- 8 months ago
The Moors Murders: A Search for Justice is a gripping true-crime TV series that revisits one of Britain’s most infamous cases. Exploring the chilling crimes of Ian Brady and Myra Hindley, the show uncovers the devastating impact on victims’ families and the relentless pursuit of justice. Through archival footage, expert interviews, and investigative storytelling, this series sheds light on the dark psychology behind the murders and places them within the wider context of notorious serial killer cases worldwide.
If you are fascinated by true crime documentaries, historical investigations, and the pursuit of justice, this series offers a sobering yet essential look at how society confronts unimaginable evil.
If you are fascinated by true crime documentaries, historical investigations, and the pursuit of justice, this series offers a sobering yet essential look at how society confronts unimaginable evil.
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TVTranscript
00:00Hello?
00:07John, it's Duncan.
00:09Duncan, hello.
00:10The Moore's Murders, which I have not been near for a very long time.
00:15He has also written a book on the Moore's Murders.
00:18Duncan's staff joins us now.
00:20There's been so much written, broadcast...
00:22Keith Bennett has not been found. I think that's why the case has remained.
00:25I've come across the original case files from the 60s.
00:29It raises all sorts of questions for me.
00:32How do you think it's going to help find Keith?
00:37October 1965, Saddleworth Moore suddenly became a grisly household name.
00:44The victims, it was rumoured, were all young children,
00:47all of whom had disappeared from the Manchester area.
00:51Five murdered children.
00:56Edward Evans.
00:58Leslie Ann Downey.
01:01John Kilbride.
01:04Pauline Reid.
01:07And Keith Bennett.
01:09And at the heart of the case, a couple who killed them.
01:13Pressmen, cameramen, sightseers, all converged as the police began one of the most extensive murder searches in history.
01:21People think, oh, the Moore's murders. I know what the Moore's murders are. It's all in the past.
01:28Myra Hindley and Ian Brady are dead. The thing's done and dusted.
01:33But if you look at it, the case isn't closed.
01:38How on earth have you got your hands on these?
01:42There's been so many missed opportunities with this story.
01:51And we can't let this be another one.
01:53Hopefully, some new evidence will come to light. It's got to be.
01:59Hello, Ian.
02:00All right? Yeah.
02:01The only thing I'm allowed now is a fucking electronic typewriter.
02:05And I certainly don't want those personal files to get into the wrong fucking hands.
02:11You're going to have to declare this to the police.
02:26That's Hyde Police Headquarters, the centre of one of the biggest ever police search operations in this country.
02:31Inside now, detectives are studying a police file, which day by day grows in content.
02:39And it's collecting evidence which might confirm the killings of young children.
02:44As a journalist, there are some stories that you can't walk away from, no matter how much you might want to.
02:51The Moore's murders have cast a dark shadow for 60 years.
03:10I first started working on the case when I questioned Myra Hindley about her version of events.
03:23I met her in the 1990s, and I asked her where Keith Bennett is buried.
03:28I never got a clear answer.
03:31That's why, whether I like it or not, I'm still working on the case all these years later.
03:40A lot of the paperwork disappeared after the trial of Myra Hindley and Ian Brady.
03:45These trial transcripts which were in here, I tried to get those decades ago and the Crown Prosecution Service told me they'd all been shredded.
03:56When I was told that the original defence case files still existed, I went to look at the material and I was astonished by what I found.
04:06Notes written by Myra Hindley and photographs taken by Ian Brady, all put together by the defence team in the 1960s.
04:20Do you think there's any more to be said about the Moore's murders?
04:25There's still a body on the Moore's.
04:28Keith Bennett hasn't been found.
04:30The reason this stuff matters is because at the time it was put together, Ian Brady and Myra Hindley were charged with just three murders.
04:42We now know they'd carried out at least five.
04:45I feel I've got a responsibility to look at this, to examine it and just to see what's in there, see if it takes us anywhere.
05:04I don't know how to find bodies, so if there's evidence here that could help find Keith, it needs a specialist, it needs professionals.
05:15The hardest cases I think I've ever dealt with in my career are child deaths.
05:24When you hear the term Moore's murders, you understand immediately the magnitude of that case.
05:33My ambition has always been to be a detective.
05:49My career in the police lasted a full 30 years.
05:53I've been exposed to some of the most difficult and challenging police investigations in my career, you know, largely around homicides.
06:01When I left the police, you know, I looked around at how I could use my expertise.
06:07But the one that I eventually chose was to use my skill set to examine potential miscarriages of justice.
06:14It motivates me every day that when I open up a new case, I really immerse myself and look for where the mistakes may have been made.
