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00:00rant on social media, so much that he wrote more than 100 posts that included many of his
00:05greatest hits, attacking his so-called enemies, lying about election results, and trying to say
00:09anything to take away from his Epstein problem. Donald Trump capped off his rant the next day,
00:15raging on social media that DOJ should say no more of the Epstein files and concentrate on
00:22other things like his 2020 election fantasia. But the Epstein files will never be no more,
00:28and even some of Donald Trump's closest allies know that it'll never be no more. In an interview
00:33in the New York Times Magazine, Congresswoman Marjorie Taylor Greene, who's been one of Donald
00:38Trump's most loyal of supporters in Congress, said that the Epstein files are what caused her to break
00:43from Donald Trump. Robert Draper, writing for the New York Times Magazine, reports, quote,
00:48most significant, she defied the president and compliant House Republican leaders
00:52as she argued that all investigative material pertaining to Jeffrey Epstein should be released.
00:58The Epstein files represents everything wrong with the administration, Greene told me in December.
01:03Rich, powerful elites doing horrible things and getting away with it, and the women are the
01:08victims, end quote. Congresswoman Greene is resigning from her seat next Monday, January 5th.
01:13She believes Donald Trump turned on her after she became an advocate for the release of the Epstein
01:18files, along with our next guest, Congressman Ro Khanna. The White House gave this response to
01:23the New York Times Magazine over Congresswoman Greene's interview, quote, Congresswoman Greene is
01:28quitting on her constituents in the middle of her term and abandoning the consequential fight we're in.
01:34We don't have time for her petty bitterness, end quote. Greene told the New York Times Magazine that
01:39she spoke to some Epstein survivors at a closed-door oversight committee hearing,
01:43and that's when everything changed for her. Quote, after the hearing, Greene held a news
01:49conference at which she threatened to identify some of the men who had abused the women.
01:53Greene says she didn't know those names herself, but that she could have gotten them from the
01:57victims. Trump called Greene to voice her displeasure. Greene, Trump called Greene to voice
02:03his displeasure. Greene was in her Capitol Hill office, and according to a staff member, everyone in
02:08the suite of rooms could hear him yelling at her as she listened to him on speakerphone.
02:12Greene says she expressed her perplexity over his intransigence. According to Greene,
02:18Trump replied, my friends will get hurt. My friends will get hurt. That was allegedly Donald
02:26Trump's main concern, according to Greene, for why the files should not be released. Not a concern
02:30for the victims, but rather Donald Trump's concern for his friends. Greene revealed this about her
02:36last phone call with Donald Trump. Quote, when she urged Trump to invite some of Epstein's female
02:40victims to the Oval Office, she says, he angrily informed her that they had done nothing to merit
02:45the honor. It would be the last conversation Greene and Trump would ever have. Nothing to merit the
02:52honor. Congresswoman Greene continued to fight for justice for the Epstein survivors and did not cave
02:57to Donald Trump's pressure. She gave the New York Times this account of Trump's attempt to sway
03:02other Republican women. Quote, Greene's sudden isolation became evident on the afternoon of November 18,
03:07when the Epstein Files Transparency Act finally made it to the House floor after Trump abandoned
03:13the fight in the face of pressure brought by Greene, Massey and two more Republicans, Nancy Mace and
03:19Lauren Boebert. They brought Lauren Boebert into the situation room. That was so weird, Greene recalled,
03:24of the White House attempts to persuade the holdouts to cave and cast their votes against bringing the
03:29bill to the floor. And they were calling Nancy Mace nonstop. She's running for governor. She has an
03:34endorsement on the line. I gave both of them a lot of credit. That Massey was the only male
03:39Republican to side with Epstein's victims on the vote was notable, Greene added. There's a significant
03:45reason why women overwhelmingly don't vote Republican, she said. I think there's a very big
03:50message here. New reporting in the Wall Street Journal in the last hour reveals new details about
03:55Jeffrey Epstein during the late 1990s and early 2000 when he frequently visited Mar-a-Lago. The journal
04:01reports that employees at the Mar-a-Lago club warned each other that Epstein sometimes exposed himself
04:07during in-home spa appointments. The journal also reports that Donald Trump's ex-wife, Marla
04:12Maples, voiced her concerns about Epstein's behavior. Quote, some of the former club employees said that
04:17Maples communicated her concerns to Timothy McDaniel, who worked as a bodyguard for the Trump family and
04:23oversaw security at their Florida properties. McDaniel didn't respond to requests for comments.
