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00:00I'll tell you a little story. I don't know whether you'll want to include this, but I'll tell you a
00:08little story. So only three weeks ago, I was in the pub and somebody who hasn't lived in the
00:15village that long was leaving and somebody said to him, oh, are you going? He says, oh, I'm just
00:21going to take the wife home. I'm just going to walk her home. She wants to go kind of thing. He
00:25says, you've got to be careful, you know, you can get murdered in this village. And they kept
00:30joking about it, these two people. And I just looked around and I went, enough. And he went, what, what?
00:38I'm only saying the facts. And I went, enough. And he apologised. He said, I'm so sorry. He said she was
00:49one of my best friends, you know. It didn't leave our lives. It was all consuming. That
00:58was all anybody was talking about. It's such a central part to the village, isn't it? Wherever
01:05you come from, that's where you end up, you know. There was, as I find here, a substantial degree
01:18of premeditation. Having armed himself with the bar, the defendant must have waited until Diana
01:25Garbutt was asleep. And in the early hours of the morning, crept silently into her bedroom.
01:31He struck her head three savage blows with the bar, smashing her skull and causing her
01:39immediate death, as he plainly intended. He told the same ludicrous story from beginning
01:47to end. By their verdict, the jury have exposed this to be pure humbug. This was a brutal, planned,
01:58cold-blooded murder of his wife. She lay fast asleep in her own bed.
02:03It was just, how? How have you come to this decision? What have you based this decision
02:12on? Because it isn't evidence. I order that the defendant serves a minimum term of 20 years,
02:20before he is considered for release by the parole board.
02:25The jury were told to be sure that he was guilty. And I wasn't sure.
02:32Guilty. Robin Garbutt is sent to prison for a minimum of 20 years for murdering his postmistress wife.
02:38He never stopped, did he? No. He was going to prove that there was somebody
02:44out there that had done this to die. Lawyers for a former sub-postmaster from North Yorkshire
02:49are seeking a fresh appeal after arguing that the inquiry into the post office IT scandal
02:53shed new light on his case.
02:55In my opinion, there's another side to this story. I looked at the statements from the
03:01post's officials and immediately I said, well, hang on a minute, the jury haven't been given
03:06all the facts here.
03:09This case may be the most egregious miscarriage of justice stemming from the post office scandal.
03:25From my memory, murder came in the afternoon. By the time we left the court, probably later
03:53later than it normally would have been. I was exhausted.
03:59And then I started heading for home and never felt so far away from home.
04:07It just makes you realise that, you know, you're lucky that you can go home.
04:10It didn't feel as if there's closure now, which is what you'd hope for or you might expect.
04:28You do hear families talking about justice. What does justice taste like?
04:36I don't know.
04:40I want to know what happened. You know, I don't think we have heard what happened.
04:48We haven't heard the truth.
04:49Convicted.
04:56Feel lost.
04:5820 years.
05:00How could they have ignored my evidence?
05:03No DNA on murder weapon relating to me.
05:09Unknown DNA on pillow.
05:11Clump of light brown hair on pillow photographed.
05:15Then lost by police.
05:16No evidence connecting me with the murder.
05:23We would have conversations with Robin when we went into prison.
05:28And he would also write.
05:30So, you know, Robin could give us an idea of, you know, what he thought we could help with.
05:36He's an optimistic person.
05:38But I'm sure underneath, Robin felt led down by the system.
05:42Does it surprise me that he's still protesting his innocence?
05:48It doesn't really.
05:50The only thing he can do is make a judgment on what's known and what's in the public domain, really.
05:55If there's something completely extraordinary which hasn't emerged, which proves him to be innocent,
06:02then, you know, that, of course, would explain his stance.
06:06And it would be a most horrendous miscarriage of justice if that were the case.
06:10My PhD was on miscarriages of justice.
06:17And then I started to write specifically about prisoners maintaining innocence.
06:23And then I just was inundated with requests from people who were saying,
06:28you're writing about me, please can you help me?
06:30You know, how does the appeal system actually help the innocent who are caught up in this?
