- 2 months ago
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00:00If you have a one to two day trade horizon, then investing in crypto
00:05is a challenging thing to do, a lot of the speculative money in the last
00:10month or so has been going into gold, you see silver trading as a
00:15meme coin, literally trading as a meme coin that you haven't seen in almost
00:20a generation.
00:21So a lot of the speculative money that you would typically see go to crypto, you're
00:25seeing go to commodities.
00:26I think I would tell investors to take a longer term view.
00:35Hey everyone, you're watching Markets Outlook on CoinDesk.
00:40I'm Jen Sinassi and I'm joined today by Sharplink CEO and former head of digital
00:44assets.
00:45Strategy at BlackRock, Joseph Shalom, as we take a look at the markets this morning
00:49and what to watch this week.
00:50Hey, Joseph.
00:51Good morning, Jen from Frigid, New York.
00:54Yes.
00:55.
00:55It is frigid.
00:56It looks like you're staying warm, as am I, but I haven't been outdoors.
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01:08Joseph, let's talk.
01:09Let's talk about what we're seeing in the markets this morning.
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01:36for crypto in general, tokenization, stable coins, more DeFi.
01:41I think we need to explain why we're not seeing price action.
01:44Again, we're written.
01:46In some ways, some of the best news we've seen in years, and I think the way.
01:51To explain it is we are in a period of both geopolitical and macro.
01:56Uncertainty, the macro setup is actually stealing.
02:01Win from the sales, from all this great news that we would expect to be reflected.
02:06In Bitcoin and Ether's price, and I think what you're starting to see.
02:11Especially in Bitcoin is it's always been the leader.
02:14But if you look closely, we've.
02:16We've been seeing some of the OGs sell and sometimes sell in.
02:21Very large blocks, partially because of concerns around quantum proof.
02:26And you haven't seen the movement you would expect in Bitcoin and ETH.
02:31Given both the market uncertainty and some old holder selling, which we have.
02:36Hadn't seen in quite a while.
02:37Let's talk a little bit about that.
02:39We have retail investors watching on the side.
02:41We're seeing big whales sell.
02:43I think we saw just this morning that they're.
02:46Is a whale that's moved $145 million worth of ETH to a centralized exchange.
02:51We're seeing gold hit new highs.
02:53For that retail investor that's watching this.
02:56And they're thinking, should I follow these whale wallets?
02:59Should I be selling?
03:00Should I be worried about.
03:01Quantum.
03:02Should I rather be looking at gold as a safe haven asset?
03:05What would you tell them?
03:06I would tell them if you have a one to two day trade horizon, then.
03:11Investing in crypto is a challenging thing to do.
03:14A lot of the speculative.
03:16Money in the last month or so has been going into gold.
03:20You see silver.
03:21Trading as a meme coin, literally trading as a meme coin that you haven't seen.
03:26In almost a generation.
03:27So a lot of the speculative money that you would typically see go to crypto.
03:31You're seeing go to commodities.
03:33I think I would tell investors to take a longer.
03:36Term view.
03:37Actually, people in crypto have done better by buying and holding.
03:41When you have a thesis than in day trading.
03:44And I think the news that I would ask them to.
03:46To focus on is you're starting to see the largest financial.
03:51Institutions in the world who own trillions and trillions of dollars of assets.
03:55Not.
03:56Not just hint.
03:57Not just give bread crumb.
03:58They are announcing at the top of.
04:01Their lungs.
04:02That all assets are going to be tokenized.
04:04And it's going to happen on digital.
04:06Rails.
04:07And if you've seen the announcements from the likes of BlackRock and Bank of New York.
04:11And Goldman Sachs.
04:12And others.
04:13It's happening on Ethereum.
04:14So the tailwind.
04:16The tailwinds for the Ethereum ecosystem have frankly never been stronger.
04:20Davos.
04:21Just last week.
04:22You can argue.
04:23Was dominated by two topics.
04:25Greenland and crypto.
04:26crypto.
04:27But on the crypto front.
04:28You heard Larry Fink and BlackRock essentially say.
04:31All assets will be tokenized.
04:33And they had a beautiful slide that essentially.
04:36Posited with a very strong conviction.
04:39That Ethereum will be that total.
