- 4 minutes ago
Murder at the Post Office - Season 1 Episode 2 -
The Last Eyewitness
The Last Eyewitness
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00:00They said that they'd found this weapon, murder weapon.
00:21They said that it had DNA on it, but nothing of Robin.
00:25There was nothing there at all to say that Robin had done it.
00:32There was no physical piece of evidence to link Robin to the death of Dinah at all.
00:38Not on his clothes from the minute he found her to being arrested to any of it.
00:44There was nothing. There's never been anything, has there?
00:47So we were confident. Everybody kept saying, we'll be fine, we'll be fine.
00:50In terms of prosecution case, my abiding memory of the evidence
00:55is that he was eviscerated in the dock.
00:57But then the jury's told in court his DNA is not on the weapon.
01:03And that's, from a prosecution perspective, really difficult.
01:09Everyone in court was thinking there is a great element of doubt there
01:12and he may be innocent.
01:23Andrew, what's the emergency?
01:25Armed police were scrambled to a quiet North Yorkshire hamlet this morning.
01:29The wife's been attacked.
01:31She's been attacked?
01:32He had a gun and he said to me, don't be stupid, we've got your wife.
01:3740-year-old Diana was found dead in the living quarters of the post office she ran with her
01:43husband Robin in the village of Melsenby.
01:45The husband of North Yorkshire postmistress Diana Garbutt has been charged with her murder.
01:50This version of events of a robber coming in and killing her, it just wasn't plausible.
01:54I started to wonder, does that make him look guilty?
02:00But clearly there were flaws in that original investigation.
02:05I think the more in the court these things came up, the more you thought,
02:10well, something's going wrong here.
02:11I'm not a police officer, I'm not a detective, but clearly something's not being done properly.
02:20Something just didn't add up.
02:23The prosecution believed Robin had been stealing from the post office over a period of time.
02:28And that was based on information provided by the Horizon system.
02:32The post office prosecuted 736 of their own staff for theft or false accounting.
02:40The real culprit, the Horizon computer system.
02:44When they finally got the records, I looked at the statements and immediately I said,
02:50oh, hang on a minute, in my opinion, there's another side to this story.
02:53If there's flaws in this Horizon system, how can anything produced by the Horizon system
03:02be safely used in a court of law as evidence?
03:08It's about getting the truth about what happened to Diana.
03:23During the court process, you feel as if you're supposed to be in one camp or the other.
03:43Obviously his family are persuaded that he's not guilty.
03:47Whereas Di's family, her mum, Agnes, was persuaded that, you know, we've worked out what's happened,
03:57he's guilty, we're just going to go through this process of proving him guilty.
04:04I was in the, I don't know if he's guilty or not, guilty camp.
04:08I don't know what happened. Try and decide as if a, as if he was a 13th member of the jury.
04:26Members of the jury, you are now going to hear from Mr. Hill, who appears on behalf of the defense.
04:32Ladies and gentlemen, I am going to suggest the prosecution case is no more than a theory,
04:40one which the police happened upon at an early stage.
04:45The area which the prosecution have perhaps concentrated on the most is the idea of motive.
04:52The prosecution have explored two areas, Mr. Garbutt's private life and their personal finances.
04:58Hearing what people were saying about Robin diet trial, their personal life,
05:06for a lot of people in the village, it was very hurtful.
05:10They made out that she was like sleeping around and things.
05:15We have a close friend who had been going biking with her. And again, they had to say that
05:24that was some sort of relationship going on because she couldn't go biking with somebody
05:29on her own or whatever.
05:32In 2009, we had a bit of a rough patch.
05:35It happened sometimes with couples. Diana said she might need some space. We discussed it.
05:43When you get up at 4.30 and work late in a shop, you are tired.
05:46We didn't have enough sex. It upset Di at times, but we did discuss it.
05:54The prosecution suggested that it was a loveless marriage, that his wife was being unfaithful
05:58and was in contact with several men either directly or through the internet.
