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Is the EU still relevant in a world without rules? MEPs debate in The Ring
Is the EU still relevant in a world where power increasingly overrides international law? That is the question posed in this edition of The Ring, Euronews’ weekly debating show that sees two MEPs face off on some of the most pressing issues of our time.
READ MORE : http://www.euronews.com/2026/01/14/is-the-eu-still-relevant-in-a-world-without-rules-meps-debate-in-the-ring
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Is the EU still relevant in a world where power increasingly overrides international law? That is the question posed in this edition of The Ring, Euronews’ weekly debating show that sees two MEPs face off on some of the most pressing issues of our time.
READ MORE : http://www.euronews.com/2026/01/14/is-the-eu-still-relevant-in-a-world-without-rules-meps-debate-in-the-ring
Subscribe to our channel. Euronews is available on Dailymotion in 12 languages
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00:00Hi there and welcome to The Ring, Euronews' debating show broadcasting from the European Parliament here in Brussels.
00:16Once a week, two elected members of the European Parliament go face to face on some of the most pressing issues of our time.
00:24This week we'll be asking if the European Union is still relevant in a world where rules and international law are no longer respected.
00:32Before we meet our guests though, let's just take a look at what exactly is at stake.
00:37As the rule-based international order weakens, the question is no longer whether power is exercised, but whether it is exercised legitimately.
00:46The loss of faith and diplomacy seems evident in the growing willingness of powerful states to ignore international law.
00:53From the US intervention in Venezuela and its interest in Greenland, Russia's invasion of Ukraine, to China's conflict with Taiwan.
01:01Europe, by contrast, appears divided and reactive, hesitant to challenge Washington and unclear about its own role.
01:08Will Europe defend the rules-based order or accept a world where power defines legality?
01:14That is the question that we have for our contenders today. Let's meet them.
01:21Henrik Dahl, a Danish MEP and a member of the European People's Party Group.
01:26He's an expert on the EU's internal market, employment and legal affairs.
01:30Before entering EU politics, he was a long-time member of the Danish parliament.
01:35He's also a published author of several books on sociology and politics.
01:39There has never been a rules-based international order.
01:42What is new is admitting it, he said regarding the US Caesar of Venezuelan leader Nicolás Maduro.
01:50Lina Galvez, a Spanish MEP and a member of the Progressive Alliance of Socialists and Democrats Group.
01:56She's an expert in feminist economics and gender equality and chairs the Committee on Women's Rights and Gender Equality.
02:02She's also a member of the European Parliament's Delegation for Relations with the United States.
02:07Commenting on the latest events, she said,
02:09Trump is dismantling the international multilateral system and the human rights framework.
02:14And the EU, will it continue to be soft? Shameful.
02:19Henrik Dahl and Lina Galvez, welcome to their ring.
02:24Great to have you with us.
02:25Now, the idea here is to give our viewers a taste of what it's really like inside the European hemicycle.
02:30So I hope you feel right at home.
02:32Lina, perhaps we'll start with you.
02:34Is the European Union still relevant on the world stage?
02:37Still is, but unless we change certain things, it will not be because the world is changing.
02:44It's changing too fast, probably.
02:46It was changing already before the latest happenings.
02:50And that's the problem. The EU and the structures and the processes cannot keep up with that pace, Mr. Dahl.
02:55We are going to have to fight for our relevance because the new currency is raw power.
03:00And we have economic power, but real, raw, old fashioned power is something we are in short supply of.
03:06So we have to improve ourselves.
03:08And is that message clear inside the European Parliament?
03:11Or is it still business as usual, taking time to get things done?
03:15I think we are still a bit on business as usual.
03:18Unfortunately, we need to move faster than we are moving right now.
03:24And we have to say also there are some actors that are very much in favour of a very different European Union,
03:32but not in the sense of more Europe, but less Europe.
03:35And this is something we cannot afford now.
03:37Well, that's an interesting point you make because, of course, there are threats externally,
03:40but there are also threats internally that question the whole idea of the European Union, Mr. Dahl.
