Mainstream, not meme-coins: Inside the rise of crypto-backed home financing

Name: Mainstream, not meme-coins: Inside the rise of crypto-backed home financing
Uploaded: 2025-12-22T23:30:28+00:00
Duration: 49 min 40 s
Channel: HousingWire

00:00This is Zeblo filling in for President Diego Sanchez. Today I'm speaking with Joseph Rupina.

00:05Joseph is the founder and CEO of Milo, a Miami-based fintech that is pioneering crypto-backed

00:11home financing. In our conversation, we talk about how crypto assets are reshaping mortgage

00:16eligibility, what he's seeing from lenders and regulators, where the market is headed as we

00:21look towards 2026, and my $5 million silkscreen purchase disaster.

00:30Joseph, thank you for joining us.

00:35It's great to be here. Thanks for having me on.

00:37Yes, sir. This is a repeat appearance for you. Actually, I believe you were here

00:41in 2022 when our CEO, Clayton Collins, was hosting this show. And back then, things were

00:48quite different, but I think kind of rolling into this conversation,

00:52there are a few similarities in regards to the crypto market, specifically,

00:57mainly the volatility or a relative volatility that the crypto market is continuing to experience.

01:04But before, I guess before we jump into that, can you share a bit about yourself for any new

01:09listeners that we may have and unpack some of the biggest milestones on your journey into the crypto

01:15financing space? I know that some of that is tied into the foreign national financing space as well.

01:22So can you just kind of hit the high notes on all of that?

01:25Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So I started Milo in 2019. We're venture-backed. So we've raised 24

01:31million dollars in capital from a lot of great investors that have been supporting our mission.

01:35We started out lending and creating a digital mortgage offering for international clients that

01:39were buying real estate in the US. And then through that journey in 2021, primarily because of my

01:44interest and passion for Bitcoin and everything in the crypto ecosystem, saw a need primarily that

01:51people were taking out crypto loans to go out and buy property with that. And they felt that there

01:56needed to be a better offering. You know, a one-year crypto loan is not necessarily ideal when you're

02:01buying a long-term asset like real estate, you know, that requires more duration. So we felt that we

02:05needed to build something that was more in line with what a mortgage would be, which would be 30 years.

02:09And then we created the first crypto mortgage offering in 2022, did the first transaction in April

02:16and, you know, spent a lot of money on legal fees and, you know, trying to figure out what was the

02:21best way of doing this and, you know, what would that product look like? And, you know, fast forward to

02:26today, you know, Milo is the leading crypto mortgage provider in the country. We've done about a hundred

02:32million dollars of transactions and that number continues to grow and to accelerate.

02:35When did you get into Bitcoin?

02:38Yeah. So I got into the space and the first time I discovered Bitcoin was 2011.

02:44Unfortunately, so you're one of the old school, I mean, I don't like the retail trader

02:48and the, and the cryptocurrency, the slang, the language, like an old school,

02:52doming hands, hodler.

02:54Yeah. Yeah. I would say that I really got into the space in 2016. You know, I think that 2011,

03:00it was very difficult, right? It was earlier days. It was very difficult to buy anything to really

03:04understand what was going on and it felt very much like the element of like collecting trading cards

03:09and, you know, you'd have to go into a forum and you'd have to find someone that had some Bitcoin

03:12and be able to do that or you, or you had to mine it. And at that time I had another company that I

03:16was running. So I didn't really have the, the, the time to, to be able to, to really, really dive in.

03:24And that didn't really come into 2016. And then, you know, I had a front row seat at what was

03:28happening with ICOs and some of the new ideas that were popping up in the space and really sort

03:34of evolving to eventually saying, you know, we, we, we believe, you know, I'm meaning we, as me,

03:40I believe that people that amass Bitcoin wealth at some point in time, they're going to have to do

03:47something with it. They're going to have to decide whether they, they sell it and then they buy their

03:51everyday needs like a home or, or they're going to have to find companies that do offer those services and

03:58do it in a creative way where they can solve for that. So we wanted to be on the second and be

04:02able to create some of those solutions. That was, I haven't really talked about it much,

04:06but that's one of the biggest, you know, you hear those, they sound like horror stories to me when

04:12someone talks about like ordering a $5 million pizza, you know, back in the day, I lived overseas.

