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Crown Court: the gripping courtroom drama from the 1970s and 1980s.
The defendant, Dr Jonathan Francis, a practising gynaecologist, is accused of obtaining money from one of his patients by false pretences. Watch out for a touching performance from Veronica Doran (later to find fame as Eddie Yeats' wife in Coronation Street).
The defendant, Dr Jonathan Francis, a practising gynaecologist, is accused of obtaining money from one of his patients by false pretences. Watch out for a touching performance from Veronica Doran (later to find fame as Eddie Yeats' wife in Coronation Street).
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00:00:00Transcription by CastingWords
00:00:30Members of the jury,
00:00:37the prosecution's case is that the defendant, Dr. Jonathan Francis,
00:00:41a practicing gynaecologist, although he is not a specialist in this field,
00:00:46obtained money from one of his patients by false pretenses.
00:00:51That is the crux of this case and we must not forget it.
00:00:55Now, taking money as a condition for arranging an adoption
00:00:58is a very minor offence, punishable only by a fine.
00:01:04And the reason I emphasise this is that the manner in which he obtained that money
00:01:08may appear to you to be even more outrageous
00:01:11than the charge on which he appears before this court.
00:01:13From November 1971, Dr. Francis had as his patient a woman named Mrs. Hine.
00:01:22After two and a half years and exhaustive tests,
00:01:25Mrs. Hine finally accepted that she was unable to have children
00:01:29and was advised to seek adoption.
00:01:31This she did.
00:01:32But for various reasons, she and her husband were unsuccessful
00:01:36until Dr. Francis offered to arrange an adoption for them.
00:01:43Now, this practice of third-party adoption,
00:01:46although it is frowned upon in adoption circles,
00:01:48is not illegal.
00:01:50However, as I have said, it is illegal to take any money for this service.
00:01:55So, when Dr. Francis mentioned money
00:01:58and he mentioned and received £2,000,
00:02:02Mrs. Hine believed that it was for the expenses of the natural mother
00:02:06and that it was quite proper for her to make such a payment.
00:02:09In fact, the sum of £2,000 by far exceeded any medical expenses involved.
00:02:15Thus, Dr. Francis obtained, by deception,
00:02:18money for which he had done nothing.
00:02:21He had succeeded in selling a baby.
00:02:26Although he had, by his deception,
00:02:28managed to conceal this from the purchaser.
00:02:32My first witness is Detective Inspector Williams.
00:02:37I am Charles Edward Williams,
00:02:39Detective Inspector in Fulchester CID, my lord.
00:02:43On the 20th of March of this year,
00:02:45did you receive certain information about some adoption proceedings
00:02:48which had been started in the Fulchester Magistrate's Court
00:02:51but later adjourned?
00:02:52That is correct.
00:02:53Do you know who had procured this adjournment?
00:02:55The Guardian Ad Litem, Miss Pearl,
00:02:57of the Fulchester Social Services Department.
00:02:59Oh, dear, I see some quizzical looks amongst the jury already, Mrs. Dixon.
00:03:03Yes, my lord.
00:03:04Members of the jury,
00:03:05the Guardian Ad Litem is the person appointed by the Magistrate's Court
00:03:08to see that the adoption is satisfactory
00:03:10and that the law is observed.
00:03:12In this case, a social worker from the Fulchester Social Services,
00:03:15a Miss Pearl.
00:03:16What action did you take when you were asked to make these inquiries, Mr. Williams?
00:03:21Well, first I went to see Mrs. Hine.
00:03:24Mrs. Hine, I have mentioned, is the adoptive mother.
00:03:27Did she at the time have charge of the infant?
00:03:30Yes.
00:03:30And did you tell her of these allegations?
00:03:32I did.
00:03:33And as a result of this interview, what did you do?
00:03:35I went to see Dr. Francis, who had arranged the adoption.
00:03:38And what happened when you saw him?
00:03:40I told him that I had reason to believe that he had accepted £2,000
00:03:44in respect of the adoption that he had arranged for Mrs. Hine.
00:03:48What did he say to this?
00:03:49He said that the money was for the mother's medical expenses, £1,500 of it,
00:03:54and that £500 was Mrs. Hine's own fees.
00:03:58Did you point out to him that payment of the natural mother's medical expenses
00:04:01was illegal?
00:04:03I did, but he begged to differ.
00:04:06What do you mean by that?
00:04:08Well, he said the payment was a purely philanthropic gesture
00:04:11on the part of Mr. and Mrs. Hine,
00:04:13and that the adoption did not depend on it.
00:04:15That the payment and the adoption were two entirely separate matters.
00:04:19That is correct.
00:04:20Did you ask him anything else?
00:04:22I asked if any of the money had been for himself,
00:04:24and he said it hadn't.
00:04:26And after further inquiries, did you see Dr. Francis again?
00:04:30Yes, I saw the mother, Miss Sylvia Spencer,
00:04:32then I saw Mr. and Mrs. Hine,
00:04:35and I saw Dr. Francis again four days later.
00:04:37And what happened?
00:04:38I arrested and cautioned him.
00:04:40Did he say anything to you after you had arrested him?
00:04:43Nothing.
00:04:47Detective Inspector, help me, if you will.
00:04:48Well, there was something you saw or heard during your investigations
00:04:52which convinced you that Dr. Francis had misrepresented to Mr. and Mrs. Hine
00:04:57the purpose of this £2,000.
00:05:00Now, that is the case, is it not?
00:05:01Yes, there was.
00:05:02Yes, what was this evidence?
00:05:05Mrs. Hine's account of the events.
00:05:07Oh, so it was Mrs. Hine's word against Dr. Francis?
00:05:09Among other things, yes.
00:05:13Hmm.
00:05:14Now, just after she had heard that the adoption proceedings had been adjourned,
00:05:19the day after, in fact, you saw Mrs. Hine, did you not?
00:05:22Yes.
00:05:23Yes, you went to her home?
00:05:25Yes.
00:05:25And did you tell her that you were a police officer?
00:05:28I did.
00:05:28Yes, and then I suppose you began asking your questions?
00:05:31Yes.
00:05:32Did she appear nervous?
00:05:34She was upset, certainly.
00:05:36Yes.
00:05:37When you mentioned to her that the sum of money which she had paid
00:05:39might have been illegal, did this seem to frighten her?
00:05:44Did she react in any way that you could perceive?
00:05:48Yes.
00:05:48She was shocked.
00:05:50And had you any information about this sum of money before,
00:05:53the sum of money that was involved, before you saw Mrs. Hine?
00:05:57Yes, I was told that a sum of £500 was believed to have been paid,
00:06:02but there was some doubt about what it was for.
00:06:05So, in view of this, I interviewed the mother of the child,
00:06:07Miss Sylvia Spencer,
00:06:09and she confirmed that she had seen a bill for that amount.
00:06:13Well, owing to the discrepancy between that
00:06:15and the amount that Mrs. Hine had paid,
00:06:17I went along to see her.
00:06:19Yes, and how much had Mrs. Hine tell you she had paid?
00:06:23£2,000.
00:06:24Evidently, she had not disclosed this payment before.
00:06:28That's it to say, she had not disclosed it to Miss Pearl, the infant's guardian.
00:06:32No, I suppose not.
00:06:33No.
00:06:34Well, I have one more question, Inspector,
00:06:36and it is a point on which the jury should be absolutely clear.
00:06:40It is true, is it not, that Dr. Francis told you
00:06:42that he believed that this payment that Mr. and Mrs. Hine were offering
00:06:46was a payment of purely philanthropic gesture.
00:06:51That is true.
00:06:51Yes, and yet you chose to believe Mrs. Hine
00:06:55in her shocked state
00:06:56in preference to a reputable member of the medical profession.
00:07:01Yes, I have no further questions, my lord.
00:07:04If your lordship has no further questions.
00:07:05No.
00:07:06Thank you, Mr. Williams.
00:07:07You may go.
00:07:07I call Miss Sylvia Spencer.
00:07:16You are Miss Sylvia Mary Spencer of 13 Trebizone Road, Birmingham.
00:07:21Yes.
00:07:22And you are a bakery assistant?
00:07:24Yes.
00:07:25Miss Spencer, in about the spring of 1973,
00:07:28did you discover something about yourself?
00:07:30I was going to have a baby.
00:07:33At this time, were you living in Birmingham?
00:07:35Yes.
00:07:36And did you leave Birmingham and come to Fulchester?
00:07:38Yes.
00:07:39Why was that?
00:07:43To see someone?
00:07:45Yes.
00:07:46Who?
00:07:47Valerie.
00:07:49Her full name?
00:07:51Valerie Gough.
00:07:51How long have you known her?
00:07:55We was at school.
00:07:56You have known her since you were at school?
00:07:59Yes.
00:07:59And what was Miss Gough's employment at the time?
00:08:02She worked for Dr. Francis.
00:08:04She worked for the accused?
00:08:06In what capacity?
00:08:08Receptionist.
00:08:09And what did you want to see her about?
00:08:12My baby.
00:08:15Was it to procure an abortion?
00:08:18No, I didn't.
00:08:21Did you want to see your friend to get some advice?
00:08:27Yes.
00:08:28Now, precisely what was it you wanted to ask her?
00:08:33Well, was this advice on how to affect an abortion on your own, on yourself?
00:08:38Yes.
00:08:39Yes, you wanted to terminate your own pregnancy?
00:08:41Yes.
00:08:42So you hadn't come to Fulchester to see if Dr. Francis would perform an abortion for you?
00:08:47No, I hadn't got the money.