06:06Di did confide in me quite a bit, not about everything.
06:11We would sit and have coffee, you know, and chat, as friends would do.
06:19In terms of affairs, I didn't know any of that.
06:27I don't know. I can't answer that one.
06:30She quite liked to chat to people and just, you know, spend time with them,
06:35getting to know them, regardless of who they were or what age they were or,
06:39you know, male or female. And that could have come across as being flirtatious.
06:46The court also heard that Mrs Garbert had a page on a dating website on which she described
06:52herself as a 41-year-old girl looking to meet a guy aged between 35 and 50.
07:02The prosecution set great store by the Badoo website. Although the computer crime unit
07:06trawled through Diana's laptop, there was no sign at all that she ever replied to any compliment
07:11or message saying, hello.
07:14They were saying that she was on a dating website. I didn't know that. She'd never told me that.
07:20She'd never replied to anybody on this dating site. All it was was people messaging her or liking her
07:27picture. And all I could think of was that she kind of needed that bit of an ego boost. You know,
07:32she was and maybe her self-esteem was struggling a little bit. Did you suspect she was having
07:38affairs with other men? I didn't suspect I was having affairs. As of March 2010, what did you think
07:46of the relationship? We had the best relationship. I thought we were a loving couple. I miss her terribly.
07:53They're making Di out to be somebody that kissed and got drunk and flirted. And it's wrong to do that
08:00when she's not here to say why. She can't answer for herself. There was one drunken kiss. There was
08:06flirtatious banter. It wasn't anything new to Robin was any of that. It was a drunken kiss. Di went back to
08:16Robin and told him everything. They sorted it out. It was fine and they carried on. The thing is,
08:22it's a year ago. It isn't a month ago. It wasn't the week. They had a wonderful marriage, didn't they?
08:28They worked through the bits and bobs that they've always done that because they've always talked.
08:33They've always been close. There only is them two. There's no children. Either of them could walk away,
08:37but they built a relationship together and he was devoted to her and they were fine.
08:44The prosecution said Diana Garbutt's infidelity intensified,
08:47but there is absolutely no evidence of that whatsoever. I suggest it is very,
08:54very thin evidence of motive. In fact, no evidence of motive at all.
09:00So the motive must have been their financial affairs, of course, personal finance.
09:04Why is this a reason for him to kill his wife?
09:11Di and Robin never talked about their financials. They weren't extravagant. They didn't have
09:19luxury holidays. They didn't go out for expensive meals and things like that.
09:25But there was lots of rumours that Robin was stealing from the post office
09:31by ordering lots of money and then not sending it back.
09:40Cash management was an important part of running a branch. Part of your end of day procedure would be
09:47to count every single note, every single coin in the branch and that had to be entered into the Horizon system.
09:55Once you'd done that, you could then put the money away, lock up the safe and that was the end of your day.
10:02That assisted then this algorithm to work out whether surpluses were building up
10:07or whether funds were running low and then it would adjust the cash that it would deliver to you.
10:14But it didn't actually work like that in practice because invariably it was wrong.
10:19And there were always arguments between Postmaster and Cash Centre as to whether or not he could top
10:27up his holdings in the branch with extra money. It was a constant thorn in our side trying to get
10:34the cash levels right in a branch in order to serve the customers.
10:43The police and the post office looked into Robin Dyne's finances and they said that
10:49that Robin had been stealing over a period of time to sustain their lifestyle.
10:53They said that Robin was ordering more and more money from the post office
10:56and used it like a bank almost. However, there is no physical evidence of Robin doing anything
11:03untoward with money that could have been taken from the post office.
11:07Where did all the cash come from? We weren't desperate. We didn't take cash from the post office.
11:16Our credit card debt had increased. We were mindful of that.
11:20We spent weekends away at nice hotels. We spent maybe £4,000 per annum on holidays.
