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00:00Welcome to the Traitors Uncloaked, hosted by me, Ed Gamble.
00:04We are now at the halfway point of the series, and my goodness, is the heat on.
00:08If you haven't watched episode 6, do that right this second.
00:11Head to BBC iPlayer to catch up, and then you can come back here.
00:15Alright, spoilers are happening now.
00:18With that warning out of the way, I can safely play this...
00:21Of course, the Traitors siren, as the second traitor of the series has been caught,
00:28the lovely Fiona.
00:30What's coming up, I hear you ask?
00:31We see the moment faithful Rhys met with traitor Fiona to find out the identity of the Traitors.
00:37They'll both be here later to discuss their time playing the game.
00:39Plus, to dissect this jam-packed episode, I'm joined by celebrity faithful Charlotte Church
00:44and series one traitor, Amanda!
00:51Welcome. Welcome to Uncloaked, both of you.
00:54Thrilled to have you here on, of course, what I'm calling the Welsh special.
00:58Fantastic.
00:59Fantastic.
01:00We almost need Charlotte from series 3 as well.
01:03No.
01:04No?
01:05Absolutely not.
01:07No fake Welsh people.
01:08No, she isn't a faithful Welsh, is she?
01:10No, we've got a lot to talk about today.
01:15Traitor Fiona turning on traitor Rachel and unfortunately losing the battle
01:18and faithful Rhys being murdered in what they described, very kindly, as a mercy killing.
01:24But first, we've got to start with the ending, the faithful winning the chance to talk to the traitors.
01:29What an incredible twist.
01:31In a series that has been twist after twist.
01:33Were we seeing anything like this coming?
01:36I mean, I think that it's really surprising from Matthew.
01:40Yeah.
01:40I wasn't expecting that sort of strategy from him and I don't think anybody else will.
01:46I think that's why it's clever.
01:48Yeah.
01:48My spidey senses were like, he's going to have to be recruited, but I wasn't expecting the first question.
01:53But then how he uses then Jesse is almost like, what is that?
01:58What is he doing there?
01:59Is it so that he can, so he knows they're going to go along with it?
02:03So it's almost like a little breadcrumb and the direct question of, you know, who are you going to murder next?
02:11And I want you to be truthful with me was very direct with that, you know?
02:15Yeah.
02:16Yeah, it was fantastic gameplay by him.
02:19Yeah, totally.
02:20I'm glad it was smart players who are going in and have been in there to ask the questions
02:24because I'd waste a question on how are you.
02:29Well, if I was a traitor, I'd hope to someone say like, what colour socks are you wearing or something like that.
02:33The cliffhanger at the end with Matthew waiting for the answer as to whether they would recruit him.
02:41Clearly the traitors are going to say yes.
02:43Do you think?
02:43I think Rachel might think, if you can do that blatantly, what could you do to us if we recruit you?
02:51Yeah.
02:51You're going to throw us under the bus.
02:53I think she might think that way.
02:55So I don't think it's a definite yes from her.
02:58If Matthew gets seduced, do we think he can trust the traitors?
03:02I think he can trust Stephen.
03:06I don't think anyone can trust Rachel.
03:08Yeah.
03:08But can they trust him?
03:10Now, we actually have Harriet's questions next week.
03:12We'll be able to see what Harriet asked the traitors.
03:15Do we have any sense of what she might have asked?
03:17No, not really, because I think she knows that they're going to light.
03:21She wouldn't ask them something like, where are you from?
03:23You know, what nationality?
03:24Where are you from?
03:24Yeah, where are you from?
03:26Do you live next door to each other?
03:29I don't know what she...
03:31She might ask them what their favourite kill was or something, their favourite murder,
03:37because then she might work out relationships of, you know, who was close to who.
03:43So, I think she'll ask more questions down that line than direct questions like Matthew.
03:49Yes.
03:49Because she does think that they're going to lie anyway.
03:52She's not also going to try and plot and join the traitors like Matthew has.
03:55No, no.
03:56But she's going to wait till the end if she can.
03:58Yeah.