04:17I was in Southeast Asia for several years and I came back here in the early 2010s. And when I came back,

04:23there were some, there was some artwork, there was some silk, uh, silk screen printings of, uh, like

04:30Hanuman and, uh, like these, uh, Thai and Southeast Asian, uh, mythological figures that I, I was able

04:39to get some, I wanted to get more. And, and where I live in Southeast Texas, you couldn't do a regular

04:45online transaction. The Western Union thing took too long and that was troublesome. So I actually got

04:51Bitcoin way back in the day and depleted my, like an idiot. I did it just for the,

04:58just for the utility of it, depleted my wallet. And then, you know, uh, and then I, I blink 15 years

05:05later and it's just, it keeps me up at night. The amount of money, the amount of money that I paid

05:09now for those, those repaintings, right? I think, I think there's people that, uh, that bought, bought a

05:16little bit and you know, that's turned into, if they would have kept it right, that would be

05:20a lot of, a lot of money today. Right. And I think that people think, you know, Bitcoin

05:26has gotten more valuable. The reality is that today we just spend more dollars for the same amount of

05:31Bitcoin, right? So Bitcoin's 21 million, right? It's only going to be 21 million. There's not going

05:36to be any more. Now it is divisible into smaller amounts, but you're going to be able, you just have

05:41to pay more for today, you know, Bitcoin being 89, you know, 90,000 per Bitcoin, right? That's the

05:47same Bitcoin that when we started doing our crypto mortgages was worth 40,000, right? And when we did a

05:52lot of transactions at 20,000. So for a lot of those individuals today, if we go back and we look at,

05:56you know, 2022, how much was that Bitcoin worth relative to how much it's worth today? And it's

06:01continued to appreciate. And I think that that's, that's primarily what we're so excited about is that

06:06a product like ours is going to help people continue to build more wealth. And it's something that we

06:10track. Um, you know, we want to see people build wealth through, through these offerings. Um,

06:14but that element of being able to hold is, uh, it's very difficult. There's, there's so many people

06:21that I run into all the time that say, you know, I had, I had 10 Bitcoin, right? I paid nothing for

06:26it today. Um, you know, yeah, they'd have a lot of it. Right. So, so that's why I relate to all of our,

06:33our clients as, as being courageous, you know, the fact that they were able to hold through this period of

06:37time. Yeah, that's, I mean, I know that's all, that is a movement, right? It's a, it's a

06:42philosophical movement amongst lots of the, uh, Bitcoin adopters where they, but it's the, you

06:49know, they said, it's, they're holding the line. That's a revolutionary way of, uh, financing and

06:54communicating and sharing energy. That's, it goes for much deeper than just finance for sure.

06:59Yeah. And I think that's, that's the part where a lot of, if you think about, you know, traditional finance,

07:03um, I think that's the part that they're still getting their head around of how much this is part

07:08of people's identity and the fact that they believe that this is going to be worth so much more. And

07:12when you tell someone, well, why don't you just buy a piece of property and sell your Bitcoin for it

07:16after they've been holding it for 10 years? I think that that's a part where people, I think, need to

07:20understand that, that, that, that is maybe one of the most offensive things that you could tell them to do

07:25is to give up their beliefs, um, and how they decide to hold their wealth.

07:30Yeah. Yes. So whenever you spoke to Clayton, uh, at 22, back in 2022, it was, uh, Bitcoin reached to,

07:39it was close to 50,000 that year. It had gotten around $48,000 and then it closed the year around

07:44$16,000. And this year we've seen a bit to instilled that it got up into the low hundred thousands,

07:52fell down to the high to mid seventies. And it looks like now we're going to close out the year

07:57right at the $90,000. It's like an 89,900 something this morning, I believe. So where you look at,

08:04you know, when you look at you and where Milo is now as company closing out 2025, as opposed to

08:09where you were in 2022, what's, how much has changed in your space and with your company?

08:16Yeah. Yeah. I think for us, we've always thought about, you know, the value of the Bitcoin and how we

08:20think about the business, um, if Bitcoin's worth more or the value is worth more, then there will

08:28be people that have a greater amount of wealth that could potentially use our, use our offerings.

08:32Um, so from where we started, right, people are five times as wealthy as they were back then,

08:36which generally is a, is a good thing given that, you know, the structure of our offering requires

08:40them to post, you know, Bitcoin with one of our qualified custodians, Coinbase or BitGo.

08:45Um, so we view that as long-term bullish for the business. Um, I think from a perspective

08:50of saying, you know, Milo as a company and the decisions that we make means that we need to be

08:53around for a very long period of time because of that factor that we are lending to individuals,

08:58but they're also posting their Bitcoin with us. Um, so we have to do things in a certain way.

09:02We have to do things, you know, maybe not the typical adage of, you know, you know, move fast and

09:07break things right for us, right. There's a zero tolerance to breaking things because we need,

09:11we need to be around for a long time. Um, so we've always thought about risk, right. And saying,

09:16well, what's the worst thing that can happen. And in our case, you know, just to give you a little

09:20bit of an overview of how we, how we set up our product, we want to help people not sell their

09:24Bitcoin. Um, and you know, on an example of, let's say a million dollar home that they want to buy,

09:28they're going to post a million dollars of Bitcoin with us. We're going to finance a hundred

09:31percent of it. So they don't actually have to put it down payment. Um, which is very significant

09:35because in that case, they don't sell any Bitcoin. They continue to own the Bitcoin. If the Bitcoin's

09:39worth more in the future, they'll benefit from, from that as well as owning the home,

09:43the home today. Um, however, you know, if the value of the Bitcoin does decline,

09:48um, 65%, they would have to post some more Bitcoin. They could reduce the loan balance,

09:53but they could do nothing. And we would just reduce the loan balance for them.