04:41The whole road for tokenization.
04:42So I would say to your investors.
04:44Don't focus on the daily.
04:46Act.
04:46Actually invest.
04:47Where the puck is going.
04:49And the macro is telling you.
04:51To invest in tokenization.
04:52Stablecoins.
04:53And you can get that exposure.
04:55From Ethereum.
04:56I want to talk about that a little more in a second.
04:58But I want to touch on the comment you just made about silver.
05:01Trading like a meme coin.
05:02What do you mean by that.
05:03I think.
05:04In.
05:05In.
05:06In.
05:06In long-term trends.
05:07When you have geopolitical risk.
05:09When there's worried worries.
05:11about war breakdown of norms and you're starting to see potential.
05:16Breakdown of norms with real politic. Gold has been always the first.
05:21First price mover and you've seen gold almost double in the last year.
05:26And a half, but very quickly when speculative money comes in, it's often.
05:31It's silver that attracts the faster money and has a faster price movement.
05:36And you're seeing that you're seeing, I would say the lesser quality commodity.
05:41Trade up because that's where the speculation is going.
05:45Let's come back.
05:46To the Ethereum ecosystem, my question for you has to do with the theory.
05:51Ethereum versus Solana narrative.
05:52We've heard a lot of folks come out and say Solana is the chain.
05:56For Wall Street, I know that from your writing and hearing you speak in various different
06:00outlets.
06:01From your perspective, Ethereum is the chain that's going to power Wall Street.
06:05Talk to me.
06:06A little bit about that competition.
06:07Is there room for both?
06:09And if not, what?
06:11What makes Ethereum the better chain?
06:13Sure.
06:13I won't share my perspectives.
06:14Maybe I'll just share facts.
06:16So the fact is that Ethereum has been around for 10 years.
06:21It's the secure, trusted, and liquid ecosystem.
06:24And I talk about both.
06:26The layer one mainnet, as well as the long set of layer twos who help do.
06:31That roll-up strategy.
06:32Solana has been fast and cheap, but it has not been...
06:36It has been secure.
06:36It has had downtime.
06:38And I think what you're going to end up seeing, and you're seeing it...
06:41Now, is the real institutions who care only about three things.
06:45Trust, security...
06:46And liquidity, they're building on Ethereum for high-value projects.
06:51Where you're talking about moving money, tokenizing assets, representing ownership.
06:56It's happening on Ethereum, more than 65% of stable coins...
07:01And tokenized assets are happening there.
07:0310x what you see on Solana.
07:05I do...
07:06I do think there's a role for cheap, fast, less secure chains.
07:10And I think Solana...
07:11We'll win in the meme coin, maybe the gaming space, where actually security matters.
07:16Speed matters a lot less, and speed matters more.
07:18So it's not my perspective, it's what you're seeing...
07:21In the industry, Ethereum leads in high-quality assets in DeFi...
07:26tokenization in stable coins by a factor of 10 to 1 over Solana...
07:31And that cap is only getting larger.
07:33It's not my perspective.
07:35People are voting.
07:36With their feet.
07:37Coming back to what we were speaking about earlier, when do you think...
07:41The price of ETH starts to catch up with the action we're seeing...
07:46On the Ethereum chain and the total value locked?
07:49I think the TVL in action...
07:51Tokenization is there.
07:52And I think we're at the early stages.
07:54We started in tokenization...
07:56by individual funds.
07:57When I was at BlackRock, we tokenized the largest fund in the world...
08:01called Biddle...
08:02I think you're going to stop seeing individual funds and stocks being tokenized...
08:06You're going to see fund complexes, platforms be tokenized...
08:10You know, and...
08:11And that is what's really exciting...
08:12Because you're going to take things that have taken years to grow to...
08:1630 billion of tokenized RWA...
08:18Potentially go to trillions in the next year...
08:21Because of that.
08:22I think we need to get through this macro uncertainty.
08:26In the markets.
08:27Some of it is the geopolitical risk.
08:29Some of it has been eroded...
08:31rotation to speculation on AI.
08:33I think we're going to see that happen...
08:35In the...
08:36In the next month or two.
08:38Typically, when you've seen drawdowns...
08:40It takes three or four...
08:41For months to get leverage out of the system.