03:58She's got it sorted out that she's going to stay the quiet faithful, and then if there's
04:04those two left at the end, she's going to throw them into the fire pit.
04:09Yeah.
04:09So, not even the bag, she's going to put the full traitor.
04:12Yeah, put them in the fire pit, yeah, totally.
04:14Well, that's burning very red.
04:16Yeah.
04:17The other huge aspect of this episode was, of course, secret traitor Fiona has blown up
04:22the whole game and she got caught.
04:24So, she'll be with us shortly to talk about it.
04:26But, we really have to just go back an episode briefly and talk about Fiona versus Rachel.
04:32Yes.
04:32When Fiona called out Rachel in front of everyone.
04:35Could you believe what was happening there, Charlotte?
04:37I just thought it was, oh, iconic and wonderful.
04:44I absolutely adore her.
04:46She's so mischievous.
04:48Yeah.
04:49And really, like, beautifully representing the crones, which is what she said she's come
04:55in to do, to represent older women.
04:57And I just think, oh, go on.
05:00She's got lots of spark and sass.
05:03Yeah.
05:04Did you think, Amanda, there was a chance that she could have beaten Rachel?
05:08I hoped there was.
05:10For us, well, she's, you know.
05:11I'm just glad she had the balls, may I dare say, to go head-to-head outright with another
05:19traitor, you know, and show her that she wasn't going to just take it lying down.
05:23Now, there's so much to unpack with Fiona, but before her and Rhys join us, let's enjoy
05:28when the pair met after leaving the castle and Rhys found out who the traitors were.
05:31What was the reaction like when I didn't go down to breakfast?
05:47It was utter shock and disbelief.
05:49It's like, what's going on here?
05:52Because it just seemed like an unnecessary murder.
05:55I was just so amazed as to how people would take it, because I still think after, obviously,
06:00the banishment of Amanda and the whole Chester chants, the deadlock, there was enough people
06:04that were convinced still that I was a traitor.
06:06So the fact that it took for that to happen for you to realise I'm not, I remember just
06:12laughing and I just feel like, well, what are they going to do?
06:14Because I was just so excited to see how everyone's taken it.
06:17So, who, Rhys, do you think are the traitors and how many do you think there are?
06:23If I'm to make a decision now, I'm still not even really convinced.
06:27Jack, Ellie, Rachel, and then I think they started with four, so obviously Hugo was one
06:33of them.
06:34So Hugo, Rachel, Jack and Ellie.
06:35I'm interested to know what you think I am first.
06:39So with you, I think you're a faithful, I think, but by all means, what are you, a faithful
06:45or a traitor?
06:47Well, I am.
06:51You ready?
06:53Yeah.
06:53A traitor.
06:56No, you're not.
06:57Yes, I am.
06:58I am.
07:01And I just was playing cat and mouse with you.
07:04Oh, my God.
07:07Yes.
07:07And you said about, you spoke about Hugo, you stabbed Hugo in the back.
07:11Did you not even think?
07:13Obviously, you have inklings on everybody, but I would never, I don't, if I'd had to put
07:17money on it, I would never have, that has thrown me off.
07:20So, Friis, I obviously haven't been working alone.
07:24Oh.
07:26So, on the table, the first scroll.
07:29I'm going to take this.
07:30Take it.
07:31Oh, I'm scared.
07:32I'm very scared.
07:34You must be scared.
07:36I'm scared.
07:37You will be.
07:38Okay.
07:39This is nightmarish now.
07:41Oh, God.
07:43Oh, my God.
07:44Go on, boy.
07:46Oh, my God.
07:48Okay.
07:48Steven.
07:56But do you know the funny thing about Steven?
07:58Oh, my God.
07:59He just cannot lie.
08:00He'll get caught.
08:01Yeah, he'll get caught.
08:02I think he will.
08:03Okay.
08:06Okay.
08:12It is Rachel as well.
08:13I literally knew it.
08:14I knew it.
08:15Oh, so my whole carriage.
08:18Yes.
08:19You were surrounded.
08:21Oh, my God.
08:22I knew it.
08:23I literally knew it.
08:24There we are.
08:26Oh, my God.