11:29To the post office. Well, the prosecution invested a lot of time suggesting that the money may not have
11:34been in the safe. So the evidence given by the post office, a reputable institution,
11:40I'm sure the jury will have just taken that on board. That's going to be right. We aren't saying
11:44I'm going to question that. And to be quite honest, the way they gave it all, it lost everybody in the
11:50courtroom anyway. They lost me. If the Garbots had been in desperate financial straits,
11:57why is this a reason for him to kill his wife? It is a matter for you to consider.
12:03The prosecution evidence is essentially that it's a crime of passion. When you've got, you know,
12:08adulterous relationships, when you've got unhappiness, when you've got financial difficulties,
12:13you've got an awful lot of pressure on a relationship there, haven't you? Tension and
12:16potential, you know, motive for the murder. Do not forget, it was Diana who was doing the books.
12:21Diana who liaised with the accountant. She was the one who had a handle on the financial situation.
12:27Diana's the postmistress. The police say Diana had been doing the account. And so,
12:34she would have known before 2010, if there'd been anything missing.
12:38I think the prosecution at the trial didn't have a clue at any direction they were going. They were
12:53just jumping at ideas. So, what they brought forward was it was stealing from the post office.
13:01When that wasn't working so well, it was Diane was having an affair. And when that wasn't working
13:06so well, something else would be thrown in. I don't think they had a direction or any idea. They were
13:13fumbling all the way through it.
13:18For somebody to be doing the job that they're doing, and there to be no physical evidence for
13:24him to have killed her. None whatsoever. It really is unbelievable. For me, I would have to have
13:30physical evidence to say someone had killed someone.
13:33I was involved in the investigation early on. And the investigation team had a set of images of the
13:51bedroom where Diana was found before any samples really have been taken, before exhibits have been
13:59removed. So, I can see what it was like at the moment that that scene came under police control.
14:10The crime scene essentially was the bedroom above the post office itself.
14:16It was just a regular dwelling where there was a double bed, bedside tables and lamps.
14:27There were images that showed Diana on the bed. And she was positioned on her back on effectively the
14:37left-hand side of the bed. And it was clear that there was an enormous amount of blood staining that
14:43was present on the sheets and on the bedding.
15:01Further on at the trial, we've learned more of the detail, you know, that she'd been hit on the head
15:06from behind. And, you know, more than likely that she was asleep at the time.
15:14A post-mortem later confirmed three distinct head injuries.
15:19Blows delivered by a blunt object, likely a metal rod.
15:24That was so distressing. So distressing. And I kept thinking, why three? You know,
15:31why have you done it three times? That's just evil. A reconstruction was carried out with the head of
15:39a mannequin to test the sequence of events. The pathologist drew on this head the injuries that Diana
15:52had sustained. And then that allowed us then to sort of use this as a three-dimensional prop that we
16:01could then realign it with the pillow to try and understand how the blood staining might have
16:06developed from the injuries. If her head's in the pillow facing to her left, then she's probably
16:15asleep when the first blow is delivered and then turned to face her right, which is very likely where
16:24the assailant was stood. And where there are two additional blows in one order or the other.
16:32They often say that the victim is the last eyewitness. And probably she turned to see her assailant.
16:44The women in the family are the strong characters. You know, whoever did it,
16:49you know, put Robin as one of the options. But if it wasn't Robin, somebody else put an end to her life
16:59in a brutal, cowardly way.
17:03And, you know, if you're a fighter, you don't expect that to happen to you.
17:08I was really worried about my dad, knowing that he'd be exposed to the level of detail of the crime and
17:22how close he was to Diana, knowing that he'd have to sit and listen to, you know, horrendous details about
17:31her death. He hadn't gone into court gunning for Robin, being guilty. He didn't see it like that at all.
17:45He just wanted to establish as many facts as possible and wanted to make sense of it.
18:01The pillow is kind of like the cover of the book.
