Religion Solves Morality?

Stefan Molyneux

Stefan Molyneux takes on the notion that true ethics must come straight from God's orders, pointing out how morals drawn from holy books end up being pretty subjective, with people interpreting them in all sorts of ways. He responds to someone's worry about what happens without divine rules by noting that, unlike hard science, religious morals don't hold up the same across the board. Drawing from Christianity, Islam, and Judaism, he shows how followers disagree on basics like forgiveness or following divine laws. Molyneux digs into the past tensions between these religions and the mixed messages in their ethical advice, which makes him doubt whether divine say-so really settles right and wrong. He pushes people to think about their own biases in judging morals and cautions against leaning on religious teachings to back up decisions, suggesting instead a closer look at one's own sense of ethics.  Chapters: 0:00:00 Objective Morality Debate  0:01:31 The Illusion of Divine Guidance  0:03:18 The Complexity of Forgiveness  0:05:27 Personal Experiences in Christianity  0:07:55 The Flaws of Medical Ethics  0:11:35 Religion and Subjective Morality  0:14:35 The Nature of Religious Interpretation  0:16:46 Historical Context of Religious Morality  0:22:45 Narcissism and Delusion in Belief  0:28:11 Challenges to Religious Certainty  0:29:38 The Limits of Religious Morality   GET FREEDOMAIN MERCH! https://shop.freedomain.com/  SUBSCRIBE TO ME ON X! https://x.com/StefanMolyneux  Follow me on Youtube! https://www.youtube.com/@freedomain1  GET MY NEW BOOK 'PEACEFUL PARENTING', THE INTERACTIVE PEACEFUL PARENTING AI, AND THE FULL AUDIOBOOK! https://peacefulparenting.com/  Join the PREMIUM philosophy community on the web for free!  Subscribers get 12 HOURS on the "Truth About the French Revolution," multiple interactive multi-lingual philosophy AIs trained on thousands of hours of my material - as well as AIs for Real-Time Relationships, Bitcoin, Peaceful Parenting, and Call-In Shows!  You also receive private livestreams, HUNDREDS of exclusive premium shows, early release podcasts, the 22 Part History of Philosophers series and much more!  See you soon! https://freedomain.locals.com/support/promo/UPB2025

Transcript

00:00All right, two thoughts. Maybe we'll get to two. I'll certainly get to one.

00:04So, there's somebody who emails me at least once a week making the case that UPB does not prove

00:10ethics. Ethics can only be grounded in God's commandments. That only God can remove subjectivity

00:19and relativism from ethics. Well, that is a very interesting observation, and one which I've

00:27touched on here and there, but I want to take the brain canon directly at the broadsides of this idea

00:34that with God, with God, with God, you get objective ethics. I strenuously disagree. Now, with science

00:46and with physics, you get objective answers if they're validated. They're true all over the world.

00:51Indian mathematicians and Sri Lankan mathematicians and Chinese mathematicians and European and

00:58American, I'll say two and two make four. Scientists all over the world say that gravity is a property

01:05of mass, gases expand when heated and things fall to the earth at 9.8 meters per second per second.

01:09All over. That's objective. There are 10,000 gods, at least in the minds of man. And I would argue

01:20there are as many gods as there are people, because everybody has their relatively subjective

01:27interpretation of what is meant by God's commandments. So, when you say God brings objectivity

01:37to morals, you have a problem in that God, God, most manifestly does not bring objectivity

01:47to morality. Even within the same religion, even within the same denominations, even within the same

01:55church, there are wild disagreements about the meaning of religious texts. People in Islam disagree

02:04with people in Judaism disagree with people in Christianity, the various subsets of Christianity

02:09disagree with each other, even within those subsets. There are further divisions. And it is almost

02:14impossible, in fact, I would say, functionally and practically, it is impossible to get any two

02:20religious people, even if they're in the same family, to get any two religious people to agree

02:28on what constitutes ideals in religious virtues. Is it thou shalt not kill? Or is it just war? Is it

02:39turn the other cheek? Or is it an eye for an eye? Is there hell? Is hell eternal? Is there redemption?

02:48Can people be redeemed on their deathbeds? Is it good faith or good works? Did Socrates go to heaven?