08:43That started on October 10th...
08:45With a consistent...
08:46consolidation day. We're about three months past that. And in historical
08:51cycles, you start seeing the uptrend after that's been worked through, and I think the
08:56macro tailwinds, the stories, the adoption is there. We just need
09:01to get through some of this geopolitical risk and general markets uncertainty.
09:06Something else everyone is talking about, of course, is market structure legislation in the United States.
09:11Which is kind of stalled right now. How are you looking at market structure?
09:16What if it doesn't pass before midterms? Is that going to have a dynamic
09:21effect, do you think, on Bitcoin and Ethereum? Or do you think it's going to be business as usual?
09:26The builders will continue building. Value will continue accruing on both chains.
09:31I think you have a lot of clarity already, even though the Clarity Act hasn't passed. You have
09:36seen favorable government actions. We've seen enforcement actions go down. There's a very
09:41clear path. I think the market's already building in the fact that it's going to
09:46pass, whether it happens in February or it happens in July, I think fundamentally.
09:51It's being built into the system. Builders are there. The VCs are back.
09:56But I don't think that, I think it's going to have a more of an impact on
10:01the winners and losers within the ecosystem. Which are going to be the intermediary?
10:06Who benefit more than others? But I think overall, the path and the tail...
10:11end on regulatory clarity is already here. And you're seeing that, like you're...
10:16seeing that because the largest institutions in the world who control 700...
10:21trillion dollars of assets are already starting to build into this ecosystem and they're...
10:26making long-term bets because they know it's going to pass. It's less of an issue if it passes.
10:31It passes this quarter or next. You mentioned quantum a few minutes ago and I want to unpack...
10:36that a little bit with you. Quantum and AI are being seen as threats.
10:41to crypto ecosystems for similar reasons. Let's start with...
10:46Quantum, how is Ethereum preparing, I guess, for...
10:51for the threat posed by quantum computing?
10:54Sure. Look...
10:56I think if you looked back two years ago, people thought that quantum would...
11:01would really come in 2035. And I think there's a reality that with...
11:06recent advances and with AI, the quantum generation is going to happen much quicker.
11:11on Friday, the Ethereum Foundation did something amazing.
11:16They...
11:16clarified their action plan on quantum resistance. They are in the poll position...
11:21to be the first and maybe the only decentralized quantum resistant infrastructure.
11:26you would have seen Justin Drake announced they have a new post-quantum team.
11:31that's meeting on a periodic basis. They formalized publicly their plan.
11:36and more than any other blockchain or network...
11:41Ethereum has a track record for over 10 years of delivering...
11:46startups becoming,...
11:50מחVcir attracting multiple major releases. And we've a lot...
11:54mea lot of confidence that that...
11:55With respect to AI, I actually don't see it as a threat.
11:59I actually see.
12:00I actually see it as a macro tailwind.
12:03And what do I mean by that?
12:04If you take a step back.
12:05AI has been something that has been introduced in 2025.
12:10Into just generalized enterprise software.
12:13I think what you're going to start seeing.
12:15This year is task specific agents not only operate.
12:20In the crypto ecosystem.
12:21But operate in conjunction with one another.
12:23And I think.
12:25What you're going to potentially see is.
12:27Because everyone will have a digital.
12:30Twin of their wallet.
12:31You're going to see three or four phenomenon.
12:33That we've never seen before.
12:35In finance.
12:36And let me share what those are.
12:37With these Agenda capabilities being coordinated.
12:40On your behalf.
12:41You're going to start seeing yourself.
12:43As almost having an asset manager.
12:45In your wallet.
12:46The idea that you can give these Agenda agents.
12:50Constraints like yield and risk and tolerance.
12:54And they can rebound.
12:55Portfolios.
12:56You're going to start seeing automated market making.
13:00Happening from wallets.
13:01In a way that humans have to do themselves.
13:04And I think.
13:05What's most interesting.
13:06Is this Agenda capability.
13:08What we call an Agenda.
13:10Ethereum economy.
13:11Is going to start allowing people.
13:13To participate in DeFi.
13:15In ways that they've never done before.
13:17Having your wallet.
13:18Or your app.
13:19Is going to start allowing people.
13:20To potentially rebalance your staking.
