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Eric King served almost two years at the federal super-maximum security prison ADX Florence in Colorado. ADX is often described as the US’s most restrictive prison, and it houses some of the most notorious prisoners in the world, such as Joaquín Guzmán ("El Chapo") and Terry Nichols, the Oklahoma City bomber.
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00:00My name is Eric King. I was held at the ADX, the only federal supermax in the United States.
00:05It's also known as the Alcatraz of the Rockies. And this is how crime works.
00:11As long as it continues to stay open, no one's getting out because that security is too tight.
00:16The cells are concrete and that means everything. Even if you got out of your cell,
00:20you're running into door, door, door, and then they are going to kill you.
00:24And that had a real impact on me, that level of isolation. That's a brutal situation.
00:30I went to ADX in August of 2022, the only federal supermax in the United States.
00:40The reason I was sent to federal prison was because during the Ferguson uprising,
00:44there was an empty government building in Kansas City, and I threw two Molotov cocktails at it.
00:50And it got me 10 years in federal prison. I was assaulted by a lieutenant at FCI Florence,
00:55and I fought back. And then they prosecuted me. They prosecuted me, trying to give me 20 extra
00:59years in prison. And so when I won at trial, I was supposed to be sent back to a medium security
01:03prison. And instead they said, actually, you have leadership status with some group on the left wing,
01:09which is outrageous. And so from that, that was their excuse to put me in ADX for the last
01:14year and a quarter of my bid. Historically, places like Alcatraz, that was the first federal supermax.
01:20A supermax prison is a prison that will hold you for 24 hours a day, all by yourself.
01:25So I was at the Oklahoma transfer center. So they wake you up at 4am and you land in Colorado
01:32and they march you to whatever bus you're going to be on. So then the bus, it's very casual. Then
01:37the bus just drives right to ADX. So the prison is tiny. It's a little baby prison, normal prisons,
01:43federal system have like multiple dorms. This is like a little red office building because most of
01:48it is built into the ground where we live. Nothing daunting besides the razor wire. There's an unbroken
01:55fence around the prison and the guards are walking out beside the bus with their guns. You're already
01:59handcuffed. You're already in shackles. They just have you walk off and march you right to the holding
02:04cells. When I arrived, there was just one other person with me. So the person I was with was a white
02:10GD, a gangster disciple. Once you're in the holding cell, they strip you out, make you get naked,
02:15squat and cough. Look at the bottom of your feet inside of federal jail or federal prison. You're
02:19given a number. I was 270-90045. The 045 at the end tells you where I'm from. That's Western District
02:27of Missouri, Kansas City. And so that number follows you no matter what institution you're at, no matter
02:31how many years you've been there. And so they walk you down this long slope. And when you're at the
02:37finally bottom of the hill, you're at C unit and they open the first gate, close it. Then they open a
02:44second gate, close it. And they walk you to your cell. And there's no keys to doors. It's all
02:49electronic. And they have it on the outside of your door. It has your mugshot, your status, and your
02:55number. And that's it. The outside door is a solid steel door. And your inside one is like the old
03:01school bars. And so they open both doors and you walk in. So once that door is closed and your cuffs are
03:08off, the guards step backwards and now you're not hearing nobody. You are on your own. And now
03:14you're doing time. You are there just stuck in this prison. And that's when you got to figure
03:19out how you want to do your do your bid. The amount of prisoners in ADX varies. I think it holds
03:29at most 470 something. When I was there, it held 350. So because it's such a hard process to get
03:36there, they never fill it. Those beds are empty. One of the things that ADX is known for is it's like
03:41almost celebrity prisoners. People like Ramzi Youssef. He was a part of the first World Trade
03:46Center bombing. Terry Nichols, of course. Eric Rudolph is another big one. Ted Kaczynski,
03:50the Unabomber. One of the biggest name people there is the one that folks know the most now,
03:54and that's El Chapo. And he is in H unit and Sam's unit. So his communication is dead.
04:01And then obviously Zardin Iev, the Boston Bomber. And then there's a couple famous mobsters that come
04:06in through there. There are different things that can get you sent to ADX. The most common one is
04:10leadership status. And they place that on anyone who has too much power, a high gang leader, stuff
04:15like that. Larry Hoover was there. He was the head of the GDs, the Gangster Disciples. Other ones are
04:21high profile. You have too much of a say. So that's where you get people like El Chapo, who's both a leader
04:27and high profile. If you're a jihadi, you get sent there, Richard Reed, try to kill 300 people.