06:36Because our system actually doesn't care if you're innocent or guilty.
06:39It's about process.
06:40The work I do now, for 12 years, I set up the innocence projects in Britain,
06:45trying to overturn these wrongful convictions when they happen.
06:49But I heard about Robin's case through a friend of Robin's,
06:52and that's how I started to look into it.
06:54And as things stand, there is no credible forensic evidence that suggests that Robin murdered Diana.
07:03It's just circumstantial evidence.
07:06So, I haven't seen anything that says he did it, but I don't know.
07:11But I'd like to know.
07:12It's now more than two years since Diana Garbutt's body was found in the bedroom of the post office they ran together
07:23in Melsenby in North Yorkshire.
07:25He's always maintained his innocence, claiming his wife was murdered by a masked intruder.
07:30At trial, the prosecution didn't believe the robbery took place.
07:34They said that Robin was stealing money.
07:37It all blew up in the middle of the night.
07:39He killed her for it.
07:40It wasn't just that you found out she'd been sleeping with somebody or she'd been kissing someone.
07:45It was also to do with finances.
07:50I joined the post office in 1978, and then in 1988, my wife and I bought our own post office,
07:58and we ran that branch for 38 years.
08:01And all throughout that time, I played a role helping and representing some postmasters
08:08when they got into disputes with the post office.
08:11At trial, experts from the post office, working with the police and the prosecution,
08:17they said that he was stealing money, which undermined his version that we were robbed
08:23and that money was stolen.
08:25In 2011, the jury would have had complete faith and trust in the post office.
08:33It was a British institution.
08:36So when an official from that organisation turns up and gives evidence under oath,
08:41you listen, you know, and you tend not to disbelieve what you're being told.
08:45The prosecution in Robin Garbutt's trial claimed data from the Horizon system showed he was stealing
08:51from the couple's post office in Melsomby in North Yorkshire and killed Diana to cover it up.
08:57Everyone likes to know there's a motive that they can understand.
09:01And potential of a motive through the misuse of cash seems to have been quite impacting on the jury.
09:10At the end of the day, each branch entered into the Horizon system, a cash declaration.
09:17And that assisted then this algorithm to look back at the ins and the outs of customer transactions
09:23to see what cash you held in branch.
09:26If they thought you had too much cash on the premises, you'd get an automated request from Horizon
09:32telling you how much money it thinks you should send back.
09:37But a lot of postmasters simply ignored that because it was wrong.
09:42And it was quite common behaviour for a postmaster to do that.
09:48Robin knew how his post office ran.
09:50And he actually stated that if you get the graph of our previous year's overnight cash holdings
09:57and follow the graphs of rise and peaks and falls, it'll follow what I'm declaring in my post office.
10:05But the post office at trial said, oh, not available, that information.
10:11However, we found out after trial it was available.
10:13When they finally got the records, I looked at the statements from the postal's officials
10:19and I could see no evidence of any fraud taking place that would go into benefit Mr Garbert.
10:26It showed that actually this is consistent with the way that branch conducted the cash management.
10:32It wasn't until after trial, we'd looked into it more after trial and we'd got a previous seven years overnight cash holdings
10:43that proved the records were correct and that enabled us then to go forward to the appeal call.
10:49Today, Robin Garbert's legal team came back to court to claim fresh evidence could clear his name.
11:06Post office accounting records, which they argued, supported his side of the story.
11:11When it comes to an appeal, the court of appeal only receives cases if there's fresh evidence
11:19or there's an exceptional reason why the evidence that was available wasn't used.
11:25That evidence, judges said here today, should have been made available to Robin Garbert during his trial.
11:32But for jurors to acquit him, they said, they would have to believe that his wife was killed instantly,
11:37that she raised no alarm and that Garbert, who was downstairs at the time, heard nothing at all.
11:46That, they said, was highly improbable.
11:5324th of May. Not back day.
11:56We are stuck with circumstantial evidence.
12:00I feel so bad. I have let die down again.
12:04Those killers are still out there.