03:45There are many problems in the European Union because some of the major countries have internal problems.
03:52So they are there's very little decision making power in some of the capitals.
03:58And we need decision making power in the big capitals as well.
04:01Yeah, but we also really need to empower the European Parliament because we are directly elected by citizens.
04:07So we have also a lot of things to do here. And I think if all the pro-European and pro-democratic forces manage to work closer together in a very real way and with coherence,
04:21that will improve very much the role of the European Parliament.
04:24Because as it looks now, Mr. Dahl, the EU often appears very weak on the world stage.
04:29If you look, for example, at the statement that the EU, the EAS put out, the Foreign Affairs Chief Kayakalas,
04:35it was 26 member states on the violent capture of Nicolas Maduro in Venezuela by the Trump administration.
04:41Why is the EU always so weak and always so divided?
04:45Because we are an economic union and most of the European countries rely on NATO for hard security.
04:52So there is a division of Labour. But sometimes I think we are grabbing the wrong tools in the toolbox.
04:58I have come to realise that Vladimir Putin is not really afraid of resolutions and he's not afraid of strongly worded letters.
05:04And we have to understand this.
05:05And that is often the problem here. The Parliament has become a place of resolutions, of statements, of words.
05:12But in fact, more is needed, especially when it comes to this issue in Venezuela. What's your view there?
05:16We saw as well the European Commissioner Teresa Liberta rather critical of this soft, cautious stance of the EU on Venezuela.
05:23I mean, I think we need to be coherent. And if we say we are for multilateralism and international law, we have to do it.
05:31And obviously, we don't like a Venezuelan regime. It was not a democratic regime. That is clear.
05:38Most of the European Parliament, even my own country, Spain, that was a bit more vocal, did not recognise the result of the elections.
05:46But it does not mean that we need to prove what has happened in Venezuela because that was a breakdown of international law.
05:55And we have to be coherent and we have to be very clear about it.
05:59And are we being coherent? That is the problem.
06:01I don't think we are being very coherent. But I think we have to accept that we have a rules-based order on our own continent.
06:08But there is not a global rules-based order because if you look at the five permanent members of the UN Security Council,
06:14three of them don't really care about the UN Charter and they violate the UN Charter constantly.
06:20The new thing is that the United States used to rhetorically abide by the rules-based order.
06:25But when it came to the arrest of Maduro, Trump didn't even bother to talk about democracy.
06:30He just talked about oil and power.
06:33I agree that we did not have an international rule order as such and that it was broken before.
06:42The problem or the difference is that the US is still the biggest power and is able really to change the rules in a faster way
06:52and in a way other actors are not able to.
06:55So even if I agree in the sense that the international order was not working as within it was working,
07:05or at least as theoretically it should be working, it has been a change now.
07:10And we are seeing a change now.
07:13We feel it's a deeper problem because under normal circumstances, which are not normal,
07:17if somebody attacked Greenland, we would invoke Article 5 of NATO.
07:21But if the United States attack Greenland, they are supposed to guarantee Article 5.
07:25So you can't really invoke it if the attacking party is the party that's supposed to guarantee Article 5.
07:31So why Europe should jump in?
07:33Why Europe should jump in?
07:34Well, one way perhaps that Europe or the EU could jump in here, an idea that some MEPs have been floating,
07:39is to freeze the EU-US trade deal as a way to put pressure on the administration of Donald Trump not to touch Greenland.
07:46Lina Galvez, would you be in favour of this?
07:49Yeah, of course. I'm also in the International Trade Committee and in the US delegations.
07:56We are not very active in the recent month, I have to say.
07:59In the previous term we were meeting almost every week.
08:03We were going, there were years, I went even five times there.
08:07The communications are down.
08:09And we are not doing that anymore, so that means something already.
08:14But of course we have weapons, we have power we are not using.
08:18And we really need to think seriously about using it.
08:22And just, Mr Dal, Greenland, a topic very close to your heart as a Danish politician.