04:33So those cats will all be there and have their own status. If you kill somebody in the Federal Bureau
04:39of Prison, people think that you can just get away with that. You cannot. You will go to ADX,
04:44no matter what. Or if you're a sex offender or PC person who just cannot be housed anywhere else
04:50due to immense violence or you're disrupting stuff like that, they will eventually have to put you
04:55somewhere. And it is sometimes ADX. And so you got the leaders, you got the terrorists, you got the
05:01mass murderers, and then you have me. So within ADX, and this is just my experiences, people from
05:09different gangs or different fractions, you're no longer beefing because you're behind doors.
05:14No one wants to be a cell warrior just yelling through the door, I'm going to kill you.
05:20Because the person that you're talking to may also like, they're also a killer. But if those doors
05:25open, that's out the window. And so the only fight that I knew of actually within ADX, it's rare,
05:32it was on a range and the orderly was out there. And while the orderly was out there, there's also
05:38what's called the law library. They opened that door too. And that cat was from DC. He was a DC black.
05:44And them and the Aryan brotherhood are vicious rivals still. And so it was a setup, the DC cat.
05:53And so the Aryan and him battled on this range. And they're like trying to get knives through under
05:58the door. And the guards have to like get their chemical weapons or the sword team to break it up.
06:04But that was just about the only fight I heard of. Something that shocked me was there's a lot of
06:09mentally ill people there. There are people that should never be locked down ever that desperately
06:14need help. You'll hear them screaming, crying, begging for help. And the administration will
06:20never give it because they don't care. And that's another shocking aspect is just seeing how
06:25disregarded the lives of the people are in that prison.
06:29There are gang members in ADX, and usually it's the highest status ones. But I know that the top
06:41echelon are in ADX. The MAs, the bosses of the Bloods, the head of the GDs, the head of the brand,
06:49that's Aryan brotherhood. Some of these dudes have been in there for 20, 25 years because they're so
06:54powerful that if they get out, the prison is afraid of what they will do. And they control
06:59hundreds and hundreds of people. So these are very serious cats that do not play games like D unit,
07:06E unit, whatever. I've heard that they put like a majority West Coast people. So it'd be like
07:10brand and then their affiliates. And the reason they do clumps is so they can hear. They want to hear if
07:17there's gossip. They want to hear news. And that's why they let letters into gang members.
07:21They're building a profile. And so they want this information. So we'll let you send a crazy letter
07:26so that we can get the crazy one back and know what's going on in the gang.
07:30And that's one of the big differences is that they are constantly collecting intel.
07:35In ADX, the way that you interact with gang members is the same way you would interact with
07:39anyone else. They are people and they are talking to you respectfully. And for someone like me,
07:44I'm not affiliated. I want nothing to do with any gang. I don't have that in me. I'm not built that way.
07:49But some of these dudes are. And as long as you talk to them respectfully,
07:53you will be fine wherever. You don't want to cross that line with them. You don't want to ask them
07:58weird questions like, what's your hierarchical structure? Who's your leader? You don't do that
08:04stuff. But like some of the old heads, they like telling these stories. Like they like telling
08:08stories like San Quentin and Folsom back in the 70s and 80s. And I absorb that information. I want to
08:14hear what you're saying, but I will not ask the questions. I will not put myself in a position to
08:19look even slightly suspicious because that's not my business. And one thing you learn in prison
08:24is that you mind your business, especially with these most serious cats. I'm on the left-wing
08:29spectrum when it comes to politics. And that's not very common inside federal prison. And I have
08:34left-wing tattoos. I have anarchy signs. I have different leftist affiliations tattooed visibly
08:40on my body. And that's stuff I do get nervous about. But for the most part, because it's behind
08:45doors, just like the other gangs have to get along with each other, they never said anything
08:50about it. Sometimes they would ask me how I felt about something. And this was usually in the step
08:56down or the release unit. Like, oh, did you see that piece of crap Biden do this? And I would just
09:03be like, yeah, he is a piece of crap. I don't care about Biden. And they don't understand that always.
09:07But I was very cautious because you don't want to make yourself a target ever. You don't want them
09:13to get to another yard and then say like, hey, I met this guy with an anti-fascist tattoo and he
09:20was a piece of trash. He's got a green light now. Green light means that anyone can attack you.
09:25You don't ever want that to be a target for yourself. So you stay respectful. You stay kind.
