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00:00I would start with your latest book, Karuna, The Power of Compassion.
00:05I was just going through the prologue and trying to understand this latest publication from you.
00:11I understand you have decades of work behind you and you are one of the tallest leaders in this field.
00:18You talk about compassion, you talk about compassion coefficient, CQ, is something that you have pointed out in this book as well.
00:26I have heard about IQ, I have heard about EQ as well.
00:30What is CQ?
00:32So, you rightly pointed out that the world is facing complex problems, lot of crisis.
00:50But despite all the wealth and knowledge and power, the people are suffering.
00:58So, I was thinking that what could be sustainable solution to these issues because the situation is that whenever any solution is found,
01:16the problems are born out of solutions and that is a very, very serious situation.
01:23People talk of, say, solving the poverty, GDP.
01:28GDP.
01:29Then, all the policies and programs are driven in that direction and GDP means more consumption,
01:37means more production, means more industrialization and that means the earth has to suffer for that.
01:46So, mineral, water, fresh air, coal, everything is utilized for industrialization so that consumption and production and GDP can grow.
02:02So, the planet is suffering because of that.
02:07So, I realized that compassion is the solution but my compassion, the definition of my compassion is different.
02:16It is not kindness, mercy, pity, it is not even sympathy or empathy.
02:23People put all these phrases in one basket but I redefined and reinvigorated the power of compassion.
02:35So, compassion is not a soft emotion or a value or virtue but compassion is a force born from feeling the suffering of others as one's own suffering
02:50and that force drives to take mindful action.
02:54In simplest word, compassion is mindful problem solving.
02:59So, when I talk about compassion quotient, first of all, we have to understand that all of us are born with innate power of compassion.
03:15So, consciousness and compassion are the two natural gifts or divine gifts.
03:22But we keep on losing the track on compassion because of all the upbringing, all the education systems, all the environment, social, cultural, political environment.
03:37We have lost the power and importance of compassion as a transformative force.
03:47So, if everybody is having compassion, we can measure it and then we can enhance it.
03:55So, measuring the compassion and enhancing it is CQ, compassion quotient.
04:03IQ and EQ are very individualistic but CQ is not because CQ is determined on four core components and they are all measurable.
04:15The first one is awareness, taking cognizance of others' problems and sufferings.
04:24That is one.
04:26The second one is connectedness.
04:30We have to feel connectedness to each other because the whole evolution of human civilization is driven by that tendency to be connected with each other.
04:43But that connection has to be genuine connection.
04:46So, that we can go to the third part of it and that is feeling.
04:51Feeling should be deep feeling where you feel the problems of others as your own problem and the fourth is action.
04:59And it gives birth to a force, then that force becomes the problem solver.
05:10So, compassion is force, compassion is action, compassion is problem solving.
05:18Compassion has enormous power to question the wrongs and injustices around us.
05:23And compassion also helps in finding answers.
05:27So, CQ is something very new but I am confident that this is going to be the game changer but that is also going to be something which everyone will apply in their lives.
05:42May it be making decisions about choosing partners and marriages or may it be implying people in the corporations and in the offices.
05:55CQ would be the defining factor in the future.
05:59Great.
06:00Sir, from Diyasalai your autobiography that was revealed last year took Karuna.
06:08How different is the power of compassion Karuna from your autobiography and what was the inspiration behind this book?
06:15So, Diyasalai is autobiography but in that it was clear that my whole life and my struggle, my failures and my success and everything which I could accomplish has been guided and strengthened and driven by the power of compassion.
06:40And on the basis of that I started realizing that it is not just me.
06:46There are hundreds, thousands of people who brought transformation in the society, who fought for justice and equality and peace and sustainability.
06:59Their driving force has also been compassion.
07:04I am quite convinced that all the religions in the world were born out of the spark of compassion.