08:27What would be your view? Is freezing those EU-US trade talks a good idea?
08:32I think you need to take one step at a time on the escalation ladder.
08:36And I think stopping the deal would be more than one step.
08:40According to me, it would not be the natural first step.
08:43But how can the Europeans negotiate with President Donald Trump and his administration
08:47on tricky issues like trade, like tech, like Greenland, etc.
08:51So the international order is now moving towards, even not only the international order,
08:58I mean the rules that Trump has seen that the international order is not working,
09:04so he's trying to change in his benefits.
09:07And his benefits is, even not in capitalist terms, he's not looking for benefits,
09:12he's looking for rents. So he's really changing the whole role of the game.
09:18So we cannot enter on that framework of rents, on that framework of coercion.
09:23We really need to see the power we have, that we have a lot of power.
09:27We are a great market and we are powerful.
09:33We need to be united, that is important, and we really need to use whatever we can use.
09:39A lot of people in this town were disappointed that we had to accept the 15% tariff.
09:44But I think it's sort of a kind of a sober reflection of the bargaining power.
09:50I think that's where the bargaining power is.
09:52Of course, we are really embedded with the US. That's a reality. We are dependent on many things.
09:58I did a lot on cybersecurity in the previous term, so I know what I'm talking about. I can't tell you.
10:03We are really dependent. But we really need to rethink that this world order is not anymore working.
10:12And we really need to be smarter and united. I insist on that.
10:17So we are a political pair and not just economic.
10:19Well, just to some extent, because we haven't discussed Ukraine.
10:22But one of the reasons we accept the 15% tariff is that we don't want the United States to pull out of Ukraine.
10:28Because even though we are doing much more than we used to do, we are still dependent on the United States if we want to support Ukraine.
10:36So in order to keep the United States in when it comes to Ukraine, we have to accept certain things.
10:42And just a final point, perhaps on Iran, which is on all of our minds here.
10:46What role can the European Union play here to have a say in Iran's hopefully democratic future?
10:51I hope so. But Iran is a very complicated country and area because it's not like in Venezuela that we knew already for the past elections that most of the population was against the Maduro regime.
11:04This is not the case in Iran. So the blood that we can see if we do not act in a very proper way, very clear for democracy, it could be very...
11:19I think we should classify the Revolutionary Guard as a terrorist organization.
11:23And that's in fact what Roberta Metzola said to the president of the European Parliament in the interview this week on Euronews that you can catch.
11:29But I'll stop you there because we want to dive deeper into the debate.
11:33So now it is time to give our viewers a real taste of the chamber where MEPs you fire questions over and back to each other and you often do not know what exactly is coming.
11:46So that is what we plan to do right now.
11:49Lina Galvis, would you like to begin with your first question for Mr. Dal?
11:52Now that President Trump set his sights on Greenland and you are Danish and you are from the EPP, is your political family, your political party here at the European Parliament be more vocal criticising the United States for certain decisions that affect international law?
12:14We have the case of Venezuela, but with the trade agreement, you were also, you know, not very critical with it.
12:23So it makes any change now with this threat on Greenland?
12:27Yes, I think we will, because the thing we are going to criticise, as far as I know, the Conference of Presidents is still discussing this, is that the United States is not honouring the treaties they have made.
12:43So they are not honouring an old agreement from 1916, that was during the First World War, and they are not honouring the defence agreement from 1951.
12:51So we are going to criticise the United States more vocally.
12:54And just to remind our viewers, when you refer to the Conference of Presidents, you are referring to the meeting of all the various presidents of the political groups here in the Parliament.
13:01Mr. Dal, it's time for you to address your first question to Lina Galvis.
13:04My question is, I think, on behalf of all the Nordic countries and all the Baltic countries, and it is about Spanish defence spending.
13:14When are you going to reach 3.5 or 5 percent? We think that would be a nice act of solidarity.
13:21You know, I'm an academic, I'm an economics professor, so I study what you say before coming here, and you are very much with efficiency.