09:29You stay honest. You don't lie to them. And that just shows that like you can be a respectful standup
09:36guy. The most people are around. I was around would be cartel guys, jihadis and Texas yard gang
09:43members. There was never a bad interaction, even with people that hated my politics because like
09:49these right wing gangs, they don't like me. And that's like, we were from different worlds. I get
09:53it. But behind these doors, there was only kindness, only respect. And that's a good thing
09:59for people like me who do not want to have anything but chill. As long as this prison's been
10:10open, no one's gotten out. No one's getting out because that security is too tight. Everything is
10:16concrete. It's not underground, but it's built into the ground. And then it's just surrounded by the
10:21razor wire. So you're not getting through that cell. So ADX has some slightly different security
10:26stuff. Anytime you move, your hands are either cut behind your back or shackled in front of your
10:31waist. At a normal prison, if they call you to the lieutenant's office, you just walk. You got to go
10:37to the medical. You literally just walk right to medical. At ADX, you always have the two guards.
10:42They always have a hand on you. And so you go nowhere alone. You go nowhere without two guards.
10:47And if you're in one of the harsher restrictive units, like range 13, which is a further disciplinary
10:53unit, they'll have cameras in your cells. The cells are concrete and that means everything.
10:59So the beds are poured concrete. It's connected to the wall. It's on the ground. The roof is concrete.
11:05The walls are concrete. Sometimes there's a little concrete stool right by the desk. So you can sit
11:09uncomfortably and write. I never sat on that stool because it was so wildly uncomfortable. Usually
11:15everything's metal and people can do good things with that. You're not doing much with concrete.
11:20The window that they have is a very skinny, maybe three or four inches by two feet. At the very top,
11:29you can see a slither of the sky. Everything else, all you see is the side of buildings,
11:35the other units. I could do three steps and then four steps. And you got to find a way to exist in
11:42that little world. In regular prisons, you'll cell rotate, but it's usually once a year,
11:46maybe once every two years. With cell rotations, they do this in ADX and it's every two or three
11:52months. And that's in theory, so you don't get too comfortable, but also so you don't have time to
11:58plot your escape. So they try to make it seem like we're just digging holes and like old Shawshank
12:04redemption stuff. No one's doing that. We don't have metal. But that's their theory. It's to disrupt us.
12:10It's to disrupt your pattern. When you're going down the units, we call it a bubble and the guards
12:16do sit in and that's where they watch recreation. And that's who opens the doors. So if a guard
12:21wants Johnson out of C5, Johnson C5, and then the bubble guard has to make sure everything else is
12:27closed. You got two men and they pull you out and then Johnson closes your door. The guards then have
12:32to check in with the bubble. The bubble then checks to see, are you registered for medical?
12:37Well, because if you're not, then like, are these guards trying to break you out? So it's all bubble.
12:42They control everything at that, at that section. The prison for the BOP standards, Bureau of Prison,
12:48federal prisons is actually kind of nice. A lot of these prisons were built like in the twenties.
12:54It's over a hundred years old, but it does have a dirty old feel to it. At the ADX, they have different
13:00cell blocks or we call them ranges or units. And a lot of them are shut down now. There's like six left.
13:06And so I was on C unit. That is disciplinary unit. B unit is the control unit. That's for people who
13:13have a set sentence. They tell them you're going to be on this unit for five years, 10 years, four
13:18years, whatever. Um, and then they have H unit. H unit is for people on SAMS, special administrative
13:24measures. And those are almost always jihadis or people who ordered murders from prison. And then
13:31there's the elderly range. And that is called K B. There's a K A and a K B and K A is for pre-release
13:39people that are going home. And K B is for people that are never getting out. And then there's J unit
13:45and J unit is for people that are working their way out, but not for a long time, two, three, four,
13:51five years. But when I got closer to my release date, the last three months, they sent me to K A,
13:57the pre-release unit. And the only way that's different is that you get set time out of your
14:02cell with your group. I was there with a cartel guy and some PC guy from Washington, um, who had
14:09butchered people. So you get an hour out of your cell indoor rec with them. I made one really close
14:16friend and I won't say his name. Um, but it was N K A unit and he would talk to me through the door.