08:29And Fiona and Rhys are with us now.
08:34Welcome.
08:34Welcome to Uncloaked.
08:36It's incredible to have you both here.
08:38Now, that was a great clip.
08:39Enjoyed watching that.
08:40Rhys, very shocked that Fiona was a traitor, clearly.
08:43Why were you so sure that Fiona was faithful?
08:46Naivety.
08:47Just written all over my face.
08:48No, I think I really try to clearly see the best in people.
08:52And people just let me down, don't they?
08:55It's fine.
08:56It's fine.
08:57Now, Fiona, not only are you a traitor, you are the first ever secret traitor.
09:03What an honour.
09:04Yes.
09:05An absolutely huge thing.
09:06Can you talk us through how you felt when Claudia gave you the red cloak?
09:09No, how I felt.
09:11There aren't words to describe how elated, thrilled, chuffed, all of these just wonderful endorphins were rushing through my brain.
09:24I didn't know what to say.
09:25Honestly, women of a certain age normally have tenor.
09:28I don't.
09:29You're 28, aren't you?
09:31Yes.
09:31I keep forgetting I'm 28.
09:33But honestly, it was just amazing.
09:37Watching it, I was like, that is the best seat in the house.
09:42That, like, secret traitor when you're literally playing your own game.
09:48You haven't got to worry.
09:50You're not in that sort of furrowed brow state of the faithfuls, of the, like, constantly besmirched faithfuls.
09:59But your, yeah, secret traitor just seemed like, I was like, I can have a bit of that.
10:05I loved it.
10:06We obviously never got to see you making your decisions as the secret traitor in your little secret traitor hidey hole.
10:12Were you just loving it, or was there any...
10:14Absolutely.
10:16Absolutely.
10:17I had no qualms at all about putting people's names on the list,
10:23because I was just giving them little fish, little fish to feed on, isn't it?
10:28They had to decide what to do.
10:31Yeah.
10:31Yeah.
10:31Can we talk through some of those shortlists, because we never got to hear your thought process behind the shortlists.
10:36Right.
10:37So for the first murder, your shortlist was James, Natty and Maz.
10:41Why did you choose them for the first murder shortlist?
10:43Well, Maz is so lovely, you know.
10:46So killer.
10:46He's so lovely, he had to go on the list.
10:50A mercy murder.
10:51It's another one.
10:54And James was just such a character.
10:57He was throwing names around from day one.
10:59So he had to go there on the list as well, because he was causing chaos, which is a good thing, from a traitor's point of view.
11:12So it was just giving them food for thought.
11:14And Nettie is so lovely.
11:17She's a teacher, and I love teachers.
11:19My son's a teacher.
11:20But perhaps I just took it out on her, because she was a teacher, and it was a way of kind of just having a jab at my son, who I loved dearly.
11:33Well, for the second murder, there was Ben, and of course there was Rhys.
11:37There was.
11:38And Maz again.
11:39Well, I just thought it's better to double up.
11:42Yeah.
11:43It would confuse the traitors if you put the same names down twice.
11:46Yeah.
11:47So that's how poor Maz had it.
11:50I didn't feel Ben would fetch much money to the table, so I put his name down as one to go to, one to consider.
12:01But you do need the money, don't you?
12:03Yes.
12:04Yes, you do, Fiona.
12:05But of course, with Ben as well, which is what caused a lot of chat about Stephen, was that Ben had said, if I get murdered tonight, then you've got to look at Ross.
12:13And you were in the library, as was Stephen.
12:16Was there a reason for putting Ben on the list because of that as well?
12:19No, not really.
12:20So you caused all that chaos by accident.
12:23Throwing darts in the dark.
12:25It was all the money.
12:27Rhys, I want to talk a little bit more about your game.
12:29You came under a lot of heat during the game, especially during the missions.
12:34Yes.
12:35In episode four, you were one of the faithful up for murder in the cages.
12:39But Fiona was, of course, the one protecting you, getting the skulls.
12:44Protecting me.
12:45Getting the skulls.
12:46And you told Fiona to give away the skulls that she collected for you already.