13:30So sometimes you could be efficient with lower expenditure, and Spain has double expenditure, and in a very efficient way, really meeting all the targets they will put to the country.
13:45So I think Spain has made a huge effort, both in terms of budget and efficiency.
13:52So I think we should really need to look to efficiency, because if we only need to look to the percentage, we will be entering in this Trump framework of rents.
14:02And I think this is not what we want, not for Spain, not for Europe.
14:06Mr. Dal, I'll let you catch your breath while you address your next question, please.
14:09I would like an answer on behalf of your Prime Minister, because your Prime Minister said that nuclear weapons ought to be used against Israel.
14:18Are you in favour of using nuclear weapons against Israel?
14:22To be honest, I haven't heard Pedro Sánchez say that, and I really doubt he has said that at all.
14:36To be honest, I haven't.
14:37Where did you hear him say that?
14:39I'm not a pro-nuclear weapon person.
14:43He is not, as far as I know.
14:45I just went in October for a mission in Japan.
14:50I visited Hiroshima that I have never visited in my life.
14:53And I don't think anyone who has really visited Hiroshima, what happened there, could be in any moment in favour of nuclear weapons.
15:01He said it publicly at a political rally, but I will find the clip.
15:06And we will share it as well.
15:08I really doubt, to be honest.
15:10Lina Galvez, you have the opportunity to address one more question now to Mr. Dal.
15:14Now I'd like to ask you on Venezuela, and also regarding your political group.
15:21You confirmed that your political group rejects the recent military actions carried out unilaterally in Venezuela
15:28and defends that they contribute in the fundamental principle of international law even though Venezuela is not a democratic country.
15:36And all members of your party, especially Spanish EPP, have been really very concentrated on Venezuela in a way to criticise the Spanish government without a real case for it.
15:51Since we have half a million Venezuela in the country, we have been very vocal on helping to liberate prisoners or even we have the lead of the opposition living in our country.
16:04So I would like to know more about it.
16:06We have been very supportive of the democratic opposition.
16:09There was a vote in parliament about whether or not to recognise the election.
16:14We had a lot of discussions about are we supposed to vote for and against.
16:19It's even called the Venezuela majority when we vote with the right wing.
16:23So we have been supportive of the democratic forces in Venezuela all along, and we are still supporters of the democratic Venezuela.
16:32Sorry, but what about what had happened with the U.S., I mean with the Trump intervention in Venezuela?
16:38It is, of course, a grey zone and we recognise that we are in a grey zone here.
16:43But you have to consider the fact that Maduro was an illegitimate leader of the country.
16:50OK, we'll have to close that there.
16:53But thank you so much for addressing questions to each other.
16:56We heard the views there from the MEPs.
16:58I'd also like to bring in a new voice here.
17:00Now we'd like to bring in the voice of Viktor Orban, Prime Minister of Hungary, who's often known for going against the Brussels line.
17:11In a recent press conference, he praised Trump's operation in Venezuela and said Hungary will not leave the European Union,
17:19but the European Union will fall apart on its own.
17:23A kind of disintegration will take place and chaos will emerge in leadership.
17:28What do you make of this statement, Mr. Dahl?
17:32I think Viktor Orban is a troll, and I think you have to understand him as sort of a real-life social media troll
17:41who says outrageous things in order to elicit crazy responses.
17:46So it's kind of the equivalent of rage bait in real life.
17:52Well, he's also in campaign mode. It's worth pointing out as well to our viewers.
17:55Lina Gaveth, if you're part of a club, should you not be promoting the club and defending it?
18:00Of course. But I don't think it is a troll. I think it is part of an international far-right club.
18:10And for him, this is more important. And they have a plan. And the plan is to destroy the European Union, as it is.
18:17As it has also written down Trump now in his external strategy. So I think he's a trojan horse within the European Union.
18:26So probably it is also time for us to act regarding...
18:31But I think it's a question of psychology because, I mean, I think Viktor Orban is totally annoying just like you think.