12:05There is always hope, but how strong I am will be the test.
12:11And time will tell.
12:14The reason the appeal failed is that regardless of what happened with Horizon,
12:20regardless of what his financial situation was,
12:22his version of events of a robber coming in and killing her, it just wasn't plausible.
12:27Not a single witness was found who corroborated this notion of a robber getting in and getting out without being seen.
12:33It just didn't add up.
12:35Tonight, North Yorkshire police has said it hopes today's decision will mean Diana Garbert's family can begin to rebuild their lives.
12:44Despite some in the village still supportive of the man convicted of her killing,
12:48Robin Garbert will tonight continue his 20-year jail sentence.
12:52In court, they said that nobody could have gotten in and out of the post office on that morning.
13:11What people didn't realise is that you can access through the back of the garages.
13:20It's a small little snicket down some steps.
13:23And if Robin was bringing in the stock, he would have had the back door wedged open and the door into the shop would have been open.
13:36So, if Robin's gone in through the shop and into the little stock room there,
13:45it's quite easy for somebody to come down them steps who's been waiting in the back of the garages.
13:51The staircase is immediately through that door and upstairs.
13:56Somebody could have got in there and gone upstairs.
14:01Easy access.
14:06So, they've got in unbeknown to him, got upstairs, murdered her, why?
14:10Why would you murder her?
14:11What's the kind of benefit from the robber's perspective there?
14:14Why is the robber doing it?
14:15Why would you murder the postmaster's wife before you get access to the safe?
14:19So, rather than being a robber, you're a murderer.
14:21Hey, listen, I'm not saying there's a logic to what robbers do, but I can't, I'm kind of struggling to see why you would do that in that context, really.
14:29It is, unfortunately, a common occurrence for robberies to take place through quite sophisticated means sometimes.
14:39I have heard of branches being broken into where perpetrators have waited for the family to come down in the morning and then they pounce on them, make them open the safe and get out before the public are let in.
14:53I've heard of that on many occasions.
14:56Invariably, there was evidence of planning and the ones that would hide in the building if they could, they were the ones, in my opinion, that would have taken the trouble to plan their attack.
15:09The way postmaster's alarms would work is that they're time-locked safes.
15:14It didn't take Sherlock Holmes to work out that I've got to wait until the time-lock's released, otherwise I'm going to set all the alarms off.
15:22And as soon as it stopped, they'd know that they can open the safe and that's the moment a bandit would choose to appear and carry out the robbery.
15:39After the appeal, and lost the appeal, the work started with robbing in prison, you know, letters going backwards and forwards, asking for, you know, wanting stuff and looking at stuff and the work was absolutely relentless.
15:54Trying to, you know, put things together, find things out as best we could.
16:01He plugged away and sort of helped in the best he could and he'd do all the work from his cell realistically.
16:09The work he did, didn't he? He just didn't give in. I copied and copied and copied and copied, didn't I?
16:16Stood for hours copying and sending to him.
16:18So he could look at it and then he could write to people, couldn't he? He wrote to specialists. He never stopped, did he?
16:24No.
16:25He was going to prove that there was somebody out there that had done this to die.
16:30And if he could prove he hadn't done it, then that person would be found.
16:35I've struggled with Robin getting attention. He's always maintained his innocence.
16:58Of course, I understand if he is innocent, then it's terrible.
17:04If he's wrongly convicted of a crime he didn't do and is serving a lengthy time in prison.
17:14But at the same time, it's about getting the truth about what happened to Diana.
17:20That's the most important thing, is Diana.
17:24She was a real person and she was special.
17:38I just think there can be too much attention and line light given to the wrong thing.
17:45The only body that can refer your case back to the Court of Appeal is the CCRC, the Criminal Case Review Commission.
18:05And the thing about the CCRC is it can only refer a case back to the Court of Appeal if there's fresh evidence that wasn't available at the time of the original trial.
18:19So it goes, what is fresh, what is new, since you were convicted?
18:28I got involved in the Diana Garbutt murder case at the request of solicitors acting for the defendant.