00:08:48No, and so you were trying to get rid of the pregnancy on your own?
00:08:52Yes.
00:08:53And so you came to Fulchester, especially to see Miss Gough?
00:08:57Yes.
00:08:57And did she give you advice on terminating this pregnancy?
00:09:01No.
00:09:03She said she'd try and find out them.
00:09:06She said Dr. Francis wanted to see me.
00:09:08Yes, I wonder if you could try to speak a little more loudly, Miss Spencer.
00:09:12Sorry.
00:09:14She told you that Dr. Francis wanted to see you?
00:09:17Yes.
00:09:17But had you asked to see Dr. Francis?
00:09:19No.
00:09:21Miss Spencer, why did you wish to get rid of your child?
00:09:24Because of my parents.
00:09:26Did they tell you to?
00:09:28No, they...
00:09:29I haven't told them.
00:09:32Well, what about the father of your child?
00:09:34Did he have nothing to say?
00:09:35I don't know.
00:09:37Do you know who the father is?
00:09:39Yes.
00:09:41Well, I mean, what did he think about you wanting to get rid of his child?
00:09:45He left.
00:09:48Was he against your getting rid of it?
00:09:50I don't know.
00:09:53Go on.
00:09:55Do you mean, Miss Spencer, that the father left when he heard that you were pregnant?
00:09:59Yes.
00:09:59And one may presume for that reason that that was why?
00:10:03Yes.
00:10:04And have you seen him since?
00:10:05No.
00:10:06I see.
00:10:08Now, you have said that you did not actually ask to see Dr. Francis.
00:10:12No.
00:10:14That is what you have said?
00:10:17Yes, but my friend said he wanted to see me.
00:10:21So it was at Dr. Francis' request that you went to see him?
00:10:24Yes.
00:10:25On what date did you see him?
00:10:28The 17th of August.
00:10:31Last year?
00:10:32Yes.
00:10:32And what happened when you saw him?
00:10:35He looked at me and he said I was too late to get rid of it.
00:10:43Well, did he give you any other reason why you couldn't get rid of it?
00:10:45No.
00:10:47He just said it was so late it would be dangerous.
00:10:51Well, did he say perhaps that you might want to keep the child once you'd had it?
00:10:56No.
00:10:57Are you sure?
00:10:58Yes.
00:11:00Were you frightened when he said it could be dangerous?
00:11:02Yes.
00:11:04Did he say anything about other doctors?
00:11:07He said someone else might do it just for the money but that it would be dangerous.
00:11:12Yes.
00:11:13Did he say how many weeks pregnant you were?
00:11:1718 weeks, I think.
00:11:18Yes.
00:11:18Now, had you calculated before you went to see Dr. Francis how pregnant you were?
00:11:22I thought I was just past three months.
00:11:25Yeah.
00:11:26That's about 14 weeks.
00:11:28Yes.
00:11:28Did you tell him this?
00:11:29Yes.
00:11:30What did he say?
00:11:31Not to be silly.
00:11:34But did you not tell him the date from which you thought your pregnancy had started?
00:11:38He said I must have made a mistake.
00:11:40Well, on what date did you say your pregnancy had begun?
00:11:45Round about...
00:11:47About May.
00:11:49It was round about the beginning of...
00:11:50Which month?
00:11:52Which month?
00:11:53May.
00:11:54You really must try to speak up, Miss Spencer.
00:11:57Sorry.
00:11:58What date in May?
00:12:01About the 10th.
00:12:03So that would have meant that on the 17th of August when you saw Dr. Francis you would have
00:12:07been about 13 to 14 weeks pregnant.
00:12:10Yes.
00:12:11Did he make any suggestion as to what you might do?
00:12:14He said I must tell me parents.
00:12:17Did you tell him that you were afraid of your parents finding out?
00:12:20Yes.
00:12:20Now, why were you against telling your parents?
00:12:24My dad had killed me.
00:12:26Oh, what on earth gave you that impression?
00:12:30He never liked my boyfriend.
00:12:33Do you really mean you thought he might kill you or are you merely saying that he would have
00:12:37been very angry?
00:12:39No, he'd have felt in me.
00:12:40With a belt.
00:12:42Had he ever belted you in the past?
00:12:45He was always belting me.
00:12:47Me and my sister.
00:12:50I see.
00:12:51And so you told him that you couldn't tell your parents?
00:12:53Yes.
00:12:54Did he suggest any other cause?
00:12:56He said he knew someone who might adopt him and help with the money that they might...
00:13:03Was this on condition that you handed over the child?
00:13:07And did he make this clear from the beginning?
00:13:08He said, of course, they'd only pay if they got it.
00:13:15Did Dr Francis make any suggestion as to what you might do in the meantime?
00:13:18He said he'd get me a room when it started to show.
00:13:23That he'd move here.
00:13:25And I'd stay in the room and he'd get me a part-time job.
00:13:29And when there was only a few weeks, I'd go into a nursing home in Avil.
00:13:35And I'd never have to see it.
00:13:40And at the time, did you welcome this suggestion?
00:13:43It was the only way.
00:13:45Did your parents ask you where you were going?
00:13:48Yes.
00:13:50I told them I was going to stay with Valerie.
00:13:53That I got a job with Dr Francis.
00:13:55And did Dr Francis confirm this for you?
00:13:57Yes, he wrote to them.
00:13:59He said he'd give me a job.
00:14:00Was this true?
00:14:01No.
00:14:02May we have Exhibit 1, please?
00:14:05Miss Spencer, would you look at that letter?
00:14:07Have you ever seen it before?
00:14:09Yes.
00:14:10I was at home when my dad got it.
00:14:13Now, for how long did you stay in this room?
00:14:16Four months.
00:14:18Did you visit Dr Francis during that time?
00:14:20Yes.
00:14:20How often?
00:14:22About once a week.
00:14:24Oh, you say about.
00:14:25Well, was this more or less than once a week, do you think?
00:14:28No, it was about once.
00:14:29So that would amount to about 12 visits?
00:14:32Yes.
00:14:34Did he give you any treatment on these visits?
00:14:36He just talked, usually.
00:14:39He gave me pills.
00:14:41Did he give you a course of injections?
00:14:42No.
00:14:43Did he ever encourage you or suggest to you that you should go and see another doctor?
00:14:48No.
00:14:48And at the end of these visits, would he tell you to come again on a given date?
00:14:52Yes.
00:14:53Did you ever go to see him on a day when you had no appointment?
00:14:56No.
00:14:57Would you say that up to this time, your pregnancy was straightforward?
00:15:00No problems?
00:15:01Yes.
00:15:03Now, you had a job, did you not?
00:15:05Yes.
00:15:05Was it ever necessary for you to be absent from work during those four months?
00:15:11No.
00:15:13And so, the situation is that you lived in this room for four months, during which time
00:15:18you visited Dr. Francis once a week.
00:15:21Yes.
00:15:21On what date were you expecting your child to be born?
00:15:26The beginning of February.
00:15:28But in January, what happened?
00:15:32Dr. Francis said...
00:15:34He said, I've got to go in early.
00:15:37Why?
00:15:39He said it'd have to be an operation.
00:15:42Was this operation that Dr. Francis said you would have to have called a caesarean section?
00:15:51Yes.
00:15:54This might be a good moment to adjourn.
00:16:21This part of your testimony is understandably painful to you, Miss Spencer, and I shall
00:16:28try to be brief.
00:16:30Was the operation that Dr. Francis told you you would have to have called a caesarean section?
00:16:36He said it would be better for me.
00:16:38Did you object?
00:16:39No.
00:16:41Did you have any symptoms at this time that might have been the reason for doing this operation?
00:16:46Did I?
00:16:48Yes.
00:16:49Did you?
00:16:49No.
00:16:50Did you have any bleeding that you noticed?
00:16:54No.
00:16:55Are you sure of this?
00:16:56Yes.
00:16:58On what date was your child delivered?
00:17:01The 4th of January.
00:17:03And did you see it?
00:17:04No.
00:17:05Did you ask to see it?
00:17:07I did after.
00:17:09What do you mean?
00:17:11I didn't want to see it right away, but I did after.
00:17:14Did you want to keep the baby?
00:17:16Yes.
00:17:17Did you tell Dr. Francis?
00:17:18What did he say?
00:17:21He showed me a bill.
00:17:23He said, who's going to pay for it if they didn't?
00:17:27He said, did I want him to send it to me dad?
00:17:31A bill?
00:17:32For how much?
00:17:34500 pounds.
00:17:35Did you ask Dr. Francis if you could see the baby?
00:17:40Yes.
00:17:41And what did he say?
00:17:42He said it had gone so I couldn't.
00:17:45Where had it gone?
00:17:47To the new mother and father.
00:17:50He said it was all done.
00:17:51He said it was very happy and it mustn't be selfish.
00:17:59He said it was a very good home and they got plenty of money.
00:18:03I was quite grateful, really.
00:18:08And so you did eventually give your consent.
00:18:12Yes, I signed.
00:18:13Did you know at the time that you could have refused to sign and have your child return to you?
00:18:17No.
00:18:19Did Dr. Francis not tell you?
00:18:21No.
00:18:22Had he at any time expressed the hope that you would want to keep your baby?
00:18:26Oh, no.
00:18:27He said the opposite.
00:18:28Now, when you went to sign the consent, did Dr. Francis go with you?
00:18:32Yes.
00:18:33And what happened afterwards?
00:18:35He gave me 100 pounds.
00:18:37He gave you 100 pounds?
00:18:41Was this in cash?