18:07You know, it's like the picture. And you think, I wonder what the detail is within it.
18:13There was a kind of brown smear. And it was this kind of transfer of material that went across the
18:22pillow. It wasn't blood, but it was brown. So it looked like perhaps a rust-like type material.
18:30Just to put this in context, Doctor, there is evidence of DNA on the pillow,
18:36and the DNA does not match Mr. Garbutt.
18:38Yes.
18:43And the reality is that this could be DNA from a murderer.
18:48Potentially, yes.
18:49They said that it had DNA on it, but nothing of Robin.
18:54But unknown male DNA.
18:56Yeah. And dies.
18:57And dies.
18:58Just the fact that there had been unknown male DNA suggests straight away that there is other
19:04people involved in this. Otherwise, why would unknown male DNA be on the pillow?
19:11The alleged murder weapon, the iron bar, was found two days later, about 20 yards away from the house,
19:31on top of an eight foot, ten foot high stone wall.
19:40It was proven that one end of the murder weapon was Diana's DNA. She'd been struck by it.
19:45And on the other end of the murder weapon was the DNA of a policeman.
19:51No DNA of Robin whatsoever on the murder weapon.
19:55I'm in North Yorkshire police. I'm currently based at York.
20:03On March 25th, there was a search for linear objects at Nelson Bay.
20:09The whole of my team was deployed.
20:13How did your DNA get in areas B and C?
20:19I can't recall if I touched it. DNA can be transferred airborne.
20:24I may have touched it. I did not pick it up.
20:27It's such an important thing that his DNA is on that murder weapon at the opposite end of Diana's DNA.
20:39In your second interview, you were asked several times about your whereabouts on the 23rd?
20:46There's a number of things I could have been doing. It's six months down the line.
20:51I checked the telephone, bank statements and my mobile phone. I can't find out.
20:57It's six months down the line.
20:59Clearly, there were flaws in that original investigation. There's no two ways about it.
21:02You know, to have a potential murder weapon and for the DNA to be contaminated in that way,
21:09that's, from a prosecution perspective, really difficult.
21:13Everyone in court was thinking there is a great element of doubt there and he may be innocent.
21:27Mr. Garbert, when do you think Diana died on that morning?
21:33I don't know. I have been going through this in my head. I think it happened between 4.30am and half past eight.
21:40And you heard nothing of anyone moving upstairs?
21:43No.
21:43A big plea was made of the fact that there was a struggle upstairs. His wife was murdered and he was completely unaware of it.
21:51She would have put up a fight, wouldn't she?
21:53I would have thought so, knowing Di, yes.
21:56But you heard nothing whatsoever? No struggle or fight or scream?
22:02I did not hear anything.
22:03So it appears that your wife has been killed without any apparent struggle.
22:09I don't agree with that. There was a clump of hair by her head which suggests a struggle.
22:16There was a big projection slide put up and it showed a clump of hair on the bed near the pillow.
22:24It was a shock because my first thoughts in my head is that Di must have kicked into her army, won and fought.
22:39And that what she's done is pulled the clump of hair out of that person.
22:43It wasn't the colour of Robin's hair, it wasn't the colour of Diana's hair, it was a different colour hair.
22:50Obviously they could have tested the route, got the DNA, if it was on the database they could have told you who it was.
23:01However, North Yorkshire Police happened to lose the clump of hair.
23:06Well they asked where it was, didn't they? Yeah.
23:08They show it on the tractor, they show it on the projector, didn't they?
23:11And then they said could you produce that? And they said no, we can't because we don't know where it is.
23:14We don't know where it is, we've lost it.
23:20The head being lost as an exhibit is extraordinary really.
23:24It's just like one thing after another, after another.
23:28It just beggars belief.
23:31I'm not a police officer, I'm not a detective, but clearly something's not being done properly.
23:39I think they thought, right, Robin's done it and therefore we're going to concentrate on
23:44just the evidence to fit that and not look further afield.