14:24He'd been in other prisons with people I knew. He was accused of transcribing, um, speeches for
14:31Al Qaeda. And so he got 18 years for that. And me and him would talk and talk and sometimes we
14:37butt heads, but we also had a lot we had in common. And when you have that kind of respect and mutual
14:41bond, you can develop a relationship and a close friendship. And we were able to, for those one
14:46hours a day that we got to communicate. The difference between guards and ADX and other
14:55prisons is just the two man hold because they have so much power because they control everything
15:02behind the doors. They talk more trash because they know you can't do anything about it. They
15:06insult your family more. And then they play those games with like the mail and stuff, knowing you can't
15:10do anything at a penitentiary. If a guard acted that way, it'd be bad news for them. They would
15:16have trouble, but in ADX, who cares? You're not going to do nothing about it. And I don't want to
15:21say it's every one of them. It's not everyone. It's probably 70%, but that other 30% don't do
15:28anything about it. So there were times where, um, a guard would ask me a question and I would forget
15:34that you need to look straight ahead. And I would turn just casually. Hey, Eric, did you see soccer
15:41today? And it'd be just this short a turn. And you're up against the wall. You're up against that
15:46wall fast. Don't turn your head in, mate. If you've got a history of violent assault, they're slamming
15:50you on the ground. You learn very quickly that some of them just treat it like a job. And it's usually
15:55people that have been there for 15, 20 years. And then there's the guards that think that they're in a
16:00gang because they are that guard group is a vicious gang. And these are the ones that will
16:06take away your recreation because they're mad at you. These are the ones that will rip up your mail
16:09or just drop it outside your cell. So you see it, but you can't have it. These are the guards that
16:13will intentionally give your mail to someone else. There aren't enough bad words to describe them.
16:18And I've had guards that were working, visiting, and I've had them sit my family at a different booth
16:24for 15 to 20 minutes. We only have a couple hours. I've had guards that made my mom who survived
16:30breast cancer, not give her a chair. So she had to just stand or sit on the concrete for an hour
16:38before I demanded like, mom, at this point, they're disrespecting me. You got to talk to them.
16:44And they do this on purpose because of the power situation. They feel that power. They feel dominance.
16:49They want to feel bigger than, and it is the most despicable profession I can think of. These are the
16:55same people that tortured me a couple of years earlier. I don't have a word for these people.
17:00When you're at the ADX, the worst thing you can experience is the isolation.
17:09You think that it's going to be the same as being in a shoe, but like you're not hearing
17:14your friends talk. And so the isolation feels different. It feels more intense. It weighs on
17:20you more. When you can't touch another person or interact or laugh, that wears on you. That's
17:25brutal situation. It's a quiet hell. And they call it that because it's so gosh darn quiet.
17:32You can hear streaks. If people are yelling loud enough, you can hear the pain that people have
17:37that they're expressing outward, but you're alone. So that shocked me. And that had a real impact on
17:43me, that level of isolation. And you're supposed to get your TV the first day. Cause that's a part of
17:48programming. It's a psychological program to make sure you don't lose your mind. I didn't get mine
17:53for two weeks and it was hard. No books, no radio, no mail, no magazines, no newspaper, no TV.
18:01So you are, you're just by yourself. And that wasn't what I expected because you're so alone.
18:08And because you're so isolated, you do start to get like, I don't want to say a dizziness,
18:15but almost like a minor vertigo to where like you do lose. Like, I don't know if I'm facing
18:20north or west. I don't know if I'm underground, above ground. I don't know anything. And ADX,
18:25the way that I stayed, what I would consider mentally strong was having my eye on freedom.
18:30I had a release date. A lot of people do not have that. I have people that are looking forward to me
18:35and counting on me being home. And then I had my five-star system. I ensured that I had dopamine.
18:41I ensured that I had a purpose. There is a psychology department. They will give you packets
18:45to read and try to help yourself. If you're having a really, really suicidal time,
18:51the psych person, like real talk was, was a very decent person. She, she seemed like she really cared
18:57despite the restrictions they placed on her. The hardest part about being in was not knowing what
19:02my family was going through. One of my lowest moments inside is when I thought I was going to
19:05release sooner. I was supposed to get out in September. And then at the last second,
19:10U.S. probation changed the rules. That hurt bad.
19:19And ADX, you're responsible for your space. No orderly is going to come in and clean your cell.
19:23They don't have a janitor. So if you get body wash soap, you use that. If you buy it on commissary,
19:30you use that to clean your cell, your toilet, and your shower. So you try to keep your cell as
19:35spotless as possible, but you also do that because if you're moving cells, because you do cell rotations
19:40every 30 days or 60 days, depending on what unit you're in. And when you cell rotate, you don't want
19:47to disrespect the person coming after you. And so the TV is a chain. Don't think that it's not.
19:52There are people that have lost their minds just falling into that world.
19:56They lose track of what's important. They stop caring about their actual existence and start
20:01caring about Sheldon's existence and Big Bang Theory or whatever. And that's a dangerous slope.
20:06When it comes to news, they have news stations. They have a right-wing one, a moderate one,
20:11and then what they call left-wing. And they have those until something pops off. When George Floyd
20:17happened, they cut the news because they don't want these prisoners to get motivated.
20:21They don't want us to get a little fire in our belly. So we have the news until we don't.
20:26There are some things that I guess could be considered bonuses to the cells. At a USP,
20:30your attention is fight or flight that you might get stabbed, or you might have to stab somebody.