00:18:43Yes.
00:18:44Did he say what the money was for?
00:18:46He said for being a good girl.
00:18:49I see.
00:18:50Did he do anything else after you signed the consent?
00:18:56Yes.
00:18:57He tore up the bill.
00:18:59He said we could forget about it now.
00:19:01Do you now say that you signed the consent against your will?
00:19:05Yes.
00:19:06Was it because of Dr. Francis?
00:19:09Yes, it was.
00:19:10And would you have liked to have kept your baby?
00:19:13Yes.
00:19:15I have no further questions, my lord.
00:19:17Thank you, Miss Spencer.
00:19:20I must warn you, Miss Spencer, I have no time for this show of emotion.
00:19:26It is one thing to change one's mind, but then to lay the blame for one's own mistakes
00:19:30at the door of the person who has the most right to one's gratitude is wicked.
00:19:34Oh, I'm sure you have some questions, Mr. Golding.
00:19:37My lord.
00:19:39Now, let me ask you, Miss Spencer.
00:19:42Miss Spencer.
00:19:44Let me ask you.
00:19:45Why did you want to see Dr. Francis in the first place?
00:19:50I don't know.
00:19:51Oh, come, come, Miss Spencer.
00:19:52You know very well.
00:19:53You've told the court once at the beginning of your testimony.
00:19:56Now, why did you want to see Dr. Francis in the first place?
00:20:00Because I was pregnant.
00:20:02You would agree that you wanted to see him?
00:20:04Yes.
00:20:05Yes, because you said earlier that it was Dr. Francis who wanted to see you.
00:20:09But in fact, you wanted to see him because you wanted an abortion, didn't you?
00:20:16Yes.
00:20:17Yes, you wanted to get rid of your child.
00:20:19Yes.
00:20:20And when you found that you could not have it aborted, you welcomed the idea that it could
00:20:24be adopted.
00:20:25No.
00:20:25Oh, surely when Dr. Francis suggested that instead of a dangerous abortion, he should
00:20:31arrange an adoption, you agreed.
00:20:34Yes.
00:20:35Yes, you've told the court as much.
00:20:37And who arranged all these things for you?
00:20:40Dr. Francis.
00:20:41Dr. Francis, who looked after you during your pregnancy, who arranged your confinement,
00:20:46who arranged your convalescence.
00:20:48This man who you have tried to paint as an ogre arranged all these things for you, didn't
00:20:53he?
00:20:53Yes.
00:20:54Yes.
00:20:54At your request?
00:20:56Yes.
00:20:57Yes.
00:20:58And you didn't want your parents to find out that you were pregnant, did you?
00:21:01No.
00:21:02And who arranged that they shouldn't?
00:21:03Yes.
00:21:04Dr. Francis?
00:21:06Yes.
00:21:07Yes.
00:21:08And did you, in the end, pay anything at all towards this costly, time-consuming business?
00:21:14No.
00:21:15No.
00:21:17Now, I would like now to look at the treatment you received, Miss Spencer.
00:21:21Now, you've told my learned friend that you visited Dr. Francis on 12 occasions.
00:21:26Yes.
00:21:27Well, did you keep a record of this?
00:21:29No.
00:21:31Well, I'm instructed, Miss Spencer, that you, in fact, visited Dr. Francis on 47 occasions.
00:21:37No.
00:21:37Well, you said that your visits occurred about once a week.
00:21:41Yes.
00:21:41Yes.
00:21:42Yes.
00:21:42And that you first visited Dr. Francis when you were 14 weeks pregnant.
00:21:46Yes.
00:21:46Yes.
00:21:47And that you then had the baby sometime during the 36th week.
00:21:50Yes.
00:21:52Well, the mathematics are very simple, Miss Spencer.
00:21:54It shows that you were under Dr. Francis' care for 22 weeks, which means, by your own testimony,
00:22:01you must have visited him on 22 occasions.
00:22:03I don't know exactly.
00:22:06Of course not.
00:22:07You kept no record.
00:22:10And, of course, you were under severe strain at the time, were you not?
00:22:14Yes.
00:22:14Yes.
00:22:16And, in fact, you visited him twice a week, or were visited by him twice a week, although
00:22:22many of these were, as it were, unscheduled visits.
00:22:25I hardly ever saw him once a week.
00:22:28Now, this bill that you mentioned to his lordship, if bill it was, was for 500 pounds?
00:22:33Yes.
00:22:34Yes.
00:22:34What was that for?
00:22:35Do you know?
00:22:36For me.
00:22:37For your treatment?
00:22:38Yes.
00:22:39Yes.
00:22:39What part of your treatment?
00:22:40What was it for the nursing home?
00:22:44For the operation?
00:22:45For the treatment as the pregnancy went on?
00:22:48For the treatment of some infection or other what?
00:22:50I don't know.
00:22:52You don't know?
00:22:54And the reason is that the bill never existed, did it?
00:22:56It's a figment of your imagination.
00:22:58No, it's true.
00:23:00But you don't know what it was for.
00:23:04Now, Miss Spencer, you have said, and it is a serious allegation, that Dr. Francis put
00:23:10pressure on you to sign this consent to adoption.
00:23:13Now, you did say that, did you not?
00:23:14Yes.
00:23:15Yes.
00:23:15And you've implied that part of this pressure consisted of Dr. Francis threatening to tell
00:23:20your father.
00:23:21Yes, he did.
00:23:22Well, are you seriously saying that the threat that Dr. Francis would tell your father that
00:23:27you had a baby in some way pressurized you into agreeing to have the child adopted?
00:23:32Yes, it did.
00:23:33But, Miss Spencer, had you not signed that consent, had you not agreed to have the baby
00:23:38adopted, you must have evisaged your father finding out.
00:23:41A baby's a very difficult thing to conceal, particularly as it grows older.
00:23:44I wasn't going back to me father.
00:23:47In that case, he wouldn't have found out anyway.
00:23:50Now, I suggest that when you began talking about keeping the child, Dr. Francis merely advised
00:23:56you that you would have to square things with your father somehow.
00:23:59Yes.
00:23:59Yes.
00:24:00And that this prospect so frightened you to such an extent that you willingly signed the
00:24:04consent.
00:24:05No.
00:24:06But your father did frighten you, did he not, Miss Spencer?
00:24:09Yes.
00:24:10You see, Miss Spencer, I suggest to you that you've been through an emotional and very trying
00:24:14time.
00:24:15I suggest that you've experienced feelings of fear, even perhaps of guilt.
00:24:19And in this emotional turmoil, you have mistaken your wisest and most compassionate counsellor
00:24:25for your enemy.
00:24:27No.
00:24:27The case of the Queen against Francis will be resumed tomorrow in the Crown Court.
00:24:57The jury in the case of the Queen against Francis has heard how Sylvia Spencer, a young girl
00:25:14from Birmingham, came to Fulchester last year wanting an abortion.
00:25:19Dr. Jonathan Francis advised her to have the baby, assuring her that he could arrange adoption.
00:25:24After the baby was born, he placed it with another of his patients, Mrs. Hine, who paid
00:25:29him £2,000.
00:25:32Any payment for adoption services is illegal if the adoption is in any way conditional
00:25:37on that transaction.
00:25:39It is alleged that Mrs. Hine was deceived into paying the money.
00:25:44What is your religion?
00:25:46Church of England.
00:25:47Take the book in your right hand and read aloud the words on this card.
00:25:50I swear by almighty God that the evidence I shall give shall be the truth, the whole truth
00:25:59and nothing but the truth.
00:26:05You are Mary Agnes Hine of 23 Birchington Road, Fulchester?
00:26:10Yes.
00:26:11Do you know Dr. Jonathan Francis?
00:26:14Yes.
00:26:15Is he your doctor?
00:26:16Yes.
00:26:16Um, he was.
00:26:19When did you first become his patient?
00:26:21In 1971.
00:26:23You were consulting him, were you not, because of your apparent inability to bear children?
00:26:27Yes.
00:26:28How did you first hear of him?
00:26:30My, uh, husband met him at the Rotary Club.
00:26:34Can you tell me about the early stages when you first went to see Dr. Francis?
00:26:38I went to see him, um, we both went, myself and my husband, and, uh, he talked to us, asked
00:26:45us about it, and, uh, um, he gave us both tests.
00:26:50They seemed to be all right, and, well, certainly my husband was all right, and he told us we'd
00:26:57have to go on trying.
00:26:59Um, he put me on a diet.
00:27:01That he wanted me to, um, put on weight, and, um, I used to go and see him regularly, and
00:27:09he gave me injections.
00:27:11He used to encourage me, and tell me I was right as rain, and, and so you were visiting
00:27:20him regularly, and at this time you still thought that there was a chance you could conceive.
00:27:24I still hoped, yes.
00:27:25But sometime later, I believe you had a test which rather put paid to this hope.
00:27:29Could you tell us about that?
00:27:31Yes, well, uh, there's nothing to tell, really.
00:27:36I, I had the test.
00:27:37He, uh, did it in the clinic, and he said, um, it wasn't very good, and he'd found out
00:27:45why, and, uh, did I want to give up?
00:27:47I said, no, I wanted to try every avenue open to me.
00:27:52And what did Dr. Francis advise?
00:27:54An operation.
00:27:56Well, I, um, forget the name of it.
00:27:58Did he hold out much hope of this operation being successful?
00:28:01Oh, we both hoped.
00:28:02He, he was always very comforting, but he, he said it definitely wasn't certain.
00:28:06But he realised how much it meant to you to have children.