23:48I think the more in the court these things came up, the more you thought, well, something's going wrong here.
23:55Something's happening here that isn't coming out right because this all can't be happening.
24:01The errors that were made in terms of the handling of the murder weapon
24:05and also with a clump of air, it being lost.
24:10That leaves that doubt, doesn't it, to a certain degree.
24:15But I would suggest that it is pretty much eradicated by all the rest of the evidence against him, really.
24:20On the night before the murder, Mr. Garbert had gone to Batley's and other stores
24:34before picking up fish and chips.
24:37He returned home between 8 and 8.30pm.
24:41I took the fish and chips into the house, diportioned it up.
24:48I was asleep by 9.30pm.
24:52For the prosecution, when she had her final meal and when she died, time of death was absolutely crucial.
24:58Dr. Jennifer Miller examined the contents of the deceased's stomach after the post-mortem.
25:03How do you make the assessment?
25:06Digestion can cease on death or on onset of severe trauma.
25:10She had fish and chips, apparently, that had been digested.
25:14And you can tell a time of death from the contents of somebody's stomach
25:17because it stops being digested, obviously, when someone dies, effectively.
25:20The timescale is most likely six to eight hours after consumption.
25:25Six and eight hours later.
25:28So, taking the latest of those two times, 8.30,
25:32would mean that the digestive process most likely ceased between 2.30 and 4.30 in the morning?
25:38Most likely, yes.
25:40They had an expert witness who said that they've examined the stomach contents
25:47and she died in line with the prosecution case.
25:51She was so powerful in the dark, everybody thought, oh, my God, that was quite bad.
25:58Evidence against Robin.
26:00The really key evidence against him was about the fact that the pathologist had said
26:04that she died in the early hours of the morning.
26:06So, his account of her being murdered just before the robber came down
26:10and took the money from the safe and then left the premises.
26:13That kind of started to fall apart, really.
26:15In my experience, the way Postman's alarms would work is that they're time-lock safes.
26:34That morning, the unlocking process commenced at exactly 8.31 and 54 seconds AM.
26:41You're getting a beep, beep, beep, beep, beep, beep sound for about four minutes.
26:49And then when it went silent, the locks had been undone.
26:52The jury was told in court that there was only two minutes between
27:01safe opening and him making the 999 call.
27:04In fact, it was less than two minutes.
27:05Ambulance, what's the address of the emergency?
27:08It says it's the call shop to East Road, Nelsonbury.
27:11The robbery had to have taken place between 8.35 and 54 and 8.37 and 13 seconds.
27:19So, if you take his version of events at face value, robber has to get in,
27:26get the money out, make the threats to him and then he's got away in less than two minutes.
27:32I opened the safe door, pulled the stamp tray out and put the tray on top of the safe.
27:40Then I heard a noise. I thought it was Di.
27:43The guy was stood by the side door and he had a bag with him.
27:48He went to the shop till and took some money from the tray?
27:51Yes. And then he left.
27:52And by his account, it all took place at a very, very busy time, not only for the shop,
27:58but in the village. You know, people are waking up, people are walking dogs or whatever it is.
28:03No one has seen the person come out who's committed that murder.
28:05I was hanging washing up at about 8.39 in the morning.
28:12I can see the post office rear door from there.
28:15The door to the post office was closed.
28:18I saw no one or heard no one from the direction of the post office.
28:23I saw no one crossing the yard.
28:25Presumably, having gone upstairs, you went into the bedroom to see your wife
28:33and assessed the situation before telephoning the police.
28:37I can't remember because of this situation. I can't remember at all.
28:40Anybody listening to that evidence would think,
28:42why didn't you go across and check her? Why didn't you find out if she was dead?
28:47Why didn't you make an effort to resuscitate?
28:48There was no need to go in because you knew that you had bludgeoned her to death.
28:53That is all wrong.