06:22Fitzpatrick, who is Braley and Hindley's solicitor, has kept all this material.
06:36He's kept every scrap of paper that Myra Hindley and Ian Braley wrote.
06:39He's kept every single log of every single interview he had.
06:42He knew that the material he had here was of historical importance, but I think he also knew that this wasn't done and dusted.
06:52It wasn't over. And that's why he's kept it.
06:56And here it is, finally emerging after 60 years.
06:59It was a big step to let Duncan see the files. It was a major step.
07:16You know, I take my responsibilities as a solicitor very seriously.
07:24I did as much research on Duncan as I could.
07:29Somewhere on this part of the moor lies the grave of Keith Bennett.
07:33Duncan Staff, BBC News, Saddleworth Moore.
07:36I liked him. Quite posh.
07:41Duncan, it's Myra. Can you confirm, in a short note, that you got my letter insane?
07:53I would have loved to have met Hindley to try to form my own opinion as to how much more she did actually know
08:01and whether she led everybody on a wild goose chase.
08:07She changed the story so many times to suit whoever was her patron at the time.
08:14Throughout the investigations, the authorities have been concerned about the public's reaction to the macabre story that was unfolding.
08:21And on this day, their fears were confirmed.
08:23When Brady and Hindley were arrested, they were arrested in Hattersley, which is probably two miles from here.
08:35Hattersley, a Manchester overspill area, is the epitome of respectable working-class suburbia.
08:42Rows of new brick boxes, the odd skyscraper block of flats, and rents of £3 a week.
08:47It seemed incredible that this estate could be associated with the lurid rumours of mass murders.
08:56What we've got here is a forensic account of how the police found 17-year-old Edward Evans.
09:04It was a murder in a house, someone beaten to death.
09:07And here is a map of the crime scene.
09:12I had the terrible feeling that something had happened to him right away because he wasn't the kind of boy who would leave home for any reason.
09:31And he was quite happy and very pleasant. Always singing and whistling. I just couldn't see him going away with anyone.
09:47Newspaper report about a missing girl, Leslie Ann Downey.
09:52She had disappeared on Boxing Day 1964 on her way to a fair in Manchester.
09:56The police carried on investigating and they found a suitcase and left luggage office at Manchester Central Station.
10:07Yet more disturbing reports of a gruesome tape recording and a number of pornographic photographs.
10:15There were pictures of Leslie being abused before she was murdered.
10:22But there was also a tape recording and it's that tape recording that really sank Myra Hindley because it proves that she was there when a child died.
10:32Hindley said she didn't know that Brady was tape recording the session and that she was ashamed when she heard the tape played later.
10:38This is the transcript of the tape. It's just completely brutal and uncaring. And this is the murder that she struggled with when she was writing to me.
10:52She didn't write about it. She wrote about all the others, gave an account, but with this she couldn't deal with it.
10:58And the reason I think she couldn't deal with this is because she couldn't put herself away from it.
11:02In this grave, they found the body of a young girl. Ten months after her disappearance, ten-year-old Leslie Ann Downey had been found.
11:15That's Brady's handwriting. He's writing to his counsel. He's bothered by something. Here we go.
11:28Photos and recordings, inadmissible, urgent. Essential not to permit either accused to give sworn evidence as to any recordings or photos made by them.
11:38He's really bothered about the pictures. He doesn't want to be questioned about them. Trying to keep evidence out of the case.
11:46Five days after the discovery of Leslie Ann Downey, the police found another body. That of 12-year-old John Kilbride.
11:54John, who had vanished almost two years before, was found only 400 yards from the grave of Leslie Ann Downey.
12:01But even more significant was the clue that led the police to this spot.
12:05This was a snapshot, but the place where Myra Hindley was crouching wasn't just anywhere.
12:10So they found John Kilbride and Leslie Ann Downey, but they knew there were other children missing.
12:23The search was called off.
12:24We know that Ian Brady took at least one image on top of a grave. Myra Hindley told me when writing to me that he had a system for recording where bodies were buried using photographs.
12:42So when I see a photograph here that is so very similar to an existing grave marker, I think, what is happening here? What is there to be gleaned from these images?
12:59Martin, good to meet you at last? Yeah, good to meet you at last. Come on in.
13:16Let's see what you make of this lot.
13:22So we've got witness statements, trial testimonies, that's transcripts from the trial.
13:28These are defence papers, so interviews with Brady and Hindley for their defence.
13:33Photographic exhibits, transcripts, transcripts.
13:36Wow.
13:37I couldn't believe it was there, couldn't believe it existed.