20:34Because I'm a little guy, I don't like violence very much. I hate it. And I don't want to have
20:41someone try to book me. So not to prop this up as something good, but because I had a short time there,
20:49that would have been the one silver lining. That was at least the least bad thing.
21:01ADX is a well-run prison in the terms that it is supposed to be ran poorly. When Alcatraz closed,
21:09the next federal supermax became the USP Marion. That became a control unit because there was so
21:15much violence, so much radicalism. In January of 1995, they opened what was known as ADX,
21:25the Administrative Maximum in Florence, Colorado. The warden of ADX, when I was there, their job is to
21:30make money. So you're going to cut things like programming. You're going to cut the quality of
21:34the food. Food every single year, every single month. Worse, worse, worse, worse. Everything about
21:41that place is built to be trash. The food in ADX is still run on the Bureau of Prisons national menu.
21:48So on Mondays, you're getting the same thing you get everywhere. Wednesday is hamburger day.
21:52Thursday is chicken day. Friday is fish. That's the same every day. And the quality of it is what you
21:59would expect from a supermax prison, as in that it might as well be dog food. I was on the no meat
22:04diet because I used to be vegan. And so I would get a, on Wednesdays, I get a little veggie patty
22:10and it's horse food. And that's why people spend so much money on commissary. Everything's rubber
22:15because they don't want you to be able to sharpen it. You're not getting anything metal. If you're at a
22:20lower security institution, the food there is the best you'll ever have. It is cereal with milk and big
22:26pancakes and syrup. Even in the shoe, it's good. When you go up to the higher custody levels,
22:32a shoe in a penitentiary is almost inedible. When I was at USP Lee in Virginia, it was filled with ants.
22:38That's why I have ants tattooed on my face because I had to get acclimated when I was free because it
22:43cost so much trauma. But the food in penitentiaries is almost unedible and it mirrors the food in ADX.
22:50And as the national menu came and the food administrators started getting bonuses, they cut the food budget,
22:56which means the food gets worse and worse. The commissary is good for a lockdown situation.
23:01On a yard, if this was the commissary, people would riot. But because it's comparable to a
23:07shoe, a special housing unit, it feels okay. You can buy peanut butter, you can buy socks,
23:12you can buy sweaters. They used to do jelly. They got rid of it because they said people were making
23:16hooch out of it. So there's ways for people to make really good food because they have ingenuity.
23:22They can turn a bag of chips into a pizza. You can spend $100 a week. So some men have that kind
23:29of money. I don't. So I buy three bags of coffee that last me a month, two peanut bars that last
23:35me a month, a handful of candy bars, and then stamps. That's how you get stamps to write your
23:39family. So if you want to get ahold of your family, you can buy up to, I think, 40 stamps.
23:44They're called a book and they're $22, $24, whatever. And that enables you to be able to send out
23:50letters to those you love. In other prisons, you can walk to medical when you're sick.
23:54Medical will come around twice a day. That's where they pass out pills to people that need them.
23:59And the pills, sometimes if you have health issues, they'll give you well-button for mental health.
24:04Sometimes they'll give you tranquilizers because they want you to sleep. You never see the doctor
24:08until it's too late. I've seen men that had to go to surgery because things were so bad for them.
24:15And these people then had to get rushed to the hospital again because their blood got infected.
24:20I watched this happen three times on my own. One of the roots of my teeth died. And so I was in the
24:26worst pain I can imagine feeling besides the torture. And you ask for help. I asked for help for 10 days.
24:33No one cares. That's 10 days without eating. That's 10 days barely sleeping. And they eventually come
24:38and take you out and they pull it and they say like, it wasn't an emergency. Like that's the sort of
24:43stuff that you don't have to tolerate in a normal shoe. You can force that stuff in a shoe.
24:47In regards to recreation, you rotate days. One day will be inside. One day will be outside,
24:52depending on the elements. And the indoor recreation cage is on your unit. It's the other
24:58side of the hallway that you're in. And it's just a room. It's a room that's about the size of three
25:05of your cells. And it's got a dip bar in it and a pull-up bar. And then it has a little bench for
25:10you to sit on. It's not a bench. It's a concrete slab. And that's it. Outside wreck is the same
25:15way. You go into this dog kennel or a concrete box and you get an hour, maybe hour and a half
25:21to the guards of being nice. But that's the time where you can talk to people. Because if you do
25:26outside wreck on your range and you're on a normal range, they put you in dog kennels and there's
25:31three or four on each side. So that's the chance for you to talk to people. So that's why most cats go
25:36to outside wreck. And then the other option is screaming at the top of your lungs. And
25:41I hated that. I think I did it with one person for the Super Bowl. He bet for the Eagles.