04:28Maples told Trump that she was uneasy about Epstein's presence and that she didn't want to
04:33spend time with him and didn't want Trump to either, according to former employees and people
04:38close to Maples. But Epstein continued to attend parties and events at Mar-a-Lago. Representatives
04:43from Marla Maples didn't respond to the journal's request for comment. The White House told the journal
04:48that Donald Trump, quote, did nothing wrong. Donald Trump has tried to distract from the Epstein files
04:53and is attempting to use the Justice Department to make it no more. But he's facing challenges at
04:59every turn. In just four days, the Trump Justice Department faces a new deadline. On Christmas
05:05Eve, the DOJ announced that they had millions more Epstein-related documents in their possession.
05:09Now the DOJ must answer to the House and Senate Judiciary Committees as to why they're still hiding
05:15documents from the public. The bipartisan Epstein files Transparency Act also says the DOJ must give
05:22Congress a summary of all redactions. The DOJ is, of course, trying to push back against the law,
05:27which demanded all documents be released by December the 19th. But members of Congress
05:32won't stop pushing for the full story on the Epstein files. Today, Democrats on the Senate
05:37Judiciary Committee sent a letter to Donald Trump's chief of staff, Susie Wiles, inquiring as to how she
05:42had read the Epstein files and confirmed that Donald Trump's name appears in them. And our next guest,
05:50Congressman Ro Khanna has confirmed that he will be filing inherent contempt proceedings against Pam
05:56Bondi once Congress returns to session and will seek a special magistrate appointment from SDNY
06:02to review the DOJ's redactions in the Epstein files. Leading off our discussion tonight is the
06:08Democratic Congressman Ro Khanna of California. He's a member of the Oversight Committee. Congressman,
06:12great to see you. Thank you for being with us tonight.
06:14Thank you, Ali. Congressman, a number of people have been sort of posting and asking
06:20what happens to members of the administration who seem to be working against the bill that requires
06:28them to release these files. You have one answer to that, and that is this filing of
06:33inherent contempt proceedings. Tell me about that.
06:36Well, the inherent contempt that Massey and I will be filing would make Pam Bondi personally liable for
06:44$5,000 to $10,000 a day for every day that she does not release the files and comply. And it just requires
06:52a simple majority in the House. But the bigger point, Ali, is that when Massey and I, when we passed the bill,
06:58427 to 1 in the House, 100 to 0 in the Senate, the president signed it. You can't just ignore the law.
07:04It's obstruction of justice. It can be criminally prosecuted, if not by this administration,
07:10then a future administration. So there is a lot of outrage, not just with survivors, but with
07:16Republicans at what is happening with the selective Epstein disclosure. And when we get back, we're
07:22going to push for full transparency. What do you think motivates them? 427 to 1 in the House,
07:30100 to nothing in the Senate. Remarkable frustration. I mean, we're using Marjorie
07:35Taylor Greene as an example, but she's just one example. There are lots and lots and lots of
07:39Republicans, as you predicted there would be, who are saying to themselves, I can't hold off against
07:44this tidal wave with my constituents. What's going on here?
07:48Well, they're protecting the Epstein class. I mean, the president says it out loud. He says this is
07:55going to hurt a lot of people. This is going to hurt a lot of people who he knew, prominent bankers,
08:00prominent lawyers, prominent politicians, many of them in New York. And while the survivors haven't
08:07given me specific names, they've described the type of people in these files. Then people come on and
08:12say, well, are Kana and Massey exaggerating? There's one way to find out. Just release the
08:17files. Release them. But that's what's going on here, is they want to protect the reputation of
08:22these rich and powerful men who showed up in Epstein's rape island and not have them take
08:27accountability. Some remarkable reporting from the Wall Street Journal tonight, in which it says the
08:34club, meaning Mar-a-Lago, was also sending spa employees, usually young women, to Epstein's nearby
08:39mansion for massages, manicures and other spa services, according to former Mar-a-Lago and
08:44Epstein employees. The House calls went on for years, even as spa employees warned each other
08:49about Epstein, who was known among staff for being sexually suggestive and exposing himself during the
08:54appointments, according to the former Mar-a-Lago employees. So this continues to be, I mean,
09:00obviously in these releases of files, we see photographs of Mar-a-Lago. This continues to be an
09:05issue, the ties between Donald Trump and Jeffrey Epstein. I haven't seen anything that suggests
09:11culpability on Donald Trump's part, but there's a whole lot of pushback and secrecy going on.