13:41What's fascinating is that Myra Hindley wrote a note about every single police interview.
13:49So this is before, I think before they found John Kilbride. Have a look at that note there.
13:54Only about Jake Kilbride, who Mouncey said he was interested in, and Kay Bennett, who Tyrrell was interested in.
14:05That's a clear reference that they've spoken to Hindley, at least, about Keith Bennett's disappearance.
14:11Yeah.
14:13Was there any mention in any of the material here that you've read of Keith and Pauline at this stage?
14:19Yes.
14:21So what I've got here is a trial transcript, and Joe Mouncey is being questioned by the judge, Mr Fenton Atkinson.
14:29And he says, there were four missing children at this stage.
14:33And Mouncey answers, Kilbride, Downey, Reid and Bennett.
14:39And the Attorney General, who's prosecuting, asks, were these matters that you as police officers were under a duty to investigate?
14:46Most certainly, sir.
14:47So you can definitely see that they were part of the investigation.
14:51But this is the really fascinating bit.
14:53Does your Lordship consider it necessary to give another warning to the press that this matter should not be reported at this stage?
15:00In other words, Reid and Bennett were not to be written about or spoken about.
15:05And the judge replies, I'm sure the press will not be reporting this.
15:08I can understand why the judge gave that instruction, because clearly that would have pledged this to the jury.
15:13Yeah.
15:14And got them thinking beyond the facts of the case.
15:16I think this decision by the judge forbidding the press from writing about Keith and Pauline, I think that's one of the reasons the case just vanishes.
15:34So this must have been produced as an exhibit, exhibit 122 at the trial.
15:47Yeah, so Brady was a really key photographer. He took hundreds and hundreds of pictures. This is his personal album, which the police seized.
15:57We've got family portraits, a number of pets, and then this.
16:02That's Leslie and Danny's grave.
16:05So that's just interspersed in the middle of the album.
16:09It's so clear from these files that the police in the 1960s realised that many of these photos had a hidden meaning.
16:17So here we have Brady's picture.
16:22There's the matching shot done by the police.
16:26They've worked out that the stones were in exactly the same place, and they dug down.
16:31And then they found the grave of John Kilbride.
16:35These photos were clearly key to the police case of the 1960s, but what doesn't make sense to me is why they would then stop looking.
16:43I'm going to see Sandra Wilkinson, who's one of the few surviving members of the original police investigation in the 1960s.
17:02She was there when the whole case was being put together.
17:05I'm really curious about why did they stop, why they focused on the three murders, and what they knew about other cases.
17:18Hello.
17:20Hello, Sandra.
17:21Come on in.
17:26There you are. Help yourself to that.
17:30A few bits and pieces here you might remember, but I'll show you them in a minute.
17:33I'm sure.
17:36Well, you're certainly keeping it alive, aren't you?
17:39I've actually stayed away from it for years. I didn't want to go near it.
17:41And the only thing that's brought me back is this paperwork.
17:44How on earth have you got your hands on this? On these?
17:48It's from the defence files.
17:51So tell me about what happened the day that the case came in.
17:54It was a normal Thursday morning except for the fact that Superintendent Talbot, he came in and said to me, get your coat, we've got a murder.
18:06What did you have to do to bring it all together?
18:08I was collecting the paperwork, the statements, that sort of thing.
18:13Did you do these?
18:17It's all the witness statements.
18:19Well, in that case, yes, I did.
18:22Yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely.
18:24Could you tell me about court?
18:26He sat me right next to the exhibits.
18:28There was Mr. John Kilbride's coat.
18:33Of course, with it having been buried, they have this acidic smell.
18:39Brady sort of shrugged and put his head down and it was as if he'd accepted his fate.
18:48Had he been alone, worked alone, I don't think it would have made such a big impact.
18:51She was luring children to the deaths.
18:55Him to kill, I think that's horrendous.
18:58Up to then, we didn't think women ever did that sort of thing, but she did.
19:05A sick woman.
19:12Do you think they'll ever open the case again?
19:16I think the police really only want to know if there's an X marks the spot for Keith.
19:19What's fascinating looking at these original files is it kind of all comes together.
19:24You see that there were multiple images of graves, it's not just one.
19:28And that's one thing that I hadn't really understood until I looked at these files
19:32and saw how it all fitted together.
19:34What I do wonder about these pictures is, where's Keith Bennett?
19:38Do they have a relevance to that?
19:40So I think it's worth looking at.
19:43But then you've got to take into account the manpower and the cost.
19:46Yeah, maybe it's almost easy for it to be looked at independently.
19:51To say, you know, is there anything in this?
