language and gives the impression
00:29:38that the killing of a journalist can somehow be acceptable or understandable
00:29:43and the killing of a journalist is designed to kill the messenger to kill the mess
00:29:48and to kill the story and it's why one of the things I feel very strongly about it
00:29:53is trying to change the way in which we hold people accountable for deaths of journalists we've got
00:29:57to do
00:29:58better at that
00:29:58um
00:30:03it's kind of it's uh very disempowering yeah
00:30:08too
00:30:12to have seen
00:30:13too
00:30:13too
00:30:14to
00:30:17too
00:30:19to
00:30:19too
00:30:20to
00:30:21too
00:30:22to
00:30:23to
00:30:23to
00:30:24to
00:30:25to
00:30:13the president of the most powerful country in the world just...
00:30:18brush the journalistic inquiry into the Khashoggi thing.
00:30:23And it was on the same day, so you had part of it...
00:30:28It seemed to have a misogynistic tinge.
00:30:30It seemed to me that the way in which the journalist who asked the question...
00:30:33was dismissed and told she was a bad person and a bad journalist.
00:30:36And, of course, within the same 24 hours...
00:30:38you also had another female journalist who dared to ask him a question...
00:30:42being told...
00:30:43to quiet piggy.
00:30:44And some of the work that I do for journalists...
00:30:48does involve the targeting of women journalists in particular.
00:30:51So people like Daphne Caruana...
00:30:53Galicia, a lot of the language that was used...
00:30:55and the imagery that was used about her before her death.
00:30:58was very misogynistic, very sexist.
00:31:00I find the same for my client Maria Ressa.
00:31:03who's a journalist from the Philippines...
00:31:05who won the Nobel Peace Prize a few years ago.
00:31:07And a lot of the...
00:31:08imagery and the language that's used about her is extremely sexist.
00:31:11And it often plays on...
00:31:13a person's insecurities.
00:31:15So Maria, for example, has got...
00:31:17a person's insecurities.
00:31:18So Maria, for example, has got...
00:31:18she's got eczema, so her skin is a little bit dry...
00:31:20as indeed is mine.
00:31:22And...
00:31:23as a result a kind of meme went around...
00:31:25promoted by...
00:31:26some of the most senior politicians in the Philippines.
00:31:28describing her as scrotum face.
00:31:30And it's kind of dehumanising...
00:31:32in...
00:31:33the image of her, which is put around...
00:31:35and...
00:31:36I see real similarities between the images...
00:31:38I see in Daphne's case...
00:31:39and then the images...
00:31:40I've seen in Maria's case.
00:31:43Can you tell me about the...
00:31:44about the Maria case?
00:31:45Yeah, of course.
00:31:46So, um...
00:31:47Maria and...
00:31:48two of her colleagues...
00:31:49who are veteran female journalists...
00:31:50in the Philippines...
00:31:51decided a number of years ago...
00:31:52to set up...
00:31:53an organisation...
00:31:54a media organisation...
00:31:55under the Duterte regime.
00:31:57So they...
00:31:58was founded in 2016...
00:32:00when President Duterte was in power.
00:32:03and...
00:32:04it was designed...
00:32:05it's called Rappler...
00:32:06and it was designed...
00:32:07to speak truth to power.
00:32:08and to hold the powerful to account.
00:32:10Maria similarly...
00:32:11faced a whole series of different...
00:32:13lawsuits against her...
00:32:14and at one stage...
00:32:15she was facing over...
00:32:16a hundred years in prison.
00:32:18so I'm very privileged to...
00:32:20work for Maria...
00:32:21with a really brilliant...
00:32:22team...
00:32:23co-counselors...
00:32:24Amal Clooney...
00:32:25and...
00:32:26we have a really brilliant team.
00:32:28myself and Amal...
00:32:29and we got instructed...
00:32:30on our case...
00:32:31to work on the case...
00:32:32and do what we could...
00:32:33to try to keep her out of prison.
00:32:33so far...
00:32:34we've kept her out of prison...
00:32:35and...
00:32:36but she does have...
00:32:37a seven year sentence...
00:32:38hanging over...
00:32:38over her head...
00:32:39still...
00:32:40just...
00:32:41completely...
00:32:42tangential...
00:32:43have you met...
00:32:43George?
00:32:44I have indeed met George...
00:32:45as good looking in the flesh...
00:32:46as he is on telly...
00:32:47it's quite...
00:32:48I always...
00:32:49I find this a bit odd...
00:32:50just because they're...
00:32:51they're my friends...
00:32:52and Amal is also a colleague...
00:32:53and a really...
00:32:53brilliant...
00:32:54lawyer...
00:32:55and...
00:32:56I don't usually talk about them...
00:32:57just because...
00:32:58you know...
00:32:58they guard their privacy...
00:32:59very carefully...
00:33:00the first few times...
00:33:01I met him...
00:33:02it is a bit odd...
00:33:03because you...
00:33:04you're trying to just...
00:33:05have a normal conversation...
00:33:06then you find yourself thinking...
00:33:07oh my god...
00:33:08it's George...
00:33:08absolutely...
00:33:09but I've got over that now...
00:33:10now he's...
00:33:11now he's just my friend's husband...
00:33:12you know...
00:33:13who does some acting...
00:33:14on the side...
00:33:15oh...
00:33:16it's lovely...
00:33:17yeah...
00:33:18do you...
00:33:19how do you feel about the...
00:33:20the story...