25:48I'm Kansas City through and through. And so we bet on that to where now he owes me burpees.
25:53I've got 20 burpees on Chiefs. And then if he doesn't have his TV on and no one else is trying to do
26:00it, then he can yell back. And that's obviously very different because in other prisons, you can just
26:04casually talk through the walls. They have classes at ADX. Most 99% of them are over the TV. And so
26:10it'll be like Roman history. And you'll watch that channel. And it's just the basic like PBS stuff from
26:161980. So if you want to get points to maybe bring down your sentence somehow, you'll have to do these
26:22classes on the TV and they'll give you a booklet. You have to answer like a booklet question. It's so
26:27stupid. And if you turn in enough packets, you get like a treat, like a pack of peanuts and stuff like
26:33that. Um, if you have been in that prison long enough and you have a certain amount of good
26:37conduct, you can go to what's called the gym for classes. And it is like a, it's like, it feels like
26:43an empty gymnasium, I guess, but it's got five phone booths in it. And that's usually for like psych
26:48programs, like mental health stuff. But for those moments, you can talk to each other, which is
26:53interesting. Um, but that's for, that's such a rare occasion. I was never able to get into those.
26:59The people running the programs, usually the recreation department or the education department
27:03recreation runs like the fun classes, like here's crossword puzzles. And then the education
27:08department does all the other stuff. So you'll get the booklet or whatever they have for that class
27:13and you'll fill it out and then you'll turn it into the guard. And then they actually do review it.
27:18They will like write notes and stuff saying like, Oh, this is smart. Like, Oh, I'm so proud of you.
27:23And so it makes, it's infantizing. Like it makes you feel like a baby. Um, but at the same time,
27:29for some people, that's the only positive reinforcement they'll get all year, their entire
27:33lives. So there is a bonus in that for the people that need that at normal prisons, there's an actual
27:39library and you walk in and you actually get books and ADX, they have a sheet of, it's a paper.
27:46It has like four pages of paper and it has a list of the books that they have available.
27:50And you send a cop out to education department and you write down what book you want and what
27:57his number is. And if they have that book, they'll bring it to you. If not, you don't get a book that
28:03week. Um, and K a unit, the pre-release unit, you can email. Now the emails have to get approved by
28:09SIS, but you can send it. And then you can also buy an MP3 player. And so the Bureau of Prisons approves
28:16a certain group of music and you sit on the computer and it can't have cuss words or nothing.
28:21Um, but like, I download like Taylor Swift or like some emo stuff. Um, something to let me express my
28:27feelings. It costs like $3 a song. It's very expensive. Um, but that also gives you time to
28:32walk to other cells and non-release units is very difficult to interact. So you can talk to the
28:38orderly and orderly. And this is for all prisons and orderly is someone that their job is literally
28:44just to clean. You literally just come out for an hour and mop. I met some cool dudes through that
28:49too. One, like some of the head commissioners of the Nuestra Familia. Great guys. Um, I just get
28:55along with them so well. In that prison, you still have the same disciplinary, uh, expectations as in
29:07any other prison and normal prisons, no matter where you're at, whether it's a shoe or on a compound,
29:12you have to stand for count. They do multiple counts throughout the day before lunch, before dinner,
29:18and you have to be standing. But ADX, they're like, I don't care. They just see if you're there. They see
29:22the shape of your body. And that's it. There were countless hunger strikes at ADX. And it's almost
29:26always the jihadis standing up for themselves because the ADX would not allow some of the
29:31tenants of their faith. They would go on long hunger strikes and there was lots and lots of
29:35force feedings and they would force feed them like you hear about at Guantanamo Bay. And those,
29:39those men would be tortured. And so they would do deep hunger strikes like 30, 40 days. And I have
29:46nothing but respect for that because that's the level of determination that I don't have.
29:49My daily routine was based off my previous four and a half years in segregation. And so I would get
29:55up at six for breakfast or earlier and clean myself. And then I would eat breakfast. Then it's
30:01laps. I'm hitting laps. Thousand at least. And that's small laps. And then I would do my burpees. And that's
30:13a pushup, like a jump pushup sort of situation. And then I would take a shower. And then around
30:19that time, somewhere between 11 to noon is lunch. And then after lunch, my favorite show was on TV.
30:25And so that would be my TV time. And so then it's more laps, reading, taking a nap. And so from four
30:34to midnight, you are starting. Unless you save like your little meatloaf or whatever. And then after
30:39dinner, it is letter writing. I would intentionally write letters during that time. It had to include
30:45reading because your brain has got to stay active. And that's what kept me sane. I made a ranking system
30:52of like how good a day could be. In the morning, I would list every single thing that could go well.