00:28:09Yes, me and my husband.
00:28:11Women commonly feel that they're letting their husbands down if they are not able to have
00:28:15children.
00:28:16Did you feel this?
00:28:17Oh, well, you see, my husband was very understanding.
00:28:19Yes, I'm sure he was.
00:28:20But did you personally feel that you were letting him down?
00:28:23I suppose I did, in a way.
00:28:25And did you tell Dr. Francis this?
00:28:27Yes.
00:28:30And, uh, what was the result of the operation?
00:28:35It's hard to say, really.
00:28:39It was still no good.
00:28:41And what did Dr. Francis say after the operation?
00:28:44Well, he said it was a bit better.
00:28:46He had a bit of hope, but we'd have to go on trying.
00:28:50But you still did not conceive?
00:28:52No.
00:28:54Did you continue to see Dr. Francis after the operation?
00:28:57Yes.
00:28:57I had another test and he kept me on injections to keep me, you know, to keep me healthy.
00:29:05I see.
00:29:06Now, this operation was in October of 1972, was it not?
00:29:10Yes.
00:29:10How soon after this did he mention the possibility of adoption?
00:29:14Oh, my lord, the witness has not said, as my learned friend's question implies, that
00:29:17it was Dr. Francis who raised this possibility first.
00:29:19Yes, I apologise.
00:29:20Mrs. Hine, did Dr. Francis mention the possibility of adoption to you during your treatment?
00:29:26Well, later on, yes, he did.
00:29:28He said, uh, I wasn't to forget, I could always adopt.
00:29:31Which of you first mentioned adoption?
00:29:33He did.
00:29:34And after the operation, did you or he first mention the possibility of adoption?
00:29:38He mentioned it again.
00:29:39He mentioned it?
00:29:40Yes, he said we should think seriously about it.
00:29:43And did you decide to take his advice?
00:29:45In June, last June, things weren't looking too good and we decided we would.
00:29:54Did you tell him you were going to?
00:29:56Yes.
00:29:56I went, um, to see him and he told me some societies, um, to go and see the people at the council.
00:30:08He said there probably wouldn't be much help but to go and see them anyway.
00:30:12Did he say to let him know how you got on?
00:30:14Yes, he did.
00:30:15And how did you get on?
00:30:16Not very well.
00:30:23None of the societies didn't seem to be interested in us.
00:30:30How many did you go to?
00:30:32Countless, countless.
00:30:33Your husband in his evidence said four.
00:30:35Oh, maybe we only went to see four but all it was ringing them up and writing to them.
00:30:40I think I tried every adoption society in England.
00:30:43We went to the local ones, I think that's four, and the people at the council but we had no luck at all.
00:30:48Did you tell Dr Francis this?
00:30:50Yes.
00:30:50When?
00:30:51Well, we were getting, well, not desperate but we were thinking of giving up at the end of October
00:30:58and I rang Dr Francis at the beginning of November.
00:31:02And what did he say?
00:31:02He said he'd see what he could do and not to worry, always said not to worry.
00:31:09And when did you first hear that he had a child for you to adopt?
00:31:15My husband came home about the second week in January and he told me.
00:31:29What did he say?
00:31:30That he'd been to see Dr Francis.
00:31:35He thought he'd got us a child.
00:31:38And how did you react?
00:31:40I was very pleased.
00:31:43And after your husband told you the news, did you then go and see Dr Francis?
00:31:49Yes, we went to see him the next day.
00:31:52And what happened?
00:31:53Well, he told us it was a little girl.
00:31:55She was about a week old and if we got everything ready, we could have her in a fortnight.
00:32:00Was there any mention of money at this meeting?
00:32:03Well, he told us about the girl and all her difficulties, the treatment and expenses.
00:32:12And, well, my husband and I, we offered to pay for the medical expenses if it was in order.
00:32:17My husband had suggested that to Dr Francis the day before.
00:32:20Did you offer to contribute or to pay all the expenses?
00:32:23All of them.
00:32:24And what did Dr Francis say?
00:32:26He said he could see nothing wrong with a voluntary payment.
00:32:29Those were his words and that it was very generous of us.
00:32:33Did he mention a particular sum?
00:32:35Yes, I gave him £500.
00:32:39Now, was this £500 the full amount that you paid him?
00:32:43No, he said that the cost of the treatment had been almost £2,000.
00:32:48Didn't that seem an awful lot to you?
00:32:50Yes, it did.
00:32:50And we asked him about it because we were afraid the baby might not be all right.
00:32:54You see, if the mother had had all that trouble, we were afraid the baby might be affected.
00:32:58And did he reassure you on this point?
00:33:00Oh, yes, he said some things, that she'd had an operation, a nursing home and, oh, lots of things.
00:33:12Anyway, we didn't like to argue just as long as it was all right.
00:33:15And so you had no other reservations about paying this money?
00:33:18No, we just asked if it would be all right.
00:33:21If the baby would be all right?
00:33:22No, no, if it was all right for us to pay this money for the mother, legal.
00:33:26Yes, but why did you ask this?
00:33:28Did you think it might be wrong?
00:33:31Well, it's hard to say, really.
00:33:34I mean, we knew you weren't allowed to pay for a baby.
00:33:38Yes.
00:33:39Well, something worried me.
00:33:44I suppose I did think it might not be all right.
00:33:47And he said it definitely would be all right and it was just medical expenses?
00:33:52Yes.
00:33:52Yes, and did you accept this?
00:33:53Yes.
00:33:54Now, is it possible that some of this money was for treatment which you yourself had received from Dr. Francis?
00:34:01Absolutely not.
00:34:02I paid my bills every year.
00:34:04He always sent us a bill at the end of every year and I paid it immediately.
00:34:08My solicitor's got all these accounts, all the checks.
00:34:10It's all been paid.
00:34:11Are we going to see these accounts?
00:34:13They were to have been entered as exhibits, my lord, but they do not specify what treatment it is it was paid for.
00:34:19They're quite unspecific and not disputed.
00:34:21Yeah.
00:34:23Mrs. Hine, did you ever consult Dr. Francis on matters other than gynaecological ones?
00:34:28No.
00:34:28Did you never consult him about a cough or a cold?
00:34:31No.
00:34:32Well, who did you consult on these matters?
00:34:34My GP, Dr. Young.
00:34:36Yes, and so you are certain that the £500 that you paid Dr. Francis was inseparable from the £1,500 that you paid him
00:34:44and that he represented the whole amount as being payment for the natural mother's expenses?
00:34:49I'm certain, yes.
00:34:52And did you pay this £500 by cheque or in cash?
00:34:55By cheque.
00:34:56During this meeting, was there any discussion as to how the balance of the £2,000 was to be paid?
00:35:02I said we could pay it later.
00:35:04When you received the child?
00:35:05No, he didn't say that, just later.
00:35:08Did he say how he wanted this money paid?
00:35:10Yes, in cash.
00:35:12Did that surprise you?
00:35:13Yes, but he said he didn't want the tax man to think it was for treatment, since it was for this girl.
00:35:20It was to do with tax.
00:35:21And you accepted that as a genuine reason?
00:35:24Yes.
00:35:24Now, Mrs. Hine, I want to be absolutely sure that I understand.
00:35:32Now, you say that you honestly believe, because of what Dr. Francis had said,
00:35:36that this payment was for Ms. Spencer's medical expenses
00:35:39and that it was quite proper for you to pay it.
00:35:42Yes.
00:35:43Yes.
00:35:46Now, when did you take charge of the child?
00:35:49Two weeks later.
00:35:51Did you go and collect it?
00:35:52Yes, we went to Dr. Francis's house.
00:35:54And did you then pay the further sum of money?
00:35:56Yes.
00:35:57£1,500?
00:35:58Yes.
00:35:58Was this in cash, as he had asked?
00:36:00Yes.
00:36:00And so you received the child?
00:36:03Yes.
00:36:04Did you ask Dr. Francis about the adoption proceedings?
00:36:07Yes.
00:36:08He said we'd have to go to the magistrate's court later on to have the adoption finalised.
00:36:13Had Dr. Francis taken care of the legal side of the adoption as well as everything else?
00:36:17Yes, he arranged all that.
00:36:18And did you then take the child home?
00:36:20Yes.
00:36:21Now, what happened when you went to the magistrate's court?
00:36:28It had been cancelled.
00:36:29Did you know why?
00:36:30No.
00:36:31We asked.
00:36:32There was a man there.
00:36:32He said it had just been cancelled.
00:36:34That's all.
00:36:35Had no one warned you?
00:36:36No.
00:36:37When did you find out why the hearing had been cancelled?
00:36:40We tried to get in touch with Dr. Francis and we couldn't.
00:36:43Why couldn't you?
00:36:44Well, I don't know.
00:36:45He just wasn't there.
00:36:46He wasn't available.
00:36:46I don't know.
00:36:47But we couldn't.
00:36:48Mrs. Hine, how did you find out about the hearing being cancelled?
00:36:53The next day, two plainclothes police officers came round and they said it was concerning
00:36:58the baby.
00:36:59We asked them why the hearing being cancelled and they said there were some inquiries to
00:37:03make.
00:37:04Did they ask about payments of money?
00:37:06Yes.
00:37:07And what did you tell them?
00:37:08Oh, the truth.
00:37:09That we've just paid some money for the mother's medical expenses.
00:37:18I suppose it would be true to say, Mrs. Hine, that you are very much concerned to try
00:37:35to keep this child.
00:37:36Yes.
00:37:36And you appreciate that if you had been involved in anything improper, it would severely jeopardize
00:37:42your position.