00:33:21that...
00:33:22we have now...
00:33:23about...
00:33:24the amount of money...
00:33:25that the Saudi regime...
00:33:26is pouring...
00:33:27into...
00:33:28sports...
00:33:29and entertainment...
00:33:30and...
00:33:31tourism...
00:33:32and all that...
00:33:33and comedy...
00:33:33and...
00:33:34in terms of...
00:33:37trying to clean...
00:33:38their reputation...
00:33:39and to be seen...
00:33:40as something else...
00:33:41so...
00:33:42it really worries me...
00:33:43because...
00:33:44you obviously...
00:33:43we hear phrases like...
00:33:44sports washing...
00:33:45but we also see...
00:33:46more broad...
00:33:47culture washing...
00:33:48so...
00:33:49Saudi Arabia is a good...
00:33:50example of it...
00:33:51another place that does...
00:33:52a lot of it is UAE...
00:33:53so you suddenly...
00:33:53start having things like...
00:33:54comedy festivals...
00:33:55or literature festivals...
00:33:56that are on...
00:33:57and it's really to...
00:33:58bring states in...
00:33:59from being considered...
00:34:00pariahs...
00:34:01and to present them...
00:34:02as if their business is...
00:34:03as usual...
00:34:04and their safe places...
00:34:05to engage with...
00:34:06and then...
00:34:07what then ends up...
00:34:08happening is...
00:34:09they're...
00:34:10getting a little...
00:34:11accountability...
00:34:12for the...
00:34:13human rights violations...
00:34:14which are going on...
00:34:15so there's still...
00:34:16a huge number of people...
00:34:17who are detained...
00:34:18for being a journalist...
00:34:19for being a women's...
00:34:20rights campaign...
00:34:21for being a journalist...
00:34:22for being a women's...
00:34:23rights campaign...
00:34:23but it's very difficult...
00:34:24to see...
00:34:25MBS...
00:34:26have the red carpet...
00:34:27rolled out...
00:34:28and be welcomed...
00:34:28so he's...
00:34:29the crown prince...
00:34:30in Saudi Arabia...
00:34:31Mohammed bin Silan...
00:34:32or something...
00:34:33that's right...
00:34:34someone...
00:34:35yeah...
00:34:36but it's very difficult...
00:34:37to see the red carpet...
00:34:38being rolled out...
00:34:39for him...
00:34:38when...
00:34:39I see all the time...
00:34:40the other side...
00:34:41of what's happening...
00:34:42in Saudi Arabia...
00:34:43in Saudi Arabia...
00:34:48do you...
00:34:50have you...
00:34:51have you had encounters...
00:34:52with...
00:34:53a conversation...
00:34:53with Irish...
00:34:54politicians...
00:34:55over this?
00:34:56I have spoken...
00:34:57to Irish politicians...
00:34:58about...
00:34:58China...
00:35:01before?
00:35:02I mean...
00:35:03China...
00:35:03another good example of where there's a real craving of respectability and hiding.
00:35:08You kind of see me under town of what's in fact happening and actually I myself.
00:35:13I have been targeted because of my work on Jimmy Lye's case so and I'm an Irish national.
00:35:18Of course, and I have been pleased to get.
00:35:23Such good support internationally, including from the Irish in Geneva.
00:35:28And in New York at the United Nations, I have got very good support from them.
00:35:33Trying to hold the Chinese to account for what's happening to me.
00:35:36But they just seem so powerful and...
00:35:38Although, yeah, but I do think sometimes look...
00:35:43For many years I've got clients out of Iran or out of...
00:35:48China or out of Equatorial Guinea and I always hate when people sound a fetus, you know, and think...
00:35:53So my enemy's too big and you can't do it.
00:35:55And we've had very good support from Irish politicians on the Jimmy Lye...
00:35:58In my case, I'm pleased to say, and it's really important that Ireland does that and that Ireland speaks up because Ireland...
00:36:03I see all the time how well respected Ireland is internationally whenever I'm at the United Nations incredibly...
00:36:08very well respected Ireland's diplomats are very well respected and it's really important that we use our voice.
00:36:13Because we have a powerful voice internationally and we need to use it and we need to shout from the rooftops about these disgraceful...
00:36:18And in the world there are a powerful cases.
00:36:21Um, the...
00:36:22You've assessed from regarding theran.
00:36:23sense that you've been targeted?
00:36:28What does that do to you in terms of
00:36:33the work and your life?
00:36:36Yeah, it's been
00:36:38quite strange just because for many years
00:36:40I've had as my clients people who've
00:36:43been targeted and of course you get
00:36:46targeted to an extent when you do this work.
00:36:48It just goes with the territory.
00:36:49So, you know, when I travel to do some
00:36:52trial monitoring in Kuwait,
00:36:53a number of years ago I was detained for a while.
00:36:55Not for very long, but, you know, it was maybe
00:36:58about 10 hours in an airport.
00:37:00You know, devices taken away.
00:37:02Quite terrifying.
00:37:03You're not sure what's going to happen.
00:37:04You've got a plan, but then you suddenly
00:37:06get the adrenaline when it actually
00:37:07happens to you.
00:37:08But usually the way I've been targeted has been
00:37:10secondary.
00:37:11So, for example, every time I do a
00:37:13case against Iran, it is completely routine for
00:37:16Iran to try to hack...
00:37:18your email, to access your information.
00:37:21But it's all designed really with...