18:35At the original trial, the really key evidence against him was about the fact that the pathologist had said that she died in the early hours of the morning.
18:47It was kind of between 2.30 and 4.30, it was said to the jury.
18:50And obviously they were saying that they had evidence which suggested that that wasn't quite as clear cut, that it could have been later, which would have, you know, tallied with his version of events of a robber coming in and killing her sort of thing.
19:01In terms of estimation of the time of death, I think all the pathologists involved almost all agreed on nearly everything.
19:10So we know when she was last seen alive, we know when she was found.
19:14So that's the first thing.
19:16And then we then start to look at the Rigel Mortis.
19:20Does that really assist? Not really.
19:23The hypostasis, the settling of blood, that doesn't really assist.
19:26The body temperature was measured, but even that is variable.
19:30And when you actually look at the sort of plots and the graphs, it doesn't really take us any further than the two parameters, when she was last seen and when she was found dead.
19:41So then we come into the stomach contents, which is the one area where I thought there was problems.
19:51This is the statement from Jennifer Miller, this.
19:54Time of death, ladies and gentlemen, Dr. Miller, a botanist who also specializes in digestion.
20:04As far as the time of death goes, when it came to trial, the food science lady said that the digestion rate of the food showed that Diana died in the early hours of the morning because of the remaining undigested food in her stomach.
20:15She concluded that the most likely time of death was within the window of 2.30 until 4.30 a.m.
20:23During the trial, I believe the time frames were said to be between half past two and half past four, which really shouldn't be that specific because you don't know the variability in the meal size that started off precisely when she ate that meal.
20:41Did she eat all of the meal? I mean, there's just so many variables that, to be so specific, just didn't stand up.
20:49When an expert gives a time slot of death, it does make for powerful evidence, especially when the jurors are used to films and television,
21:00where the pathologist comes along and says, ah, the time of death was ten past eight.
21:05These days, on a much more sort of scientific basis that pathology works on, we don't do that at all.
21:12Having reviewed all of the material, I just felt that the timing of death wasn't as specific as was suggested.
21:20And then, in fact, we had a much broader timeframe over which to operate, including timings that would fit in with the account provided by the defendant.
21:30So, the time of death has been discredited, as far as we're concerned.
21:46It was submitted to the CCRC that this was problematic, to say the very, very least.
21:52It was unreliable, and the CCRC dismissed it.
21:56How can there be the evidence that there is, the people that have given statements, have spoken, you know, the professionals?
22:22How can they disregard it? It does not make sense. I can't make sense of it.
22:39I'd been a private investigator for about two years, and then, out of the blue, I received a telephone call from the defence of Robin Garber.
22:49And I was instructed to look at the evidence about the murder weapon.
22:59At the trial, it was alleged that Robin Garber, in the early hours of the morning following the murder, had crept across the road in the middle of the night and placed the metal bar on this position, just here, where the little marker is, where the tag is, as taken from the scenes of crimes photograph.
23:24So that is extremely specific as to where the bar was actually found three days later by police search teams.
23:31The murder weapon had been found sitting on top of the wall, hanging over the end of the wall by about four inches on either side, and therefore clearly visible from the opposite side.
23:46So, the witness that we spoke to at the garage that used to be there, he was very specific, and he remembers standing on the morning of the murder, just behind the wall, on the garage side, looking down on the emergency services.
24:04And he clearly remembers that had there been a metal bar on the top of the wall, he would have removed it because it would have been in danger of being knocked off and falling onto somebody's head.
24:19A key part of the prosecution case was that Robin had murdered his wife and then put the bar on that wall.
24:34But the photographs taken on the day that she was murdered, it appears to show it's not there.
24:40But a couple of days later, it appears on that wall. Robin could not have put that there.
24:47Robin was taken to the police station, and then he went with his sister and his brother-in-law back to their home, which is about 70 miles away.
24:56And they were with him from then on.
24:59From Robin leaving Melsenby, even to this day, he's obviously in prison, but he's never stepped foot in Melsenby since then.