19:54And then for there is, you take it to the police.
19:56Was there any sense of frustration at all knowing that Keith Bennett wasn't being pursued at the time?
20:01No, there wasn't frustration. It was an acceptance that we'd done our best. We'd all done our best.
20:09And the police had done a marvellous job already. And it was just one of those things. We had to shut down at that time.
20:15Do you think there would have been an option of keeping going at the time?
20:20No. Definitely not, no. It was time to draw a line under it for that time, at that time.
20:25I think the basic policing there was marvellous. It was basic policing, police work that brought it to a conclusion.
20:35We couldn't go on any further. But we were living in different times. And I think times were tougher in the 60s. They did the best.
20:46Once they had the three convictions, they could clearly have kept going. I can see why they did it. I can see why they thought,
21:01Oh, this is really tough. We're going to let it go. But do I think that that was the right decision?
21:06Well, deep down, no, I don't. Did that serve the interests of the families? No, I don't think it did.
21:11And did it serve the interests of the general public? I don't think it did that either.
21:18In my mind, you've got Ian Brady left in charge. He knows he's still got bodies missing on the moor.
21:26He's got control over those bodies. And the families of those victims are still suffering.
21:33It's very hard to see how that's right.
21:41In the 1960s, Myra Hindley and Ian Brady were charged with the murders of Pauline Reid and Keith Bennett.
21:51So are these pictures any use to us in those cases?
21:56So in this photograph taken by Ian Brady, Leslie Ann Downey's grave was found just above that.
22:01But what we now know is that it's quite close to where they found Pauline Reid as well.
22:06The latest chapter in the affair came after a senior detective visited Myra Hindley at Cookham Prison in Kendry.
22:20Detective Chief Superintendent Peter Topping said that she had agreed to cooperate with the police.
22:38Police officers, some of them armed, took Myra Hindley 200 yards from the road to an area that she had pinpointed.
22:52I discussed with her in detail and she could recall what she'd never said before.
23:07That when she'd been on the moor, she could see rocks silhouetted against the night sky.
23:13Now that took you further back into the moor on Holland Brown Knoll.
23:18We found the gravesite of Pauline Reid.
23:26The body was discovered in a part of the moor known locally as Holland Brown Knoll.
23:32Not far from the spot where the body of Leslie Ann Downey was found almost a quarter of a century ago.
23:37There's so much information there that supports the proposition that Pauline Reid's burial location was being plotted by Brady in the photographs.
23:52And that the police might have been able to explore that and expose that.
23:56If you got this kind of evidence in the 60s, why not continue the search of this area for Pauline and or Keith at that time?
24:04And that would have saved 20 years and more of heartache for the Reid family.
24:19When I was 13, Dad said, the founder, the founder, thank God the founder.
24:25He jusqueen-all.
24:27You always get, oh it's that year, it's that real year. You know, you get all that.
24:40You know, that's why I wear sometimes my cap.
24:43I like to keep my head down so nobody knows, no... knows me.
24:50knows me I don't know yet if any of the photos in the case files relate to Keith Bennett but
25:00I'm absolutely certain that there are several pictures linked to Pauline Reed thank you got a
25:12drink around uh you have a mind of tea tea yeah how's your rabbit today yeah it's all right he's out
25:19running around I think what's his name Sandy Sandy yeah I'm kind of conscious that me coming here today
25:29and talking to you about this stuff is it is is difficult and I'm worried about that I'm worried
25:34it puts you under um too much pressure it needs to be done it needs to be said I mean I'm like
25:40sort of like that's one you can really speak for my family mm-hmm I first started doing work on this
25:48when them Hindi was trying to get out of prison and she claims that she was bullied into the case by
25:52Brady and so there was a chance of her being released at the time so what I did was I wrote her and said
25:59can I test your claim that you're bullied bullied into everything by Brady but then what happened
26:05when Hindley died was people close to her knew that there might be material in her paperwork
26:10that could help find Keith I did they were worried about dealing directly with the police so they
26:17said would I go through it and pass on anything that was relevant to the police you think yet the
26:22families are the right to look at them pay for what you got that's a very fair point because I thought I
26:27was doing the right thing by going to the police that yeah but we're going to please but you should
26:30come to us evidence should come to the families you know so we can see we we've still going through it
26:36yeah well I'll share things with you now do you want me to take you through some of the stuff that's
26:41in the files it would but only if you want to see it yeah so these pictures this evidence we don't
26:48think it was looked at fully in the 1960s so that's what we're doing now yeah so that's the original one
26:56that's on John Kilbride's grave this picture was taken by a photographic officer so you see the
27:01rocks so they did a matching image so this is before they found John that's how they then thought
27:07right we need to search here and do you recognize this yeah Pauline's yeah Pauline's up because I put