02:54I mean, I won't go into all of the religious debates and arguments, but everyone can look at even the

03:04Bible, Old and New Testament. Everyone can look at the Bible and they can all decide on different

03:10things and place their emphasis on different things. Is Jesus soft and forgiving? Or is Jesus hard and

03:18demanding? We can't even agree on what forgiveness means in Christianity. Is forgiveness, does it have

03:26to be earned? Or is it granted outside of being earned? There is no particular agreement on this at

03:34all. Just look at the recent Erica Kirk situation of a couple of months back where she, within a couple

03:40of days of her husband being shot through the neck by a deranged gunman, forgave him. And Trump and J.D.

03:47servants and other people, mostly men said, well, I guess they're better than us because we don't

03:52forgive. Is forgiveness or punishment the ideal? I have talked about Christian ideals for many,

04:03many years. Those Christian ideals being if you have a problem with someone, sit down and talk with

04:09him or her. This is what I've counseled people do if they have neglectful, abusive or destructive or

04:14toxic parents, according to what they say. Obviously, I can't verify what people say, but that's what

04:19they say. And I say, well, you should sit down with them and you should have repeat conversations

04:24with them until you solve the problem or you don't solve the problem and don't want to continue the

04:32conversation. And then you don't have to see them. That is straight up Christianity.

04:38People think I invent stuff. Yeah, I invented some stuff, but not that one. As Christianity very

04:45explicitly says, if you have a problem with someone, sit down with him, try to work it out.

04:52If he doesn't, if he doesn't listen, if he doesn't accept or repent, then bring a few friends,

04:59bring a few trusted friends, talk to him again. If he still won't repent or admit faults,

05:04and if everyone agrees he's at fault, then bring him before the whole congregation or bring the

05:09whole congregation before him and go over it again. And if he still does not admit fault or

05:16repent, cast him from the congregation, cast him from your life. Un, deux, trois, eins, zwei, drei.

05:23One, two, three. Three chats and you're gone, baby, gone. Now, why am I passionate about this?

05:30Well, because, you see, I grew up in a Christian culture, in a Christian country. I was on the

05:36choir. I went to church two or three times a week, at times, in boarding school in particular,

05:42and this is what I was taught. And then when I became a podcaster, I said this to people

05:49straight out of the Bible. And in the absence of having allies within the family, if you're not

05:57part of a congregation, what did I say to people? I said, well, if you're going to confront your

06:01parents over misdeeds, or any family member in particular, but, you know, most essentially

06:05your parents, if you're going to confront your parents regarding their misdeeds, then you really

06:10should have a therapist if nobody else is on your side. You should engage with a therapist to make

06:15sure that you're doing the right thing and being reasonable. So all of this was straight up

06:21Christianity. As I learned, as I was taught, as it is written. And what did everyone say?

06:30Not everyone, obviously, but what did the media say? What did people say? Oh, he's running a cult.

06:35Okay. So if in a Christian culture you give people advice from the Bible and people say you're an evil

06:44manipulative cult leader, that's a little fucking confusing, isn't it? This is our holiest book.

06:51This is commandments from Lord God Almighty. This is infallible ethical advice. Oh, here's the ethical

06:57advice you should take that's right out of that. Oh, that's evil. Oh, monstrous. Monstrous. It's like

07:05going to medical school and being taught that this is the most perfect way to take out

07:14an appendix. You cut here, you separate here, you cut here, you remove here, you stitch up.

07:20And you are taught this year after year in medical school. And then what do you do? Well, you go out,

07:29you practice like crazy, and you repeat it. You go out into the world and you do exactly what was taught

07:37to you in medical school by the most perfect, world-renowned, excellent, magical, infallible

07:43doctors known to man, God or the devil. Say this is the absolute best way. There's no better way to

07:50take out an appendix than to do it this way. And you go out and you do it exactly that way. You do it

07:56exactly the way that you were taught. You're told exactly is the absolute best gold standard of

08:02healthcare and medicine. The most perfect and brilliant doctors all approve. Your teachers approve.