09:55Um, that aspect hasn't really changed, right? So when we started lending, Bitcoin was 40,

10:01it got down to 15. No one had to post any more collateral because of that significant amount

10:04that the collateral could drop. Now, you know, Bitcoin. Do you, let me ask you this. Do you,

10:09is there a threshold in which someone, I mean, what's the tolerance before someone would have

10:13to bring in some more capital, right? So that, so that million would turn into 350.

10:19And then they would have to post some more, um, which is much wider than and lower, right? Then,

10:24than if you were taking out a crypto loan where that number might be 25%. Um, so that gives them more

10:29time and more room. Ultimately, most of the people that we're lending to, in fact,

10:33all of the people that we're lending to, this is not the only amount of Bitcoin they have,

10:36right? They have more Bitcoin. Um, but that element of having this clarity of exactly what

10:42happens and what are the possible scenarios and how we've set it up, you know, has meant that we've

10:45been able to survive some of these periods of, of volatility. And I think in the future,

10:49if there are more periods of volatility, which, you know, I expect there to be, um, we'll be able to,

10:53to manage that appropriately and give our clients plenty of time to make the right decision for them

10:57and their families. Um, if something like that were, were to happen, because it's not our,

11:01it's not our goal given that we set up the company to help them keep their Bitcoin,

11:06to do things that would put them in a position to have to liquidate their Bitcoin, right? And get

11:11rid of their Bitcoin. Um, right. Yeah. So we're going back to the, uh, the Bitcoin adopters.

11:16That's kind of an interesting space as well, because, you know, you see people except they,

11:21they're holding on for the rest of their life. Right. And so they actively,

11:24it's relative, I guess, whenever you to, to, when you get into the crypto market or get into Bitcoin,

11:31like whenever it does dive, whenever it dives down to like earlier this year, whenever it dove down,

11:36you know, uh, in the seventies, people were, the ones that are bought in the most were overjoyed

11:42because there's an excuse for them to be able to buy more because they see that they see that value

11:48really projected out over decades. Right. Which is just not, that's, that's just a, not a normal,

11:54uh, uh, attitude of someone investing in, in, you know, in value, right. In any store of value.

12:00Yeah. Yeah. I think that I, you know, I find myself in that camp, right. You know,

12:03I've never sold anything and, you know, I don't anticipate that I'd probably sell any in my lifetime.

12:07Right. Hopefully my kids pass it on to, you know, I'll pass it on to my kids and then pass it on to

12:12their kids. Because I think that, you know, when you have something that is a finite, you know,

12:15scarce asset like Bitcoin, I think there's a lot of value. And I think that that element,

12:20um, is, is a, is a very big component to it. And, you know, I think it's an emotional aspect,

12:25right. You know, of the wealth that's been created, if you think about, you know, how it's transformed

12:30hundreds of thousands of people's lives. Um, if you think about the appreciation of Bitcoin relative

12:36to anything else they could have bought over the last 15 years, right. It doesn't even compare.

12:40So if you think about it and you say, this is the most valuable asset that you could possibly buy

12:43in your lifetime, you want to try to keep it because as long as that hasn't changed,

12:48you're going to continue to hold it. And I think that there's a lot of things where now we've been

12:52seeing in the last year that Bitcoin has become much more mainstream. It's becoming much more

12:57institutionalized. It's always been global, but now it's a different type of global player that's

13:02acquiring Bitcoin. And it definitely feels like there's not going to be enough Bitcoin for everyone.

13:07And in that situation, this is going to be a lot more valuable in the future.

13:12Right. Well, this would be a really good point to, uh, to kind of further clarify, because I,

13:17whenever, I mean, whenever you're talking about crypto, you're talking about Bitcoin primarily,

13:21but, uh, there, you know, there are other players in the space, primarily, you know,

13:25Ethereum and XRP are the big, best, big three and the clients that you're working with,

13:30are they a Bitcoin exclusive or maybe I should say, are you, do you work,

13:35does Milo work exclusively with Bitcoin or will you also work with some of the other,

13:40uh, instance, you know, key players in the, in the crypto world, but not, you know,

13:44not just the golden standard of, uh, of Bitcoin.

13:46Yeah. We, we, um, we'll lend against Bitcoin and Ethereum. Um, you know,

13:50we've got requests for other assets, right? You mentioned Ripple and Solana and, and others,

13:53right. That are out there. I think every one of those has its unique ecosystem and thinking about,

13:58you know, the people that bought into it, the people that hold it, why they hold it,

14:02what they decide to do with it. And in some of those other ecosystems, there's a much,

14:06uh, there's a different structural aspect to it, right? Whether they're proof of work or proof of

14:11stake, um, which means, uh, there might be natural decentralized lending markets for some of those

14:18ecosystems. And then if you think about Bitcoin, you know, one of the reasons why the majority of

14:22the transactions we've done in Bitcoin is that it doesn't have those aspects. So it does require you

14:27to potentially face an institution if you want to borrow, um, against it, um, like ours. So, um,

14:33that's, that's an example, right? Of, of how you access credit. Um, so Bitcoin for us is unique.