12:50That put you under some suspicion.
12:52And you chose to eliminate your own shield in the Spear the Beast mission as well.
12:57I mean, I was half expecting you to try and vote for yourself at the round table.
13:00I think it wouldn't have been too far-fetched from what was coming.
13:03I think it was coming.
13:03Talk us through your game plan in those missions.
13:07Why did you do that?
13:07It's so hard to sit here and map out a game plan.
13:10You very much get thrown in the deep end regardless if you're a faithful or traitor.
13:13It just happens.
13:14You just turn up there and you're like, oh, well, I'm here.
13:16So it's like you can have a map out of what you're going to do and it just all goes straight out the window.
13:20And I remember just being a bit, that first night being very like, well, this is a deep water and I've just got to learn to swim in it.
13:25Because everyone's doing the exact same thing.
13:27So I was appreciative of that.
13:28But very quickly learned that I don't have like a complex of, if somebody's like accusing me of something, if I'm innocent, which I was, I just didn't defend myself.
13:36So I was very like, okay, well, I'll just be selfless then.
13:38I'll just take on the selfless things.
13:40Amanda, would you have used Rhys's decisions like that against him?
13:43You could be honest.
13:44Yeah, absolutely, yeah.
13:45I mean, you were throwing yourself in the deep water, weren't you?
13:49And you weren't swimming.
13:50You were just going around in circles, yeah.
13:53But I would say with the skulls mission, I think you had so little chance of actually getting out of that cage that it makes sense to give the skulls away.
14:02How, I mean, can we talk about that mission a little bit?
14:04Because it's one of my favourite moments of the series so far.
14:07When everyone else is running around getting skulls, you're sat in a cage and Fiona's having a country war.
14:10I don't know where she was.
14:11I don't know where she'd gone.
14:13I didn't see her once.
14:13I think where's Fiona is one of my favourite quotes of the whole series so far.
14:18And you're just sort of like pumbling around, holding one skull, just having a nice day out.
14:22I really did want to help him.
14:25I really did, Rhys.
14:26I'll never believe that.
14:27I did, I did buy.
14:30But I just couldn't find the skulls.
14:34You were in no rush either, Fiona.
14:36You did your best and that's all the best.
14:38I did my best.
14:38We've got a many treasure, handsome wheels.
14:40I think Rhys, you solidified yourself as a faithful at that final round table the night before you were murdered.
14:48Did that make you worry about what might be in store for you?
14:53Being in the kitchen that night after the round table with Amanda's banishment, I was just pleased that other things were going on.
14:59Obviously, there's people shouting across the room that other people are liars.
15:02It was very much, okay, well, someone else is talking and getting battered.
15:05So I was very, in that environment there, because again, I put myself up for murder in the day.
15:09I didn't anticipate being murdered, clearly.
15:12Was like, okay, well, someone else can get a bit of their turn and we might talk about somebody else for a little while.
15:18I think it was your genuine reaction to the chest of chance.
15:21I'd like to think so, yeah.
15:22Because everything, again, I pride myself on authenticity.
15:25Everything that I felt in there was just what felt right at the time.
15:27Whether it's correct to do or not, who knows.
15:29But I think, and it was nice to see that they did talk about it in Turret, that it was, you need to get rid of me now.
15:35Because people were almost the exact 180 on me.
15:38They're like, okay, there's definitely, definitely now.
15:40If it's not now, then when will he go?
15:42Well, that was one of the reasons.
15:44Let's remind ourselves of some of the other reasons why the traitors murdered you.
15:48I think because we've been really, really brutal with so many killings,
15:52I think maybe a little mercy killing wouldn't go amiss right now.
15:56I think so.
15:57We can be nice up here.
15:58Put me down like the old family dog.
16:01Put me down like the old family.
16:02I'm limping around the kitchen.
16:04Put me down.
16:04Do you think as a traitor they might have a slightly warped view of what nice is?
16:09There's no way that there's a nice bone in that turret.
16:11Not a single, all three of you are like,
16:13I'm laughing your heads off, enjoying yourself.
16:15This is brilliant.
16:16I'm sweating.