28:55I dialed 999. I would never hurt die.
29:11And you'll input the address of the emergency.
29:14For the close of the trial, North Yorkshire Police released the details of the 999 call.
29:21It's the car shop to East Road, Melstonbury.
29:23And that was actually released in its full, in its entirety, the recording.
29:28And that steers with you. That was a very, for me anyway,
29:31that was my abiding memory of that trial.
29:33The 999 call made at precisely 8.37 on the morning of the 23rd of March last year from
29:42Belsenby Post Office was the first the outside world knew of the tragedy that had befallen postmistress
29:48Diana Garbett. A distraught Robin Garbett is heard pleading with operators for help to save his dying wife.
29:56Are you with your wife now?
30:00Yes.
30:00How old is she?
30:02She's, um, 13, I don't know, 34, 35.
30:06She's 40, she's 40, she's 40.
30:09Right, sir. Is she conscious?
30:11No, sir. She's got a funny colour and she's not responding to anything.
30:17OK, is she breathing?
30:19I don't think so, honey, no.
30:22Apart from calling 999, did you do anything to help Mrs Garbett?
30:28Did you give her resuscitation?
30:31She was lying on her front. I tried to turn her over. I did try to help her.
30:37What I want you to do is, I want you to check her breathing.
30:40How do I do that? She's laying, she's laying, she's laying tall on her, she's laying on her belly with her head right in the pillow.
30:46Right, right, sir, lay her flat on her back on the ground.
30:51I tried, don't we? She's in bed, honey, she's in bed. I can't move her.
30:55Right, sir, we need to try, OK? We're going to try and help her.
30:59I can't move her.
31:00We had to sit and listen to him.
31:03And honestly, you've just, his voice and it, it was just awful to hear. Awful.
31:14You're doing really well, sir, just trying to put her on her back.
31:17Did you manage to get her on her back?
31:18No, she's so low, there's blood everywhere. I'm scared, she's terrible.
31:23Right, wait, have you managed to get her on her back?
31:26No, she said she's on her back, she's back.
31:29I've moved her, but she's back on her back, she's back in the belly.
31:34Is there anybody nearby, a neighbour that you can go and get to help you?
31:39Paramedics found themselves dealing with a frantic Robin Garbutt over the telephone.
31:44They asked him, was there anyone nearby that he could call upon to help?
31:48And the woman he turned to was close friend and neighbour, Pauline Dye.
31:55Hello. Hello, right, we need to get, have you got somebody there to help you?
31:58I've got Pauline here, but we're both so scared.
32:01I understand. I'm going to tell you exactly what to do, OK?
32:05Between the two of you, you need to get your wife on her back, on the floor.
32:10I can't do it.
32:11You can't, you can't do that before, I can't do it.
32:14It's going to happen, it's going to happen, it's going to happen, it's going to happen.
32:18It provided dramatic and emotional evidence today.
32:21Robin Garbutt breaking down in the dock as his 999 call was played out to the court.
32:26Throughout that call, you could hear that Mr Garbutt was crying and in clear distress.
32:31Oh, no. Come down, Diana. Come on.
32:40Are you awake, Diana?
32:41They told him to try various things. I can't, you know, he physically couldn't do it.
32:47So he went and got a neighbour.
32:49The neighbour came round and Sister Robin was rolling Dye over and checking her.
32:53You turned her over and saw what you had done to her in the daylight.
32:58He was then asked if he would check if his wife was still breathing.
33:01And he was heard saying to the late Mrs Garbutt,
33:04Oh, Dye, you're warm.
33:06By then, the paramedics were there and they confirmed that sadly she was dead.
33:12The paramedic team then arrived on the scene and because Mr Garbutt
33:15hadn't hung up the phone, his conversation with them was also recorded.
33:20I want to see you later.
33:22I've only, I've only just, uh, coaxed that, uh, part ten minutes.