14:38Bitcoin is also the largest. Um, it's the people that basically are in a situation like I am that

14:43I want to hold this asset for a very, very, very long time. Um, and then that's, that changes the

14:48perspective, right? We're not thinking about this as, um, trading speculative, you know, if it goes up,

14:54I'm going to sell, if it goes down, I'm going to try to buy more, right? You know, we're,

14:57we're much more in the buy and hold mentality. It doesn't mean that the people that are trading

15:01don't exist in Bitcoin. They absolutely do. It just happens to people that we want to

15:05particularly work with other people that believe that they want to hold this asset for a long time.

15:09So what do you think, you know, going into 2026, what's the most exciting or, or out of left field

15:16trend that you see shaping crypto assets for home financing?

15:21Yeah. I think, I think it's the aspect of capital markets, right? So if you think about

15:25like our limitation in 22, wasn't that we didn't have individuals that wanted to buy homes, right?

15:31I think a lot of people wanted to buy homes. Um, you know, we've had over 10,000 people reach out to

15:36us and, you know, we've had lots and lots of conversations with thousands of individuals around,

15:42being able to buy a home with, with Bitcoin. And in that case, um, there hasn't been a shortage of

15:48that. What there's been a shortage of is the right type of capital to be able to do this. And you know,

15:52the conversations that I was having with capital partners in 22, it was very hard to talk to them

15:57about structurally, what does a crypto mortgage look like? What are the benefits? Why does a consumer

16:02want this? Why does this make sense from a capital markets perspective? And we found that people

16:08couldn't get past the idea of just the first question, which is what is Bitcoin? Um, so I think

16:12we've evolved from that perspective and then now you're starting to see, um, the ability for potentially

16:17banks to come into the space. Um, you know, I think that the element of having unique and a unique product

16:23and a unique value proposition and having built brand and trust and credibility matters a lot. Um, so I do

16:28think that what's exciting is that, you know, you will start to see banks potentially come into the

16:32space. The question is, how do they do that? Um, do they do it through a company like ours, uh, providing us capital so that we can

16:39scale and grow and offer this, or do they decide to lend directly? Um, I think that this year, um, has been a year of

16:45education and spending a lot of time with different institutions and getting them comfortable with it. I think

16:50next year is probably going to be the year of more adoption and more implementation. Um, where I think a lot of

16:56people this year really were focusing on, um, stable coins on the back of the, um, genius act. And I think next year, I think

17:02people will start to look at this and say, okay, how many consumers are there? Is this someone that we want to work

17:08with? Is there enough, um, stability and clarity around it, which I think there, there is, um, and is this going to be

17:15around? And the answer I think is yes. So, uh, I'm excited about all of those things coming into play next year.

17:20So is there a standardized, uh, method or practice for, uh, evaluating crypto assets for mortgage eligibility?

17:29So I think we're creating that, right? I think we are, we are looking at it, right? So I think that, you know, when you think about, you know, I

17:35mentioned, you know, what does Milo do, right? We help people not sell their Bitcoin. And the reality

17:38is that we're trying to solve customers with three distinct problems and some of them were challenges

17:42and some of them have all three, right? So one of them is, um, we know our clients don't want to sell

17:47their Bitcoin, right? Selling your Bitcoin triggers capital gains, um, you know, tax consequences, um,

17:55the element that they believe Bitcoin is going to be worth more. So it's, it's going to, it's going to

17:59continue to appreciate. So the moment you sell it, right, you don't have that. And the third is the

18:03qualifying aspect, right? So for us, what we realize is that there's a lot of individuals out

18:07there that have Bitcoin, but because it's the majority of their net worth, they may not have

18:11traditional income, you know, W2 income and things like that, that, that are essential for, um,

18:16conventional mortgage underwriting. So we had to qualify them on the basis that they do have Bitcoin

18:20and come up with a way of underwriting them alternatively. Um, so for a lot of our clients,

18:25right, we, we, we've done that for them and, and really given them the ability to, to, to potentially

18:31mitigate against all, all three and qualify. Um, I think that there are more people that are

18:36thinking about this in different ways. I think that there are certain ways of underwriting that

18:40I think will start to widen, um, the qualification aspect, but you're still going to find yourself in

18:45a situation where if you're going to ask a client to put a down payment, they're going to have to sell

18:50their Bitcoin. And I think that that for a lot of people, I think is what's kept them on the sidelines

18:54all of these years, primarily because if you would have sold your Bitcoin four years ago,

19:01that home that you bought might be worth a million dollars and today it might be worth 1.5. But if

19:06you would have kept your Bitcoin, that would be worth $5 million. Right. So I think that you don't

19:11really change that aspect. And, you know, we've built some really, really good tools to, to, to show

19:16what this looks like from a comparison perspective. And if you go back over the last 15 years, given that

19:20Bitcoin is going to appreciate it over that time, it never would have made sense for you to sell your

19:24Bitcoin to either put a down payment or to buy a home. So how do you, let me ask you this, excuse my,

19:32my lack of vocabulary, because this is not totally my sandbox that I play in, but I was talking to

19:38an LO the other day and he did his first asset depletion or crypto asset depletion loan. Right.