00:37:23the lawyer being the conduit for them to get the
00:37:25information they really want, which is about
00:37:26your client, about the journalists...
00:37:28the Iranian journalist, for example, or the Iranian
00:37:30women's rights campaigner.
00:37:31So I've had that where I've been...
00:37:33in the slipstream.
00:37:34I've been targeted in a secondary way.
00:37:36But what's happened over the last few...
00:37:38years is a little different.
00:37:39So because of my work on Jimmy Lai's case...
00:37:43I've unfortunately been targeted myself.
00:37:47And it's involved a few...
00:37:48different things.
00:37:49I mean, it started off with state media...
00:37:53in China calling me an enemy of the people...
00:37:55running these hit pieces describing me.
00:37:58as being anti-China, with photographs and
00:38:01details of my workplace and so on.
00:38:03That then moved to the Hong Kong authorities...
00:38:08threatening to prosecute me for representing my
00:38:10client before the United Nations.
00:38:13I then started getting a whole series of attacks online,
00:38:17which were often...
00:38:18coordinated.
00:38:19So on a day when...
00:38:21it was a very important day in the case.
00:38:23or when I was about to address the United Nations in Geneva,
00:38:25for example,
00:38:26I'd wake up at five in the morning...
00:38:28to hundreds of attempted hacks on my bank accounts,
00:38:32my emails, you know.
00:38:33multiple alert messages,
00:38:35and also a whole series of messages...
00:38:38threatening me.
00:38:39So kind of threatening me with...
00:38:40you know, death, dismemberment...
00:38:43a lot of them misogynistic...
00:38:45threats of rape and sexual violence...
00:38:48and that's obviously frightening.
00:38:50I've also had threats to my family...
00:38:52including...
00:38:53including to...
00:38:54my kids...
00:38:55what am I...
00:38:56sorry...
00:38:57including to...
00:38:58one of my kids...
00:38:59and...
00:39:00sorry...
00:39:01I never...
00:39:02normally get like this...
00:39:03and...
00:39:05to be honest...
00:39:06it makes me...
00:39:07more determined than...
00:39:08ever to do my job...
00:39:09because...
00:39:10I feel...
00:39:11if you're being targeted in this way...
00:39:13you're rattling the right cages...
00:39:15and...
00:39:16if they want to silence you this much...
00:39:17it's...
00:39:18because you're doing something right...
00:39:19so...
00:39:20erm...
00:39:21I...
00:39:22what kind of lawyer would I be...
00:39:23if I was frightened off by it...
00:39:24so...
00:39:25I'm not frightened off by it...
00:39:26and...
00:39:27it makes me...
00:39:28more determined than ever to do it...
00:39:29and the bottom line is...
00:39:30if I'm targeted this much...
00:39:31and if my family are targeted this much...
00:39:33erm...
00:39:34because of my work for Jimmy Lye...
00:39:35erm...
00:39:36it...
00:39:37it...
00:39:38it...
00:39:38it makes you realise how much they must hate him...
00:39:40hmm...
00:39:41erm...
00:39:42so this is now...
00:39:43a new tactic...
00:39:44a new tactic is...
00:39:45target the lawyers...
00:39:46because then you strip away...
00:39:48the support which people have got...
00:39:50erm...
00:39:51and I think it's more important than ever...
00:39:52that we speak...
00:39:53to speak out...
00:39:54hmm...
00:39:57I told you it was sad...
00:39:58no...
00:39:59it's not...
00:40:00I mean it's...
00:40:01we have to hear these stories...
00:40:02yeah...
00:40:03it's...
00:40:04erm...
00:40:05was it...
00:40:06erm...
00:40:07like...
00:40:08directly...
00:40:09when...
00:40:10like...
00:40:11you were...
00:40:12coming towards the end of primary school...
00:40:13and the start of secondary school...
00:40:15that this was the type of...
00:40:17work you might...
00:40:18end up doing...
00:40:19very much not...
00:40:20er...
00:40:21so...
00:40:22I'm...
00:40:23I'm a Northsider...
00:40:23from Port Marnock...
00:40:24I went to Port Marnock Community School...
00:40:25erm...
00:40:26I...
00:40:27I don't think this was a normal path...
00:40:28erm...
00:40:29but...
00:40:30erm...
00:40:31I...
00:40:32I don't think it would surprise many people who knew me...
00:40:33when I was in primary school...
00:40:34or in secondary school...
00:40:35that I argue for a living...
00:40:36erm...
00:40:37yeah...
00:40:38so I...
00:40:38did a lot of...
00:40:39you know...
00:40:40debating when I was a kid...
00:40:41and...
00:40:42acting...
00:40:43and argued a lot...
00:40:44and had...
00:40:43strong views on a whole range of topics...
00:40:45erm...
00:40:46and...
00:40:47I've had...
00:40:48a bit...
00:40:48a dose of the...
00:40:49it's not fair...
00:40:50gene...
00:40:51you know...
00:40:52for a long time...
00:40:53so...
00:40:53er...
00:40:54I...
00:40:55I suppose...
00:40:56I...
00:40:57I did always have...
00:40:58a bit of a wish...
00:40:58to...
00:40:59sounds a bit cheesy...
00:41:00but I always had a bit of a wish...
00:41:01to do something which made a difference...
00:41:02erm...
00:41:03so I kind of...
00:41:04I knew I was going to do something social justice related...
00:41:07but then I...
00:41:08alighted upon...
00:41:09alighted upon law...
00:41:10erm...