09:17There is, and I haven't seen anything that suggests any culpability, but there's obviously
09:23evidence that there was a tie between Mar-a-Lago, a place that Trump reveres as his home, as his
09:30headquarters, and Epstein. And those documents need to come out. I mean, the Wall Street Journal
09:35reporting is just scratching the surface. All of this stuff is in the Florida criminal case. There
09:42was discovery. There are documents. All of it needs to come out. First, Pambani says it's all out. There's
09:49nothing more to see. Then there's Christmas Eve, a release saying, well, we've got a million more
09:53documents in New York. Well, there are millions of documents in this file. Cash Patella said that,
09:58and it all needs to come out in the new year. By the way, I was mentioning the photographs. Those
10:03are of Jeffrey Epstein's island and his estate, not of Mar-a-Lago. Let's talk about this million
10:10pages that the Department of Justice says it still has. Have you heard anything that resembles an
10:17argument as to justify the delay of these files that were all supposed to be released by December
10:2219th? Because as you said, Pambani bragged that she had the files. She said they were on her desk.
10:27She said this in a public interview. So they've known for many, many months that this reckoning
10:33would come. What's the basis for continuing to delay? Some of it is incompetence. I think they
10:39didn't know where all these files were. I mean, with the whole investigation, they never thought to
10:44get the documents from the Epstein estate. It was me coming on this program and talking to Bradley
10:49Edwards that we had actually sent a letter to the Epstein estate. So some of it is incompetence.
10:53Some of it is they claim they're protecting the identities and the survivors.
11:00The reason that's not believable is they're not releasing what the survivors want, which
11:04is their statements to the FBI where they named these other men. So my concern is less the
11:09timeline. And if they came back and said, you know, Ro, we're releasing documents. It's
11:14taking us a little longer. But if they were actually giving us the witness statements, if
11:18they were actually being transparent, I'd have less of a problem. The problem is they're hiding
11:23things. And every time there's pushback, they suddenly find new documents. And they have the
11:29same strategy. They've had the same strategy since July. Let's just get this over with. Say we're done
11:34and everyone will forget. And then they find out that when they do that, there's more outrage
11:38and the scandal just grows. And, you know, if I had any free advice for them, I'd say just get it
11:43all out there in January and let the truth come out. Congressman, good to see you as always. Thank
11:48you for being with us, Congressman Ro Khanna of California. All right, coming up, the conservative
11:52Supreme Court ruling against him might have been one of the reasons that Donald Trump spent Christmas
11:56raging on the Internet. You may have missed it over the holiday, but the chief justice, John Roberts,
12:01and Trump appointed justices Amy Coney Barrett and Brett Kavanaugh joined with the liberal
12:06justices to smack down one of Donald Trump's signature power grabs. I'll talk about that on the other
12:12side of the break. Tonight, more than 300 National Guard troops are in New Orleans in what Donald
12:20Trump claims is a security measure ahead of New Year's Eve. The move comes one year after a deadly
12:25terror attack on Bourbon Street that killed 14 people. And it's part of a broader push from the
12:31Trump administration to put U.S. military patrols on the streets of American cities amid his crackdown
12:36on mass deportations of undocumented immigrants. Donald Trump has been met with resistance from
12:42Democratic leaders in California and Texas and Illinois, and now from the conservative Supreme
12:47Court. Last week, in a 6-3 preliminary order, the Supreme Court rejected Trump's attempts to deploy
12:53troops to the Chicago area, siding with Democrats who argued that Trump was overstepping his authority.
12:59Quote, at this preliminary stage, the government has failed to identify a source of authority that would
13:04allow the military to execute the laws in Illinois. The president has not invoked a statute that provides
13:10an exception to the Posse Comitatus Act. That's the Supreme Court saying quite plainly, you don't get to
13:16do this just because you want to. Politico reports, quote, three conservative justices, Clarence Thomas,
13:22Samuel Alito, and Neil Gorsuch dissented, while another conservative, Brett Kavanaugh, voted to deny
13:28Trump's request, but declined to join the majority's explanation of the ruling. Kavanaugh indicated he
13:34had had enough doubts about the administration's legal arguments that he agreed with denying the
13:39emergency stay at the federal government sought. In a concurring opinion, Justice Kavanaugh wrote,
13:44to federalize the National Guard, the president must first determine that he is unable with the
13:50regular forces to execute the laws of the United States. In my view, the statutory term regular forces
13:56likely refers to the U.S. military, not to federal civilian law enforcement officers, end quote.
14:03So when the Trump administration argues that National Guard troops are needed to protect federal
14:08personnel and property from violent resistance against ICE agents, the Supreme Court is signaling
14:14that that that argument may not survive serious scrutiny. So far, more than 4,500 people have been
14:20arrested by federal immigration agents in the Chicago area as part of Trump's immigration raids this
14:25year. In response to this, the Illinois governor, J.B. Pritzker, has enacted a new state law
14:30allowing residents to sue federal immigration agents if they believe their civil rights have been
14:35violated. The Trump Justice Department has filed a lawsuit to nullify that state law.
