- 5 days ago
On this special report, India Today’s Gaurav Sawant speaks with Veena Naravani, author and former President of the Army Wives Welfare Association (AWWA), about the often-overlooked aspect of military grief. Discussing her new book series, 'The Memory Tree', Naravani highlights the unique complexities faced by children of uniformed personnel. She notes, 'In the case of military deaths, or deaths of uniformed personnel, what happens is that many more layers get added, many more complexities get added to this grieving process.' The conversation explores the transition from the 'cocooned' army environment to civil society, the role of the 'Paltan' or regiment in providing lifelong support, and the need for schools to sensitize students to the trauma of their peers. Naravani emphasizes that while financial and physical needs are often met institutionally, the emotional healing of the next of kin requires sustained empathy and a more dignified social dialogue from the nation.
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00:00There wasn't a dry eye when the mortal remains of Havaldar Gajendra Singh were consigned to
00:10flames. The young brave had made the supreme sacrifice of his life fighting Pakistan state
00:16sponsored radical Islamist terror in Jammu and Kashmir. And India has been battling whether
00:23it's Pakistan sponsored terror or an expansionist China or elements within our country for decades.
00:33And the mortal remains of our braves coming home is something that is extremely painful
00:39while it fills you with a sense of pride, their unparalleled valor. There is also grief,
00:47there is also pain and not much is either written or spoken about that pain. And with me on this
00:56special broadcast is Veena Naravne Ji. You're an educator, you're an author, you're former president
01:03of Army Wives Welfare Association. Ma'am, pain is something grief and especially military grief
01:10is something that is not really written about. It's not spoken about much. You know, we talk of the
01:18valor, we talk about the bravery, but not the pain of the next of kin. What made you think of it and
01:26write about it? Well, thank you, Gaurav, first of all, for having me on your channel. It's an absolute
01:32delight to be here. And just to answer your question, I have watched many military deaths happening
01:40over nearly 40 years of my husband's service. And with each casualty or death, there is, it's left a
01:49trail of grief in its wake for the families. And I have watched these, you know, what happens to the
01:56families after the deaths and the way they deal with the grief. Each family is an individual unit. So,
02:03you know, not the grief of the way of one family handles the grief may not be similar to another
02:09family handling that grief. So, it depends from family to family. And I've been watching this
02:14a lot over the years. And there was one time, I remember when I had gone to meet this lady who had
02:22just recently lost her beloved husband. And I was sitting with the lady and I was trying to console
02:30her. And I saw these two little children peeping from behind the doors, you know. So, I just called
02:37the children in. And I realized that for all the 30 minutes that I was with this lady, the two children,
02:43little children, they were intently watching the mother's face, you know. And that is what when it
02:48occurred to me, you know, that's when I started thinking of what is going on in these minds of these
02:54little children. How are they going to cope with this grief? What are they going to make of the situation
02:58that they are in? And what are the memories that they're going to carry to adulthood, you know.
03:03So, that got me thinking. And then, of course, I was mulling over all this for nearly six, seven years
03:08before I thought of writing this book, which is actually a set of three books. And we have called
03:15it the Memory Tree Series. And the three books are for different age groups. So, the first book is for
03:21the age group of five to seven. The next one is for the age group eight to 10. And the last one is for the
03:28age group 11 to 13. And, you know, while we, when we watch, you know, the last rights either on
03:37television or we report it, it's very painful, no doubt. But that's one aspect. For example, one of the
03:45memories that will always stay with me was the daughter of that brave officer when his mortal remains
03:52were being consigned to flames. You know, she shouted out the war cry of the unit. That is how attached
03:59children are to their parents and to, you know, to the war cry, to their regiment. But beyond that,
04:07yes, how do they cope? What have what were your, you know, as president of our or in various capacities
04:15over years? What do you see? So, girl, the thing is that, as I said earlier, it's very, you know,
04:22individual. But the, you know, the grief that these families or grief, let's say, is fundamentally the
04:32same for any child who has lost a parent, whether it is a parent in uniform or any other parent who
04:38dies, say, or died of COVID or maybe of cancer or whatever. So grief fundamentally is the same.