27:16flowers right there you put the flowers by those rocks yeah so Myra Hindley's taking the picture so
27:22she stood by Pauline's grave and yeah and this one here that's Pauline's grave in the background so
27:31this is another one I mean it's very similar to the one John Kilbride's grave isn't it even
27:38dog though is still small so it can't be that far apart yeah in the 1960s there were loads of
27:45pictures taken around but where Pauline was buried but then the investigation hasn't chased every
27:53single angle down to do with the pictures they stopped I didn't leave it I don't know I've been
28:02over the heads over the mines they they were securing the conviction weren't they so I think maybe they
28:09thought are they never coming out that's it job done it's not always it I mean there's poor kids out
28:15they shouldn't have stopped they shouldn't have stopped I mean the crew carried on you know what
28:22I mean if I'm many Pauline and hopefully maybe Keith you know they would have carried on earlier yeah it
28:28just it just jigsaw together to me as an injustice I was just crying and crying and thinking about what's
28:39happened in my mind and I kept thinking about it and I couldn't sleep through thinking about it and
28:47it builds up and builds up and I think that's what caused it my nervous breakdown even now I think about
28:55what's happening in my mind and I think about it and I think about it and I think about it and I think it's
29:01really important it's pointing that out on what the consequences are for your family and for Keith's family
29:07it's like you've been forgotten in it yeah yeah absolutely helpless that's how I feel so what is it that
29:19you you'd like you'd like to see now what do you think oh thank you thank you thank you thank you
29:25and if there's material that what these two in can be looked at needs to be looked at shouldn't have to
29:45wait any longer you know I mean for the answers what we need you be waiting long enough well thank
29:53you for letting me show you material and talk through it with you and I take the point about
29:57keeping you informed so I'll do make sure we do that lovely and speak again soon yeah yourself driving
30:15john it's duncan duncan hello you well i am thank you this is a surprise what uh what's afoot um
30:40moore's murders uh which i've not been near for a very long time um i've come across the original
30:48case files from the 60s particularly the work on the photographs is there it raises all sorts of
30:54questions for me how do you think it's going to help iron keith but i hope so there's no there's no
31:00point in looking at it unless there's unless it can advance things so you know that's my purpose
31:06yeah cheers john bye bye john and i have known each other for decades he's the founding father of
31:16forensic archaeology in other words finding bodies for police forces he really knows what he's doing
31:23and uh i think it'd be really valuable to get his input on it so uh is it looking like it is a
31:31great starting to smell a bit like one in a sense i suppose what i have in common with him is is a deep
31:41personal investment in the case it matters to me to involve him
31:45it happened when i was young and it gives a sort of uncomfortable feeling every time you think about
32:03it because it takes you back to what you felt when you were 14 whatever it was when you heard it on the
32:08radio or saw it on the television the sort of thing your parents warned you about talking to strangers
32:16so there's a sort of unconscious cloud if you like there all the time
32:32duncan likes to fly things past me when there's new information or he's seen something in the press
32:40to get an opinion which is fair enough that's what journalists do quite happy to help and support
32:46him because i know his motives are good
32:56so
32:58well we honestly thought we were going to find keith this has got a lot going for it because brady
33:28could have gone a long shiny brook out of sight of her and everybody else and there are two gullies
33:35uh a shallow one there and a deeper one here they've both got exposed peating and they're both
33:42possibilities it's probably my naivety or our naivety in going to where we did go because we believe
33:51fully everything or pretty much everything that brady and hindley told us about where they buried keith
33:57and where they took him
34:05myra hinley um she says that she followed them down the more they walk for quite a considerable
34:11way into the more brady goes into this gully with the boy and she says that she was instructed to
34:20a big lookout she said the boy was killed in this gully
34:39you know we thought we had all the right gear
34:42the right strategy the right way of doing it it's just one of those things and it was very sad because
34:47alan was there alan bennett keith's brother
34:53i remember watching i remember watching you know alan sitting by shiny brook
34:57his whole life has been has been marked by it and i really fell for him
35:02the chance to to see this through to to kind of finish and do everything that we possibly can even
35:09if it doesn't result in success just just to try um that just feels like feels like something that has to happen
35:20would it help you to see how the bodies were buried yes let's have a look at that
35:25okay so that's john kilbright's grave looking at it it's only about 20 centimeters
35:30from the ground surface to the top of the body isn't it it's a relatively
35:35shallow grave yeah so that's hurried and the location is incredibly risky isn't it because
35:41it's so close to the road yeah the cars are just there cars are just there it's almost in plain sight