08:07Everybody approves that this is exactly how you take out an appendix. And you go out and you take

08:12out an appendix and people throw you in jail for trying to kill people. And then they say,

08:19well, I mean, come on. Medical school is the only way you can learn how to be a good doctor. It's like,

08:24no, no. I went to medical school. They taught me exactly how to do this, exactly the best way to do

08:28this. I would have failed if I didn't do it that way. I go out and do it. And then I get sued and thrown

08:34in jail for malpractice and trying to kill someone. What are you doing? Well, I'm doing what I was taught.

08:39No, that's evil. So, if I apply Christian principles in a Christian country, and I, of course,

08:49have not come to set mother against child, parents against children. I mean, Jesus said I have come

08:55to set sons against their parents and parents against children. And so, that's not my goal.

09:00My goal is just virtue and truth. So, if in a Christian society raised in a Christian context,

09:06I am told what is the good, right? And then I publicly state what is the good. And everyone

09:15tells me I'm an evil cult leader, then don't try to tell me that Christianity solves the problem of

09:24subjective ethics. Don't try. I mean, I'm sorry, I've experienced, I don't mean to laugh, but you know,

09:31it's a long time ago now. But I have experienced quite the exact fucking opposite of any kind of

09:38consistency. Forgiveness is central to Christianity. And after 2,000 years, nobody can really agree on

09:47whether forgiveness has to be earned. I went through this on X a couple of months ago, when I

09:54pointed out that nowhere in the Bible does it say you should forgive someone if they do not repent.

10:03That's right there in the Bible. And this is not a very subjective thing. This is an objective thing

10:08because it's not contradictory. Nowhere in the Bible does it command you to be virtuous

10:15by forgiving people who have done evil and not repented. It's right there. And then I mention

10:23this on X. And all the Christians come pouring down my throat, telling me I'm absolutely wrong,

10:31that people must be forgiven, and that's virtuous, and I'm bad and wrong. And I cite them Bible verse

10:39after Bible verse. Commandments from God, from Jesus, from the saints, from church fathers,

10:44you name it. No contradiction. Does it change their mind? It does not. There was not one instance

10:53where somebody said, forgiveness must be provided without being earned. And I point out all the verses

10:58where it says forgiveness must be earned. Not one person out of the thousands I interacted with. And

11:05that's not a small sample group. A lot in America, but all over the world. People say,

11:11this is my holy book. I believe. God commands me to forgive without the evildoer repenting.

11:18And I point out that nowhere in the Bible does it say that. And in fact, it says the exact opposite.

11:23Does it change anyone's mind? It does not. So that's subjective ethics. I like forgiving people.

11:30I feel good forgiving people. I don't like to withhold my forgiveness until people have

11:34earned it for whatever reason. That's what I like. That's what I want. And almighty God

11:41cannot convince that level of envy otherwise. The relationship between Christianity and other

11:48religions, particularly religions like Islam, where there has been historical aggression,

11:53really largely on the part of Islam. What is the relationship between Christians and Muslims?

11:59Well, historically, it's been one of combat and Muslims have invaded and, of course, taken over

12:05significant sections of Europe for hundreds of years. The holy lands were taken over. The crusades

12:13were defensive in general. And that's the historical relationship. However, the Pope is washing the feet

12:21of migrants and praising Islam. So that's a little confusing. Because people prayed to God who said,

12:29go fight Islam and eject them from Europe or the holy sites. And now the Pope, who has a direct

12:36path to God, a direct communion with God, now says that that's not the case. So the people who prayed

12:46to God and God said, go fight the Saracens, and then the people who now pray and God says, do not invite

12:54the Saracens, invite them in. That's a little confusing. Why would there be opposite? Because

13:01remember, without God, all morality is subjective. Okay. So a good scientist, if you show data to the

13:10contrary, a good scientist will change his mind. A scientist may not believe that a bowling ball and

13:20an orange, when dropped from the Tower of Pisa by Leonardo da Vinci fall at the same rate.