13:22Look for yield.
13:23Restake.
13:25And essentially operate a little bit more autonomously.
13:28It's how people.
13:30In traditional finance.
13:31Will seek returns.
13:32And you're going to start seeing in crypto.
13:34What's real.
13:35Really positive about this.
13:36Is you're going to start seeing transaction volumes.
13:38Go up massively.
13:40And more and more of the activity from DeFi.
13:43Happened on networks like Ethereum.
13:45And that's very positive.
13:46Both for TVL.
13:48And transaction counts.
13:50That you're going to see on Ethereum.
13:51So rather than a threat.
13:53I see Agentic.
13:54As one of the tail.
13:55And you'll see if you want to geek out.
13:57Read ERC 800.
14:00It is a trustless agentic protocol on Ethereum.
14:03That I think is going to build.
14:05A new type of machine economy.
14:07On Ethereum that we've never seen before.
14:09So.
14:10I think we're at the early stages.
14:11Of the transformation of finance.
14:13And this idea that a.
14:15Authentic agents can help individual investors.
14:18Do their investing better for them.
14:19Than they better.
14:20Ever done before.
14:21I've heard a lot of people say.
14:22That in a way.
14:23Maybe crypto wasn't developed.
14:25For humans.
14:26Maybe it was developed for AI.
14:27And that's what's going to.
14:29That's what.
14:30Going to bring us this billion users.
14:31That everyone has been talking about.
14:33For the last five or so years.
14:35Do you agree?
14:36I do.
14:37And I think we're underestimating it.
14:38You know.
14:39We've been talking about.
14:40AI and crypto for a very long time.
14:43But there's a great quote from.
14:45Bill Gates that we often overestimate.
14:47What's going to happen with teams or technology.
14:50In a year.
14:51But we fundamentally underestimate.
14:53The impact of these technological.
14:55Changes over a decade.
14:57We've been building this.
14:58And I think we've been overestimating it.
15:00In the short run.
15:00Now is the time we're going to start seeing.
15:03Massive adoption.
15:05Of decentralized rails.
15:06And I think you're going to end up seeing.
15:08Both traditional institutions.
15:10And individual users.
15:12Rely on these decentralized rails.
15:15And agenda capabilities.
15:16In ways that they never anticipated.
15:19It might start in there.
15:20Consumer life.
15:21But it's certainly coming very quickly.
15:23In their financial lives.
15:25And I think it's going to be.
15:26A step function in advance.
15:27In how money is moved.
15:29And how people.
15:30Interact with their money.
15:31Over what we've seen.
15:32Which was really stagnant change over.
15:35A couple of generations.
15:36So I'm bullish.
15:37And I think we're underestimating the impact.
15:39And it's.
15:40It's going to bring a lot of prosperity.
15:42When I mentioned AI as a threat.
15:44Some folks have.
15:45Told me that AI allows folks.
15:47Who previously weren't able.
15:49To act as developers.
15:50Developers do that.
15:51You know.
15:51Giving them the tools.
15:52To potentially break smart contracts.
15:54Or.
15:55Break different crypto ecosystems.
15:56It sounds like.
15:58Maybe that's something.
16:00That is not going to affect Ethereum.
16:02Or how are you.
16:03Do you think about that?
16:04We do.
16:05I think quantum in the long run.
16:06Is the bigger threat.
16:07And we're quite relieved.
16:09And excited that it.
16:10Ethereum and the Ethereum foundation.
16:11Is going to take the leading role.
16:13I think what's in.
16:15Interesting is.
16:15You can make an argument.
16:16That AI can.
16:18Potentially beat mechanisms.
16:19As.
16:20You said.
16:20But AI can do things.
16:22That we've never done before.
16:23Which is.
16:24Monitor.
16:25Smart contracts.
16:25In real time.
16:27For flaws.
16:28To actually play a defensive.
16:30Role as well.
16:31So I think it's going to bring good and bad.
16:33I think the ecosystem.
16:35Will stay ahead of it.
16:36But I think it's more likely.
16:38That you're protected.
16:39In.
16:40A decentralized trusted ecosystem.
16:42Like Ethereum.
16:43Than you are in traditional.
16:45Rails where you rely on humans.
16:46And centralized silo technology.