25:19The next question is to do with the DNA which is on the rust that was found on Diana's pillow.
25:26Diana's been hit over the head with an iron bar and murdered.
25:33It was a rusty iron bar. Some of that rust has fallen onto the pillow.
25:39Just to put this in context, Doctor, there is evidence of DNA on the pillow, and the DNA does not match Mr. Garbutt.
25:47Yes.
25:50And the reality is that this could be DNA from a murderer.
25:54Potentially, yes.
25:58It's been tested for DNA.
26:01This has been independently looked at by an expert on behalf of Robin Garbutt.
26:06And they can't exclude the police officer, who wasn't on duty on that day.
26:11And the police officers asked, where were you on this day, because you were off work that day.
26:16And he says, I can't remember.
26:24But yet, when he comes back to work, he somehow manages to be one of the police officers who discovers the iron bar on the wall.
26:34Because we know that there was no DNA of Robin Garbutt found on the metal bar.
26:43It's another factor in this murder of Diana Garbutt that really does not make sense.
26:50The reason we're having this discussion now, the reason there is doubt about this case, is because of mistakes that were made earlier in the inquiry, really.
27:00And that's very difficult for his family, but it's even more difficult for her family.
27:04As we learn of the errors made, the confusion around things, questions around the DNA and the weapon that was used to kill Diana, it made me feel really angry.
27:24You know, it's a disservice to Diana.
27:29There's just so many question marks around a lot of the evidence, and I think there were a lot of errors made by the police,
27:36which just made it really hard to say with confidence what happened and whether he was guilty.
27:43Because of all of the question marks around everything, my dad and I are going to go and visit him in the near future to try and find something out or that might help make sense of things.
28:02So my dad and I are going to go together as a support for one another, really.
28:09Going to see him, if I had to think of a question for him, it would be,
28:14you've done the three quarters of your 20 year sentence.
28:19Why not put all your cards on the table and tell us what happened?
28:28In Robin's case, I have never known a case where you've got a murder weapon with DNA on it,
28:35and it's not the guy who was sitting in prison for the murder.
28:41But the CCRC rejected that as well.
28:43It's just rejecting every single thing that's been submitted.
28:47And whether it's time of death, whether it's the murder weapon,
28:49the CCRC is just like computer says no, computer says no, computer says no, computer says no,
28:53yes, we could find that out, we're not prepared to do it.
28:55We don't think if we do that, this.
28:56It just shows its reluctance and its lack of commitment to trying to find something out.
28:59It's just rejecting every single thing that's been submitted.
29:01And whether it's time of death, whether it's the murder weapon,
29:03the CCRC is just like computer says no, computer says no, computer says no,
29:07yes, we could find that out, we're not prepared to do it,
29:09we don't think if we do that, this.
29:10It just shows its reluctance and its lack of commitment to trying to find out the truth.
29:26I don't understand why it keeps getting knocked back.
29:28I don't think the justice system is fair.
29:31I don't know if he did it, but I've not seen any evidence that indicates that Robin did it.
29:39All the evidence that led to the conviction, it's been discredited to my mind.
29:56In general conversation, in the village, in the pub, it's not spoken about.
30:00It's spoken about in our close circle of friends, but no further than that.
30:10I suppose, you know, Melstonby has become sort of synonymous with it, hasn't it?
30:15It's certainly what I think of when I hear the name of the village.
30:20Somebody once said to us,
30:21he shouldn't know about what you're doing because it'll upset him.
30:24He won't be able to carry on with life in prison.
30:28So you separate it for him.
30:30Don't tell him all the details of what you're doing because he can't do it.
30:34That hasn't been right.
30:36He needs the people in Melstonby.
30:38He needs that commitment from everybody.
30:41And they're just there for him and that keeps him so strong.
30:44And everyone keeps him going.
30:47But knowing about them and their lives keeps him with us in our world.
30:51We can't stop fighting for him.
30:57But as time goes on, I do feel Di gets lost.
31:01She'll only be remembered as the postmistress.
31:04She won't be remembered as Di.
31:06We've lost two friends.