33:26Sit up on three, part ten minutes.
33:27I have to see you later.
33:28But you'd like that to remove the, you know, see what you want.
33:34Is she all right?
33:36Madam?
33:36Tell me, tell me, tell me.
33:42I knew it.
33:44You know, I knew it.
33:48Forensic analysis was essentially that she died an awful lot earlier in the night.
33:52And the paramedic was saying there was a bit of a discussion, and I know it sounds odd,
33:58where Robin was saying, is she still warm, or words to that effect.
34:01And he was saying, no, she's been dead for some time.
34:03And he was, he was kind of contradicting that even at that stage,
34:06because he would have been aware, the prosecution contended, that that was going to contradict his alibi.
34:10He was captured saying to a member of the ambulance team, of his wife,
34:16she's warm.
34:17And she's been down for a while, and it's what we call him.
34:22Look.
34:23He was captured saying to a member of the ambulance team, of his wife, she's warm.
34:33The paramedic then told him, but if you look, sir, that's what we call rigor mortis.
34:38Mr. Garbutt says to him, it's not rigor mortis.
34:41The paramedic replies, it is, I'm afraid. And she's been down for some time.
34:45The paramedic said she was blue. She was subject to rigor mortis.
34:51I cannot remember what the paramedic said. I held her hand.
34:56You knew her arm was stiff.
34:59Her fingers moved. Her legs moved. When I tried to turn her over, I was mindful of that.
35:05He really was eviscerated in the dock, in terms of his account.
35:09And I think he was trying, in my opinion, he was trying to justify an awful lot of things,
35:13particularly in regard to the time scale and the time frame. That was just ludicrous, really.
35:21At what time in the morning did you kill her, Mr. Garbutt?
35:25I would never hurt day. I loved my wife.
35:31She didn't love you though, did she, Mr. Garbutt? She didn't love you.
35:37I think you're very wrong. I think she loved me back.
35:51I had one uncomfortable feeling that I haven't mentioned, which was during the court break.
36:01I walked over to the door of the court just to have peep through the window to see, you know,
36:08is there any action? Is there anybody coming back in through the other way?
36:11And I just looked through that window and in the reflection of that glass, Robin was looking at me.
36:21And that was the first time that I felt, you know, uncomfortable by him.
36:34And then, you know, out of all the evidence that I'd heard,
36:38none of that had made me think that he was guilty.
36:40But he was guilty of that act of, you know,
36:48I can look at your back, but I can't look at your face.
36:50Ladies and gentlemen, I have left until last possibly the most important witness,
37:06Brian Hurt. Not a friend or best mate of Mr. Garbutt, just somebody who used the shop.
37:12Around 6.45, I went to the paper shop. Mr. Garbutt was serving. We passed the time of day.
37:23As I turned to go, I heard a woman's voice. She said one word, Robin. He said,
37:30Yes, Di. I'm 90% sure it was Di, or it was Di.
37:48He was clear that at about 6.45, he heard a voice saying, Robin. He said it sounded like a woman's
37:55voice. And he said either, yes, Di, or yes, dear.
38:03The importance of that evidence cannot be overstated. You just have to look at the till roll to see.
38:11If this is quarter to seven, customers are coming thick and fast. Mr. Garbutt cannot possibly have
38:18run upstairs, hit Diana with an iron bar, run out and pop the bar on the wall.
38:24There is no possible opportunity.
38:28There's no doubt whatsoever that would back up Mr. Garbutt's version of events.
38:33And what's really quite difficult in the legal system is reasonable doubt. I've been in court
38:39cases before where you get people who genuinely, you know, jurors who ask for the judge to explain
38:43what reasonable is. And it's really hard to define, you know.
38:52The jury in the case of a man accused of killing his postmistress wife has retired to consider its
38:57verdict. Robin Garbutt denies the murder of his wife, Diana, at their post office at Melsenby in
39:02North Yorkshire last year.