04:45But in the case of military deaths or deaths of uniform personnel, what happens is that many more
04:53layers get added, many more complexities get added to this grieving process. So the healing becomes,
04:59you know, more complicated, I would say. Now, I know the next question that you're going to ask me
05:06is how is it different? You know, so as you yourself said that you watched this girl who was saluting
05:12and was, you know, shouting out the war cry of her father's battalion. So the military deaths or the
05:19deaths of uniformed personnel are also public deaths. You know, the whole nation mourns these deaths
05:26and everybody from the defense minister or the prime minister will say something about it down to the
05:32MLA of that region where these, you know, the person, the soldier belongs. So they become very
05:40public deaths. On top of that, a lot of honours are also, you know, heaped on them. A lot of people say
05:46not many things. Now, what happens is that for the family and the children,
05:51children, this is a terrible personal loss. It's a unique personal loss, you know. So it's very
05:59difficult for small children to make sense of this, you know, while the whole world is,
06:04the whole country is trying to own this death. It's actually their father who's gone away or their
06:08mother who's gone away. So how it's very difficult for them to find a place of peace between the personal
06:15grief and the public, you know, mourning that is happening. So that is one thing that is different.
06:22The second thing I would say is that these soldiers, when they, you know, go away, they're
06:28also very healthy, you know, the prime of their lives, they're fit and they're healthy and they
06:33have state of the art weaponry. They have their armour, you know. So it's very difficult to fathom
06:39that how come a person who was so well trained and all has suddenly gone away.
06:44That's the second thing. The third thing is that the deaths many times occur in terrains that are not
06:51known to the family. For example, if an accident occurs on the road, the family knows where exactly this
06:56has happened and how it has happened. But in the case, these are in far-flung areas. So they haven't
07:01seen the terrain. So it's very difficult to have closure for the, you know, the children and the
07:07families to get that closure. Now, army as a whole. Yes. You know, I'm very privileged. I come from the
07:15same background and army background. So the army comes around a family in, in, in times of grief.
07:23Yes. But for how long can the army come around, you know, uh, uh, uh, like as president
07:28of AWA, um, how long because children feel very cocooned in an army environment. Absolutely. But
07:35once a soldier is killed in action, they can't stay in a cantonment for very long. Can they?
07:41That's true. They do eventually have to move out. But having said that, uh, the battalion to which
07:47these soldiers belong, that battalion takes on a lifelong responsibility, you know, they're always
07:52there in times of need. I remember a lady who had lost her husband quite early and her, uh, daughter
08:01was having an interfaith marriage and, uh, a lot of trouble was being not an interfaith, maybe some
08:07different castes or something. And there was a lot of trouble being created by both families, you know.
08:12So she just gave a call to the CEO and the CEO sent about five, six officers and they were all standing
08:17there and then nobody dared do anything, you know. So, uh, so the support that is given is lifelong.
08:24She's always these, uh, you know, the real nice. She's the Pulton's child. She's the Pulton. The, the children
08:29are the Pulton's children, you know. So, uh, they're always invited for any raising days and, uh, you know,
08:35things. So all that is there, but the families need much more, you know, they need much more. Now,
08:41of course, their physical, uh, safety and the benefits that get, all that is looked after.
08:46There is a system and, uh, institutionally, you know, all that. So the financial aspect is looked
08:51after. It's the emotional aspect that you are writing about. Yes. So emotional aspect of the
08:57lady, uh, the parents also sometimes, and of course the children. Uh, and that's what I actually
09:03wanted to achieve by bringing out these three books. So they are in a way, uh, stories that reflect,
09:09uh, what these children go through. And the stories also give a way of coping of, you know,
09:16I wrote them for the children to first of all understand what has happened. Then how to, you know,
09:21cope with it, how to heal from it. And I've given some practical ideas. In fact, one, one point that I
09:26really appreciated was it's almost like a handbook even for the elders, for caregivers, whether it's
09:32teachers or society on how a child can be brought out of that shell that they withdraw into. So tell
09:40me about that, that, you know, because as you said, you feel very reserved. Why did I lose a parent?
09:48And how do you bring that child out? What have your experiences been? So the thing is, uh, it is
09:54difficult, you know, and, uh, also like at the end of these books, I've given guidelines for caregivers.