18:37But from a psychological point of view, I think sometimes you need to ignore annoying people because they become more annoying if you respond to what they say.
18:46But what he says is so catchy. That's why we were playing this clip here on Euronews.
18:50Yes. But if you go silent, I mean, you ignore it. It can happen what has happened other times in history. So I don't think this is the moment.
19:00The same is with Trump. I will be very humiliating if I will be from Greenland just saying, oh, who is that person that said Greenland should stay with John Murray?
19:12He was the prime minister. So this continuous humiliation. I'm a woman. I feel humiliated for him every time he opens his mouth.
19:20And so I don't think we should stay silent. We should be very vocal.
19:24He will lose the next election and then we get rid of him.
19:26Well, we'll have to stay tuned to see what exactly happens in those elections taking place on the 12th of April.
19:32We'll cover them very carefully for you here on Euronews. But now it is time to take a short break.
19:36But stay with us because we'll be back very, very soon with some more political punch from the European Parliament.
19:41Welcome back to The Ring, Euronews's weekly debating show. I'm joined here by MEP's Henrik Dahl and Lina Galvez.
19:58And the idea here is to bring European Parliament debates exactly to your couch.
20:02But we also want to bring in how the public feel about all these topics.
20:05And actually, before the events of the past month, we saw Europeans were already increasingly wary of US power on the global stage.
20:12According to a survey of the European Council of Foreign Relations, about 49% of EU citizens no longer see the United States as a true ally, viewing it instead as a necessary partner.
20:23And according to the Group d'études geopolitique, 70% of Europeans, so 7 in 10, say the European Union should rely on its own armed forces for security.
20:35And only 10% believe Europe can rely on the US for defence.
20:39So there seems to be a very strong demand out there for European strategic autonomy.
20:44I would like to get your views as well, especially for you, Lina Galvez, as a socialist.
20:48I know this topic is very tricky when it comes to where the money should be focused.
20:51Well, I think, yes, if we really need to move towards strategic autonomy, we really need to increase our security and defence capacities.
21:01Your voters in Spain, do they support this?
21:03Oh, well, in Spain, less than in other countries.
21:07But still, it is a question of talking, really, that what is the reality and that we really need to move more on defence and security,
21:16but also to make the changes that will make this strategic autonomy possible.
21:22Because unless we move to more Europe in other policy areas like more fiscal linear or even industrial policies, a common industrial policies, we really cannot talk about industrial, sorry, strategic autonomy.
21:37So what will Europeans have to give up to reach this goal?
21:40I don't know.
21:41I think that's why you have politics, because sometimes things are possible in politics that you didn't think were possible.
21:47But let me say, I was a little bit puzzled when President Macron introduced strategic autonomy in 2017.
21:54But he was ahead of his time. It was very visionary what he said.
21:58And I'm very happy that seven out of ten people believe in this concept, because I think it's the right thing to do.
22:05But because the US is quite frankly not there. We're seeing that on a daily basis.
22:09And that's why there's so much pressure as well on Spain to increase defence funding.
22:12Exactly. But of course, we have to discuss priorities.
22:16That's what that's what we do at home. That's what I did for almost a decade.
22:19And once you have this debate about priorities, I think most people are able to understand the landing zone eventually where the compromise is.
22:27But that means perhaps that Emmanuel Macron's strategy did work here.
22:30Well, it is. I think it is working. We are moving towards that at least a part of the chamber.
22:35I go back to what I was saying at the very beginning. They are part of the chamber, almost a third of the chamber, that are really against more Europe.
22:42And if we want to advance and to have a strategic autonomy, it's a very ample aspect.
22:47And we are doing already. We are also putting in this dual use. I'm the rapporteur from my group on the new framework program on research and innovation.
22:57And we are including dual use for everything. So the security expenditure on politics, it does not go only darkly on security and defence, but also in other policies.
23:10And we are moving towards that. Because people are worried. Our viewers are concerned that we will not be able to protect the social economy that we're so proud of here in Europe.
23:17No, that's what Ukraine tells us, because let's assume that we decided to go all in and help Ukraine. Still, what we could muster would not be enough.