00:41:11but I...
00:41:12I definitely went into law...
00:41:13in...
00:41:13order to do something social justice related...
00:41:14rather than...
00:41:15becoming a lawyer...
00:41:16and then at the end of it...
00:41:17deciding what...
00:41:18type of law...
00:41:19I wanted to do...
00:41:20it was never on the cards...
00:41:21for me to be a commercial lawyer...
00:41:22absolutely not...
00:41:23erm...
00:41:23thank you very much...
00:41:24for coming on to the show...
00:41:25and telling us...
00:41:26those stories...
00:41:27and letting us know...
00:41:28about...
00:41:29the reality...
00:41:30of...
00:41:31all that...
00:41:32thank you very much...
00:41:33Thanks...
00:41:33for coming on to the show...
00:41:34let us know...
00:41:35let us know...
00:41:36let us know...
00:41:37let us know...
00:41:38...
00:41:43I will...
00:41:44I will see you...
00:41:45let us know...
00:41:46You and I will see you...
00:41:47I am going to...
00:41:48you...
00:41:49to be our...
00:41:50You...
00:41:51I will see you...
00:41:52for a different...
00:41:53from being checked...
00:41:54to be addressed...
00:41:56I will see you all...
00:41:57Ok...
00:41:58little buzz...
00:41:59you know...
00:42:00I know...
00:42:01where there is...
00:42:02you...
00:42:03thank you...
00:42:04you...
00:42:05I will go!
00:42:06where I really want the...
00:42:07I mean, it's going the right way round.
00:42:09There's only two of us in it.
00:42:10Oh, yeah, good.
00:42:11Welcome.
00:42:12Thanks for having me.
00:42:13Well, I didn't know about us.
00:42:15Thanks, producer, for having me.
00:42:17How are you?
00:42:18Yeah, I'm good, thank you.
00:42:19How are you?
00:42:20I'm all right now.
00:42:20How old are you, Sean?
00:42:2160.
00:42:23And what kind of shape are you in?
00:42:25Yeah, pretty good.
00:42:27I mean, you know, I've got the old false hips and...
00:42:32Cracked spine and...
00:42:37Underactive thyroid and full-body alopecia.
00:42:42But apart from that, mega.
00:42:43You're flying apart from that.
00:42:45Tell us about your family, would you like...
00:42:47Like, where did you grow up and who was around you?
00:42:49Well, I'm not a Mancunian.
00:42:51I'm not...
00:42:52I'm Salfordian.
00:42:53You're what?
00:42:54You're Salfordian.
00:42:55I'm from Salford.
00:42:56Oh, yeah, yeah.
00:42:57Paul Scholes country.
00:42:58When we started off, you know, you couldn't say he was a bum for himself.
00:43:02You said Manchester.
00:43:03Yeah.
00:43:04Because nobody...
00:43:05I mean, even the original Red Devils.
00:43:07I was Salfordian.
00:43:07Yeah.
00:43:08So tell us about growing up then and the family that...
00:43:12that was around you, aunts and uncles or brothers and sisters.
00:43:15Yeah, I mean, I thought I...
00:43:17I had a fantastic, really good, happy childhood in what was normal.
00:43:21You know what I mean to me?
00:43:22Yeah.
00:43:22And what you grow up with and what you're around is just normal.
00:43:25So, er...
00:43:27Yeah, it wasn't until later on, you know, when you sort of...
00:43:30You know, you go and see therapists and...
00:43:32and talk, you know, hey, about my very hard sort of childhood.
00:43:37And that and this, er...
00:43:38Then you sort of go, oh, wasn't that normal, you know?
00:43:42I really didn't play, you know, work and do football or sports or whatever.
00:43:47You know, the games that we played was, like, you know,
00:43:49take a load of stuff on the railway line.
00:43:52Set it on fire and wait for the railway police and the trains
00:43:55to come and chase you into the suit.
00:43:57And then the series works where they wouldn't go and we would hide.
00:43:59Yeah.
00:43:59You know, but...
00:44:00Sounds exciting.
00:44:01And then getting...
00:44:02Chase was, er...
00:44:03Well, it was.
00:44:05Was there a point when you were...
00:44:07in your, like, the last, I don't know, the last 10 or...
00:44:1215 years or whatever, and you decided I'd better talk to somebody.
00:44:17..about stuff.
00:44:19Well, we don't have...
00:44:21Oh, if you talk...
00:44:22..about drugs and getting off your nut and all that, like...
00:44:24So, 23 years ago, when he hit 40...
00:44:27..I just decided, because I'd been...
00:44:32..living a similar life, not the music, but living...
00:44:37..a similar life since I was a teenager.
00:44:38Yeah.
00:44:39Like, getting off your box and all that, like...
00:44:42..so, when he hit 40...
00:44:47..it was like, yeah, pack all this in.
00:44:49And I'd been in rehab quite a few times.
00:44:51Mm.
00:44:52And, er, in the past, I'd only ever gone in,
00:44:55because either the girlfriend was...
00:44:57..wanted me to do it, er...
00:45:00..the record label wanted...
00:45:02..or some sort of business wanted me to, you know...
00:45:05..and I'd only ever done it...
00:45:07..for all the people...
00:45:08..never for me.
00:45:09You know, it was like, I go in, I play the game.
00:45:12Mm-hmm.
00:45:13Like, when we came out of Barbados, er...
00:45:15..from...
00:45:16Oh.