14:41Chicago Mayor Brandon Johnson, who will join us in a moment, said this about his fight to defend
14:45Chicago residents. Every single lawsuit that we put up against the Trump administration, we prevailed.
14:55And everything that they brought against us, we were also to beat back. I said from the very beginning
15:00I was going to use every single tool available to me to protect all of Chicago, whether that's executive
15:05orders, which we've done, legislation, which we've done, including taking it to the court. And so we've
15:11said from the very beginning that this president was working outside the bounds of his executive
15:15authority. He has trampled on this Constitution, working with our law department, including the state of
15:21Illinois, is proof positive that when we stand firm on our values, the people who are united around those
15:27values will always prevail.
15:32Joining us now is the mayor of Chicago, Brandon Johnson. Mayor, thank you for joining us.
15:36You're welcome. Thanks for having me and Happy New Year.
15:40Thank you. What's the practical effect of this decision by the Supreme Court?
15:44Are we seeing the effects of it in the streets of Chicago yet?
15:49Well, we certainly are. As I've said repeatedly, that this president has
15:53certainly worked outside of the confines of the Constitution. And I've maintained that position.
15:59And, you know, thankfully, the Supreme Court sees it our way.
16:04And what we've said from the very beginning, if this president was actually sincere about addressing
16:10violence in the city of Chicago and cities across America, he would work with mayors like myself
16:15to do the things that actually work. And so, again, we've always maintained that this president
16:20was working outside of the confines of the Constitution. And we are certainly grateful that
16:25the Supreme Court sees it our way as well. So this is not just a benefit for the people of Chicago,
16:30but it's really a win for for for cities across America. In very practical terms, what what what
16:37difference does it make? What has happened as a result of this decision? Has the has the Trump
16:41administration acknowledged or done anything about it? Well, they have not acknowledged that this is,
16:48you know, a real check and balance to the Trump administration. But what has happened practically is
16:53that we don't have to sit under the threat of of our city and cities across America being occupied by
17:00federal troops. And quite frankly, they don't have policing power or policing authority. So what they
17:06would actually do was never even satisfied or determined. We saw what happened in Washington, D.C.,
17:11where they you know, the you know, the National Guard participated in streets and sanitation.
17:19They help people with their groceries. If that's what the president is committed to doing, then he
17:24should restore funding that goes towards the SNAP benefits, restoring health care. Right. So in a very
17:30practical way, we don't have to deal with the ongoing threat of cities being occupied and that we can
17:35actually ensure that our Constitution is not being eroded by an authoritarian, quite frankly, that has
17:43demonstrated that he's more committed to instituting terror than he is providing comfort for working
17:48people across this country. So, in fact, you use the D.C. example. We've got New Orleans. Obviously,
17:54one would argue that given that they don't have any policing powers, that the deployments of the
17:58National Guard are meant largely to either intimidate or prepare Americans for other instances
18:05in which the president is federalizing troops. And again, I think the distinction is unclear for
18:09some people because ICE seems to be doing Donald Trump's bidding and he's trying to create a
18:13situation in which the National Guard can also do Donald Trump's bidding.
18:19Look, I think your analysis is spot on. I mean, we saw the largest upward transfer of wealth
18:24into the hands of the ultra rich with his big, nasty, ugly bill. At the same time, he created funding for
18:32ICE that essentially has behaved as the Trump administration's personal privatized police force.
18:40In fact, the only other entities that are funded higher than ICE are the United States military and
18:47China's military. We know that this president has failed in every single aspect to provide real
18:54opportunities and hope for working people. You know, whether it's, you know, groceries, whether it's
18:59healthcare, whether it's jobs, this president has been a failure. And so what this certainly signals
19:05is that, you know, that there is at least another branch of government that recognizes that the
19:12overreach by the president is a real threat to our democracy, but it's also a threat to our humanity.