19:43And if I recall that his customer, they had Bitcoin and they had to transfer X amount to a wallet on

19:52Coinbase that was then verified, that amount was then verified and, and then that they proceeded.

19:59But do you, do you, does your company, do you care whether or not that crypto is on, is in cold,

20:05cold storage somewhere and then it's verified that way? Does it, must it be moved to an exchange?

20:11What can you walk me through that process and help me understand that better?

20:15Yeah. So for us, again, we, we, we, we've spoken to a lot of clients, right? Our clients have it in cold

20:19storage. They have it at Coinbase, they have it on other exchanges, they have it in different locations.

20:22Um, so depending on the type of loan and you know, how much they have, you know, we're going to verify

20:27that, right? Every amount of Bitcoin that comes through us is going to get verified on chain. We're

20:32going to look at the history of it. We're going to make sure that it looks good and everything, uh, makes

20:36sense, right? We have those tools in place. Whereas other maybe LOs that are not dealing

20:41with these customers all the time, right? They may not have those tools. They may have to rely on

20:45third-party sources to be able to do that. Um, but primarily they're underwriting it like a regular

20:50mortgage and looking at it as an asset and then being able to underwrite that. In that situation,

20:54they're probably going to have to have significantly more times of the Bitcoin because you are depleting

21:01it like a traditional asset depletion loan, right? What's unique with us is that, you know, that

21:05million dollar home will require a million dollars of Bitcoin. So we're going to require a lot less

21:12Bitcoin than you would in a traditional mortgage sense, because we are considering the Bitcoin

21:17for the underwrite aspect. Um, it is something that we did look at. I think it is something that

21:22more people are looking at doing, but again, I think you still maybe don't solve all of the elements,

21:27which is, you know, how do I come up with that down payment? How much Bitcoin do I need to have?

21:32If I need to have four or five times the amount of Bitcoin, how many people actually have that

21:36relative to the home price, right? So I think that it is a solution for some people, just like

21:41there's a lot of people that have Bitcoin that can qualify conventionally, right? They have been

21:44buying homes. It just depends who your consumer is. And I think that that's probably the biggest thing

21:48that we've realized as a company is that just because someone says they have Bitcoin, it doesn't mean

21:53that every single offering is going to work for them, right? There's going to be a lot of

21:57different types of offerings. There's going to be different ways that people attack these needs

22:01for individuals. And it just so happens that I think the customers that we work with, right?

22:05Fit the profile that we want and other people will find other things that are like asset depletion

22:10and it may work for some, right? All right. Well, how are you finding the, you mentioned the

22:17Genius Act and obviously bureaucracy is very slow to adopt any sort of change or look down the road.

22:25How do you feel the regulators are responding to this intersection of crypto and mortgage and

22:34what frameworks do you think we should continue to expect within or any new frameworks within the,

22:39in 2026? Yeah. Yeah. I think that they're learning, right? I think that now, right? The first part is

22:46saying, okay, do we, if we can't do this, should we spend any time on it? And I think that that's where we

22:51were last year. I think this year you're starting to see that push, right? I think the first big,

22:57big moment was, you know, through the first part of the summer, right? When Pulte came out and said,

23:02you know, Fannie and Freddie and the agencies, right? They need to be looking at this. We need to look at,

23:05you know, how do we qualify people? And I think that that really started to get people to, to really

23:11think about the space, you know, naturally, right? A company like Milo, that's been thinking about this for,

23:16for three years before, right? That was very exciting for us to say, okay, there are more

23:19people that are going to be thinking about this. And, you know, the, there might be new ideas that,

23:24that bubble up, right? And that people can implement. So I think that that was a, that was a big,

23:29big first, first move. Now, I think that there needs to be in my, my perspective for a lot of these

23:37ideas and, and, and, you know, things that are going to get proposed. I think we need to think about,

23:43can we create a sandbox? Can we create a safe space? Because mortgages is very, very regulated,

23:49right? Between respite and, you know, everything that came out post, post, you know, Dodd-Frank,

23:54it limits a lot of this innovation. So in order for people to find out, are there really consumers

23:59that need this? How do we think about affordability? I think lenders need to have a safe space,

24:04right? To be able to do that. Not to say that they're going to cut corners, but just the ability

24:08to find out, are there consumers and are there different ways of thinking about underwriting and

24:11qualifying? And then does it materially change things? You know, I think that when you look at

24:17secured lending, like mortgage, where you have default rates that are, you know, under 1% across