31:10We've lost Di, who's obviously not with us anymore.
31:14And then you've lost Robin, who's sort of convicted of Di's murder.
31:20So it's a loss all around, to be fair.
31:38Hooray! Hooray!
31:42The post office today issued an unreserved apology.
31:46But for 14 years, it prosecuted hundreds of subpostmasters and subpostmistresses
31:51for stealing money, accusing them of fraud.
31:54On the basis of a computer system it knew was defective
31:57and was wrongly reporting cash shortfalls.
32:00I've never trusted Horizon.
32:03It was introduced into my branch about 2001.
32:08It was shortly after its introduction,
32:11I started to hear these complaints from members
32:14that things weren't going right with their accounts,
32:17whereas before everything works swimmingly.
32:22It was a slow build-up of information from thereafter
32:26that Horizon was not working as it should do.
32:30Why Horizon seems to be significant for Robin
32:36is because we see the Horizon evidence as being one of the main,
32:41if not the main piece of evidence,
32:43because it's claimed to support the motive for why he murdered his wife.
32:48And it discredits the reliabilities of the entries
32:51which were relied upon in the original trial.
32:55And I've said this case may be the most egregious miscarriage
32:59of justice stemming from the post office scandal.
33:08Highly emotional sense of relief was almost palpable
33:11when hundreds of post office branch managers,
33:14wrongly convicted of embezzling money,
33:16learned today they will be exonerated and compensated.
33:19The public don't like their institutions that they hold dear,
33:28to get involved in any form of controversy.
33:31And for a controversy as vast as what the post office became embroiled in,
33:35I think the loss of trust in the post office with the public,
33:39in a word, it's been devastating.
33:41It's been devastating.
33:53Life killer, or a victim of post office lies.
33:57Perhaps Robin's seen all this and thought,
34:00like, all these Christmases have come at once.
34:04The body which reviews potential miscarriages of justice
34:17is being asked to look again at the case of a sub postmaster
34:20who's serving life in prison for murdering his wife.
34:23Garbutt is embarking on a fourth attempt to have his conviction overturned.
34:27Evidence from the Horizon IT system helped convict him,
34:30but now his lawyers say new evidence has emerged
34:33about the faulty computer system,
34:35along with information from the post office inquiry.
34:38Friends have labelled it a final roll of the dice.
34:42Diana's mother has accused Garbutt of jumping on the Horizon bandwagon,
34:47but his supporters say he never had a fair trial
34:51and it's time for a wider look at his case.
34:55Various people have said that Robin's using this
34:57to jump on the bandwagon, which is not the case at all.
35:02This isn't a recent thing.
35:04Back in the trial, our initial appeal was on the post office before
35:08any Horizon situation has come to light, anything like that.
35:14This has just added weight,
35:16and this has added power to what we've been fighting against all along.
35:22Even if one accepts that the Horizon scandal has impacted upon this case,
35:26you know, as it has done with so many other post offices across the country,
35:30how does that directly contradict the version of events that was given
35:34in terms of the events of that night?
35:39I've seen the appeal, this fourth application.
35:42I think there's definitely fresh evidence that the Horizon experts should not have been relied upon,
35:49and if the jury heard what they would know now, they might say that Robin's case was unsafe.
35:54He wants the CCIC to send him back to the appeal court, and he wants to prove that he wasn't...
36:00He's not guilty of this, and that's the only way he can do it, and he wants to go back, doesn't he?
36:05Yeah.
36:06He doesn't want the easy way out. He doesn't want to just come out and walk out and come home.
36:10He wants to do the court and prove that he has not done this.
36:14He wants a retrial?
36:15Yeah.
36:16Then that proves without any doubt.
36:19We've not had closure, and we still can't move on from what happened to Diana,
36:26because it still doesn't make any sense.
36:29You okay?
36:30I sense probably that the Horizon evidence will not be sufficient to bring about another trial.
36:44That's my sense of it, but I could be wrong.
36:46We want to know, should we have sympathy for this man?
37:00Should we have empathy for him being trapped in prison?