07:11When Jesus Christ, when Hazrat Mohammed Saak, when Buddha, when Gandhi, when Mahavir, when Abraham, whosoever, Guru Nanak Dev, when they felt the suffering and problems of the masses so deeply as their own problems, own sufferings, they did not sit quiet.
07:38They did not overwhelmed and just give up but they have taken a conscious decision and action to fight for elevating those problems, those sufferings and how the religions were born.
07:56And similarly, all the revolutions and social transformations, they were born out of the spark of compassion.
08:03So I thought that what the world needs today is compassion and that was one of the reasons I have penned down some of my thoughts based on my experience but also the experiences of other people.
08:21But then I realized that if we take compassion in the conventional manner then the people think that it is just kindness or a good human quality but this is not.
08:37So compassion is transformative, dynamic and disruptive force because no other way we can solve the deep-rooted problems of injustice.
08:56It could be it could be it could be it could be it could be the gender discrimination, it could be the racial discrimination, it could be the hatred and violence in the minds and in the society that is growing and systematically being spread globally.
09:16We have to go to this new idea of compassion as force as action.
09:25So this book determines, this book defines all these details and I also feel that there is a need of self-compassion also.
09:41Self-compassion will help us in many manner because today's world has one out of six people having depression, isolation, different kind of mental stresses and loneliness, primarily loneliness that leads to several other issues.
10:09So self-compassion will help in finding out the best friend inside everyone and that best friend will help not to be dwelled or not to be overwhelmed with a sense of self-glory or self-criticism or self-worthlessness.
10:32So it will unbiasedly and objectively help in showing us the mirror so that we can learn about ourselves and we can improvise every day every minute and then comes to the kin compassion.
10:47So today when the family values are diminishing and the families are breaking people live in this kind of aggressive competitiveness and competition even in the families.
11:00So it will help in bringing together the values of families so it will help in bringing together the values of familyhood that is the kin compassion and the social compassion.
11:07So in all walks of life may it be judiciary or police may it be politics or governance may it be education and academia as well as in health sector everywhere in all the organizations and institutions we need the higher CQ.
11:35So higher level of compassion and that will help in creating a compassionate society and compassionate community.
11:44And finally the fourth aspect of compassion is transformative compassion.
11:51As I said before that there are very serious structural systematic sufferings and injustices and they can be solved only when we feel connected with those problems and those sufferers and then with that force of compassion we take action.
12:09Great.
12:10So you speak so strongly about compassion you talk about you know having a compassionate society a compassionate family yet we see in today's world how globalization is changing you know how things are changing every other day.
12:27We see countries trying to you know larger countries more powerful countries trying to bully if I may use the word the other countries for example what we see how the geopolitics the scenario is right now.
12:40In this world where children are living in this environment they are growing seeing this do you think it would impact their understanding of compassion do you think it would also impact their behavior if they see global leaders who once were considered you know the epitome of if I may say the epitome of compassion or you know giving other person the chance.
13:03Do you see something like that that is not happening right now it is impacting children's behavior as well.
13:10I don't think that the young generation today see those leaders as the epitome of compassion or goodness or honesty.
13:22Over the years right over the decades these values and virtues have shrinked or there is a serious deficit in those things but in both ways we see a lot of optimism.
13:41One is that there are good leaders good leaders good leaders in faith institutions good leaders in politics good leaders in all walks of life very few but they are there but their voices are not so loud as we say that evil runs very fast and evil speaks loudest.
14:04On the other hand goodness on the other hand goodness on the other hand goodness walks slowly and goodness has does not have that louder voice so that is sometimes silence.
14:16So in this case we have we have to find those leaders in all walks of life all societal situations but on the other hand young people you are right Nisharji that it is is it not shameful.
14:33That 473 million I say more than 47 crore children are living in war prone areas where the violence conflict insurgencies are taking place.
14:56They are not responsible for any war they are not responsible for any kind of this violence but they are the worst sufferers young children 47 crore globally.