13:25However, if you go and drop those things, and he sees that they do, if you take out wind resistance,

13:31things fall at the same rate. He will change his mind because he has been presented with different

13:37data. I cannot, in the history of my life, and I have done a lot, hundreds of thousands of public

13:46conversations. I have yet to come across a religious person who changes his mind based upon

13:54data in the Bible. There should be zero debate or issue over whether forgiveness is commanded without

14:05atonement, without the admitting of fault and restitution. It is immoral to forgive someone who has

14:14not asked for forgiveness, who has not admitted fault and admitted wrong, because it removes from

14:19them the requirement to admit fault in order to get back in good graces. God does not forgive those

14:26who do not repent. God nowhere commands people to forgive those who do not repent. In fact, he commands

14:31quite the opposite. Forgive them if they repent. Seventy times seven. So, the reason why God does not solve

14:40the problem of subjective morality is not just the ten thousand gods. It's not just the different

14:45view of religion held by males and females as a whole. It's not the subjective interpretation that

14:53everyone has out of generally ambiguous texts. It is that people cannot be commanded according to the

15:04all-powerful. People do not believe in God. People do not bend themselves to the will of that which they

15:18call the Almighty. What they do is they do what they want and find justifications, and if no justifications

15:27are to be found, they make them up. Religion, as a whole, promotes narcissism, because, by all evidence,

15:38by all evidence, if people are praying to God, and God has given the Ten Commandments, not for

15:43the local time, not for Tuesdays at three o'clock, but for all time in all places, right, because when

15:49Christians go to the New World, then they don't say, well, I mean, this is the New World.

15:55Well, Christianity wasn't meant for here. Christianity was specific to the Middle East and

16:00Ireland. No, no, no. Christianity is everywhere. Christianity applies everywhere and forever.

16:06It's universal. You don't get saved in a different way in Alaska or the equator.

16:14Christianity is eternal and universal. So, if it's true that people pray to God and God gives

16:21answers and God has given us universal eternal ethics, then the answers that God gives to people

16:30should be the same, in the same way that scientists who perform the same experiments should get the

16:36same results. If you drop an orange in a bowling ball from various places around the world,

16:42they'll fall at the same rate, always and forever. It's eternal.

16:46So, if people pray to God and say, should I forgive Charlie Kirk's murderer, the answer should be the

16:55same because the morals and virtues are the same. So, that would be an indication that morality comes

17:03from God and morality is objective. People pray to God and God gives the same answers to everyone.

17:11I mean, there used to be these video game helplines that you'd call up and for a couple of

17:15cents a minute, they would give you the answer to a particular puzzle you had in a video game.

17:20Okay, good. Well, you don't get a different answer every time you call up, right? One guy says,

17:27oh, you jump on the flaming block and then swing from the meat hook in the sky. They have to say that

17:30to everyone. They can't say the opposite or something completely different. And that's just human

17:35beings. That's just calling up a helpline. It wouldn't be much of a helpline if you told every

17:40person something different. Sort of pointless, right? Yeah, rip off. So, it does not solve the

17:47problem of moral objectivity to say, God, go to Christians and ask them specific moral questions.

17:55I will give you another example. In 2003, America invaded Iraq, a sovereign nation committing the

18:05international war crime called aggression, which is just about the worst thing you can do, which is to

18:09attack and invade another country who poses no threat to you. And they said, well, we know for

18:16sure that there are weapons of mass destruction there. Yet Donald Rumsfeld waving his hands around

18:24saying they're north, east, west, south of here. They know for a fact you've got Colin Powell giving

18:29his big presentation to the UN. We know exactly where they are. We know what they are. We know that

18:34there are weapons of mass destruction, 100% guaranteed. It's a slam dunk, Mr. President.

18:39Thou shalt not kill. Thou shalt not bear false witness. So, that's pretty obvious as a horrifying

18:47crime that killed well over half a million people. It was lies to say that they knew where the weapons

18:54of mass destruction were because they weren't there. That was a lie. And therefore, it was not a

19:01defensive war and it violated times 500,000 thou shalt not kill. Now, the Christians, conservatives as a

19:11whole, tend to be quite favorable towards the death penalty for murderers. And this would include

19:18people who hire murderers, right? Even if they don't kill themselves, they hire hit men and so on,

19:22right? Okay. So, it's an eye for an eye. When you take a life, your life is forfeit. What if you take

19:30over 500,000 lives? Does that matter? Because that would be about as evil a thing as you can do.

19:39I mean, a really prolific serial killer is going to kill 50 people. You know, we're talking 10,000

19:45times more than that. 10,000 serial killers, plus, plus, plus. Not to mention the genetic damage from the

19:54depleted uranium shells. The people who got sick from lack of health care. Hundreds of thousands dead.