10:00So I hope that this book will first of all, you know, help to, uh, for children to reaffirm,
10:07it will reaffirm what they're feeling, you know, and then they'll see themselves in those characters
10:13and see how the characters and what the characters are going through and how they have coped. So I'm
10:17hoping that will help. Second, these books are also for the caregivers, you know, the caregiver now could be the
10:24grandparents, could be the mama, masi or anyone or the mother, of course, uh, then it will also help
10:30counselors and it will help the teachers because teachers finally have to sensitize the other
10:36children. Schools. Schools. In schools. Because there's one instance of bullying of a child.
10:40Yes. In the school. Yeah. So these children eventually go back to the schools. So now the other
10:46children also need to be sensitized. Now that is one of the things, uh, again, a fallout of the absent
10:51dialogue because the other children don't know how to empathize. They don't have the vocabulary,
10:57you know, so many times when these children go back to school, uh, they have a sense of isolation
11:03because children don't know what to say. So they try to, you know, they kind of distance themselves
11:07from this child. So the child again feels very isolated, you know, that is another fallout of that,
11:13uh, you know, absent, uh, conversation. And so I have tried to, you know, bring all these things out
11:19and try to plug in a small way, this gap, which exists in our social dialogue.
11:25There's one part that I really liked, uh, you know, when I was reading this is when you write
11:31about recalling the valor of the father or the brave. I mean, that's a very beautiful memory that,
11:38that helps the child have very positive thoughts. So, you know, when, when other officers of the unit or
11:45other, uh, those who've been around the officer or the soldier, when they come together,
11:51they should paint that picture of what a beautiful human being the soldier was.
11:57Sharing of memories, you know, so many families, what happens is they withdraw, you know, and then
12:02they stop speaking about this person who's gone away. And each individual member of the family is
12:06grieving in his or her own way. So why not get everybody together and, you know, share memories,
12:12talk about the person who's gone away. So I've introduced this in one of the stories, uh,
12:18that how this helps the child, you know. So, and there are many such stories like these,
12:23all these stories have different themes, you know, and one of them is actually based on a lived
12:28experience, uh, and observed this family, uh, who lost their soldier. And, uh, uh, this lady, after a
12:37while she pulled herself together and she decided to learn to drive, you know, and I remember I was
12:45there living in the same colony where these, this family was. And this lady, the first time she did
12:51a solo round in the car of the, you know, with the, uh, where they were staying of the colony.
12:58And she came back. And when she got out of the car, I could see it in the eyes of those children,
13:04you know, they'd found a new confidence in their mother, you know, that newfound confidence that,
13:09oh, we are going to be okay. You know, dad is not there. We are going to miss him, but we are going
13:14to be okay because mom has learned to drive, you know. So this confidence came and this is what I
13:19observed in those children, you know. So in one of the stories in one of these books, uh, I've put a
13:25similar on this theme of the growing confidence that the child, uh, has.
13:29There's another very beautiful story, um, where you mentioned how bringing them out of the shell
13:36could also mean their following in their father's footsteps. Because I think all of us as 4G kids
13:42really hero worship our dads, uh, you know, uh, because he's, he's like the biggest hero for us.
13:49There are many, uh, children who, uh, you know, who have lost a father and who have joined the army
13:55and who have done very well, you know. So I wanted to bring that out and there could be no better way,
14:00you know, of, uh, sort of keeping his memory alive and, uh, by, you know, uh, other, you know,
14:06other than following in his footsteps. So many of the children do that, you know, they want to join
14:10and they want to be and then some want to go back to his battalion, you know.
14:14And go back to the same battalion, you know. So they have these feelings in them, you know.
14:19So it's a beautiful thing that happens. So that's why I put it in one of the stories here.
14:24Yeah.
14:24Because I know of another very brave officer's daughter, uh, you know, she had her father's IC number
14:31tattooed on her, on her hand.
14:34So that is her way of, uh, you know, keeping the memory alive, you know.
14:38And then she wrote about, uh, both the sisters wrote about the father.
14:42Yes. Yes.
14:43And, uh, and, and they now are now writing about other braves.
14:46Braves. Yes.
14:47Uh, in the, in the army. So that's such a beautiful thought.
14:50They've come out with books, uh, you know, I've written, in fact, when I was researching for this, uh,
14:56for these stories, I read the literature that has been written by these, uh, and other books.
15:00Major, major C.B. Dravedi's daughters.