00:45:17..1993, after we'd just recorded the Mondays.
00:45:22Yes, Please, last album...
00:45:24Mm.
00:45:24..back in the 90s, er...
00:45:26..I came...
00:45:27..I went straight out of Barbados,
00:45:28..went straight into rehab in Chelsea.
00:45:30I was in there for about...
00:45:32..six weeks when...
00:45:34..you know, at the end of the day, that...
00:45:37..he's nowhere near longer, but...
00:45:38..and then I went straight back into the environment.
00:45:41Mm.
00:45:42..so, er...
00:45:43..it was always about going in for...
00:45:45..and as soon as I came out...
00:45:47..I went straight back at it.
00:45:48Yeah.
00:45:49I mean, I ended up getting off everything myself.
00:45:52..by...
00:45:54..basically...
00:45:55..getting on my bike at...
00:45:57..7 o'clock in the morning...
00:45:59..and...
00:46:00..stopped, finished peddling.
00:46:02..at 12 o'clock at night.
00:46:04You know, going through the countryside and everything,
00:46:06..getting just...
00:46:07..peddling my way through the withdrawals.
00:46:08Took a bit of amphetamine, you know, to...
00:46:12..to keep me out there.
00:46:13And then eventually...
00:46:14..you know, I got me...
00:46:16..I got me body...
00:46:17..to keep me clean.
00:46:18Well done.
00:46:19But that was because...
00:46:20Not easy.
00:46:21..of a good...
00:46:22..of a good woman.
00:46:23Yeah.
00:46:24Going...
00:46:25..back...
00:46:26..into a world...
00:46:27..really where...
00:46:28..you know, that environment was...
00:46:30..was changed.
00:46:31Yeah.
00:46:32You know...
00:46:32..I mean, I still had to then go back...
00:46:34..into an environment of going back to work.
00:46:36You know...
00:46:37..gigging and stuff like that.
00:46:39..and, you know...
00:46:41..so...
00:46:42..it took me, you know, about three...
00:46:45..three or four years...
00:46:47..to get myself...
00:46:49..where I want you to be.
00:46:50Hmm.
00:46:52..what are you working at now?
00:46:54Like, what's the...
00:46:55..how do you spend the time now?
00:46:56Well...
00:46:58..doing this...
00:46:59..err...
00:47:00..I'm on...
00:47:01..I'm at Nyland over the...
00:47:01..yeah.
00:47:02..don't want to sound like I'm plugging.
00:47:03Now, which I...
00:47:04..I don't know what...
00:47:05Qn8, so.
00:47:06..is a one-man...
00:47:06..or something, isn't it?
00:47:07Well...
00:47:08..yeah, it is, basically.
00:47:09I mean, you know...
00:47:10..I...
00:47:11..I've got a guy who interviews me every night.
00:47:13Er...
00:47:14..and...
00:47:15..you know...
00:47:16..you've also got this book going.
00:47:17And in that book is everything that...
00:47:19..Karl, who...
00:47:21..who's doing the interview...
00:47:22..we'll talk about...
00:47:23..but again, I can't do that because...
00:47:25..I can't...
00:47:26..you can't have it like some of them do where...
00:47:28..it's the same questions every night.
00:47:31..night after night.
00:47:32You know, you stick to the script.
00:47:33That would drive me crazy.
00:47:35In my brain...
00:47:36..but anyway, don't...
00:47:37I mean, I'm all over the place with it...
00:47:38..anyway...
00:47:39..and I can...
00:47:40..I can deal...
00:47:41..and I can't do that now because...
00:47:42..again, at...
00:47:43..59 years old...
00:47:45..well...
00:47:46..where I was diagnosed with the ADHD...
00:47:49..and the autism spectrum.
00:47:51..I mean, I have six children...
00:47:53..and five of them...
00:47:54..at ADHD.
00:47:56..they did the...
00:47:57..artism, you know...
00:47:58..up to...
00:47:59..the max.
00:48:00I...
00:48:01..I mean, my...
00:48:02..my youngest who's...
00:48:03..is going on for something...
00:48:04..she's just me in knickers.
00:48:06..you know...
00:48:07..earth.
00:48:10Really.
00:48:11..I mean, I can...
00:48:12..know what she's thinking...
00:48:14..going, doing all the mad stuff.
00:48:16..they did do.
00:48:17Yeah.
00:48:18Do you know what I mean?
00:48:19I mean, I didn't learn my alphabet till I was 25.
00:48:21..you know...
00:48:22..and...
00:48:23..and that was because...
00:48:24..McGilvin at the time suggested that...
00:48:26..I'd sing it.
00:48:27..so I learnt it.
00:48:28Mm.
00:48:29You know, I mean...
00:48:30..we'd been on top of the pops and...
00:48:31..and all that, like an earning doll before...
00:48:33..I learnt me alphabet.
00:48:34..and that was through sync because at school...
00:48:36..and anything that was said in the classroom...
00:48:39..by any time that lesson...
00:48:41..he'd finished and he was out of that doll...
00:48:42..that was gone.
00:48:43Mm.
00:48:44..you know.
00:48:45And I was either looking...
00:48:46..looking at this...
00:48:47..you know, looking at dogs...
00:48:48..someone breathed behind me...
00:48:50..and I...
00:48:51..I'd roll, you know...
00:48:53..you know, one of your...
00:48:54..comfiest things, you know, whatever.
00:48:56..breathing.
00:48:57Yeah.
00:48:58..and now...