39:03Much of this boils down to one key issue for the jury to decide. That is, when exactly did
39:11Diana Garbutt die? Now, why is that so...
39:13That atmosphere in the court, when you're waiting for a verdict,
39:17is like something you've never experienced before.
39:22It goes quiet. And then it goes quieter than quiet.
39:29If a minute's silence can feel like a long time,
39:33this feels like forever.
39:38I'd sat there and listened to it all. If I was a juror, I would have been one of the ones that said,
39:43I don't know. Because I don't think you're there to say,
39:47he didn't do it. You're there to say, I'm sure he did. And unless you can, he's not guilty.
39:54Foreman, do you, the jury, find the defendant, Robin Joseph Garbutt, guilty or not guilty,
40:07on the charge of this indictment for murder?
40:13We, the jury, find the defendant, Robin Garbutt, guilty.
40:24The jury, the jury, the jury, the jury, the jury, the jury, the jury, the jury.
40:35His face was just, like, ashen. It was just a real funny colour.
40:42He didn't really look at me or anybody. He wasn't looking at anyone. He was just sort of looking down.
40:48And I just wanted to be able to get to him, because I knew that he would need us,
40:53and we couldn't do that for him.
40:58I find it to be proved that the defendant was stealing cash from the post office safe.
41:05I do not doubt that in some way his fear of exposure led to the murder.
41:12I order that the defendant serves a minimum term of 20 years
41:18before he is considered for release by the parole board.
41:23I do not doubt that the defendant is going to be able to do that for him.
41:25I do not doubt that the defendant is going to be able to do that for him.
41:27To see him there go down those stairs,
41:32that was just the worst thing in my life that I think I'll have ever had to see,
41:38because I knew he hadn't done anything wrong.
41:40I do not doubt that the defendant is going to be able to do that.
41:43I do not doubt that the defendant is going to be able to do that.
41:45I do not doubt that the defendant is going to be able to do that.
41:50I do not doubt that the defendant is going to be able to do that.
41:54I can remember Sally screaming out, oh, no,
41:58and it was just horrendous.
42:03It was like, how have you come to this decision?
42:07What have you based this decision on?
42:12Because it isn't evidence.
42:24We had a meeting with counsel after Robin's conviction.
42:31I banged my hand down on the desk and stood up and said,
42:35you've managed to get the most innocent man in this country
42:39found guilty on one of the worst crimes you can possibly commit.
42:43And Mr Hill turned around and he said, this isn't the end.
42:48He said, because we asked for information from the post office
42:55based on information provided by the Horizon system.
43:01But the post office said that that information wasn't available
43:05when it actually was.
43:09I joined the post office in 1978 and then in 1988,
43:14my wife and I bought our own post office.
43:17And we ran that branch for 38 years.
43:21And all throughout that time,
43:23I played a role helping and representing some post masters
43:27when they got into disputes with the post office.
43:32I've never trusted Horizon.
43:36And when they finally got the records,
43:39I looked at the statements from the post office officials
43:41and immediately I said, well, hang on a minute,
43:44the jury haven't been given all the facts here.
43:46In my opinion, there's another side to this story.
43:48In my opinion, there's another side to this story.
43:49You know what I said.
43:50What's wrong with the facts?
43:51I'm good at it.
43:52I'm good at it.
43:53In my opinion.
43:54In my opinion, I'm sure it's right.
43:55Like, that's the end there.
43:56I mean, you're gonna hold the questions.
43:57I'm good at it.
43:58I'm good at it.
44:01I know.
44:02What do you think?
44:03I can probably get my office.
44:04I think it has to be a challenge.
44:05Don't you know about it's right?
44:06You're gonna have to be a challenge.
44:07I mean, you're gonna have to be a challenge.
44:08I'm good at it.
44:09So, I know it's good at the moment.
44:11And then, of course, we'll be something good at the moment.
44:13Transcription by CastingWords
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