15:03C.B. Dravedi's daughters.
15:03Then, uh, we also have, uh, left-hand colonel Romi Randhava, her daughter came out with a book.
15:09You know, so I've been through this book and that has been part of my research.
15:14And, uh, I realized, you know, what they have gone through in, at various stages.
15:18Then there's another thing, you know, that sometimes these families feel that, uh, uh, you know,
15:24was the, uh, loyalty that our father or my husband was feeling towards his colleagues, uh, you know, uh,
15:33towards the nation, towards the army, towards the regiment, towards the battalion,
15:36was it greater than the loyalty he felt for me, towards me, you know?
15:41So they, at some point, they do get these questions, you know, question this, you know?
15:46Because, yeah, because their loyalty to the nation was before family.
15:50Nation was larger or bigger. And then there are families that, you know, question that,
15:53oh, you know, why did he have to go into this? Why did he have to put his life, uh, in danger?
15:58And, you know, uh, so these kinds of questions do arise in their mind. Of course, you know,
16:03they must be getting around it in some way or the other, but at some stage in their grieving
16:08forces, they do question. There's another thing I wanted to ask you about, uh, though not here.
16:13Um, so while we talk about children and it's very important to talk about children,
16:18in many of these cases, the wives or the widows are also so young.
16:23Yes. Uh, you know, in their maybe late twenties, early thirties, uh, are we,
16:30are you in your, uh, you know, long, uh, stint of interacting with them, did the aspect of
16:37widow remarriage or how they can rebuild their lives once again?
16:40Yes. Is that something that you've thought of? Uh, you know, there has been a certain taboo on,
16:47uh, you know, widows remarrying. Uh, so the, the examples of widows remarrying, uh, are very few and far between.
16:55Okay. Sometimes in the, especially in the rural areas, what happens is that, uh, you know,
17:00you know, the chadar dalna bolte hain jise. So the, uh, widow may be, uh, you know, may get married to the, uh,
17:08younger brother or something. Few cases like that. But most of the time I have found family, uh, ladies rather,
17:16rebuilding their lives by skilling themselves, by, uh, getting a job, you know, the army, uh, the veterans cell also helps them to,
17:26you know. In fact, in some instances, they've become officers themselves. Yes. Some instances,
17:30they're motivated, uh, while they're in the military station, they're motivated by the battalion ladies
17:35that, you know, try or the, by the officers. If she is falls in that age bracket, you know,
17:39motivate her to join the, uh, the services, you know. So, uh, in some cases, they do that. They reinvent
17:47themselves. Re-invent. But having said that, there are, there's a beautiful case. I forget the name of
17:53the lady where a battalion officer, a young officer married her and they now have their own,
17:58their children. So, and he adopted the child from the first marriage and it's a beautiful story,
18:03you know. But these examples are few and far between. I feel as we go along and as, uh, you know,
18:09it's going to increase now, the widow remarriage aspect. I mean, there'll be more and more. How can
18:14conversations increase? Because, you know, uh, often when people say, uh, heartfelt condolences or
18:22Aum Shanti. Yes. Uh, how do you move beyond that to, to reassure the family that the nation is
18:29around them or, or, you know, they are not alone. Yeah. Uh, what, how do you take that conversation
18:35forward? What were your, uh, you know, thoughts on this? I think that we, we all have to be educated
18:41on this grief aspect, you know, because, uh, while, you know, there is a huge outpouring of,
18:48you know, grief and everybody is grieving, you know, at that time, the nation is grieving when
18:52such a thing happens. But, uh, what is it that you actually say to these families, you know?