37:02Or should we not care that this man has the audacity to say he didn't kill his wife,
37:07and he's just trying it on?
37:09Because if people can do these kind of murders, they can certainly tell lies to somebody like me.
37:18It's about 15 years since I spoke to Robin.
37:22I think it was the day of my 40th birthday.
37:26It's been quite a while.
37:29There are two possibilities, aren't there?
37:31One is that there is a terrible miscarriage of justice here.
37:34I will contend the opposite, actually.
37:36I think that there's a failure on his behalf to just acknowledge what he's done, really.
37:38And that must be a subject of some kind of contention and controversy for the people who just want to draw a line under it.
37:49I don't expect to come from here today being, like, totally convinced one way or the other.
37:54But, you know, we spent a lot of time thinking, well, if Robin didn't do it, what did happen?
38:01And it's like, it just drains your energy.
38:04So, you know, getting to the bottom of it is the absolute task.
38:08And Robin needs to know that we'll never give up.
38:11There's no reward.
38:23You know, we can't bring Diana back.
38:26But, you know, somebody's got to speak up and, you know, tell everybody that we missed Diana.
38:40You have this thing, don't you, where people convince themselves that, you know, they haven't done it in order to somehow deal with it, I think.
38:52It's so hard to judge, isn't it, in these cases.
38:53You missed me?
38:54Yeah.
38:55Yeah.
38:56Let's be honest, there's only really a Robin Gorman knows, isn't there?
38:57What happened down that night.
38:59Did feel a bit like an audience with Robin.
39:00He's got his, um, story and it's not going to change.
39:04He said, well, I'm doing the right thing, maintaining his innocence.
39:08And he's got his, um, story and it's not going to change.
39:11He said, well, I'm doing the right thing.
39:14Maintaining his innocence.
39:15It's, like, the right thing for Di.
39:17You know, sticking to the story, stroke, telling the truth.
39:21But I guess he almost has to do that.
39:23Like, he was never going to sort of, you know...
39:26Mm.
39:27..you know, sticking to the story, stroke, telling the truth.
39:30But I guess he almost has to do that.
39:31Like, he was never going to sort of...
39:33Mm.
39:34..you know.
39:35..you know.
39:36..you know.
39:37He's not going to buckle.
39:38He's not going to buckle.
39:39He's not going to buckle, er, any time soon, you know.
39:42But he's not been able to persuade you that he's an innocent man.
39:45No, he's tried to.
39:46Mm.
39:47He's definitely tried.
39:48But I'm, er, an underweiser.
39:51Yeah.
39:52I'd say if he's done it, that's one definite thing.
39:55But I'm, er, an underweiser.
39:58Yeah.
39:59I'd say if he's done it, that's one definite thing.
40:04If he's done it, that's one definite thing from today.
40:07If he's done it, he's not going to, er, change his tune.
40:12Like, he'll take it to the grave.
40:15Mm.
40:17There isn't any closure.
40:19There can only be closure when somebody says,
40:22I'm guilty.
40:24Or...
40:25I was responsible.
40:26..this is what happened.
40:27If Robin's appeal goes well, he's going to move on.
40:32And we're not going to be any other ways, er.
40:46Diana isn't able to say what happened.
40:49And so you won't be evidence to speak on her behalf.
40:53You know, the police have got a job to do,
40:57and when they don't do it properly, like,
40:59the outcome's devastating for the families left,
41:02not knowing what truly happened.
41:08And there isn't justice for Diana.
41:11I don't know.
41:12I don't know.
41:14I don't know.
41:16I don't know.
41:17What happens to be so wild.
41:18I suppose a child backlog is in mere place.
41:19She knows her, and she thinks she's in such anありがとう gold.
41:21Have no后.
41:22She's on her, I don't know.
41:24And so I've waited for her to death and I was like,
41:26to Pat.
41:27It into the car.
41:28You should have had a still baby,
41:32but be able torel pudgated through.
41:34And the car doesn't have the place under the sun.
41:37I don't know, so it's not me.
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