24:23most categories with really principle being recovered most of the time, right? Where losses are almost

24:28non-existent, right? As long as people are putting a down payment, right? And doing things in a certain

24:32way. The lending that happens today in mortgage is very different than the lending that happened in,

24:37you know, 2007, right? And six, right? It's, it's entirely structurally different. So everybody's

24:42very scared to go back to that, but we're nowhere, we're nowhere near that. So I think that, you know,

24:46mortgage, which is very secure, I think we could do a lot to basically push this and, and think about

24:52innovation, but it's only going to happen if, if lenders feel like they have a safe space to create that

24:57innovation. Okay. So on that, what, what misconceptions or myths do you run into about

25:06crypto in the mortgage industry that you really wish you could take a few minutes to clear up?

25:11Yeah. I think volatility, right? I mean, I think people, people think about volatility as a, as a bad

25:16thing, right? And then it's a bad word and then it's, it's, it's not a good thing, right? I think the

25:20reason why Bitcoin is appreciated is because of volatility, right? It's gone up, it's appreciated over time.

25:25So, and it cuts both ways. So then it really comes down to how you build your products and how

25:29do you mitigate around that volatility? Um, and that really becomes who's designing these,

25:35these programs, but you know, Bitcoin as itself, right? I think the volatility is a good thing,

25:38right? If you think about it in the concept of our product, right? We've, we've created a dual

25:43collateralized mortgage, right? We have the safety and, and, and, and price stability of real estate

25:48as collateral. And then we also have the benefit of Bitcoin, right? Where it is, you know,

25:5524, seven tradable at all points in time, incredibly deep liquidity, where you could

25:58basically liquidate Bitcoin if you had to at any point in time. Now real estate has deficiencies,

26:02right? It is not liquid, right? It's the opposite, right? So if you think about what we've created is

26:06that we've taken the best of both properties and put them into one product. And now you actually have

26:12a very different risk profile, right? From, from, from that asset. So I think that that aspect of saying,

26:17well, volatility is a bad thing is, is probably the biggest misconception that you can take that

26:21volatility and turn it into something that is very positive, um, and, and structuring a product.

26:27Right. And also there's just like the, the micro versus the macro view as well. I, I, uh, well,

26:32I told you like half-heartedly as a joke, I mean, there's a real story about me getting into Bitcoin

26:39very, very early and then just being an idiot about it and, you know, not replenishing my wallet and

26:44walking away from it 10, 12 years later. So I re-entered, unfortunately, much later than I wanted to,

26:49but I've, the, the community, like we talked about as well, is just an interesting community to, to,

26:56follow, kind of be a fly on the wall. And anytime the, every time that a, a naysayer, a crypto or

27:04specifically a Bitcoin naysayer will start looking at the volatility and the price drops. And it's,

27:09it's always like the first or second comment is just zoom out. Yeah. Yeah. Just zoom out.

27:13Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, you could go back and you could say, okay, well,

27:17you know, you look at a, one of the best performing stocks, right. Over that,

27:21over that same period of time, which was Nvidia. Right. And if you look at it and you say, okay,

27:24well, Nvidia didn't go up into the right the whole time. Right. It had lots of volatility. It had lots

27:29of periods of drawdown and those drawdowns present opportunities for people to buy at lower prices.

27:33Right. So like right now, right. Bitcoin is sold off given where we felt we were in April and May this

27:40year. I don't think any of us would have thought that we might be able to pick up more Bitcoin somewhere in the,

27:45you know, 80s, right. 80,000 range, right. 85,000, right. That looked like that wasn't going to happen

27:49because everybody was talking about, you know, 250, 500 K Bitcoin, $1 million Bitcoin. So in a way, right.

27:56That volatility is actually going to give me an opportunity to many other people to buy more Bitcoin, right.

28:00At these levels. And that's, what's going to allow us to hopefully build more wealth for, for our families.

28:05Um, so, you know, you just have to look at the volatility, right. You never, I'm not planning on

28:09selling. I don't have a sell price, but I do have a buy price. And as it goes down, right. I can, I can

28:14buy. Right. So I think these are the things where, um, you know, people analyze a Bitcoin market or they

28:20don't know enough about it. And they say certain things because that's, what's been, um, potentially

28:24mentioned to them, or there was some so-called expert, right. That said that, but I think that most people,

28:29if they do spend time, they do spend time, uh, talking to people that have Bitcoin, I think

28:34they'll be very, very impressed with the quality of the people that are in the space and why they own

28:38Bitcoin and the rationale. And I think that that time in that education, I think is what allows you

28:42to build conviction that this is a very good asset to hold for the long run. Okay. So let's spend a

28:49little bit of time on that type of person, those people in the, in the community. The last time that

28:55you were, that you spoke with Clayton, you referenced the people that you were working

29:00with at the time, back in 2022, they weren't, they weren't people that were just now getting