19:19So, you know, it's why we've been very clear that we're going to use every single tool available to us,
19:24whether it's, you know, litigation or legislation or executive orders to protect the interests of
19:30working people. And that's what we've done in Chicago. And that's what, of course, that we
19:34need to see happen across this country. Mayor, good to talk to you again. Thank you again for being with
19:38us. Thank you. Thank you. Chicago Mayor Brandon Johnson. All right. Joining me now is Barbara McQuaid,
19:44former United States attorney and law professor at the University of Michigan Law School. She's now an MSNOW
19:49legal analyst. Barbara, thank you for joining us. This is a I want to go back to the Supreme Court
19:54decision for a moment. This is important because a number of conservative justices pointed out that
20:00this is just not sound in the eyes of the law, the idea that Donald Trump was using the National
20:05Guard or wanted to use the National Guard in Chicago to carry out responsibilities that he did
20:10not demonstrate either the need for or the fact that the National Guard is statutorily allowed to to
20:17undertake. Yes. You know, they engage in some statutory interpretation. The key language here
20:24is that before the National Guard may come into a city, the president has to determine that he's
20:30unable to execute the law with, quote, regular forces. And the Trump administration has been
20:38interpreting that as meaning regular police forces. You know, the ordinary police officers on the street
20:44aren't getting the job done. Therefore, we need to supplement them with members of the National
20:49Guard. What the court said here is no, no, no, regular forces. That means regular military forces.
20:55That really ups the ante here. It says that, you know, we're just not even on the same. It's not
21:00the same page. We're not the same chapter. We're not the same book here, because before you can ever
21:05call up the military to execute the laws, that means you have to find some legal exception to the
21:11Posse Comitatus Act, the law that prohibits the military from executing the laws and engaging in
21:17law enforcement activities that requires an invocation of the Insurrection Act, which is a much higher
21:23standard. The president has to find that there is some rebellion against the authority of the United
21:27States before he can invoke that power. This is an important distinction. The concept of Posse Comitatus,
21:35it exists in many democracies around the world. The idea that the military is for protection of
21:41the country and for use against forces, generally speaking, out there, unless they invade your border
21:47or something, come across your border, and that policing is a civilian activity, that police answer
21:52to civilian authorities, not military authorities. I think a lot of people don't lose sleep over this,
21:59but it's an important distinction. Yes, and the founders were very concerned with this issue,
22:05and that's because during the colonial period, British soldiers would show up in their homes.
22:10It's why the Third Amendment says that people can't be required to quarter soldiers in their homes.
22:16They'd show up, they'd want a place to stay. They were engaging in policing on the streets and harassment
22:21on the streets. And so this idea, this distinction between police, which serves domestic purposes,
22:28and the military, which fights foreign enemies, was to be drawn very distinctly. The exception for this
22:36is very, very limited, and it is when the president has made this very high-level declaration of a rebellion
22:44or some other combinations that are threatening the security of the United States.
22:52Barbara, as always, thank you. We're clear after we hear from you on these things. Barbara McQuaid,
22:56we appreciate your time. Thanks, Ellie. All right, coming up, jobs are down, stocks are up,
23:02and the vibes are off. Even economists can't seem to figure out what's coming in the American economy,
23:06and that's not counting what could be the nail in the coffin of Trump's tariff chaos. That's next.
23:15The biggest economic jump ball in 2026 could be the coming Supreme Court decision on Donald
23:20Trump's tariffs. That decision could have a major effect on prices. If Trump's tariffs remain,
23:26some businesses that have been holding back on passing the import taxes onto consumers could relent
23:31and raise prices. Or if the tariffs are scrapped, it could spark a surge of business and consumer
23:37confidence. But one thing is for sure, as we head into 2026, the fate of the Trump tariffs
23:42are just one cloud of uncertainty hanging over the American economy. The Dow Jones crossed 48,000 for
23:50the first time ever recently, largely powered, by the way, by tech and AI bullishness. But the
23:56unemployment rate is the highest it's been in four years, with black unemployment now over eight
24:02percent. That's as high as it was at the height of COVID. The all-important holiday shopping season
24:08was a mixed bag, by the way. The Associated Press reports, quote, that from November 1st through
24:13Sunday, December 21st, cash and credit card sales rose 4.2 percent, which is less than the 4.8
24:20percent increase during the same period a year ago, according to Visa's consulting and analytics
24:25division. When adjusted for inflation, retail sales rose a more modest 2.2 percent for the first
24:33seven weeks of the holiday period, according to Visa's U.S. principal economist, Michael Brown.
24:38That compares with the inflation adjusted three percent in the same year-ago time frame.
24:43It's certainly not a spectacular season, Brown told the Associated Press. It's sort of an average
24:48holiday season, given concerns about macroeconomic growth and inflation. There's still a lot of uncertainty
24:54among the consumer population. Even economists at the Federal Reserve can't seem to agree about what's
24:59really going on in the economy. The New York Times reports today officials at the Central Bank have
25:04splintered over whether whether rising unemployment or elevated inflation poses the bigger economic risk.
25:12Ezra Klein focused on financial on this during his final 2025 podcast. The economic data, he says,
25:19has also become completely divorced from how people actually perceive the economy. If you look at
25:24consumer sentiment, people feel like the economy is as bad as it was in the depths of the previous
25:28recessions. And yet, the economic data, the job market, wages, inflation, all kind of look okay.