20:02Hundreds of thousands maimed. Thou shalt not kill. Thou shalt not bear false witness.

20:08Does George W. Bush fit that category? Yes, he does. Did the people who lied America into a war,

20:18do they carry that moral burden? Yes, they do. And yet, there came no particular cry from the

20:25Christians about this. Some of the people who were the architects of this absolutely beyond mass

20:35murdery moral horror were still welcome at Christian conservative conferences. How the fuck does that

20:42solve the problem of moral relativism? To cause the death of half a million people? Thus, thou shalt not

20:51kill is explicitly violated in just about the worst conceivable way. Thou shalt not bear false witness.

20:58Lying a country into war? Well, what has happened? Nothing. There has been no generic church cry

21:07for trials against those who architected this crime against humanity. And many of them are still

21:16welcome in conservative circles and speak at conservative events and so on. So, do Christians,

21:23I'm sure that George W. Bush is still welcome in his church. I'm sure that he's still welcome

21:29to give speeches at conservative events. Fool me, can't get fooled again. What does this mean?

21:39How is thou shalt not kill solved when a man, and it wasn't just him, but other men and other women,

21:49lied America into a brutal and unnecessary war that killed half a million people? And there is no railing

21:57against him in particular from the church as a whole. He's not shunned. The churches aren't saying,

22:04well, we've got to have these trials, because thou shalt not bear false witness. Thou shalt not kill.

22:10Why not? I mean, that's pretty clear. It's a pretty clear one, right? If George W. Bush had killed the

22:17guy, stabbed him in the head or whatever, killed the guy, well, the conservatives, if he was just a

22:24private citizen who killed the guy, the conservatives would all be like, death penalty, jail, trial,

22:30prison, injection, eye for an eye. But they don't hold those principles, with the state as a whole.

22:40So tell me how the problem of morals is solved through religion. See, if there isn't a God,

22:48and we all have to accept that that's at least a possibility, then religion swells narcissism.

22:56Why? Because if there is no God, you are praying to something you consider eternal,

23:03omniscient, and all-powerful that doesn't exist, which means you're praying to the part of yourself

23:10that is deluded and psychotic. And you are placing it in authority over yourself. Because if someone

23:18came in to a hospital and said, I am God, I am all-knowing, I am all-powerful, I am eternal,

23:26and I am all-good, he would be viewed as psychotic and would be medicated. Well, he would be, right?

23:33Okay? So, if you pray to a God that you believe is all-knowing, all-powerful, all-perfect,

23:42cannot make an error, cannot ever counsel evil, then you are praying to the part of you that cannot

23:48admit fault. Because generally introspection is when, ooh, I'm not really sure, I've got to weigh

23:54things in the balance, I don't know. But if you are praying to the part of you that never admits any

23:59doubter and never admits any fault, then you are, in fact, placing in charge of your decisions

24:05the least healthy part of your consciousness. Because if you're praying to God, and what comes

24:12back from your unconscious is, ooh, I don't know, it's hard to tell, I'm not sure, it's complicated,

24:17there's, you know, factors on both sides, arguments for both cases, blah, blah, blah. You say, well,

24:21that's not God, because God is all-certain, all-knowing. God doesn't weigh things, he's not uncertain of

24:26things, he knows. So doubt, which is healthy, is replaced by absolute certainty without knowledge,

24:37which is very unhealthy. Because, you know, the people who are on the right are complaining quite

24:44a bit about the people on the left and saying, oh, but, but they, they're so certain and they're so

24:50wrong. And it's like, but you're praying to a God that gives everyone different answers, which is

24:56impossible. You understand? It's impossible for God to give people different answers. You say, ah,

25:04yes, well, but some are coming from God, and some are coming from the devil, and some, some people

25:08aren't even connecting with God, blah, blah, blah. But that's not an answer. Most people who pray,

25:13pray with great sincerity. And if you are contacting the all-knowing, then you should get the right

25:19answer. Right? So back in the day, if you didn't know someone's number, you'd call directory

25:22assistance. You could say, what's the number of Bob at 30 ABC Court? Oh, here's his number. Now,

25:29if they just gave you a different number every time you called, then there would be no purpose to that.