15:09What is the fault of those children who are being killed in Gaza innocent children sometimes they die out of hunger food is there but the food trucks are stopped at a distance what is their fault that they are injured they are sick and their medicines don't reach to them it is stopped by those people.
15:33So children must not pay the price of what the adults do adults have to go for more compassionate diplomacy and compassionate dialogue that is the need of the hour.
15:48So say 138 million more than 13 crore children are languishing in child labour in modern day slavery some of them are sold and bought like animals or sometimes even lesser prices than the animals.
16:06Who's fault is this?
16:07Whose fault is this?
16:08This is our fault and whose children are these?
16:11These are all our children they are your children they are my children and until unless that sense of belongingness and connectedness with the children in sense of moral responsibility arises.
16:21I am sorry to say that no scheme no law no good words no sermon can protect these children and their childhood and that's why we have to globalize compassion.
16:36We have globalized markets, economies, data we have globalized information even we have globalized extremism and that is growing very fast communalism all kind of things global warming.
16:50But this is the time to globalize compassion and if India if the Indians cannot take the lead take the initiative in globalization of compassion who have such a great history and legacy who else will do?
17:10So we have to go for globalization of compassion.
17:15So Satyarthi movement for global compassion as we are speaking about compassion can you throw some light on the work that it does and how different it is from your previous initiatives, previous successful initiatives.
17:29How different is this and how do you see it working for the next let's say one decade?
17:36So well the roots and foundation of this new initiative or new movement Satyarthi movement for global compassion are my previous movements and campaigns and organizations and of course learning what I have learned in that.
17:54But in all those efforts I have realized that we have to deepen and expand the solution oriented, sustainable solution oriented approach.
18:12And children's issues cannot be solved in isolation.
18:16When the world is burning, when the people are ready to fight with each other without no reason and the children have to pay the cost then it is important, it is rather necessary that we have to look for more deeper and broader solution.
18:34And I found that it is possible only through launching a worldwide movement for compassion.
18:41So SMGC, Satyarthi movement for global compassion has been widely supported in less than one and a half year.
18:51It has been strongly supported by a number of Nobel laureates, peace laureates and laureates from other disciplines, world leaders, presidents, prime ministers, kings, queens and former head of the state.
19:05So I am quite confident that our world is looking for some other alternate way of tackling, dealing with the present complex issues.
19:25And people started resonating with it, even the young people, I would always say that youth are filled with compassion and passion both.
19:38So their passion, their energy, their dreams should get a reason and a purpose to make the world a better place and that is possible through compassion.
19:52So in universities and colleges and other places wherever I spoke about my definition of compassion as selfish, mindful, problem solving.
20:04They like it in the simple words, not as a philosophical thing or ideological or religious thing.
20:10So compassion is a secular definition, it is not related to any religion.
20:20As I say that religious leaders and the faith institutions perhaps think that they are preaching compassion.
20:30But that compassion remains hollow if they do not understand that their mother, their seed, their first spark is compassion.
20:38They are born out of compassion and they should live compassion rather than they preach compassion.
20:44So preaching is not going to solve any problem until unless we live it in our life, we are not able to be compassionate.
20:53So compassion is not preaching, not teaching. I am not a preacher or teacher of compassion.
21:01I had made a way of life and that's why with utmost humility I would say that everybody has that power of compassion and we can remove the layers which have been put on it and then we can definitely be a good human being and a good world.
21:23Wonderful sir. I was recently speaking to Sunita Krishnanji, yet another tall leader in the field of anti-human trafficking.
21:32And she portrayed a very scary situation in India when I asked her how technology, whether technology had made it easier to track people, to track these who are in human trafficking.
21:47But what she told me that the situation in the last few years has become more severe and more and more children like they even don't know that who exactly is trying to traffic them.
22:01It's because it's an unseen enemy out there in the digital world.
22:05Do you see something similar happening or how do you see the problem of human trafficking evolving in India?