35:47yeah so this is um the map of holland brown knoll the police created in the 60s to show how
35:56the photos related to john and leslie's graves so all these letters and numbers relate to different
36:04photographs can we see c7 is that c6 and c7
36:12c7 is looking across the road towards grave of john kilbride
36:24so the jonka brides gravy's in the background of that that's right
36:26this is brady's shot really yeah that's leslie and anne's grave so whereas in the past you thought
36:34oh a marker picture has got to be myra hindley slap bang on the grave well it's not there is it
36:40you know it's it's far more sophisticated than that i think what we're looking at is to see if brady
36:47had a system for mapping his graves that isn't particularly obvious i was just wondering looking
36:54at the pictures um they seem to point in two directions one is the the john kilbride direction
37:03and then the other is the leslie and downey direction we've got pauline reed along there too
37:09some are on the graves some are looking across graves aren't they yeah so just a chance that keith
37:17bennett is buried with all the other victims possibly it's very easy indeed to think along narrow lines
37:23because you've been doing it for so long now these images have come up which make me think
37:28quite fundamentally different if if keith's body is there
37:34it should also mean that brady and henley are complete liars
37:38taking us to the wrong place not exactly paragons of virtue are they
37:46i'm not sure whether brady and himley were telling the truth about where they took keith
37:50john's focus is now firmly on hollenbrown knoll but martin is asked to see all the evidence
37:58connected to ho grain and shiny brook
38:05so uh martin in the 2000s i wrote to him she sent out a series of maps
38:11first of all a hand-drawn sketch which is of the route she took with ian brady
38:14yes it's then detailed all in survey maps this is the one time she said exactly where she um
38:22was when keith bennett died she's located herself very precisely on the moor by ho grain and shiny brook
38:31and um here she's saying i sat here when keith was killed but she's not sending where the body is
38:37no again it's placing distance between her and and what actually happened to the victims
38:44there's always an element of distancing yeah
38:51there's a letter she wrote to me yeah only place she dealt with the murders other than in the
39:10confession to topping was in these letters she wrote a really detailed narrative of the murders and her
39:16role in them and this is her correspondence with her supporters i would say that whatever she had
39:24done she would be entitled to be considered for parole everybody should be considered after 10 years
39:31and she's been in prison now nearer 12 and 11. there's real chance she was going to get out
39:39and that's why ian brady in the mid 80s said that there were five victims
39:43and it was only at that point but she then chose to confess that was more likely to help her than
39:50continuing to lie this is all about getting out of prison get me out get me out i feel in all this
40:00stuff that's shaping everything's going to be taken with a pinch of salt yes i can't remember what
40:05prison he was in at the time he said he could send from my letters that i was drifting away from him
40:10he wrote what slogan do you have around your neck today and really nasty hurtful things until i
40:20finally decided that he'd begun to hate me so i wrote my last letter to him
40:27the relationship appeared to end in the early early 70s yes i i you know don't know for sure whether
40:33there was any contact afterwards or not could they have communicated between each other and conspired
40:39to lead the police investigation to hograin and shiny brook police have moved to a different part
40:46of saddleworth moore in their search for victims of the moors murderers now they're going to concentrate
40:51on an area a mile and a half away at shiny brook the part of the more where they think 12 year old keith
40:57bennett is buried the one thing that perhaps gives the team the more satisfaction is the hope
41:02that it will bring some peace to the family chief superintendent peter topping the head of manchester cid
41:09decided to reopen the moors investigation some said he was wasting his time mr topping said god help us
41:17when we come to the day when we don't investigate murder hindley led the police to areas she and brady
41:25visited more than 20 years ago her visit has changed the direction of the police search
41:32they both take topping independently to an area of saddleworth moore not previously relevant
41:40the group was seen making for shiny brook
41:45the visit was worthwhile and well justified but he's not pointed to a spot in the ground where i'm going to
41:51find a body and james anderson the chief council pulled the plug on it i think worried about it
41:57going on forever uh the same way the plug was pulled back in the 60s we know that the information that
42:02hindley did give to peter topping did directly lead to pauline reid's body being found yes you think oh
42:09she helped find pauline reid so she definitely want keith bennett to be found i mean that the real
42:15dilemma now is trying to work out at what point who told the truth you've got all of this unique
42:25material that myra hindley has given you the missing part for me is where is ian brady's material
42:37there is still a lot to do it's a shame that we're 60 years down the line
42:42doing it but um we'll keep going we'll keep exploring these areas
42:57hello john kern hello john good to see horrible way come in
43:04so we've got two areas that need to be looked at there's holland brown knoll and then over here we've