30:57And that would include like, I cleaned well. The guards didn't harass me. Food was bearable.
31:01A perfect day would be the Chiefs one, Manchester United one. That's a five-star day. That's what I
31:06would call it. For me personally, my first year within ADX, I was not given a phone call.
31:16I was on what's called a communication management variable. And that's what led to me having tougher
31:21restrictions than some. I was given limited mail. It would usually be two to three months late and no
31:27visits. After about eight months, I was given non-contact visits back. And so my wife would
31:34have to drive the two hours from Denver and she'd get a couple hours in and then have to drive right
31:39back. And those, those visits are non-contact and you have to call on a phone so the guard can hang
31:45up on you at any time. They can cut the line in the middle of a conversation and shut it short.
31:49And they do, they do that sometimes. I was able to get maybe a visit a week and maybe two phone calls
31:55a month. When I would do the phone calls, it was in KA unit. And so it was only during my rec time.
31:59So it'd be either you talk on the phone for 15 minutes or you get recreation. And so what they
32:05do is there's a cell at the end of the unit and they open the door electronically. And there's one
32:10of our little phones in there and you have to pick it up, make sure the SIS guy is there. And then you
32:14type in your code and then, then they answer and hopefully you get a call. And if they don't answer,
32:19you're out. They kick you out of that room. And the other units in ADX, they will wheel the phone
32:24to your inside door. And so you take the phone right through the bars and do your old typing.
32:29And they'll give you two or three chances out there to get ahold of somebody. You can't just
32:33call anybody and they can say no, they can block you. But the phone calls, you have to get it
32:38approved ahead of time by SIS. And then my mail was always so far behind and they would, they would
32:45lose it or they reject some. You can't talk about certain stuff, but other stuff like they want to
32:50build a profile. So they do let in certain things that other prisons wouldn't, but then reject certain
32:54things if like they're too loving, I guess. Like they're weird. It's a weird situation, but with
32:59every single letter, no matter who you're, who you are in ADX, they are reading every single word.
33:04It's not like other prisons will just scan it and send it through. They have to run a lot of them by
33:09the FBI and your specific SIS officer. He's the one who determines whether you get your mail or not.
33:16It's just them. And so I had to pray that my SIS officer wasn't on some, some BS and would actually
33:22let me talk to my family. They're listening to every single word you say on the phone. They're listening
33:27to every single word you say at visit, because you might not be somebody, but you might know people
33:33who are. You might, your, your spouse might, uh, go to visit at the same time as somebody and pass a
33:39message that way. And they're doing this to build a profile. They want to know what the bloods are
33:43saying. They want to know who's passing messages to who at visiting, they have a concrete stool and
33:49you sit on this stool or you sit on the phone ledge and your partner or family, whoever it is,
33:54comes in, they sit on the other side of you in their chair or stool. And you have to pick up the phone
33:59and you have to dial a number. There's people there from all over the United States and their
34:03family has to fly in. And then if the guards decide no visits that day, they just waste all
34:10that money. Or if the guards say you said the wrong thing because they're being jerks or whatever,
34:15that's it. That's it. They don't care that you just flew in from Azerbaijan or Toronto. I've seen
34:20that happen and it's heartbreaking. Prior to ADX, I'd gone five years without seeing my family. I think
34:29I'd seen them like six times. And so your kids grow up. And so the first time my wife brought the
34:35kids to visiting, I didn't recognize them. And I don't think they recognize me because I had long hair
34:40now. I had a big ass beard and stuff. And so you have to like reconnect and that's hard. It's hard to
34:47like connect with someone for that hour or two. There was never a bad visit. With legal visits, it's
34:53slightly different because you are taken to a different part of the visiting room. Same room,
34:59just different part. And for me, I was always shackled during legal visits too, which was brutal
35:04because sometimes you have to sign things. But I would sit on the ledge and they have like this
35:09circle kind of like at a bank with like the slits through it. So you would get the legal visits that
35:13way in a slightly bigger room. It's still got the cameras in it and everything, except for you can
35:18just talk through the little slits. It's all non-contact. You're never touching them. And they
35:23have to make sure the prison knows ahead of time that they're coming.
35:31What led me to ADX is a very long, detailed story, but it led with an assault in a mop closet
35:38where I was assaulted by a lieutenant at FCI Florence and I fought back. After the fight with the lieutenant,
35:44I was taken to a room and it's called a four point room. And I was chained to a bed and the letter X
35:50chained up like this, your legs and your arms are stretched as far as they can go.
35:55And it's the most immense pain I've ever felt in my life. And I was left there for seven hours.