18:58So, sometimes, uh, unknowingly and in good faith, you know, some things are said which actually don't
19:05help them. If you say that, okay, be brave, you know, your husband was brave. So, you also need to
19:09be brave, you know? But at that point, the family may not be really, you know, in that place where they
19:17are feeling, you know, brave or whatever, because after all, their world is crumpled to dust
19:21when their, their beloved, uh, soldier is gone away. So, saying this kind of thing, it's not,
19:27and I don't say it's unkind because you're saying it in good faith, but then it's not going to help
19:31them, you know? What helps? So, what helps is basically to be there for any grieving person. You just
19:39let them know that you are there when they want to, you know, for, and they have you to fall back on,
19:45you know? Nothing you can say that really helps and the person has to find his own way of coping
19:50and he, he or she will take time. The children will take time. So, asking them to, you know,
19:55you know, get out of it, you know, these kind of things don't help. I, I still remember I met a
20:05lady whose husband had died in the 1971 war and she was near, come 80 plus, you know? And when I went to
20:14meet her, she was crying like it had happened yesterday, you know? So, imagine and she was only,
20:21she said she was 14 or 15 years old when she was married, you know? Yeah. And she's still crying
20:27and she's crying like, you know, uh, like, uh, you know, really, uh, sobbing, you know, and that sorrow
20:35is so palpable and visible, you know? So, which means all these years, she's still grappling with it,
20:41you know? So, you have to be just there for that family when they need, uh, you know,
20:50they know that there's somebody who has that back. That's all you want to do, okay?
20:56What can the society do? Like the army you told us, the army or the armed forces,
21:00uh, and I'm sure when you mean the uniformed services, it's the central armed police forces,
21:05the police forces, the police force, uh, uniform, PSF, CRB, the firefighters, you know?
21:12In fact, I've included a story about firefighters in this, you know? So, it's all these people who
21:18lay down their life in the line of duty for the nation, you know? So, it includes all these people.
21:24What can civil society do? Civil society, first and foremost, when this death occurs, you must allow
21:32the family to have its space and keep its dignity intact, you know? And give them space to grieve,
21:40you know? Now, you, uh, you may have seen how the, you know, the whole thing gets reported in the
21:47newspapers on channels and so on. And, uh, the military is following its protocol. But then you
21:54have this whole, uh, you know, the reporters and they're crowding around the, uh, the people in that
22:01Gully Mohalla or in that village or whatever are crowding around, falling over each other. The
22:07reporters are trying to bring somebody from the, some family member out and are getting a sound bite
22:12on them. I've also seen Gaurav. I mean, you'll be surprised in one of these, uh, uh, you know, funerals
22:19that happened. There was this one man completely unknown to the family who's with his mobile phone
22:23and who's trying to make his way, uh, towards the coffin and trying to take a selfie, you know?
22:30No. So, whether, I don't know with what idea, you know? So, this kind of thing, uh, is not very
22:36dignified and it's not good for the family because after all, the family needs its last moments
22:42with its loved ones. So, give the family space and time to, uh, you know, look at their last, uh,
22:50you know, their loved one for the last time, spend some time with them and do everything in a more
22:54dignified way, you know? Absolutely. And allow for the military protocol to do the way they do it,
23:00you know? And then come around and always be there. And then come around, yeah. The second thing which
23:04really, you know, we have to, uh, as citizens do is that, uh, you know, a lot of the people,
23:13you know, they promise a whole lot of things to the widow, you know, that,
23:17you know, they start to promise and they do it in good faith because they are also feeling the grief,
23:24you know, um, you know, I will, uh, send your children, we'll give a job, give you a job or win.
23:30And sometimes those, uh, things don't materialize, you know? So, they kind of may feel cheated,
23:37so refrain from that. Refrain. Or make good that promise perhaps. Or make good that promise.
23:42Exactly. Yeah. I think that's the thing. And the third thing of course is, you know,
23:46honor that sacrifice. Now, how do you honor that sacrifice is by building a nation that is worthy of
23:52that sacrifice? Absolutely. You know, which is not divided on, you know, religious and, uh, caste and
23:58other, uh, you know, divisiveness is not there where, you know, the citizens are empathetic and,
24:04you know, where they are responsible citizens. So, we owe that to that, uh, you know, family
24:10soldier has laid down his life. I will let that be the last word on this part of the show, but that
24:15indeed a very beautiful thought. Conversations around grief, uh, to help the families come out of it.
24:23For joining me here, uh, on, on this special broadcast, uh, Veena Naravanji, many thanks.
24:29Thank you. Thank you so much, Gaurav, for having me on your channel.
24:32This is something that, um, a lot of people don't know how to deal, uh, with that grief. But then, uh,
24:39the most important aspect is, if you've made a promise, fulfill it, be around those families,
24:45and just ensure that they've given their most loved one for the nation. Look after their families.
24:55A quick break. News and updates continue on India Today. Stay with us.
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