43:09got the hograin and shiny brook area what could be a possible burial site for keith i spent so long
43:18since the 1990s looking in the shiny brook hograin area on the basis of what brady and hindley has said
43:27i think that keith is not in that particular area so the next obvious step is to move towards the
43:33holland brown knoll area where the other three bodies are and the evidence for this direction is
43:41a number of photographs taken by and liam brady
43:47the position that hindley takes on this rock is focal to pretty much everything they've done
43:54so from there you can circle around that is their homicide domains where they've murdered and buried
43:59people i'd like to think that if that was the case then keith was in that area too
44:08that's a far cry from what i was thinking 15 years ago it might take me 15 years to get there as well
44:15john
44:18come on tell me what you can do that i haven't done
44:20okay so my my my working hypothesis at the moment is taking that that marker there yeah where myra's
44:29sat and where she's indicated where where she says she's sat yes of course and we can only go on what
44:34she said it's either maintaining a lie or it's or it's consistent truth um and you have to take a leap
44:40of faith myra hindi significantly when she went down hograin pointed peter topping and told him that
44:47she'd gone up onto the plateau near to the waterfall on shiny brook the police have searched a lot close
44:54to the waterfall because there are several pictures of myra in that area for me despite the fact that
45:02john and peter toppings team and various other search team over the years have really gone to town on
45:08searching shiny brook and and ho grain and and the excavations there there is still some areas of
45:14interest that we need to eliminate myra hindley's consistent account is that she sat on slightly
45:20high ground up on the plateau there she's been very precise about where she is yeah the most significant
45:27thing is that throughout myra hindley's accounts of all of the murders she always puts herself just
45:33away from the murder yeah yeah and the biggest anomaly is the first account she gives to peter topping
45:40and that is that brady and keith were only 25 to 30 yards away just into a dip just out of sight so
45:48she's now putting them back here where she's saying she sat it's so close to the other areas they
45:55searched but for me i'd have gone back to where myra hindley said she was sitting and i'd have worked from
46:01there they're out with yeah okay so what's the plan then from here i think we should go to shiny brook
46:11look at the ground as well and look at it through their eyes you know stand back on that same piece
46:16of land getting as close as possible to that x marks the spot that she she drew on the map yes
46:22retrace the steps that brady and hindley said that they led keith on the night he disappeared
46:31john doesn't think keith is in shiny brook but he's agreed to help martin look in that area
46:42you're ready for this john no
46:46i hate it i hate you you hate me yes that's not very nice john
46:50when i was asked to come back my mind was filled with horror you know this is not a place i like
47:08the vegetation's completely changed yeah
47:12the terrain is unforgiving like walking through snow or thick mud
47:17it's very tiring you have to watch your feet all the time
47:25when you stand up here you can't help but think about keith
47:29he enjoyed playing football enjoyed playing with his siblings
47:35and i find myself thinking about his last journey when he walked onto the moors with hindley and brady
47:40and never came out he would have been stumbling and falling getting more and more anxious more anxiety
47:51probably not wanting to go any further and asking a lot of questions particularly when the ruse is we're
47:57looking for a lost glove that we've left on the moor having been up there earlier
48:00the story she gave and the map that she drew
48:10tells us that they parked at the on the road there by the lay by
48:16and they walked him down here yeah they zigzagged across the stream there was a there was a track
48:22there you could do that yeah we've always assumed the plateau was on that side i think it's fair to say
48:28that it is yeah
48:36after what seemed ages i saw him turn round and point up the bank
48:41and i immediately made my way to the top looked around me but could see nobody not even ian and the child
48:48i see how grain and the main road up here and she's shiny block yeah shiny brook there she's put
48:59herself higher up yeah on the higher ground and just up above the ferns is the higher ground
49:06thinking about it if she's on the slightly higher bit then she's got sight back to the road
49:09and he's got cover by being a bit lower yeah absolutely and i think one of the significant
49:16things that both brainy and hindley say they scan the horizon with the binoculars and then they did
49:22that with pauline reed they used the binoculars to cover the ground to make sure they weren't being
49:26observed um so that that kind of resonates with maybe being just sort of a little bit higher in that
49:31area there wow as far as i know no one has done a really methodical search for that plateau there's
49:45certainly no record of it yeah which looking at it now it just seems so kind of blindingly obvious
49:52that somebody should have a go at that and at least if nothing else then eliminate it
49:56the plateau was quite exposed it was the exposure it was the main reason that we we rejected that as
50:05a possibility yeah hindley's saying i'm sat there just out of sight is that the area that's of more