25:36It is the strangest year in the economy that I have ever covered." End quote. But the best expression
25:42of the economic uncertainty undoubtedly comes not just from economic reporters or from Fed board members,
25:47but from regular people. Like this mailbag question economist Jared Bernstein received
25:52and posted on his sub stack. America's economic vibes are awful. Hiring is way down. Prices are high
25:59and sticky. And the guy in the White House is certifiable. Yet GDP is banging. Please explain.
26:06Well, here to explain is Jared Bernstein. He's the former chair of the White House Council of Economic
26:10Advisors in the Biden administration and a policy fellow at the Stanford Institute for Economic Policy
26:15Research. Jared, thank you for being with us. That was such a great question that you got in the mailbag
26:20because it's such a great opportunity now for us to explain that while GDP is the the largest measure
26:26we have of all economic activity in our economy, it doesn't tell you who's winning and it doesn't tell
26:33you who's losing. It just tells you this is happening. Absolutely. It's a three, it's a 30 trillion
26:40dollar aggregate, which explains how folks at the bottom, middle and the top are are doing only in
26:48the sense that it reaches them. And if we have GDP growth, that is largely just helping to elevate
26:56the yachts and leaving the rowboats behind. Well, we're going to have a situation where the economy
27:02looks good by some of these aggregate numbers and yet feels pretty bad to a lot of people.
27:0890 percent of stock market wealth is held by the top 10 percent. The bottom 50 percent almost owns
27:15almost nothing in terms of the stock market. So, again, we have to look not simply at the
27:21aggregate indicators if we want to understand that gap, but how different groups are faring.
27:26So let's let's talk about this, because 20, 25 years ago, if you saw the stock market performing the
27:32way it is now, you would assume whether you called it trickle down or the fact that people benefit from
27:37it, you would assume that that meant wealth was being spread around. As you point out,
27:41a little more than 50 percent of people hold stock. But you you you just gave me that statistic.
27:4790 percent of stock market wealth goes to the wealthiest. The stock market is just not a great
27:52barometer of of broad based wealth creation. Yeah, you're right that if you look at the share of
28:00people who own even a share of stock, sure, you can get above 50 percent pretty quickly. But if you look
28:06at the value and now we're talking about, for example, tech shares, we know that the valuation of
28:13the mag seven, these big tech companies, is over 20 trillion dollars. That's over two thirds of GDP,
28:19if you want to just give it some context. But the folks who are making off the most from those equity
28:28shares are the wealthiest. And the way that works in terms of the kinds of indicators we've been
28:34talking about, if you actually go around and see how big businesses are doing relative to small
28:38businesses. Well, small businesses have been shedding jobs now for a while. Big businesses continue to plow ahead.
28:45If you ask folks who are tracking these consumer spending numbers that you just said a minute ago,
28:52retail trade. So you'll find that in zip codes that are pretty wealthy, these stores are holding
28:57up pretty, pretty, pretty fine. But then if you look at some of the poor zip codes, you'll see a
29:01different result. So I do think that whether we're talking about consumer sales, affordability,
29:07health care, which is about to get a lot more expensive for a lot of people, you start to see this divide.
29:11Jared, you're talking about the MAG-7, the Magnificent Seven stocks. These are mainly AI,
29:18they're tech stocks, mainly AI driven tech stocks, whether it's chips or companies that employ AI in
29:24their work. So if you take those out of the S&P 500 and you call it the S&P 493, the performance has
29:30been a lot less fancy. These are the MAG-7 stocks. Why does that matter? Because people who own stocks,
29:38generally speaking, will own an index like the S&P 500. So they're also gaining from the benefit
29:43in these companies. Why is it dangerous that seven companies are so outperforming the entire rest of
29:49the stock market? I'm glad you asked me that, because it really feeds into everything we're
29:53talking about. I don't think it's particularly dangerous from the perspective of individual
29:58portfolios. I think it's dangerous from the perspective of the overall economy. One of the
30:03things that's been driving growth is called the wealth effect. And this is the idea that for every
30:09dollar of stock market wealth, something like two to three cents extra gets spent in the economy.
30:15Now, I did some calculations for the piece you showed me a minute ago, the piece I wrote the
30:20other day. The valuation of the S&P 500 is up almost 10 trillion. So if you take a couple percent of that,
30:27that's, you know, north of 200 billion. So that explains a little, almost a quarter of the increase
30:34in consumer spending. So that kind of concentration and the wealth effect that's helping to drive
30:41consumer spending forward, it's more fragile than I'd like it to be. Because if those firms start to
30:46stumble, that wealth effect could shift in reverse. Yeah, it's worth paying attention to for all of us to
30:53see how big a role, whether or not you like AI, or you're fearful AI, or you're hopeful for it.