36:01They prosecuted me trying to give me 20 extra years in prison. And I took that to trial. And then I won at
36:07trial. Less than 1% of prisoners ever went or people in life ever went at federal trial. And I did.
36:14And so when I won at trial, I was supposed to be sent back to a medium security prison.
36:18And instead they said, actually you have leadership status with some group on the left wing,
36:23which is outrageous. And so from that, that was their excuse to put me in ADX for the last
36:29year and a quarter of my bid. Um, it was for leadership status the same way as the top gang
36:34leaders. When I was being transferred to ADX, I thought it was a joke. The reason I was so shocked
36:39and thought they were joking is because I only had less than two years left. And so it made no
36:43sense to me while someone was such a little bid would have to go to a prison that is known for
36:48housing, the worst of the worst, these infamous people, these big time people that you hear about.
36:54And I did not fit that bill. So it, it confused the hell out of me. When I showed up there,
37:00the literal only things I was worried about was getting set up by the guards. I had that previous,
37:05uh, violent assault, they said on a Lieutenant. So I, even though I won that case in trial,
37:12like I won, um, but they don't care. So I was always worried about the same guards saying I was
37:19trying to escape saying, I made a move on them. Just any excuse to bash me with a baton.
37:24So my first probably two or three weeks, I ripped off part of my sheet and I tied it amongst the bottom
37:31part of the inside cells. So they're like this, you can't open that door if it's tied shut.
37:38So that way, if they tried to sneak me in the middle of the night, I would at least have some
37:42warning. I could strap up or get ready to fight. Um, and that was my big concerns. I would say to
37:47my younger self, if I had a chance that you're doing good, you're doing well. The only way you
37:53will win this bid is by continuing to love life and love yourself and your family. So don't let them
37:58steal that from you. If I could say one thing to people in the free world, it would be to please
38:03picture prisoners as someone you love. If your grandparent, your father, your mother, your brother,
38:09your partner, if they did something horrible in the eyes of the state or government and they were
38:13placed in prison, how would you want them to be treated? Then please apply that with every single
38:18person inside because they are that to somebody and they deserve to be loved. And that is how we grow
38:24as a society. So please treat prisoners as well. And with empathy, I was released from ADX on December
38:3513th, 2023, ADX doesn't hold very many people. So a lot fewer actually get released. And it's rare.
38:45It's rare that you get a glimpse into that prison without having to give them so much of yourself.
38:49So many decades of your life. When I was in the pre-release unit, there was seven people and
38:56it was good knowing that there were seven people that were going to get out there,
39:00but it was also sad knowing that there was 343 that weren't. The hardest part about getting out of ADX
39:06was being around people. People being close to me was triggering. My daughter would like sit near me
39:12and that would burn my skin almost like, don't touch me right now. And you have to unlearn that.
39:17You have to de-institutionalize and trying to convince little kids why it's important to clean
39:22the rooms, why it's important to do dishes, why it's important to not have trash around
39:27because what if someone comes in and sees it? What if someone comes in and wants to hurt us
39:31because our room's not clean? And so it was deprogramming myself so that I don't have
39:36my prison brain on children. And I never did it in a bad way, but it was always there here.
39:42My little one had to teach me to use QR codes. And that can make you feel really dumb.
39:46It can make you feel like the world doesn't want you anymore, that you are the worst of the worst
39:51and you don't belong to this society anymore. And that's hard. That's hard to shake. And a lot of
39:57people don't shake it. And that takes me a while. I get lots of therapy, lots of like mood stabilizing
40:02medicine, because if I don't, I don't want to revert back to that, Eric. A lot of people aren't able,
40:08they don't have a loving system. But if I didn't have support, I probably would have been back in prison
40:12because like, I need help. We all need help. Since I was released, I got the opportunity to be a
40:20paralegal. People gave me an opportunity to be a paralegal, which I'm grateful for. And I was also
40:26able to get a book deal with PM Press. PM Press believed in me. They gave me a chance. The title
40:31of the book is called A Clean Hell, because that's what a warden described it as. He said it's a clean
40:37version of hell. And I couldn't agree more.
41:07So I was able to get an Dallas, and you know what to knock outpm, which is where I got
41:13on. What is the challenge? You know what you're doing? What do you think about this thing?
41:16Looks like to be like, uh,ри, what sort of thing? I feel like arguing. I got on my level
41:19and I see where I've been watching it. I haven't seen it. I'm just me even
41:21philosophers. I was surprised. I don't know, I always afraid I 그렇죠, because it's
41:26trying to commissions. I'm not me. What ahos I in here. But I'm just trying my
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