22:13Well, I have big respect for my younger sister Sunita Krishnanji and she is one of the bravest fighters against human slavery and trafficking of girls in particular.
22:30So, I agree with her that this is a situation and trafficking is not a simple ordinary crime. This is an organized crime and there are many forces involved in it because human trafficking is one of the most lucrative illicit trade in the world.
22:50So, that is a global situation and now it is cross-border. It is not just terrorism and other things are cross-border but trafficking is the cross-border and technology made it easier and comfortable and hidden invisible.
23:10So, the invisible hands are taking away young girls and young boys from the laps of their parents and somehow they were taken to a situation where they cannot come back perhaps.
23:32So, lot of work has to be done in prevention. Lot of work is needed in India also for the prosecution and conviction of those people and technology has to be used for it widely.
23:48So, we are very very fast growing technology and this place Hyderabad is the hub of technology and advancement in technology. So, it is important that technology should be severe for such children and such women and such people who are victims of human slavery and trafficking.
24:12It should not just remain in the hands of people to earn more money and accumulate wealth using technology as a tool but that could be a powerful tool when it is in the hands of those who believe in the freedom, dignity and justice of children especially but all vulnerable sections of society.
24:41Right, sir.
24:42Sir, I would also take the opportunity to speak about this recent controversy around Nobel Prize. How we see the world's most powerful person repeatedly demanding that he should be given a Nobel Peace Prize for all the wars that he has stopped. How do you see this? Do you see that it somehow sort of diminishes the prestige of the coveted prize?
25:08I mean you being one of the laureates?
25:11This is a funny situation but I tell you one thing. In last few weeks, many people started knowing me and respecting me and they learned that, oh, there is an Indian. He is a Nobel Peace Laureate. People understood the value of Nobel Peace Prize bigger than being the president of the Nobel Peace Prize.
25:36Other than being the president of the United States of America otherwise why he is after the prize. So it is good for me and good for many other Nobel laureates. So ordinary people understood the value of it. But everybody can do good work and get the prize.
26:03But prize should not be the end goal. When I received the prize people asked me the question that now you have become the celebrity, you have become the first Indian born Indian to get the Peace Prize and so on and so forth.
26:20But I said that this is just a comma in my life. This is not going to make an exclusive person, celebrity, khas admi, you know. It is a comma in my life. So I will keep on working and fighting for my cause.
26:39I would wish that President Trump can get the Nobel Prize but it requires other approach. It requires other mindset as far as I know other peace laureates. But I wish him all success in his life.
26:58Great. Sir, if we come back to India and I was going through a lot of speech and interviews of yours. You spoke about Devli and that day that you must have talked about it a lot of times. But I request you if you could revisit that incident and tell our viewers how exactly was it that she was saved.
27:23And what was that emotion that you felt when she said that why didn't you come earlier?
27:30Yeah. Which was the name of your book. Yeah. True.
27:33Why didn't you come sooner? Why didn't you come sooner? So it was in a Rajasthanic kind of dialect Hindi.
27:42That was her words. And whenever I feel about it, I feel that we as human race are not yet civilized. If one single child is in danger, how we can say that world is safe?
28:11If one single girl is left in slavery, how we can say that the world is free or democratic?
28:28There was an incident. There was an incident when I learned that some families have been kept in bonded labor and slavery at an illegally run stone quarry in Haryana.
28:46And that quarry was illegally run because it was essentially belonging to a very powerful family, political family, the chief minister and minister and one of the family members was a parliament member.
29:10So when we tried to approach the local authorities and tried to rescue them, no government official agreed to go there.
29:22And they completely denied that there is something like that. There is a legally run quarry or there are slave laborers.
29:32So we had to plan overnight and then we did some recce work in three three nights and then we realized that in the morning we can go and rescue those people.