30:58It is a massive piece of our economy right now, for better or for worse. And we need to pay
31:02attention to it. Jared, thanks, as always. We appreciate it. The economist, Jared Bernstein.
31:06All right, coming up, Donald Trump lied repeatedly about hurricane relief in North Carolina in 2024.
31:11But this time, the buck does stop with him. The former North Carolina governor, Roy Cooper,
31:16now the Democratic candidate for Senate, joins me next.
31:18On his way from D.C. to Florida for Christmas, Donald Trump stopped in North Carolina to kick
31:26the tires on his 2026 midterm messaging in that state. The message was, blame the Democrats,
31:32even though Trump is president and Republicans control the House and the Senate.
31:37And after your horrible hurricane, which produced more water damage than any hurricane in history,
31:43the Democrats let you down. They really did. Remember, they wouldn't do anything.
31:47Remember, they wouldn't go to your community. They wouldn't do anything. You had to wait till
31:53January 20th when I took office. You'd still be sitting in the mud. If I didn't get elected,
31:58you would be. People were sitting in the mud.
32:02Lying about hurricane response in North Carolina is familiar territory for Donald Trump,
32:06who did it repeatedly in the final weeks of the presidential campaign.
32:09Vox reported back in October of 2024, since Hurricane Helene decimated parts of western North
32:15Carolina last week. Former President Donald Trump has seized on the tragedy to perpetuate lies about
32:20the federal response. So in chaos and confusion, as officials scramble to help those affected in
32:26recent days, Trump has repeatedly and falsely suggested that the federal government is purposely
32:31neglecting areas with Republican voters, that it is funneling emergency aid to migrants instead of
32:37a disaster response, and that it's giving hurricane victims just $750 in support. None of these claims
32:43are true. After those lies, Trump went on to win North Carolina by three points. Now, a New Washington
32:50Post report is detailing how Donald Trump is not quite the savior he claims to be. In November 2024,
32:56Elizabeth Clark was among the first storm victims in her county to apply for a voluntary program funded by
33:02the federal emergency management agency that would enable the government to buy out her property.
33:07More than 800 storm victims around Helene battered western North Carolina have applied under FEMA's
33:13hazard mitigation grant program. State officials vetted applications and began sending them up the
33:18chain to FEMA as far back as February. As of December 15th, they had sent nearly 600 buyout requests
33:24to Washington, with more likely to follow. So far, they say, not a single approval has come through.
33:32In a response to the Post, FEMA said, quote, it had provided $16.3 million in hazard mitigation,
33:38but when it came to the hundreds of pending applications from homeowners hoping for buyouts,
33:42the agency said they had not met federal requirements. The agency did not elaborate
33:47on why, end quote. It is, of course, Donald Trump and his chainsaw pal Elon Musk who wreaked havoc on FEMA
33:53staffing and financing. But in Rocky Mount on December 19th, Donald Trump told voters it was all going
34:00great. And of course, he did it all. I did it all with your congressman and with a couple of
34:09Republicans from your state that put their lives on the line to make sure this got done.
34:15Joining me now is the former governor, Roy Cooper. He's a candidate for the U.S. Senate
34:19in North Carolina. Governor, thank you for being with us. I appreciate it.
34:22I'm a little surprised, as they say in the South, that this dog actually hunts. North
34:28Carolinians, I think, have a pretty clear view of what happened after that hurricane
34:32and what Donald Trump was saying about it and the fact that those two things are not the same.
34:37You're right. That dog doesn't hunt, Ali. In fact, this was a big blow to Western North Carolina,
34:44the largest natural disaster ever. And that misinformation and those lies that had been
34:50stirred up, demoralized people who were working so hard, state and local government and volunteers
34:57were putting in the time. It also discouraged people from applying for help. Then Donald Trump
35:05gets elected as president and comes in to North Carolina and says that we're going to slash through
35:11every bureaucratic barrier to make sure we rebuild Western North Carolina better than it ever was.