16:17I'm sweating.
16:18I'm crying.
16:19Like, no, not a chance.
16:20Do you have anything to say to Fiona after seeing her?
16:22I've said everything I need to say.
16:23Fiona, you said that Rhys was either a great traitor or a crap faithful.
16:32Yes.
16:32How does it feel now, sat next to Rhys on the sofa after you've murdered him?
16:37I was over there.
16:38Say it to me, Rhys.
16:39And the thing is, you were a traitor, so you knew you wasn't a great traitor.
16:41Yes.
16:42So you were just calling him a crap faithful lady?
16:43Just calling him a crap.
16:46Everything I said was true.
16:48I appreciate an honest lady.
16:50I appreciate an honest lady.
16:51Now, what was it like that moment?
16:52Because I think we all adored that moment when you finally got to reveal yourself to Stephen and Rachel.
16:58Oh, it was so funny.
16:59How did that feel?
17:00Because I did not think you would go in that hot to say,
17:03I've been doing your job for you for the last few days.
17:05She was on job from me.
17:07Yeah, I believe, haven't I been wonderful was the first thing I said.
17:10I know.
17:11It was so Sally Field at the Oscars.
17:14At least she's modest with it.
17:16At least she's modest.
17:19So going in, initially, I wanted to keep the red cloak for as long as I could.
17:25I was a little bit apprehensive thinking, well, I don't know what they've been discussing.
17:30So I'm going in cold now.
17:31It's very much as when somebody's been recruited.
17:34You are going in cold because they've already got their bonds.
17:40But it was great when I was there.
17:42Charlotte and Amanda, did either of you guess that Fiona was the secret traitor?
17:46I did.
17:46You did.
17:47What gave you the clue?
17:49Because you were too joyful as a faithful.
17:53Because a faithful is normally a bit more serious.
17:56And I thought she's got to be the secret traitor because she's enjoying this too much.
17:59And I was desperate for Claudia to put the red cloak on a Welsh person.
18:04I thought it's got to be.
18:05So, yeah, I just, you were a bit too joyful to be a faithful.
18:10Fiona, were you trying to help the traitors with your shortlists?
18:13Yes, but I don't think they thought that.
18:15No, they said, well, I think they were just annoyed about the whole secret traitor thing.
18:19Yes.
18:19To start with.
18:19Middle management, as Hugo said, wasn't it?
18:22That's a brilliant saying, isn't it?
18:24Had you made your mind up about what they were like as traitors from watching them around the castle?
18:29Because obviously you knew who they were.
18:31They didn't know who you were.
18:32So are you observing them and trying to work them out during that period?
18:35Stephen is just a darling.
18:37He's an absolute darling.
18:41You could not love Stephen.
18:44He's so wonderful.
18:45Rachel is canny.
18:47Oh, my goodness.
18:48She's going to be the Queen of Ireland.
18:49I can see it.
18:50She is an amazing player.
18:53Absolutely amazing.
18:55And I love Rachel to bits.
18:57But I'd seen that Rachel was the danger to me.
19:01Or I'd felt.
19:02Yes.
19:03And I always go on my gut.
19:05So I listen.
19:06We do have to talk about where your downfall began.
19:09Yes.
19:10Being suspicious of Rachel's story about Amanda being an ex-detective.
19:14I did not see this coming.
19:16I did not know what was going to happen.
19:17Can you please talk us through what happened that night?
19:21And indeed, did you really think Rachel was lying about Amanda telling her that?
19:26No, I knew she was saying the truth.
19:31I absolutely knew she was saying the truth.
19:34And I trusted her explicitly.
19:38However, I'd had my suspicions on Rachel.
19:43And I thought that if anybody had taken your saying, if anybody's going to throw me under the bus, it's going to be Rachel.
19:51So it's best, if you play poker and you have a rubbish hand, you're not going to keep putting money in the kitty.
19:59You throw the hand down, isn't it?
20:01And I thought, that's what I'm going to do here.
20:03I'm going to throw a grenade in the room and let's see who comes out of it unscathed.
20:09Unfortunately, it was me who came out.