23:26We're still dependent on the United States if we want to keep Russia at bay. And it's dawning on more and more people that this is the way things are.
23:34But it's not what people want, clearly, as you've seen from that poll.
23:37Yeah, but we need more Europe. I mean, of course, there are a lot of misinformation going on.
23:42And there is a lot of engineers of chaos, as Giuliano Dempoli is saying, behind those polls, too.
23:49So there is a lot of misinformation going on and a lot of actors that really want to destroy the European Union.
23:56And this is also reflected in the polls in a way or another. And in the populism is that as well. So we really need to have that in mind.
24:03And what does that mean then on a practical level, having more Europe? Does it mean radical reforms here?
24:07We thought in Europe that we could do without hard power. But it turns out that hard power is a necessity.
24:13And we have to supply the hard power ourselves. And that means that we have to change our priorities.
24:19Are our leaders, though, bold enough? Do they have enough vision?
24:22Yeah, when you put them under pressure. But they are risk aversive because they want to be reelected.
24:27But you have to put them under a certain amount of pressure.
24:28But it's not the problem, though. Always under pressure, under crisis, the EU can work. And if not, it's just let's wait and see.
24:34Well, we have managed in the past. To be honest, when we were in front of a crisis, we were able to go out with more Europe or a better Europe.
24:42I hope this time will be the same. However, there is a big difference.
24:46It's the polls. It's the public opinion that is more anti-European in certain areas, in certain places.
24:53And some parties that are inside the chamber and also in the council that are really against the idea of the Europe we have been building.
25:01It is time to move on to our fifth and final round. Are you ready?
25:09Now it is time for something a little bit different. I'm going to be asking our guests, MEPs, quick questions on set.
25:17And they only have the permission to answer with a yes or no answer.
25:22I'm not very good at that.
25:23Is that doable?
25:24Yes.
25:25OK, well, on that positive point, we can start. Is the European Union the best place in the world to live? Yes or no?
25:32Yes.
25:33Yes.
25:34Do you think the future of the European Union is bright?
25:39Yes. Let's say yes. Let be optimistic.
25:43I think so, too.
25:44Are the EU institutions fit for purpose, Lina Galvis, yes or no?
25:49No.
25:50What about you, Mr. Dal?
25:52No, they need to tighten up.
25:54Could the European Union defend itself alone if the United States did not step in to help, Mr. Dal?
26:01No.
26:02Lina?
26:03No.
26:04Can the European Union respond quickly enough to various global crises, yes or no, Lina Galvis?
26:11No.
26:12What about you, Mr. Dal?
26:14No.
26:15Is the role of Kaya Callas, that's the EU Foreign Affairs Chief, is it important, yes or no?
26:20No.
26:21Mr. Dal, same question to you.
26:23Yes, I think so.
26:24What about Trump's attempts to take Greenland? Could this see the end of the NATO alliance, Mr. Dal?
26:33Yes.
26:34What about you, Mr. Lam?
26:35Yes.
26:36Yeah?
26:37Should the European Union have its own army, Lina Galvis?
26:40Yes.
26:41Would you agree with that, yes or no? Should we have her own army?
26:43No.
26:44No.
26:45And are EU leaders, do you think, in control of their own destiny?
26:50No.
26:51Yes.
26:52Is it time to radically reform the EU, yes or no?
26:57Yes.
26:58Yes.
26:59And on that point of the need to radically reform, we can bring this conversation to an
27:04end.
27:05We could continue discussing all these issues at length, but this does bring this show to
27:09an end.
27:10Thank you so much as well to our viewers for tuning in.
27:12If you would like to reach out to us and let us know how you feel about any of these topics,
27:16you can read or you can write to us on the ring at Euronews.com.
27:20But for now, thank you so much for watching.
27:22Thank you also to Lina Galvis and to Henrik Dal from Denmark for joining us and being our guests.
27:27Take care and see you soon here on Euronews.
27:30Euronews.
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