35:19And what does he do? He appoints the consummate Washington, D.C. insider, my opponent,
35:26Michael Watley, in the Senate race to be the Western North Carolina recovery czar. It's been a failure
35:33at every turn. In fact, local governments are waiting to be reimbursed, all of them operating on
35:41tight budgets. You just heard about the 800 applications that are waiting for approval. It's hard to
35:49handle these buyouts at the state and local level, and they have to do most of the work. All the federal
35:54government has to do is approve it and send a check. They can't even do that. It's gotten so bad that there
36:02have been bipartisan calls in signing a petition to ask Michael Watley to resign from his position. Look, we need
36:12people in the United States Senate who need to work on cutting red tape for real. Michael Watley is on a
36:21council appointed by the president to reform FEMA. They haven't even come up with a report, much less
36:29have they done anything. And people in Western North Carolina are still hurting. They're doing an amazing
36:36job on their own. But only 11 percent of the recovery has been funded by the federal government.
36:43And storms like Katrina and Sandy had 70 percent of right from the federal government. It's time for
36:50the federal government to step up and help Western North Carolina. And if you want a senator who's going
36:55to work on that, you can go to Roy Cooper dot com and learn about what we're going to do and help us
37:00out. I remember in your years as governor, you and I talked several times right after hurricanes or
37:05during natural disasters, as I did with many of your fellow governors in the South. And it was
37:10kind of interesting to me that that was the moment in which partisan nonsense was generally suspended
37:16for a couple of reasons. One is these are human tragedies. And two, you have to work with everybody
37:20in your state. When something like that happens, you can dig into why things went wrong. But
37:26fundamentally, it is not a partisan activity. Donald Trump was was making this a partisan problem
37:31as it happened. No question. And in fact, this hurricane occurred at the end of September.
37:39Obviously, the November elections were right around the corner. And I think the president took
37:43advantage of that to lay into the previous administration. And really, he was criticizing
37:50everybody who was involved in this and promised that he would do better. Fact of the matter is,
37:56they have not done better. And in fact, things are much worse. Washington is broken. We need
38:03problem solvers to be elected to go to the United States Senate to put the checks and balances
38:08back into the Constitution to make sure this executive is doing its job right. And those of us
38:16who have served as governor who've been through these natural disasters know how complicated it can be.
38:21The last thing you need is an unresponsive federal government. And that's what we have right now.
38:29You and I talked on the night of December 19th when Donald Trump had his rally in Rocky Mount. I didn't
38:34know at the time that he said this about you, but he did. He said your previous governor, referring to
38:39you, was a disaster. He was a radical left person, by the way. He's radical left. You don't want him.
38:45He doesn't represent you. I've known you for a lot of years. I don't recall anybody calling you
38:48radical left. No, that's the first. I think he has coined that phrase. What I'm going to be is the
38:55kind of senator who's going to be a strong, independent senator who's going to work with
38:59this president whenever I can. I'm going to stand up to him when I need to. My opponent will be the
39:06president's yes man. My opponent is the anointed pick of Donald Trump. And he knows that Michael
39:13Wiley will do whatever he tells him to do. I don't think the people of North Carolina want
39:18that. They know me serving as the chief law enforcement officer of our state as attorney
39:22general and as governor. And I'm going to work on bringing their costs down, protecting the
39:28health care that we've gotten in North Carolina. We were able to get a bipartisan agreement in
39:33our state to get 700,000 more people health insurance. Now, all of that is in danger because
39:39of the big, beautiful bill that they just passed. It's another reason why I knew I needed to step up
39:45and run for this U.S. Senate seat to fix those problems and protect the success that we've made
39:50in North Carolina. So until 2025, when I wanted to describe to people how perverse some of this
39:57partisan gerrymandering would be, I would use North Carolina as an example, because we pointed out
40:02Donald Trump won by three points. Republicans often win at that level. But you were governor and you
40:08were the attorney general. The current governor was also the attorney general. And in all of those
40:12instances, you won statewide elections in which both your legislatures, your legislatures are
40:19overwhelmingly, in fact, veto proof Republican. So there's sort of proof of how, why gerrymandering
40:26is a problem. Extreme partisan gerrymandering hurts our democracy. It hurts public policy.
40:33For the brief period of time that we had fair congressional maps in North Carolina, court-ordered
40:39fair maps, we sent seven Democrats and seven Republicans to Washington. Now that that opinion
40:46has been struck back down, the Republicans have taken over, it is likely to be 11 Republicans and three
40:54Democrats. That's not North Carolina. We are a purple state. When you have these gerrymandered districts,
41:02you have representatives who spend more time catering to the extremes of their party rather than trying to
41:09work together to solve problems. We need a constitutional amendment to outlaw extreme
41:14partisan gerrymandering. I wish we'd won this, the Supreme Court case that was up there at the time that
41:20was a close loss. But I think that would be one of the best things we could do to protect our democracy.
41:26Governor, good to see you as always. Thank you for being with us. The North Carolina Democratic Senate candidate
41:30and the former governor of North Carolina, Roy Cooper. All right, we'll be right back.
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