25:34It would either be malevolent that they knew Bob's number but wouldn't give it to you, or they just

25:38made up numbers to make a buck when you called in. Be wrong. Be bad. That would be terrible.

25:43So, if God gives different answers to everyone who prays in, then you have not solved the problem

25:50of subjectivity. You've made it kind of psychotic. Because everyone who prays to God thinks that the

25:57prayer that he or she gets answered is God's will, and therefore is not open to negotiation.

26:03Like this Mormon woman, Hildebrand, who teamed up with the mommy blogger from Eight Passengers and

26:10said, God has sent me with the perfect answer on how to solve your marriage. Turned out, she and the

26:17mommy blogger were horrendous child abusers who tortured and starved children. And they're now in

26:24prison for, what, four to sixty years for multiple counts of second-degree felony child neglect and abuse.

26:33But, and they operated within the, I think largely within the Mormon community.

26:40And, this woman, Hildebrand, said to her clients, I've been sent by God to solve your marriage and I

26:49have the perfect solution. God has told me the solution to your marriage. Okay, how are you going

26:53to argue that? How are you going to argue that? If you believe in God and you believe that this

26:58woman, Hildebrand, was sent by God with perfect knowledge on how to fix your marriage, this is

27:03how many marriages, this is why she was able to destroy so many marriages. Because if you pray to

27:08God and God says, no, no, she's not a good woman, she's using my name in vain, blah, blah, blah.

27:12Well, how are you going to prove it? So those with the most doubt end up with the least, the fewest

27:23answers. Because if you prayed to God and you had good faith, you were faithful and you believed in

27:29God, God got answered your prayers and you'd have absolute certainty. Because you can't get any more

27:35certain than absolute certainty from an all-knowing, all-powerful, all-good entity. There's no higher

27:41standard of truth or proof that could be conceived of. I'm open to the answers. But, you know, in my

27:49seventh decade, seventh decade, almost, I look for what accords with the evidence. If there is a God

27:57who's all-knowing, all-powerful, and speaks to people and gives them rules, then those rules should

28:03be more certain than the rules of physics. But they're not. People who pray to God should get the

28:09same answers, but they don't. If there is a God, then why are there ten thousand gods that people

28:16believe in? Are there false gods? Okay, well, say nine thousand nine hundred ninety-nine are false

28:23gods. But that other one, man, totally not false. What accords with the actual evidence? Why is it

28:30that when people who believe in Christianity, when it is absolutely proven to them that forgiveness

28:38requires repentance, that it is wrong to forgive without repentance, without the person who's wronged

28:43to repenting? Why do they continue to argue? I have given them the text from all-knowing,

28:51all-good, all-honest God, and they argue, which means they don't believe. And this is consistently

28:56true. I cannot think of a single Christian or religious person I've ever confronted with a

29:00text, and they've said, oh, you know what? I didn't. You're right. Of course, right. I mean,

29:05not you're right, but you illuminating God's truth is right. God can't be wrong, and you've given me

29:09what God said, so, right, it doesn't happen. And that's because by praying to yourself, you are

29:14inflaming your vanity. You are praying to the part of you that thinks it's God, which is desperately

29:18unhealthy. And because you're inflaming your vanity, you can't be contradicted. Because you can't be

29:24contradicted, because you can always just go and say, well, I'm going to pray again. Oh, look, God now

29:27agrees with me. You don't have to submit yourself to anything objective, which is why they generally

29:33don't, because you can just pray and get the answers that you want. So, the idea that religion

29:41solves the problem of relativism and subjectivism, that religion makes morals as clear and as

29:48objective and as universal and as absolute as the laws of physics, which took mankind millions of

29:54years to discover, the idea that God solves the problem of morality is, I mean, I wouldn't say it's

30:02ridiculous, because that's an insult to ridiculous. Just look around the world. Has religion solved the

30:07problem of subjectivity in morality? No. And if you disagree with me, just find someone online who's

30:15religious, who's making a mistake according to scripture, tell them that they're wrong, prove

30:20them that they're wrong, and then see what happens. They will do what they want. They will do what they

30:27want. And that's not objective at all. And that's the problem I'm trying to solve.

30:32Freedomman.com slash donate. Thank you so much.

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