00:37:43Yes.
00:37:44Mrs. Hine, when you went to see Dr. Francis, your husband had already told you about the
00:37:52baby.
00:37:52Yes.
00:37:53And you had made up your mind to adopt it.
00:37:55Pretty well.
00:37:56Pretty well?
00:37:57Well, what were your reservations?
00:37:59None, really.
00:38:00No.
00:38:01So, you went to see Dr. Francis.
00:38:03Now, what did he say to you about the money?
00:38:05Well, he told us about the baby and the child, and he said there was this £2,000 to pay.
00:38:16Well, he must have said more than that, surely.
00:38:18Yes.
00:38:18Try to be precise, Mrs. Hine.
00:38:21How exactly was the subject of payment broached?
00:38:24He said there was this £2,000 to pay for medical expenses.
00:38:27Now, was this before or after you had said that you would adopt the child?
00:38:35Afterwards.
00:38:35He told us about the baby, asked if we were interested in adopting, and said there was
00:38:39this amount to pay.
00:38:41And you did not query this payment?
00:38:43No, just as long as it was all right.
00:38:45And did you ask for a detailed breakdown of what the expenses were?
00:38:49Not really.
00:38:50And Dr. Francis said that the money was for medical expenses.
00:38:54Yes.
00:38:54Yes.
00:38:55No mention of whose medical expenses?
00:38:56Yes, for the mother.
00:38:58Really?
00:38:59But you told his lordship just a moment ago that he said that there was £2,000 to pay
00:39:03for medical expenses.
00:39:04Nothing about for the mother.
00:39:05But that's what he said.
00:39:08The fact is, Mrs. Hine, you know very well that the £500 you paid that day by cheque was
00:39:13a settlement of Dr. Francis' fees for your own gynaecological tests and treatment, leaving
00:39:18approximately £1,500 being the cost of Miss Spencer's hospitalisation and operation which
00:39:24you and your husband offered to pay.
00:39:26No, no, nothing like that at all.
00:39:28And which Dr. Francis accepted only in the belief that the adoption was in no way conditional
00:39:33on this payment.
00:39:34I have no further questions, my lord.
00:39:40Mrs. Hine, you paid £2,000 for the mother's medical expenses, Dr. Francis, and then the
00:39:50police came and told you that the medical expenses were only £500.
00:39:53Sir, they then suggested to you that you might have paid £1,500 for the baby, making it an
00:40:01illegal payment.
00:40:01Yes.
00:40:02And you explained, as you did today, that if the medical expenses were only £500, then
00:40:08you had been deceived.
00:40:09My lord, may I ask if you propose to continue this line of questions?
00:40:13Yes, I do.
00:40:14Then, my lord, might I respectfully suggest that Mrs. Hine should be warned of her privilege
00:40:18against self-incrimination.
00:40:20Her right not to answer any questions which might lead to incriminate her.
00:40:24Oh, I'm very much obliged to you, Mrs. Dixon.
00:40:27You understand that, Mrs. Hine, you don't need to answer any questions which might tend
00:40:31to incriminate you.
00:40:32Yes.
00:40:33Now, during the two weeks which preceded your taking charge of the infant, were you visited
00:40:39by a social worker from the local authority?
00:40:42Yes.
00:40:43And did this woman ask you about any payments you had made to Dr. Francis?
00:40:46Among other things, yes.
00:40:47And what did you tell her?
00:40:49About the money.
00:40:50Hmm.
00:40:50Well, the truth, that we hadn't given him anything.
00:40:54But you had, Mrs. Hine.
00:40:55Yes, but it wasn't for him.
00:40:57It was for the mother.
00:40:58He said it was for the mother.
00:40:59Why did you not feel that you could explain this to the social worker?
00:41:02I thought she might misunderstand.
00:41:05And if she misunderstood, you feared you might lose the child?
00:41:08Yes.
00:41:10Did you tell Dr. Francis about this meeting?
00:41:12Yes.
00:41:13And what did he say?
00:41:14He said it was best not to mention it, as it was for the mother.
00:41:17He said I'd done the right thing.
00:41:20I see.
00:41:21Yes.
00:41:21Now, during the period between the time that you took charge of the child and the time
00:41:28when you expected the adoption hearing, were you visited again by this social worker?
00:41:32Yes.
00:41:33And did she again ask you about payments to Dr. Francis?
00:41:36Yes.
00:41:36And what did you tell her this time?
00:41:37The same.
00:41:39That you had paid Dr. Francis nothing?
00:41:41Yes.
00:41:41But, Mrs. Hine, by this time, you had paid Dr. Francis some 2,000 pounds.
00:41:47Yes, but it was for the mother, he said.
00:41:50Why did you persist in this falsehood?
00:41:52But it wasn't.
00:41:53It was true.
00:41:54Dr. Francis told us to say that.
00:41:56Anyway, it was...
00:41:57Everything was so nearly over, it didn't seem to do any harm.
00:42:00Now, did this social worker tell you that any such payment would be illegal if the adoption
00:42:05of the child was conditional upon the transaction?
00:42:08All we'd done was pay for the mother's medical expenses, her treatment.
00:42:11Did she tell you that it would be illegal?
00:42:13It was too late.
00:42:14By then we'd paid it.
00:42:15So she did tell you it was illegal?
00:42:18What could we do?
00:42:19We'd already paid.
00:42:21Are you in the habit of lying persistently as you did to this woman?
00:42:25No.
00:42:26Now, when the police came to see you at your home, this was a shock, wasn't it?
00:42:32Yes.
00:42:32Particularly when you realised that you might have connived at something that was illegal.
00:42:36Not on purpose.
00:42:37The adoption hearing had been postponed and you were anxious to keep the child.
00:42:42Which, by now, you've probably come to look upon as your own.
00:42:44We did.
00:42:45We do.
00:42:46Now, have you told the truth when you say you believed that this payment was for the mother's
00:42:52medical expenses and that you volunteered it?
00:42:54Or are you saying all this just to get yourself off the hook?
00:42:56It's the truth.
00:42:57But, Mrs Hine, when you were able to lie as you did to the social worker, are you now
00:43:03asking this court to believe that you were under the impression that this large payment
00:43:08was for the medical expenses of one pregnant woman?
00:43:14Or are you saying all this because you fear the child will be taken from you?
00:43:17It's not true, my lord.
00:43:19I want the baby.
00:43:20I can give it a good home.
00:43:24Very well.
00:43:26I have no re-examination, my lord.
00:43:29Thank you, Mrs Hine.
00:43:30You may go.
00:43:31That, my lord, concludes the case for the prosecution.
00:43:35I call the defendant, Dr Jonathan Austen Francis.
00:43:41You are Dr Jonathan Austen Francis of number two Rodney Close Fulchester?
00:43:45Yes.
00:43:46Yes.
00:43:46And you are a registered medical practitioner?
00:43:48Yes.
00:43:49And is Mrs Hine one of your patients?
00:43:52She was, yes.
00:43:54Dr Francis, were you visited by Miss Sylvia Spencer on the 17th of August last year?
00:43:58Yes.
00:43:59And what was the purpose of her visit?
00:44:01She wanted an abortion.
00:44:02Now, could you tell the court why you were unwilling to perform an abortion?
00:44:06Well, I never like to perform an abortion, is the short answer to that one.
00:44:09But Miss Spencer wanted an abortion.
00:44:11Did she?
00:44:13Well, she said that she did.
00:44:14Ah, yes.
00:44:15Well, that's a very different thing, isn't it?
00:44:17You see, I do perform abortions, that is true.
00:44:20If a case falls under the terms of the Abortion Act.
00:44:23But if a girl walks into my surgery, as Sylvia did, and says, I'm 18 weeks pregnant and I
00:44:28want to get rid of it, oh, 14 weeks, I think she said she was 14 weeks and I want to get
00:44:32rid of it, I just don't say, fine, give me the money and we'll do it right away.
00:44:36Not at all.
00:44:38It was very clear to me that she had a puritanical father of whom she was terrified.
00:44:43And it was to prevent him finding out that she was pregnant.
00:44:47And to a lesser extent, because her boyfriend had left her, that she wanted this abortion.
00:44:51I couldn't agree to that.
00:44:53First and foremost, because it's a very bad reason, and secondly, because there was a
00:44:56high risk involved.
00:44:58And that is why I didn't take the matter any further, didn't even attempt the second opinion
00:45:02required under the Act.
00:45:04Also, she would have involved herself in expenses far beyond her means.
00:45:07What did you advise her to do?
00:45:10I advised her in the first place to leave home.
00:45:14She was very frightened of this idea at first.
00:45:17Above all, she wanted to know what would happen if she decided to have the baby but didn't
00:45:22want to keep it.
00:45:23And I told her, women all over England who'd envy her, and that I could find her a dozen
00:45:29who'd be willing to adopt it tomorrow, and not to worry.
00:45:34And so you did mention adoption to her?
00:45:36Well, naturally.
00:45:37It's the first thing to mention to a girl who feels her child isn't wanted.
00:45:41It prevents her feeling trapped.
00:45:44It takes away the idea that a termination is the only last resort.
00:45:47And did you offer to nurse her through her pregnancy?
00:45:50I said that, wait a minute, we're jumping ahead a little.
00:45:53First of all, she decided she would leave home and come and stay with her friend Valerie
00:45:57Goff, my receptionist, as you know.
00:46:00Valerie's mother didn't think very much of this idea, but that's another story.
00:46:04Then she said, if she decided not to have the abortion, could she come and see me?