00:48:59..and then...
00:49:00..getting on drugs.
00:49:01..early...
00:49:02..that basically is all connected to the ADHD...
00:49:05..and...
00:49:06..and that behaviour.
00:49:07So basically what...
00:49:08..he's now said, you know...
00:49:09..by all my...
00:49:10..I self...
00:49:11..and medicated...
00:49:12..with heroin.
00:49:13Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
00:49:14..you know, because I'm over here with the thought...
00:49:15..and then...
00:49:16..I've got five things going on at once.
00:49:18You know, talk about multitasking.
00:49:21It's like multitasking, but...
00:49:23..none of them get finished.
00:49:25So...
00:49:26..the carton.
00:49:27Yeah.
00:49:28So all that sort of stuff, sort of...
00:49:29..it...
00:49:30..it...
00:49:31..it...
00:49:31..it got the diagnosis, it explained all that...
00:49:34..all that stuff.
00:49:35Yeah.
00:49:36What are people curious about in the Q&As?
00:49:39What do they want to know?
00:49:40Well, it just depends...
00:49:41..where, you know, what...
00:49:42..depending on where you are...
00:49:43..and the questions come from the audience.
00:49:46Some people want to know all about the sex and drugs.
00:49:49Yeah.
00:49:51You've got others that...
00:49:52..want to know about, you know, your songwriting...
00:49:55..and...
00:49:56..and this and that.
00:49:57And then others that are all music.
00:49:59So it depends, you know.
00:50:00Yeah.
00:50:01Yeah.
00:50:01We don't stick to the script, Grace.
00:50:03Don't stick to the book.
00:50:04I think of...
00:50:05..about...
00:50:06..about six books.
00:50:07We're going to probably run the UFO one.
00:50:09You know, I wrote the...
00:50:10What was the UFO...
00:50:11..book of us?
00:50:12You're a fool, you know.
00:50:13Yeah.
00:50:16I mean, again, because I've got...
00:50:18..you know, we've got that rap...
00:50:19..of rock and roll drugs, you know.
00:50:21..everything.
00:50:22So, oh, you must have been on this.
00:50:24The first time I ever saw...
00:50:26..you know, I started...
00:50:28..as a messenger boy...
00:50:30..at...
00:50:31..15...
00:50:32..for the post office.
00:50:33So, I'm working to the bus stop.
00:50:36One morning, about seven o'clock...
00:50:39..and in front of me is this little kid...
00:50:41..he passed his 11 plus...
00:50:43..because he was getting on this bus into...
00:50:45..
00:50:46..in Manchester.
00:50:47..which meant, you know, we were at local schools.
00:50:49And me and him are walking to the bus stop.
00:50:51..who were...
00:50:52..who were...
00:50:53..both just...
00:50:54..I mean, he was in front of me.
00:50:56..right?
00:50:57But we both ended up looking at this thing in the sky...
00:51:00..and it's going like...
00:51:01..yes.
00:51:02..zoom-zoom-zoom-zoom...
00:51:04..bubububububububububububu...
00:51:05Doooooom!
00:51:06Boom, boom, boom, boom, zoom, zoom, zoom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom.
00:51:09Gone.
00:51:10All right.
00:51:11So, I didn't even speak to the kid, but he watched it, seen it.
00:51:16And we just walked to the bus stop running and get on the bus.
00:51:21So, that was my first thing that I'd seen.
00:51:24Yeah.
00:51:25You know.
00:51:26I hadn't took LSD at that stage in my life.
00:51:31So, I wasn't hallucinating on anything.
00:51:36And do you, after you've talked about it, do you sometimes...
00:51:41I just feel, after you've said, I've seen these things...
00:51:44That...
00:51:46Do you...
00:51:46Do you ever feel a little bit...
00:51:48Oh, I shouldn't be talking about that, people who think I'm daft, or...
00:51:50No, I mean...
00:51:51You know what?
00:51:52People have thought I've daft all my life.
00:51:53You know what I mean?
00:51:54Learning difficulties and...
00:51:56Everything.
00:51:57So, that's...
00:52:00What do you mean?
00:52:01I mean, you know.
00:52:02I mean...
00:52:03When I talk about it, I talk about it.
00:52:05People who...
00:52:06People who think I'm...
00:52:07Lying.
00:52:08Whatever.
00:52:09Can't change their mind.
00:52:10You know, don't worry about it.
00:52:11But the fact is, we're not alone in the universe.
00:52:13And...
00:52:16There's this sense in the universe.
00:52:17That's it.
00:52:18That's would it.
00:52:19What was the...
00:52:21It was true.
00:52:21Well, I believe you, you know.
00:52:26Are you...
00:52:27I mean, look, if somebody tell...
00:52:29Even though I know this stuff...
00:52:31...exists and it's real,
00:52:33someone tells me something like that, I still...
00:52:36...it'll have a really hard time swallowing it.
00:52:38You know?
00:52:40You know?
00:52:41But I know what I've seen and I know.
00:52:46You know?
00:52:47Hmm.
00:52:50You seeming...
00:52:51You're in good form.
00:52:53Yeah.
00:52:55I am.
00:52:56You know?
00:52:57Like I say...
00:52:58What's the secret?
00:52:59Or does it just happen?
00:53:02I mean, luckily...
00:53:03I mean, I'll say I've got...
00:53:04You know, my genes that are...
00:53:06...apart from all the operators and this and all that daylight.
00:53:09But, er...