29:05into Bitcoin. They had gotten into Bitcoin, I don't know, eight or 10 years prior, really built

29:11up their, their, their wealth by holding, getting at that lower price point. Now, a couple of years later,

29:18and as we've seen Bitcoin continue to value, continue to rise, the customers that you're working

29:23with now, are they still people that entered the market super, super early? There's been,

29:28you know, just even through altcoins, right? There's been a lot of people that made over the

29:32past couple of years, made millions of dollars, hundreds of thousands of dollars off of altcoins,

29:37and then transferred, sold off and transferred all that to, to Bitcoin are now holding, you know,

29:43quite a bit, a large bag of, of Bitcoin. So are you starting to see more clients that entered into the

29:49market over the last five, six years, or that made their money in altcoins, and then transferred

29:54that over? I think that remains consistent, right? I think a lot of our clients bought Bitcoin 10 years

29:58ago, right? They bought $10,000 of Bitcoin. And that today is worth somewhere between, you know,

30:04three to seven, $8 million, right? Depending on how much they bought, how much they kept, right? All of

30:08that. So I would say that those are the individuals that, that we tend to work with. However,

30:15we have started to see that more people recently that didn't buy Bitcoin early have been getting

30:20their exposure to Bitcoin and buying larger amounts of Bitcoin, primarily through the ETFs,

30:26and spending some time there and, you know, and buying IBIT and, and allocating more of their

30:31portfolio. And, you know, the ones that started buying that, you know, last year, right, that's

30:34appreciated nicely for them, which has helped them to build conviction to allocate more of their

30:38net worth. So I think this next phase of people that are going to be buying Bitcoin primarily because of

30:43what is now I pushed by more of the private banking space, where I was at Morgan Stanley and Goldman

30:50Sachs previously at those banks, right, they finally came around and saying, you know, individuals need

30:55to allocate one to 4% of their portfolios into Bitcoin. So I think, you know, that is something

31:01that we're keeping an eye on, that you're starting to see more people that are allocating to it. And if,

31:06you know, we do get to these numbers where Bitcoin is 250, 500, a million or more, you're going to find

31:12that those people that basically bought that, right, they're going to have a lot and they're

31:15not, they're not buying $50,000 a Bitcoin, right? Some of these individuals are buying 250,

31:19500,000 dollars. So that might be worth, you know, 5, 10, 15 million dollars out on the road,

31:25even though for a lot of people feel that they got in very late, it doesn't feel like it's late,

31:30right? If you believe that you can still make, you know, 5, 10, 15, 20 X right over the next 10 years,

31:36anything, right? I would, I would challenge anyone to find something like that with the level of

31:42conviction and, you know, the facts of Bitcoin, um, to allocate, which is again, why I think we're

31:47seeing people allocating larger amounts for initial buys than, than maybe some of the individuals that,

31:52that bought $10,000 of Bitcoin 10 years ago. So maybe there's even greater conviction today,

31:57right? Right. Right. Uh, well, so I, let's get some advice for, uh, two levels for both the lender

32:08and for, uh, the, the home buyer, or perhaps for an LO talking to a home buyer. If you had to advise

32:14a traditional lender, that's just beginning to consider, uh, this, this space and add this to

32:20their, let's say this, their, to their product portfolio, what steps should they take to prepare

32:25both internally and with their outside partnerships. For people that are getting into Bitcoin,

32:30I always advise them to just buy a little bit of Bitcoin by a very small amount of Bitcoin,

32:34right? Something again, it doesn't have to be tens of thousands of dollars, right? Buy a hundred dollars

32:37of Bitcoin. Um, the reason why I think that's important is because as you buy Bitcoin, you start

32:42to track it, you start to watch it, you start to psychologically think about it, right? Even if it's

32:47a small amount, but now it's, and now it's a line item, right? That you're thinking about,

32:50um, that helps you to get educated because then you start to spend more time. You start to listen to

32:54things on X and spaces and you join, you know, different communities that have it. And then now

32:59you start to get familiar with it. So now you start to understand who is the consumer that you

33:03potentially might be working with and understand what are their sensitivities, because now you become

33:07one of them, even if it's not a lot. So I think that that part's very, very important. And I've seen

33:11that with my team, people that came from traditional banking, and then they got a little bit of exposure

33:16and then they spent more time and more time and more time. And then, you know, that's how you build up

33:20conviction. So I think it's very important that, um, you think about this consumer set, um, in that

33:27way and learn about them, right? And learn, learn what they want. Then you can give them the proper

33:30advice. And sometimes, you know, we find ourselves that, you know, the individual doesn't need a crypto

33:35mortgage, right? They have plenty of other assets that, um, this isn't the best solution for them and

33:41that we're not necessarily trying to push something on them, right? We're just trying to help customers.

33:45So I think that that, that first part of understanding the customer is really important.