16:50To try to protect you.
16:51Ethereum is seeing something remarkable.
16:53Right now.
16:54Which is.
16:55The likes of Bitmine and Sharpling.
16:56The largest corporate holders of Ethereum.
17:00Are staking in Ethereum at a scale.
17:01That they've never seen before.
17:03And that's adding.
17:04Sign.
17:05Significant economic security to the network.
17:07You're not seeing that in Solana.
17:09And I think.
17:10This is going to be a really, really positive force.
17:12And when institutions start buying Ether.
17:15To secure their transactions on chain.
17:17It's going to provide even more staked security.
17:20So this is a self-reinforcing positive flywheel.
17:23And we're quite bullish.
17:25That now is the time.
17:26To enter this space.
17:27All right.
17:28Let's talk about Sharplink.
17:29Second.
17:30Largest corporate holder of Ethereum.
17:32Talk to us about your strategy.
17:34As we get.
17:35Deeper into 2026.
17:36Sure.
17:37I think.
17:38Last summer you saw.
17:39The.
17:40The treasury.
17:40The digital asset treasury space.
17:42Explode across Bitcoin.
17:43Ether.
17:44Solana.
17:45And other chains.
17:46That was that first phase of formation.
17:48And initial capital.
17:50Gathering.
17:50We raised.
17:51A little over $3 billion.
17:53But we've built.
17:54The most.
17:55Institutional team of any debt.
17:58And I would say we're the most focused.
18:00Of any of the digital asset treasuries.
18:02In the Ethereum space.
18:04Because we're run.
18:05By people who have traditional finance backgrounds.
18:07Who came from crypto as well.
18:09Who understand.
18:10And risk management.
18:11And we've been staking.
18:12100% nearly.
18:15Of our ETH.
18:15From foundation.
18:17Because ETH is a productive asset.
18:19Unlike.
18:20Bitcoin.
18:20You need to be putting it to work.
18:22To earn that two and a half.
18:23To three and a half percent.
18:25Yield.
18:26We've also been innovating in this space.
18:28We like to think of ourselves.
18:30As pioneers.
18:31While others have either not been staking.
18:33Or just earning.
18:35The native staking yield.
18:36We've been composing.
18:38Institutional DeFi solutions.
18:40To drive even more returns.
18:42To our investors.
18:43We announced.
18:45Earlier this month.
18:46That we deployed.
18:48$170 million.
18:50Of our ETH.
18:51The largest public company deployment.
18:53Into DeFi.
18:55In conjunction with consensus.
18:57The linear chain.
18:58EtherFi.
18:59And I.
19:00The eigencloud.
19:01To essentially.
19:02Do restaking capabilities.
19:04On chain.
19:05Earn incentives beyond the yield rate.
19:08But we did something.
19:08That no one had done before.
19:10As a public company.
19:11Keep this DeFi.
19:13Investment.
19:13Within a qualified.
19:15Custodian at Anchorage.
19:16So think about what we're doing.
19:18We're allowing investors to get.
19:20DeFi level yield.
19:21While keeping it within the protection.
19:23Of a regulated custodian.
19:25Had never been done before.
19:26And that's.
19:26Part of what we're trying to do.
19:28To pioneer.
19:29Extend.
19:30And into DeFi.
19:31But not take the risks.
19:33That you would see in a Web3 wallet.
19:35So we're quite excited.
19:36This is great for investors.
19:38You mentioned digital asset.
19:40Treasuries really kind of took over the spotlight.
19:41Last year.
19:43Heading into 2026.
19:44It feels like.
19:45Some of the air has been.
19:46Sucked from the room.
19:47Of course.
19:47There are strategies.
19:48Like the one that you just.
19:50Outline that are showing some innovation.
19:51When it comes to some of these.
19:52Digital asset treasuries.
19:54I have to ask.
19:55I was listening to Anthony Scaramucci's podcast recently.
19:58Mike Novogratz was on there.
20:00He said he thinks that a lot of these digital asset treasuries.
20:02Are going to be trading below their net asset value.
20:05Unless they can come up with some real business operations.
20:09How do you.
20:10Respond to that.
20:11And can you tell us a little bit more.
20:12About the sustainability of Sharp.
20:15Blink.