29:43By the time we learned that there were children who were born and grew up there, there were parents who were also born and grew up there and their grandparents who have been enslaved were trafficked from Rajasthan to work in Haryana.
30:00So three generations. So three generations. So that was a very, very risky, very, very dangerous situation. But I love these kinds of operations.
30:09So me and my friends decided to go early in the morning knowing that this gunman or the watchman are not there in the morning.
30:24There was a man carrying the gun who could kill us, but he used to go to freshen up in the morning to the nearby village.
30:33So we went there and were able to rescue more than 50 children, women and men. We were having a truck.
30:44So all the adult people and grown up children were put into the truck. And I was driving my car, big car. So younger children, six, seven, eight year old, 10 year old, I think eight or nine children were pulled into my car.
31:07And when we were driving fast because if we are slow, then the world will go out and the people can come and kill us and snatched away the children.
31:18It had happened several times. My three colleagues have been killed. I mean, two were killed and one was dead. So I was driving fast.
31:31And then I saw that all these children were under shock, traumatized. So I thought that there are some bunches of bananas lying in the back of the car.
31:45So I asked these children who were sitting in the back seat that please eat these bananas and pass it on to the front row. So the child who was sitting in the back touched the banana bunch, but he didn't know what banana was.
32:10So he passed it on to the front seat. So children started looking at the banana and they started murmuring, what kind of onion is it? What kind of potato is it?
32:25They had no idea about banana or any other thing other than potato and onion since their childhood, since they were born.
32:33They did not taste it. So they did not understand. So then I insisted to eat it. I said, this is sweet. Please eat it. So they started eating banana.
32:49And then I saw that some of them trying to eat it. Some of them had no idea. So they were just putting in the mouth and throwing it away.
33:01And then suddenly I felt that how stupid was I. I did not teach them how to eat banana when they had no idea about banana. So I told them that please peel it and eat.
33:21So I taught how to peel it while I was driving with one hand and some of them started eating but most of them threw it away because they had no taste of sweet.
33:36Then suddenly I felt a heavy hand. It was heavy because it was a hand of a child. Eight-year-old child who was breaking stones with hammer. So her hand was like hammer.
33:55But when I looked at her, I could not express my feeling because so many emotions appeared on her face in one go.
34:10A sense of belongingness with the humanity, anger, deep sorrow, complain and some expectation.
34:24When she asked, why didn't you come? Oh man, why didn't you come sooner? It was not just because of banana.
34:39She has seen that how her father was poked with biddies, burned with biddies because he tried to stop, but he failed.
34:52He tried to stop the rape of his wife, this girl's mother. She has also seen that how her younger brother died in her lap because there was no medication.
35:11I knew this before. And I started crying. I could not hold myself. When she says, why didn't you come sooner? That was not the question to me. That was the challenge to everyone who believe in constitution, in laws.
35:29That was the challenge to all those people who believe in any holy book, in any holy man, in any religion, humanity. This was the challenge to everyone.
35:39Why didn't you say, why didn't you come sooner? Why didn't you come sooner? What stopped us? We can speak, we can write, we can do something, we can make complaints, social media is in our hands.
35:49But what we need is connectedness, awareness, feeling and action. And this is exactly compassion in my definition.
36:04So for young activists, as you speak of taking action, you know, doing something about it, what would be the, if I say something actionable from you, what would you suggest them if they want to come into this field and you know, in activism or in anti-human trafficking, what would be your suggestions to them?
36:21Well, there is no training for it. I mean, there are training for social work, there are training schools and so on. But what I am simply saying that to be compassionate is not such a difficult thing.
36:38The only thing begins with, say, very simple thing. Think of being grateful to someone who has helped you during the day. It can begin with your parents, it could begin with your teacher, your friends, your siblings, whosoever, your neighbour, relatives.
37:04Even if we are sitting in a room, then we have to be grateful to all those workers, the labourers, the electrician, plumber, woodman, craftman, those who have made this room or this house.