00:46:09And I said, of course.
00:46:10And that is the arrangement we came to.
00:46:12Now, did you take any money from her?
00:46:14Not a penny.
00:46:15Now, Miss Spencer's treatment turned out to be far more complicated than you could have envisaged,
00:46:19did it not?
00:46:20Far more.
00:46:21Could you tell us about that?
00:46:23Yes.
00:46:24You see, having advised Sylvia for various sound reasons to have this baby,
00:46:31I was obviously, to some extent, responsible for her well-being.
00:46:35Now, the general state of her health was not very good,
00:46:37and I think that this, combined with the fact that she was away from home for the first time,
00:46:42caused her to become rather depressed and run down.
00:46:45And not a good state for a pregnant woman, I think you'll understand.
00:46:49It makes her much more susceptible to infection.
00:46:53I put her on a course of vitamin injections,
00:46:55folic acid, intramuscular iron injections, and so on.
00:47:00But in spite of this, she developed an infection of the urinary tract,
00:47:05which could have become nasty and which I treated,
00:47:07and then she was in need of sedation,
00:47:09and she was depressed and became more depressed,
00:47:12and so on and so on.
00:47:14In fact, it was a very nasty pregnancy.
00:47:17Yes.
00:47:18Now, how often were you seeing her at this time?
00:47:20Oh, two or three times a week.
00:47:23I tried to get her to go to a national health doctor,
00:47:26but to no avail.
00:47:27Well, did she refuse?
00:47:28On the contrary, she always agreed.
00:47:29She just never did anything about it.
00:47:32And then it was necessary to deliver her by caesarean section.
00:47:35Now, why was that?
00:47:37Well, I diagnosed what is called a placenta previa.
00:47:41She had an antepartum hemorrhage, which is a slight loss of plant,
00:47:45and I could tell from this and from examination
00:47:47that the placenta was blocking the neck of the womb,
00:47:51in which case the child wouldn't have been able to emerge.
00:47:54It would quite literally have run into the placenta.
00:47:58I see.
00:47:58And so you performed a caesarean section?
00:48:00Yes.
00:48:01Now, what did this involve you in the way of expense?
00:48:05Well, it involved Sylvia going into a very good nursing home,
00:48:08which had operating theatre facilities, which very few of them have,
00:48:11and staying on after her operation for some weeks.
00:48:15Four weeks in all, I think.
00:48:17You see, you must remember,
00:48:19she was living away from home,
00:48:21and all the care and attention that a normal patient would get from their family,
00:48:26Sylvia had to get professionally.
00:48:28That is to say, she had to pay for it.
00:48:31The case of the Queen against Frances will be resumed tomorrow in the Crown Court.
00:48:58Dr. Jonathan Frances is now giving evidence in his own defence
00:49:23after he's been charged with obtaining money by deception.
00:49:26He was paid £2,000 by one of his patients, Mrs. Hine,
00:49:30after he'd arranged for her to adopt a baby.
00:49:33Such a payment for adoption services is illegal,
00:49:37but he claims that the money was for legitimate medical expenses.
00:49:41It is alleged that he thus deceived Mrs. Hine into paying him.
00:49:44He now explains how he was able to act as a go-between for two of his patients,
00:49:49a girl who wanted an abortion and an infertile wife.
00:49:53I have treated a lot of women who were having difficulty in conceiving,
00:50:00but I've never come across any to whom it seemed to matter as much as it did to Mrs. Hine.
00:50:05Did it amount to a neurosis?
00:50:07It did indeed.
00:50:08Were there any particularly marked symptoms of it as a neurosis?
00:50:11Well, she had what we call a pseudosiesis in the early stages of her treatment.
00:50:18It's a phantom pregnancy, a hysterical pregnancy, whatever you care to call it.
00:50:22Would you tell us about this?
00:50:23Yes, she came to my surgery.
00:50:25When was it?
00:50:25Oh, she'd had tests, oh, early in 72, convinced that she was pregnant.
00:50:31Tummy out to here, very pleased with herself.
00:50:33Simply wind and water.
00:50:35I told her, but she refused to believe me.
00:50:38Eventually, I had to have her x-rayed and show her,
00:50:41and it disappeared while I talked to her.
00:50:44Her pregnancy disappeared?
00:50:45No, not her pregnancy. Her wind and water disappeared.
00:50:47Do you think this was a nervous symptom of her desire to have children?
00:50:51It was a symptom, undoubtedly, yes.
00:50:53She was desperate while she sat...
00:50:55I've made it as clear as I can. She was obsessed.
00:50:58Yes.
00:50:59And did you finally have to tell Mrs. Hine
00:51:01that her chances of conception were negligible?
00:51:04Yes, I did. To do otherwise would have been wrong.
00:51:06Yes. How did she take this news?
00:51:08Very bravely.
00:51:10I could see that she was shattered, very depressed.
00:51:13The fact of the matter is she'd guessed already.
00:51:15She'd drawn her own conclusions, and they were basically correct.
00:51:19And did you at this time talk to her about adoption?
00:51:22I did indeed. It seemed the next logical step.
00:51:25Yes. Now, when was this?
00:51:27June.
00:51:28And did you tell her to make every effort to arrange her own adoption?
00:51:31Yes.
00:51:31With no thought of taking any part yourself?
00:51:33That's right.
00:51:34Yes.
00:51:34Do you know what date in June?
00:51:37Yes. June the 15th.
00:51:39Uh-huh.
00:51:39And when did you first see Miss Spencer?
00:51:42Sylvia?
00:51:42Oh, not until August.
00:51:45So when you first talked to Mrs. Hine about adoption, you had not met Miss Spencer?
00:51:48No.
00:51:48Had you heard of her from Miss Goff, your receptionist?
00:51:52No.
00:51:52No.
00:51:53And so you did not have her child in mind when you first spoke to Mrs. Hine?
00:51:56I didn't have any child in mind when I first spoke to Mrs. Hine.
00:51:59In fact, I didn't have it in mind that I should be involved in the adoption at all.
00:52:03I told her to go to the adoption societies.
00:52:05And she took your advice, as we have heard.
00:52:08Now, Mrs. Hine returned to you after some time and told you she was having no luck at all with the adoption societies.
00:52:12Did she not?
00:52:13Indeed.
00:52:14Yes.
00:52:14Did this surprise you?
00:52:16Well, it did, frankly, yes.
00:52:17They were, are an eminently suitable couple for adoption.
00:52:22And did you sympathize with their plight?
00:52:24I was very sorry for them, yes.
00:52:26And when did you hear from them about this?
00:52:28Oh, early November.
00:52:30Now, was this about the time that Miss Spencer was due to have her child?
00:52:33No, no, no, no, no, no.
00:52:34Sylvia had a hemorrhage early in January.
00:52:37If her baby had gone full term, it wouldn't have been due until mid-January.
00:52:40No, I wasn't expecting Sylvia's for quite some weeks yet.
00:52:44And so what did you tell Mrs. Hine?
00:52:47Not much.
00:52:48To keep on trying and I'd see what I could do.
00:52:50Yes.
00:52:51And what happened?
00:52:52Well, Sylvia hemorrhaged.
00:52:54I realized I'd have to do the caesarean section.
00:52:56And, well, it went from there.
00:52:58Yes.
00:52:59Had Miss Spencer mentioned to you during the latter stage of her pregnancy that she wanted to have the child adopted?
00:53:04Yes.
00:53:05Yes.
00:53:06So you were faced with the situation of having two patients.
00:53:08One whom desperately wanted a child and the other who wanted to get rid of her child.
00:53:13Now, in these circumstances, what did you do?
00:53:15Well, I did the obvious thing.
00:53:18I telephoned Mr. Hine and asked him to drop in and see me.
00:53:21And I put it to him.
00:53:22This was in early January?
00:53:23Yes.
00:53:24Yes.
00:53:24What exactly did you say to Mr. Hine?
00:53:27Everything.
00:53:28Well, as far as you can remember, particularly concerning the financial aspect of the matter.
00:53:32I told him I might be able to arrange an adoption for him.
00:53:35That it was possible.
00:53:37Well, he naturally, he accepted on the spot.
00:53:39He said he didn't have to think about it.
00:53:41Why should he?
00:53:42He and his wife had spent six months hawking around the adoption societies.
00:53:46He knew what they felt.
00:53:47I was being a bit formal in suggesting that they talk it over, but one likes to do these things properly.
00:53:54Yes.
00:53:55Could you tell his lordship and the jury about any mention that was made of money at this meeting?
00:53:58Yes.
00:54:00I told him that the mother was financially embarrassed and that the pregnancy had been a difficult one.
00:54:05And he volunteered to pay for her treatment.
00:54:08Well, now, this put me in a very difficult position.
00:54:10I didn't feel in all conscience I could refuse money offered for Sylvia, but on the other hand,
00:54:16I wasn't going to put my career in jeopardy by accepting what I knew could be construed as an illegal payment.
00:54:22So what did you do?
00:54:24Well, I agreed to act as a go-between, no more.
00:54:27On condition that the money was paid in cash and that no mention of it was made to anyone,
00:54:30I warned Mr. Hine that it could be construed as an illegal payment
00:54:35and that the adoption could in no way be dependent upon it.
00:54:39You did make this clear to him?
00:54:41I made it clear to him that, and afterwards to Mrs. Hine, although she wasn't all that attentive,
00:54:46that this must be a philanthropic gesture on their part.
00:54:49Why did you mention the mother's financial situation to Mr. Hine in the first place, Doctor?