20:16But it had to be done, I think.
20:19It would have been lovely for the three Celts to have made it to the end.
20:23But it was never going to happen.
20:25No, not with your behaviour.
20:28What about Rachel can't be trusted?
20:31You can't either.
20:31I think the thing with Rachel as well, it came across like she was annoyed.
20:35It was also the first time she was properly challenged.
20:38I think in the environment that you're in, when you're challenged for the first time, it's obviously the most uncomfortable.
20:42Because it's so new, having a point of finger to you, regardless of what you are, is not nice.
20:46So then when perhaps someone did put a brick in her washing machine and see what happens, she was probably a bit of a bee in a bonnet.
20:51Yeah, especially not at the round table.
20:53After a round table, everyone's relaxing.
20:55After a national round table, I didn't need the extra stress.
20:59And the tower was amazing that night, the turret.
21:02Yes.
21:03And you know, Stephen is such a darling.
21:06And he was so uncomfortable.
21:08I honestly think he thought there were going to be two women scrapping here.
21:13I think he had one eye on where's security, I think.
21:18Did you consider speaking to Stephen first before you went up against Rachel?
21:22No.
21:22And the reason being, is that I think if I'd said to Stephen, he would have talked me out of it.
21:30Yeah.
21:30And I didn't want to be talked out of it.
21:33I thought, no, I'm going to do this and it's got to be done now.
21:36If not now, then when?
21:37Yeah.
21:38Let's jump to the round table, your final round table, Fiona.
21:41Did you think you might be able to survive?
21:43If I had to put a bet on myself, it'd be 50p each way.
21:47I thought, if I vote for her, then it's ruining her game straight away.
21:54If I don't vote for her, people are going to have suspicions anyway.
22:00And so I think I voted for Ross.
22:05You voted for Sam.
22:06Sam.
22:06Ross had gone about three days ago.
22:08Oh yes, of course he had.
22:09Ross is minding his own business.
22:12He's gone home.
22:13Now, Fiona, are you prepared for post-traitor's fame?
22:17Do you have social media?
22:18Instagram, which my son is running, because I haven't got a clue with anything like that.
22:24But somebody told me that not to have it on my own mobile phone to get a burner phone.
22:32So I did say to them, but I thought it was only drug addicts and gun dealers that had burner phones.
22:39And they said to me, no, you need one for your social media.
22:43So I went into town, into a shop, and I asked for a burner phone.
22:48You asked for a burner phone?
22:49So the man went into the back of the shop, and I was just looking around.
22:56And two police officers turned up then and said to me, have you asked for a burner phone?
23:05And I said, yes.
23:07The man's gone up the back to get it.
23:09And they said, can I ask you why you want a burner phone?
23:14I said, I need it for social media.
23:16And they said, so why have you asked for a burner phone?
23:20Why don't you ask for a pay-as-you-go phone?
23:24They're clearly trying to set you up, Fiona.
23:25Yes.
23:26I mean, do I look like the type?
23:28Takes all sorts.
23:29You didn't look like a traitor, Fiona.
23:34Sadly, we've run out of time here, but that doesn't mean it's all over.
23:37We'll be continuing the chat in our bonus episode of Uncloaked on BBC Sounds.
23:42You can scan the QR code on screen right now to listen.
23:44We're going to discuss the questions in the Smoke and Mirrors mission and how those votes might affect the players.
23:50Plus, if we had the chance to ask a question to the traitors, what would we want to find out?
23:55If you think you've got what it takes to be a traitor like Fiona, good news as Casting for Traitors Series 5 is open.
24:01Head to bbc.co.uk forward slash take part to apply.
24:04A massive thanks to Charlotte, Amanda, Fiona and Rhys for joining me.
24:07We'll be back next week after episode 7 on Wednesday of The Traitors to unpick the answers to Matthew and Harriet's questions and so much more.
24:16I'm Ed Gamble.
24:17Stay faithful.
24:17We'll be back next week after episode 7 on Wednesday of The Traitors to unpick the answers.
24:47We'll be back next week after episode 7 on Wednesday of The Traitors to unpick the answers.
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