37:26We have to be grateful to all those who produce food so that we can survive, those who stitch our clothes which we are wearing. So, gratitude. Let us begin with developing the sense of gratitude.
37:40And that gratitude should lead to a sense of moral responsibility. That if we are grateful to our people who are surrounding us in our office, it could be our boss, it could be our junior subordinate, we should be grateful to them also.
37:55Because if I am sitting on a chair, if I am sitting in any position, it is not because of me alone, it is because of so many invisible unknown people who are responsible for bringing me over here.
38:07So, then we have to be thankful and we have to express our gratitude and that will help in deepening and broadening our area of moral responsibility to others.
38:26Yes. And then we will feel that we have to take some action. Words are not enough. So, we should take some action. So, in our surroundings, if we feel, we start feeling that we have some responsibility to others, we will become much more genuine activist than many of those who choose activism as career,
38:55activism is to go to politics or to grab power eventually. I think a good activist is also a good human being and every good human being is an activist.
39:11Sir, how did you stop yourself from all these thoughts? Did you ever think that politics could be the next step?
39:20No, no, no.
39:21I understand because we have such leaders in India, we have examples like that. I am not saying that that is bad, but did something like this come in your mind as well ever?
39:30Yes, of course. I would say that none of us is free from politics. Either we are in active politics or in passive politics. I am in active politics.
39:43My active politics is not for the next election or for a position or power. My politics is for the next generations and all generations to come. I wanted to see that all generations. Because what is the purpose of politics?
40:01Politics. Politics purpose is to serve the people, to do welfare for them, to ensure justice for them. That is the politics. That has lost the meaning unfortunately. Politics means power hungriness, power grabbing and so on.
40:17And so on. But my politics is simple that we have to work for children and their children and their children. So that when we leave this world, we will leave with a sense that whatever we have done, I have done, I have made little bit better this world.
40:38Wonderful. While we come to the conclusion of this interview, I also wanted to ask, from your early childhood, from the days of you witnessing that cobbler's son, your first experience of inequality or injustice, if I may say, to Nobel laureate and then all the way till now, has Kailash Satyarthi achieved what he wanted to?
41:01Not yet. I never wanted to achieve anything for me. Even for others. So that is not achieved actually. And it's an ongoing struggle, ongoing fight. Some people agree, some people disagree, some people ignore, some people oppose. But the fight is on, the struggle is on.
41:27Of course, of course, the very first day of my schooling was eye-opener for me when I saw a cobbler boy my age sitting right outside the school gate. And I felt bad or disappointed and asked this to my teacher, my mother, other people.
41:51Everybody tried to convince me and told that it is not uncommon. The poor children have to help the families. But every day I was watching that child under the open sky, sometimes alone, sometimes with his father.
42:12So one day I gathered all my courage and stopped and asked it to both of them. The boy was shy. I was five and a half year old and the boy was my age, maybe six or so.
42:28So his father stood up with folded hands. And he said, Baba Ji, I never thought about it.
42:40I never thought about it. My grandparents, grandparents and I started working since we were children and so is my son, he said.
42:50And then he took a pause and said, with utter miserability, hopelessness, helplessness. He said, Baba Ji, you guys are born to go to school, but we are born to go to work.
43:13And it was such a pain. And it was such a painful answer of him. But it was a very, very challenging question for me for the rest of my life.
43:28And then I realized that something is wrong in society. The divine cannot be so unjust. It is me who had created all these divisions and all these, you know, castes and communities and this and that.
43:45We are all one. So that sense of oneness went so deep in me, but also a sense of urgency to take action to do something.
44:03So that is still on. And that is the reason I have expanded my horizon of interventions and actions and advocacy and launched this new Satyarthi movement for global compassion.
44:24Great, sir. We wish you all the very best for this and for your future endeavors. Thank you very much for speaking to ETV Bharat. Best of pleasure.
44:32My pleasure. Thank you.
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