00:54:54I didn't specifically, my lord, but I think Mr. Hine gathered from my description of Sylvia's case
00:54:59that she might be in straightened circumstances.
00:55:03I see.
00:55:05Now, did Mr. Hine accept that his gesture must be philanthropic,
00:55:08that it could be in no way binding on the mother?
00:55:10He said he did, yes.
00:55:11Now, you said just now that one of the conditions on which you agreed to accept the money on Miss Spencer's behalf
00:55:16was as long as they told no one and that the money was paid in cash.
00:55:20Now, why did you make these conditions?
00:55:22Well, for fear that an incorrect construction could be put upon the payment.
00:55:27Remember, we're only talking here about payment for Sylvia's treatment.
00:55:31Yes, I will come to Mrs. Hine's treatment later.
00:55:33Now, how much did Miss Spencer's treatment come to in all?
00:55:36£1,475.
00:55:38Yes.
00:55:38And is that the amount you received from Mrs. Hine?
00:55:41Yes.
00:55:42Now, could you tell us what the money was for in a bit more detail?
00:55:45Well, if I might prefer to my notice.
00:55:47Yes.
00:55:49Sylvia had 47 consultations, 45 antenatal to postnatal.
00:55:54Well, I charge £15 per consultation, that's £705.
00:55:59Treatment, that's drugs and so on, £170.
00:56:03The nursing home in which he spent 14 days at £25 a day was £350.
00:56:07Yes, what did he say?
00:56:09The nursing home was £350, my lord.
00:56:12Yes.
00:56:12Well, surely there should be a receipt for this sum from the nursing home.
00:56:16My client had a regular arrangement with the nursing home.
00:56:19It is a common practice to book beds without giving the patients names.
00:56:22And in this case, these are not itemised on the accounts.
00:56:26But the total account for the year, however, was £1,575.
00:56:30But this is not broken down.
00:56:32How very convenient for Dr. Francis.
00:56:35And the operation costs £250, including the cost of the theatre and anaesthetist fee.
00:56:41And that is a total of £1,475.
00:56:44And that is what I received.
00:56:45And you made no charge for arranging the adoption.
00:56:48Oh, no.
00:56:48Now, are your charges cheap or expensive or...?
00:56:52Very expensive.
00:56:54But I am.
00:56:55I make no apologies.
00:56:56Are they comparable with what you would normally charge?
00:56:58Yes.
00:56:59Yes.
00:56:59Now, Mrs. Hyne has said that you were paid £2,000.
00:57:02Indeed.
00:57:03The £500 odd was for gynaecological treatment for Mrs. Hyne.
00:57:07A great deal of nonsense has been talked here about there being a single payment of £2,000.
00:57:13There was never a single payment.
00:57:15There were two separate sums.
00:57:17And, of course, this £500 being for her own treatment was paid by cheque.
00:57:22The way Mrs. Hyne always paid.
00:57:25I really ought to say that the allegation from Mrs. Hyne that the reason I wanted the other money in cash was to avoid tax or some such thing is utterly absurd.
00:57:33Yes?
00:57:40We have heard that Mrs. Hyne settled an account with you yearly.
00:57:44Yes.
00:57:44Well, what was this treatment for?
00:57:46Well, other treatment.
00:57:46Coughs, colds, all that sort of thing.
00:57:48She had allergy symptoms, I remember, a rash, sneezing, all that sort of thing.
00:57:52And she consulted you about these?
00:57:54Yes.
00:57:54Mrs. Hyne has said that she consulted another doctor about these.
00:57:57Well, it doesn't surprise me at all.
00:57:59Quite in character.
00:58:00Was she prone to illness or thinking she was ill?
00:58:04You mean, if you mean, was she a hypochondriac?
00:58:06Yes, she was.
00:58:07She had a very healthy appetite for talking about her complaints and so on.
00:58:10But that's all right.
00:58:13That's what doctors are for.
00:58:14Yes.
00:58:15Now, Mrs. Hyne came to see you the day after you saw Mr. Hyne about this adoption.
00:58:18Did she not?
00:58:19She did indeed.
00:58:20They both did.
00:58:20And did she agree to it readily?
00:58:23Well, she'd already made up her mind.
00:58:25It was a foregone...
00:58:26Look, I know you've got to ask all these questions, but surely it must be plain to everyone that
00:58:31Mr. and Mrs. Hyne were dying to adopt.
00:58:35Yes.
00:58:35And did she and her husband confirm their offer of money?
00:58:39Yes.
00:58:40And she also very kindly paid for her treatment there and there.
00:58:44And that is the cheque she gave you for £500?
00:58:46That is correct, yes.
00:58:47Now, did you get the impression that she understood that this payment of £500 was for her own treatment?
00:58:52I didn't get the impression.
00:58:53I'm certain of it.
00:58:54Did she query anything?
00:58:56Nothing.
00:58:57Now, did she ask you whether it was all right for them to pay the mother's cost?
00:59:01No, she didn't mention it.
00:59:02But I told them that they must regard it as a gift for the mother.
00:59:08How many third-party adoptions have you arranged, Dr. Francis?
00:59:27I couldn't say. I've not counted them.
00:59:29Quite a few, though.
00:59:31A few? Not quite a few.
00:59:32Well, would you be surprised to know that you are registered as having arranged seven of these adoptions in six years in Fulchester alone?
00:59:40Really? Not surprised, no.
00:59:42You must have provided a handsome supplement to your income.
00:59:46Oh, really, my lord. That suggestion is quite impermissible.
00:59:49Oh, I think not, Mr. Golding.
00:59:51Your client has put his character in.
00:59:53However, I agree that Mrs. Dixon must be bound by the answers and will not be able to take these matters very far.
00:59:59Well, I must make a difference.
00:59:59Oh, that is my ruling, Mr. Golding.
01:00:01Now, do, let's get on.
01:00:02Dr. Francis, Mrs. Dixon has suggested that these adoptions handsomely supplemented your income.
01:00:08Not really, my lord.
01:00:09Most of these I would have done for friends.
01:00:11I wouldn't even have been involved, except perhaps to give the child a medical check-up and see that the right people were notified.
01:00:17Isn't it the case that you have ready access to a lot of unwanted children
01:00:21and make a very substantial income by providing these children for patients who are not able to have their own?
01:00:27No, it is not.
01:00:28But do you frequently not encourage girls to have their unwanted children and even offer them inducements
01:00:35so that you can then, as you so euphemistically put it, arrange for their adoption?
01:00:40It is in no way a euphemism, and it's not what I do anyway.
01:00:42Well, you certainly did so where Sylvia Spencer was concerned, didn't you?
01:00:45I felt a responsibility for her, and I arranged an adoption.
01:00:48Yes, you must forgive me, Dr. Francis, if I appear to be sceptical about this feeling of responsibility
01:00:52which you have mentioned so often during your testimony.
01:00:55In fact, the only feeling of responsibility you had was towards that child for which you knew you would get a very handsome price.
01:01:02You have no grounds for that assertion.
01:01:03Have I not?
01:01:05Then tell me, why did you not merely refuse to perform an abortion for Sylvia Spencer,
01:01:09but actively discouraged her from seeking one elsewhere?
01:01:12She could have sought one elsewhere.
01:01:14Yes, but you discouraged her.
01:01:15You told her it was dangerous, and you said that you thought she might want to keep the child.
01:01:20I told her to consider these things.
01:01:22And you said that whatever decision she came to, you would not perform the abortion, did you not?
01:01:25Yes, I did.
01:01:26And you also told her that she was too late to have an abortion, didn't you?
01:01:30I told her it could be dangerous at her stage of pregnancy.
01:01:32And you also said it was beyond her financial resources.
01:01:34Which it was.
01:01:35Well, if this is not discouragement, Dr. Francis, you and I are using different definitions of the word.
01:01:39I have not denied that I may have been discouraging.
01:01:41Nor have you agreed.
01:01:42Now, you listen to me.
01:01:44A year ago, I refused to perform an abortion on a 16-week pregnancy.
01:01:48And when that unfortunate girl found someone else to do it, she died.
01:01:52Can you comprehend that?
01:01:57We are talking of Sylvia Spencer.
01:02:04Now, you were willing to give her elaborate and expensive treatment.
01:02:08Why?
01:02:10I couldn't let her die.
01:02:11Nor apparently could you let her go to a national health doctor.
01:02:14Because then her child would have been out of your reach, wouldn't it?
01:02:17I tried to get her to go to a national health doctor.
01:02:19She has said that you didn't.
01:02:22Suddenly, from believing that she really wanted the child,
01:02:27you realised that she didn't want the child after all.
01:02:30And, of course, by then it was too late to terminate the pregnancy.
01:02:36How did that change of mind come about?
01:02:38Faced by the realities of the situation on her own, away from her family.
01:02:42At your suggestion.
01:02:43Which she would have had to have been anyway, even if she decided to keep the child.
01:02:47She suddenly found that life was too tough for her.
01:02:49But with all your experience, could you not tell that within eight weeks,
01:02:53this change would have taken place?
01:02:54I thought she was more resilient.
01:02:56You appear to have a less profound psychiatric insight than you would have us believe.
01:02:59I wouldn't have you believe.
01:03:01I have a profound psychiatric insight at all.
01:03:03I am not a psychiatrist.
01:03:04Evidently.
01:03:05So why did you not take a second opinion from someone who was when you first saw Miss Spencer?
01:03:09It wasn't necessary.
01:03:11But you did think it necessary to deliver this child by caesarean section.
01:03:14Yes.