00:53:11You know what I mean?
00:53:12When you get to...
00:53:13I mean, really when you get...
00:53:14...and you 840...
00:53:15You...
00:53:16You've really got to pull yourself in shape.
00:53:18You know what I mean?
00:53:19We've...
00:53:20And then, you know...
00:53:21You...
00:53:22You...
00:53:23You...
00:53:24You've got to go in for that first big MOT.
00:53:26And then, when you get to 50, you've got to be really careful because 50 is the most dangerous...
00:53:31...age for men.
00:53:32Mmm.
00:53:33You know, me brother died in his 50s.
00:53:35Like my pal...
00:53:36...that had got through all the madness...
00:53:38...down in the 50s, you know, where...
00:53:41...pancreas...
00:53:42...fingar...
00:53:43...you know, what...
00:53:44You know...
00:53:45Gone.
00:53:46So...
00:53:47You've got to have regular MOTs in your 50s eating outfit.
00:53:51...exercise.
00:53:52You know, I did a lot of walking before the hips went.
00:53:56And so...
00:53:57You just...
00:53:58And you've got to knock on the head.
00:54:00You know, I still have a drink.
00:54:01Right?
00:54:02Don't have booze in the outside.
00:54:04Oh...
00:54:05...foot...
00:54:06You know...
00:54:06If I want a pint or something, I'll have a drink.
00:54:09Booze wasn't really my...
00:54:11...big thing.
00:54:12Mine was the Edwin and that.
00:54:14Yeah.
00:54:15And then, you know...
00:54:16...all sorts.
00:54:17Proper, you know...
00:54:18...garbage, Ed.
00:54:19I...
00:54:21...acid and pills and...
00:54:22Oh yeah, I mean...
00:54:23...acid and everything, yeah.
00:54:25But...
00:54:26...you know...
00:54:27...crack cocaine...
00:54:28...especially.
00:54:29I mean, that's...
00:54:30...err...
00:54:31...I mean, really...
00:54:32...that's how all my teeth went.
00:54:34You know...
00:54:35...that and...
00:54:36...crystal meth.
00:54:38They...
00:54:39...anytime I read about those drugs...
00:54:40...they say...
00:54:41...they sound like...
00:54:42...ugly experiences.
00:54:43Yeah, yeah.
00:54:44Yeah.
00:54:45The first time...
00:54:46...we went to America...
00:54:47...as a band.
00:54:48It's...
00:54:49...1986.
00:54:51...and...
00:54:53...New York...
00:54:55...they...
00:54:56...and...
00:54:57...just...
00:54:58...it was new.
00:54:59And...
00:55:00...crack cocaine...
00:55:01...was like...
00:55:01...front-page news...
00:55:02...in New York...
00:55:03...you...
00:55:04...that was it, right?
00:55:05And we're...
00:55:06...going over...
00:55:07...just about...
00:55:08...going over to...
00:55:09...and there's an...
00:55:10...article in there...
00:55:11...so narrowly mirror...
00:55:12...and it describes...
00:55:13...this crack cocaine...
00:55:14...this...
00:55:15...drug...
00:55:16...it's so far out...
00:55:18...it'll...
00:55:19...send you to Mars...
00:55:20...and...
00:55:21...as soon as...
00:55:21...you have it...
00:55:22...you're addicted...
00:55:23...for life...
00:55:24...but...
00:55:25...and...
00:55:26...so a young...
00:55:26...you're not gonna go...
00:55:27...ooh...
00:55:28...that's frightening...
00:55:29...you're gonna go...
00:55:30...give me some of that...
00:55:31...I want it!
00:55:31...you know...
00:55:32...so...
00:55:33...when we landed...
00:55:34...first time in America...
00:55:35...in New York...
00:55:36...I mean...
00:55:36...because me and him...
00:55:37...went finding...
00:55:38...cocaine...
00:55:39...so...
00:55:40Two white boys from...
00:55:41...in Chester...
00:55:42...salford...
00:55:43...salford...
00:55:44...salford...
00:55:45...sorry...
00:55:46...and...
00:55:47...what do you...
00:55:48...enjoy doing now?
00:55:49It's exactly what I'm doing!
00:55:51I mean...
00:55:52...it's like...
00:55:53...I get that a lot...
00:55:54...you know...
00:55:55...do you miss the good old days?
00:55:56Do you miss it?
00:55:57Well...
00:55:56...do you know what?
00:55:57I started the band at 18...
00:55:58...so I've sort of...
00:55:59...grown up as well...
00:56:00...doing...
00:56:01...in press...
00:56:02...and everything...
00:56:03...I'm still in the business...
00:56:04...a little bit more...
00:56:05...than ever!
00:56:06That's great!
00:56:06...because...
00:56:07...it's...
00:56:08...it's an honour...
00:56:09...to still be doing...
00:56:10...what I'm doing!
00:56:11You know...
00:56:11...it's an honour...
00:56:12...to have...
00:56:13...you know...
00:56:14...people turning up...
00:56:15...at the Monday shows...
00:56:16...black...
00:56:16...got the new band...
00:56:17...manta of the cosmos...
00:56:18...I do the gorillas as well...
00:56:20...quen...
00:56:21...can people in Ireland...
00:56:23...go see you live?
00:56:25Well...
00:56:26...Mondays...
00:56:27...I think...
00:56:28...back over here...
00:56:29...on the tour...
00:56:30...in...
00:56:31...April...
00:56:32...I think...