20:15What are those business operations.
20:16That are going to take you beyond 2026.
20:19And bring investors.
20:20The value that they're expecting.
20:22Sure.
20:22So I said the first phase is formation.
20:24You had to do.
20:25The right many DATs did not form with the right teams.
20:28Or the right incentives.
20:30Second is you have to make your ETH productive.
20:33And we've been doing that.
20:35The beautiful thing about having permanent capital.
20:38And what do I mean by that.
20:39We have.
20:40Clean balance sheet.
20:41We are not a fund where you have daily liquidity.
20:43We're just a stock that.
20:45You can buy and sell every day.
20:47The billions of dollars of ETH we own.
20:49We take a deck.
20:50Decade long approach to making it productive.
20:53And so our plans are.
20:55To do two things.
20:56One is to take that certainty.
20:58Into the ecosystem.
21:00And offer them these protocols multi-year.
21:05Locks to allow them to grow their protocol knowing that they can.
21:10use our ETH in a productive manner.
21:12Crypto has never seen permanent capital.
21:15And that's a really good thing.
21:16Second, because of our strategic partnership with consensus.
21:20And having Joe Lubin on our board.
21:22We now have entree to some of the newest and.
21:25smartest protocols.
21:26And we will find some of them.
21:28Who will give us token value.
21:30Which could 2x, 5x, 10x.
21:32Because we're early into the new.
21:35Institutional DeFi cycle.
21:36And then without sharing anything.
21:38That I shouldn't as a public.
21:40Company CEO.
21:40We will build.
21:42Operations and business.
21:45In the Ethereum ecosystem.
21:46That will kick off ETH denominated.
21:50Revenue.
21:50So it becomes a virtuous cycle.
21:53That said.
21:53We have to recognize.
21:55That the valuations have consolidated.
21:57I think in the long run.
21:59They will mean.
22:00Because if you own billions of dollars of ETH.
22:03You're generating staking revenue.
22:04And you.
22:05Can build ETH denominated businesses.
22:07I think public markets.
22:08Will reward that.
22:10So we're built for up cycles.
22:11And down cycles.
22:12Because we have permanent capital.
22:15And.
22:15And a really great institutional management team.
22:17Who understands both opportunities.
22:19And risk.
22:20So we're bullish on the sector.
22:22Even though right now.
22:23We're in a bit of a consolidation phase.
22:25And just at the last thing.
22:26I'm going to ask you.
22:27I know that you recently outlined.
22:28Four reasons.
22:29Wait.
22:30I think ETH's total value locked.
22:31Is going to 10x this year.
22:32I think we hit all of them.
22:34During our.
22:35Interview.
22:35But do you have a price target.
22:36By end of year.
22:38I don't have a price target.
22:39I'll let.
22:40Others tell us where the price of.
22:42Silver, gold, ETH, Bitcoin are going in the next.
22:45Month.
22:45I have a very strong macro view.
22:48That the more activity.
22:50That is coming to the Ethereum ecosystem.
22:52The L1 and L2s.
22:53Will drive.
22:55Demand for ETH.
22:56And drive the price of ETH up.
22:58I can't tell you whether.
23:00We're going to get out of this.
23:01Bit of a consolidated period.
23:03This month.
23:04Or next month.
23:05But I'm sharing with you.
23:06If you're a long-term investor.
23:07And you believe that.
23:09Decentral.
23:10Decentralized rails are going to rewrite.
23:12The Wall Street market structure.
23:14Now is the.
23:15Time to be owning ETH at this price.
23:17And Sharplink offers.
23:18That really smart exposure.
23:20Vehicle without a management fee.
23:22That you see in the ETFs.
23:24Now is a great.
23:25Time to enter.
23:26Especially since the price.
23:28Seems to be poised for.
23:30An increase.
23:30But I'll allow others.
23:31Who are wonderful builders.
23:33And speculators to pick.
23:35The price for next week.
23:36I don't know what it is.
23:37I know the price will be higher.
23:39Quarters from now.
23:40Joseph.
23:41Thanks so much for joining the show.
23:43Jen.
23:43Thanks for having me.
23:44Stay warm.
23:45Thanks so much for having me.
23:50Thanks so much for having me.
23:51Thanks so much for having me.
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