01:03:15Now, this means that the mother does not bear the child.
01:03:22She need not, in fact, ever see the child.
01:03:25That's right.
01:03:26Why did you think it necessary to perform this operation?
01:03:29Do you want technical details?
01:03:32Well, you have said that she had an antepartum haemorrhage,
01:03:35which indicated to you a placenta previa.
01:03:37Then why are you asking me?
01:03:40You have also said that Miss Spencer had a loss of blood, have you not?
01:03:43Slight.
01:03:44But Miss Spencer said she saw no sign of blood.
01:03:48How do you explain that?
01:03:49She failed to notice.
01:03:50Then why did you not point it out to her?
01:03:51I suggest, Dr. Francis, that the reason you performed this caesarean section
01:03:56was so that Sylvia Spencer would never see her baby
01:03:59and therefore would have no chance to form an attachment to it.
01:04:02That is a monstrous suggestion.
01:04:04It is.
01:04:05And I suggest that that is the case.
01:04:11You're wrong.
01:04:13Well, have you a single shred of corroborative evidence
01:04:16that that operation was necessary?
01:04:18What an absurd question!
01:04:20Of course I've got no corroborative evidence.
01:04:21Why should I have?
01:04:22I don't go round asking second opinions on such elementary matters.
01:04:26I'd be a laughingstock.
01:04:26But even the patient herself cannot provide this evidence.
01:04:28The patient herself is a dozy...
01:04:30Oh.
01:04:35She isn't very bright, is she?
01:04:39You've said that you put her on a course,
01:04:41several courses, of injections, have you not?
01:04:43Yes.
01:04:44And yet she can't remember them.
01:04:46Difficult things to forget, one would have thought.
01:04:47And these injections contributed to that phenomenal bill
01:04:52which you say, Miss Spencer, incurred.
01:04:53They did indeed.
01:04:55Folic acid, you have mentioned,
01:04:57iron injections, vitamin injections, all these things.
01:04:59Yes.
01:05:00Iron tablets currently sell for 16 pence per hundred.
01:05:05And a complete course in vitamin tablets for nine months
01:05:08would only cost 56 pence, that's right?
01:05:11But those are all...
01:05:11So it's about 90 pence for a complete pregnancy.
01:05:14Intramuscular injections are far more effective.
01:05:17The point I am making, Dr. Francis,
01:05:18is that your entire testimony concerning Miss Spencer's treatment
01:05:21has been a medical mumbo-jumbo,
01:05:24concocted to confuse the jury
01:05:25and to make a rather pedestrian pregnancy
01:05:28appear to be a huge financial undertaking
01:05:30in order to hide the staggering price
01:05:33which you extorted for this baby.
01:05:34This is absolute rubbish.
01:05:36You don't know what you're talking about.
01:05:38I suggest to you that Miss Spencer's treatment
01:05:40costs five or six hundred pounds at the most.
01:05:43It cost 1475 pounds.
01:05:45Then why did you give her a bill for 500 pounds?
01:05:47I didn't.
01:05:48She dreamed it.
01:05:49The cost was 1475 pounds.
01:05:56Now, Miss Spencer's child was born on the 4th of January, was it not?
01:06:00Yes.
01:06:01Did Sylvia Spencer ever see her baby after it was born?
01:06:03I think not.
01:06:04Why not?
01:06:05She didn't want to.
01:06:06Did you encourage her to see it?
01:06:07Yes.
01:06:08And yet she has said that you wouldn't let her see the child.
01:06:11Why would she say that, do you think?
01:06:12Guilt, perhaps, at not wanting her own child.
01:06:16Well, why did you not take the child to see her?
01:06:18I didn't want to force her to increase her feelings of guilt.
01:06:21Isn't the true reason that you had already put it beyond her power
01:06:24to see the child by giving it to Mrs. Hine
01:06:26from whom you had already taken 2,000 pounds?
01:06:29But Mr. and Mrs. Hine had agreed that the payment and the adoption
01:06:33were entirely separate.
01:06:35But why didn't you not wait until Miss Spencer was certain
01:06:38she didn't want the child,
01:06:39or at least until after she'd signed the consent?
01:06:41But she did sign the consent.
01:06:43Miss Spencer can hardly have come round from the anaesthetic.
01:06:46And as you yourself have said,
01:06:48a mother can feel very bad after a caesarean,
01:06:51and that can, can it not, affect her attitude towards the child.
01:06:54I thought you didn't trust my psychiatry.
01:06:56I'm not asking your opinion, Dr. Francis.
01:06:57I'm asking you if it isn't a well-known fact.
01:06:59No, I don't think it is a well-known fact.
01:07:01She knew what she was doing.
01:07:03She wanted me to handle it as quickly as possible.
01:07:05She lives in Birmingham.
01:07:07She wanted to go home
01:07:08and have the whole thing finished with as quickly as possible.
01:07:11I put it to you that you had no intention
01:07:13of letting Sylvia Spencer get her hands on that child,
01:07:16and that you hustled and bamboozled her at every turn,
01:07:18and that she depended on you to such an extent
01:07:21that she believed everything you told her.
01:07:23That simply is not true.
01:07:31Now then, you've said that Mrs. Hine came to your practice
01:07:35in the first week of January
01:07:36and accepted your offer of this infant.
01:07:38Yes.
01:07:39And you've also said that you told her what she would have to pay.
01:07:42What she would have to pay and for what she would have to pay it.
01:07:45That £500 was for her own treatment.
01:07:47Yes.
01:07:48And you've told my learned friend
01:07:49that you were Mrs. Hine's GP as well as her gynaecologist.
01:07:52Yes.
01:07:52Which she denies.
01:07:56You've also said that she is a hypochondriac.
01:07:59Yes.
01:08:00And yet you yourself have told us that since June,
01:08:03when you finally advised her
01:08:04she was unlikely to be able to have children,
01:08:06from June until January she ceased to consult you.
01:08:11Now is it possible that such a hypochondriac as you have described
01:08:15could go so long without seeing a doctor?
01:08:16Well, evidently she didn't think she was ill.
01:08:19Yes, but it's not necessary, is it, for a hypochondriac to be ill?
01:08:21You'd have to ask her why she didn't consult me.
01:08:24The reason is very plain.
01:08:25She did not consult you because you were not her GP
01:08:28and that £500 was for the baby and not for her treatment.
01:08:32And it is also plain that Miss Spencer's treatment
01:08:34did not cost what you have claimed
01:08:36and that the money you took from Mr. and Mrs. Hine
01:08:38was not to cover that treatment but to pay you for the baby.
01:08:42That most certainly is not the case.
01:08:43And in view of the seven other adoptions you have arranged,
01:08:46I would like the jury to consider whether it is not probable
01:08:49that this is a continuing operation
01:08:50which you have been undertaking for some time.
01:08:53That suggestion is beneath contempt.
01:09:04Members of the jury, as I expect you know,
01:09:08the prosecution must prove the accused guilt
01:09:12to your entire satisfaction before you can convict.
01:09:17So that means that you must be sure
01:09:21that the accused did induce Mrs. Hine to make that payment
01:09:26representing that the money was for Miss Spencer's medical expenses
01:09:30and that his statement of what those expenses were was false.
01:09:35Dr. Francis is not on trial before you
01:09:40for any part he might have played
01:09:42in an illegal payment for the adoption of a child.
01:09:46But something which learned counsel have not mentioned
01:09:48is the possibility that neither party
01:09:50viewed these payments as payment for medical expenses.
01:09:55And you must consider this
01:09:56because in that case Mrs. Hine was not deceived
01:09:59about those expenses.
01:10:01She was simply a willing party
01:10:04to a corrupt transaction for the adoption of a child
01:10:06and paradoxically enough
01:10:08the accused would not be guilty
01:10:10of the charge he now faces
01:10:12namely obtaining money by false pretenses.
01:10:16Will you now please retire and consider your verdict?
01:10:19All stand.
01:10:20Members of the jury
01:10:30will your foreman please stand.
01:10:33Just answer this question yes or no.
01:10:35Have you reached a verdict upon which you are all agreed?
01:10:38Yes.
01:10:39Do you find the defendant Jonathan Austin Francis
01:10:42guilty or not guilty of obtaining property by deception?
01:10:45Guilty.
01:10:46Is that the verdict of you all?
01:10:48Yes.
01:10:50Jonathan Austin Francis
01:10:53the verdict of the jury is that you are guilty
01:10:56of obtaining property by deception.
01:10:59The jury have found the evidence conclusive
01:11:01that in gross breach of the standards
01:11:06expected of your intelligence and of your profession
01:11:08you took advantage of the position of trust
01:11:11which you occupied with one of your patients
01:11:13and using your knowledge of her unhappy situation
01:11:17you obtained from her by lies
01:11:20a very large sum of money.
01:11:23If this were not your first offence
01:11:25I would sentence you
01:11:26to a considerable term of imprisonment.
01:11:30As it is,
01:11:31secure as I am in the knowledge
01:11:32that the members of your own profession
01:11:34will not allow you to disgrace their numbers
01:11:35for longer than is absolutely necessary
01:11:37I find myself able to pass a sentence
01:11:40which will not deprive you of your liberty.
01:11:44The sentence of this court is
01:11:45that you pay a fine of £1,500.
01:11:48You will also pay £1,500 compensation to Mrs. Hine
01:11:51and £500 towards the cost of the prosecution.
01:11:55Next week, you can join the jury in assessing the facts
01:12:09when our cameras return
01:12:10to watch another leading case
01:12:12in the Crown Court.
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