50:13significance now i'm cemented that the area that we haven't searched previously is that plateau
50:26i wasn't planning ever to come back again but um somehow it draws one along you know a bit like
50:36a terrier i've got my teeth into this and i don't want to let it go
50:41trying to think well where can he be where can't you be what evidence is there for this what evidence
50:45is there for that so i don't want to give up on keith or his brother alan and at the same time
50:55i don't want brady to get away with it and i think that's very much a driving force
51:05if we can work out the way he was thinking gain an insight into his trickery
51:11i'll be a little machiavellian mind then maybe that would be a way to find keith
51:24he's been an education for me
51:35i've known the pastor for years you're a marvellous bride
51:40i mean he's often called the most evil number
51:46just like that
51:54we've been able to track down dr alan keatley's widow joan
52:04she has access to all of the material that alan accumulated in relation to ian brady letters and
52:12books and interviews and i think she's nervous about being identified and linked to ian brady
52:22she doesn't want her face to be seen
52:24we're incredibly grateful to you jane for allowing us access to this material
52:30six six big boxes well they came in a big white van with a h painted on the roof
52:36she came from ashworth hospital these lists were in the six boxes that came and i managed to tick off
52:44the ones that i've found so far
52:45it must be thousands all different subjects
53:04now speak to jade ward please dr keithley thank you hello hello all right all right yeah yeah
53:12these are recorded telephone conversations okay so the recorded conversations of brady and alan
53:19that's right i've been yet anywhere secondhand but otherwise any book on criminal psychology
53:27criminal or abnormal psychology here or lots of those of it these days he and brady had read a lot of
53:34the same book so they could always have intelligent conversations i mean which i mean alan enjoyed
53:40the discussions well they trusted each other but alan couldn't condone what he'd done
53:48there was always that in the background the first victim was pauline reed who was a girl on a way to
53:54dance um alan was head of religious studies at the sixth form college and alan wanted to do a course on
54:01evil and so he thought the most notorious murder case was the moore's murders and that was how it all
54:09started with letters and then the visit started
54:17can i speak to the lodge on the east gate please please yeah hello hello i wonder if you could make
54:22a note of a visit this coming sunday please yes yes dr keithley yes to see him brady i'll be there
54:30about two o'clock okay thank you bye i think he visited every three weeks he was there for hours
54:39did alan ever say what he hoped to get out of that um engagement with brady at that point in time what
54:45his motivation was joe alan really wanted to find out what really had influenced him yeah the psychology
54:52behind it really
54:57i think he writes there magnificence and he agrees with something that's been written out
55:04it's worthwhile just spending some time going through everything that he's had his hands on
55:09so this has come from brady and from his cell he's reading about the facade um dossier ski kafka
55:22prost the drivers behind his his imagination and his actions i can see already that there's some
55:30some notations there he could speak german and understood german newman ward ashworth i've got
55:38you tobacco everything else uh bring me if you want anything no not at a moment yeah bring me if you
55:43want anything right we went on holiday took all these books all alan wanted to do was read
55:51and i didn't say very much to friends or some members of the family i think because they thought
55:58of him as an evil person if they're brady's famous dark glasses i think they must be alan didn't have any
56:11if you ever write more books you can use my letters freely
56:15brady's letter to ak 11th march 2010 why don't you write a book yourself then trawl through
56:23the seedy false inventions of others he wouldn't have done that to any psychologist or policeman or
56:31investigator he trusted him these are various of brady's letters to alan it's very distinctive
56:40handwriting once you once you see it you don't forget it so i think that was when alan started
56:46to keep the records and write the book which was only to be published after brady's death
56:57was there any other conversation in those joan well i don't know okay so we need to listen to them
57:03oh you'd need to listen to them yeah okay well if you were happy for us take his way we'll
57:07we'll take his way and listen to them and we'll see what what's on there
57:24the only thing i'm allowed now is a electronic typewriter oh yeah remember the one i sold to
57:29you yeah but i didn't keep that fucking thing yeah pathetic and i certainly don't want those personal
57:36files to get into the wrong fucking hands
57:38you get no bullshit with brady if you're a policeman if you're a journalist you had no hope at all
57:55the only way you can get him to talk about the real shit was to be part of his intimate compartment
58:03first of all i've got uh you know the uh ms the ms yeah so that's manuscript oh fuck me
58:19this is the first time where we've got an indication there might actually be something written down
58:23that describes where and how keith was killed the stuff in his hand his words
58:29that's actually written by ian brady is the evidence there
58:46and we'll see you next time
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