00:56:33...2026?
00:56:34Mm!
00:56:35Er...
00:56:36...and...
00:56:37...and now...
00:56:38...where I'm over here...
00:56:39...doing the Q&As...
00:56:40...I couldn't tell you...
00:56:41...where I'm at...
00:56:42...and what the dates are...
00:56:43...I've just not retained that.
00:56:44Okay.
00:56:45Sean, thank you so...
00:56:46...for coming on to the show...
00:56:47...and being so generous...
00:56:48...with your...
00:56:49...time...
00:56:50...and your talk...
00:56:51...and...
00:56:51...it's been...
00:56:52...it's been a pleasure...
00:56:53...yapping with you fella.
00:56:54Thanks for having me dude.
00:56:57Wow.
00:56:58And now...
00:56:59...ladies and gentlemen...
00:57:00...all the way...
00:57:01...from...
00:57:01...shown in...
00:57:02...County Donegal...
00:57:03...would you please welcome...
00:57:04...George Huston...
00:57:05...performing Drag Queen...
00:57:06...from his album...
00:57:07...TODC.
00:57:11...at the concert...
00:57:12...to be被clement...
00:57:13...issoge...
00:57:14...and that was your show...
00:57:15...in the India...
00:57:16...want to be met...
00:57:17...in the 20,000...
00:57:18...in the 1980s...
00:57:19lives in June.
00:57:20...DIK has effected that the semi-lab...
00:57:21...like the number...
00:57:22...1,000 on others.
00:57:23In the 90s, in the late 90s...
00:57:24...to be the TV...
00:57:25...h rejoined the TV...
00:57:26... runner-up...
00:57:27...I can not be accepted...
00:57:28...off camera...
00:57:29...fe ос, or 왔...
00:57:30...I can not get opposite.
00:57:32I'm forced to keep the같ặ...
00:57:34Don't you think I want a litter?
00:57:37Do you think she'd be polite?
00:57:39If it's you coming home for dinner
00:57:41Hate something that I
00:57:44Can control
00:57:45Like you self-professed to stay
00:57:47Or you love
00:57:49The white, white road
00:57:50Pointed traps glorified me
00:57:54The feeling is mutual
00:57:55The feeling is mutual
00:57:58And the feel
00:57:59The feeling is hate
00:57:59You hate that I get more boys than you
00:58:01Well, I hate your fucking face
00:58:04When the boys are running to me
00:58:07They are fully grown
00:58:09They don't need to say the rosary
00:58:13For me
00:58:14Love, love them
00:58:15Cause there's talk about
00:58:17Trying to be
00:58:19From your local scene
00:58:21From a mining long white
00:58:24The dressing ain't no drag queen
00:58:26The feeling is mutual
00:58:29The feeling is mutual
00:58:32And the feeling is hate
00:58:33You hate that I'm
00:58:34Calling out your faith
00:58:35Well, I hate your fucking face
00:58:39Thanks to you
00:58:40I hate me too
00:58:44I hate me too
00:58:46Thanks to you
00:58:49Thanks to you
00:58:51I hate me too
00:58:54I hate me too
00:58:55I hate me too
00:58:57Thanks to you
00:58:59Thanks to you
00:59:00I got a baby
00:59:04He's a full grown man
00:59:06Doesn't need hail
00:59:09Mary's for me
00:59:10To love him
00:59:11He's told
00:59:14Told me about
00:59:14The abuse
00:59:16From when he was wee
00:59:19From a mining long white
00:59:21Dress
00:59:21And he ain't no drag queen
00:59:24The only time that I could ever wish
00:59:27The good book to be true
00:59:29Is for a spot in heaven
00:59:31For a mighty baby
00:59:32And a spot in hell
00:59:34For you
00:59:34The feeling is mutual
00:59:39The feeling is mutual
00:59:40And the feeling is hate
00:59:41You hate that I call out
00:59:42Church and state
00:59:44Well, I hate your fucking face
00:59:45The feeling is mutual
00:59:49The feeling is hate
00:59:50The feeling is hate
00:59:53You hate that I call out
00:59:54And I should think
00:59:55Well, I hate your fucking face
00:59:57The feeling is
00:59:59The feeling is mutual
01:00:00The feeling is mutual
01:00:03And the feeling is hate
01:00:04And I get more boys
01:00:06Than you
01:00:06Well, I hate your fucking face
01:00:09Thanks to you
01:00:14I hate me too
01:00:15I hate me too
01:00:19Thanks to you
01:00:21Thanks to you
01:00:24I hate me too
01:00:25I hate me too
01:00:26I hate me too
01:00:27I hate me too
01:00:29I hate me too
01:00:30Thanks, thanks, thanks, thanks, thanks
01:00:32The feeling is mutual
01:00:34I hate me too
01:00:35I hate me too
01:00:37I hate me too
01:00:38I hate me too
01:00:39I hate me too
01:00:40I hate me too
01:00:41I hate me too
01:00:41Thanks to you
01:00:44you
01:00:44thanks to you
01:00:48I hear you
01:00:49you need me too
01:00:52I need me too
01:00:54thanks to you
01:00:59I hear you
01:01:04I hear you
01:01:09I hear you
01:01:14I hear you
01:01:19I hear you
01:01:24I hear you
01:01:29I hear you
01:01:34I hear you
01:01:39I hear you
01:01:44I hear you
01:01:49I hear you
01:01:54I hear you
01:01:55I hear you
Comments