33:48And the second part, right, is trying to figure out what are the offerings that are out there,

33:52right? What is a crypto loan? What is a crypto mortgage? Um, what are some of these other things

33:56that are coming along, right? And, and really getting familiar with the product set and then

34:00understanding why would a consumer choose one over the other? And then what are the things that are

34:06important, right? In our case, like we understand that trust and credibility and brand is incredibly

34:11important because people are posting, you know, this collateral, which is Bitcoin that they haven't

34:17moved maybe ever to us. They have to really trust the company. So understanding that, whereas maybe

34:24traditionally an LO is just thinking about pushing a product and then eventually someone else is going

34:28to own it. Someone else is going to have it. And, but they're not really, they're really trusting

34:32paper. They're not really having to post a lot of, you know, they're not posting their capital,

34:36right? This is not a collateralized loan from that sense. So, you know, understanding these nuances,

34:41I think is really, really important. And I think that's going to allow them to be able to give

34:44good advice and, and, and get the customers into the right product.

34:49How do you think those, the traditional process and from the referral process and the conversations

34:55is, you know, mainly, uh, you know, a realtor, generally speaking, big picture, you know, a realtor is

35:01going to refer a customer to an LO. Then they'll have that initial conversation and learn a little bit

35:07about them. And then, you know, these, it's either what you're eligible for, or if you've got great

35:11credit, good, good, you know, good DTI, then these are the products that are most beneficial for you.

35:17And, and then you kind of go from there, right? Do you foresee in the, in the near future that just,

35:23you know, the, the crypto conversation or the Bitcoin conversation, uh, the wallet situation,

35:29such a situation or conversation just being integrated into that initial conversation that you have

35:35with clients or a traditional, you know, referral, uh, process like right now are using with your

35:41clients or does it seem that clients are coming to you or, or, or from your context in the industry,

35:47are clients coming to lenders saying like, Hey, I want to do this as opposed to lenders advising

35:53clients, Hey, you should consider this. Does that, does that make sense? Yeah, it does. I think that's

35:57a great question, right? Cause it's one that we ask ourselves all the time, right? So if we say,

36:01okay, well, are there LOs out there, right? Are you asking the question, right? Which is where we

36:05started, right? The reason why we found out that there was a need for this is because we started

36:08asking our clients, do you have, do you have Bitcoin? Do you have other assets, right? What

36:12does this look like? And three years ago, the answer was why, right? I I I've been turned down.

36:19I can't qualify. I actually don't tell people that I have this. Whereas today, right? If the

36:24conversation is different and I think the world is in a different place where now people can look at

36:28it and say, no, this actually is an asset. I do want to disclose this. I do want to tell you about

36:32it if it's going to get me qualified or if it's going to give me better terms. Um, so I think

36:36that that, that's probably the first, the first movement, right? Is for the LO to be able to ask

36:41those questions and then decide, does that make sense? Um, you know, I think what's unique about

36:46Milo is, is because, you know, we really have the benefit of being the first mover, right? There's a lot

36:51of things that is, that, um, there's a lot of data. There's a lot of articles, there's a lot of great

36:55podcasts like this one, um, that are out there where people can, you know, follow our, our story and our

37:00track record and, and be able to sort of, um, you know, think about how, how we, how we've operated

37:06as a company. Whereas for an LO that's just getting into the space, they may not have that.

37:10Um, but asking those questions, right? Getting educated, understanding all those parts. I think

37:14that that's, what's going to distinguish whether that, um, client is going to want to tell them

37:20about their Bitcoin or not. Um, because, you know, if you ask someone and say here, well,

37:26you haven't really talked about this asset, right? You're not going to necessarily go to every

37:29client and say, you know, do you have Bitcoin, right? Do you have this? Like, how do you,

37:33how do you do it in a way, right? It's a little bit of like, you know, even if you're a financial

37:36advisor, you generally, you meet someone and you're not going to ask them right away. Here,

37:39tell me, tell me all your assets, tell me everything that you have. Right. So.

37:42Right.

37:43I think it's kind of,

37:44If they're wearing a Robert Braidlove t-shirt or their avatar is a little like electric,

37:48the electric LOs or something, you probably, that's probably a green line.

37:51Yeah, maybe. Yeah, exactly. But I mean, like we, we're not all like tattooed with like, you know,

37:55Bitcoin, right? So it's one of those things where I think it, it should be the, that's,

38:02I think it happens already where people and LOs and good LOs try to understand who their customers

38:07are, try to understand what their situation is. Right. They have good ways of asking questions

38:11and getting comfortable with them and doing their process. Right. To, to see what, what is the right,

38:15the right fit. But I think that we're definitely in a world where I think those conversations

38:19should be part of the process. So what's it moved into it? What's a common mistake that you see

38:26buyers and lenders make when it comes to either evaluating crypto, having that conversation?

38:33And how, how would you recommend that they avoid it? To avoid the conversation or to, or to have it.

38:38Oh, the mistake. What's the, what's the biggest mistake that you see both home buyers and, and,

38:43or lenders making? Is it not having that conversation? I think so. I think so. I think,

38:48I think it's not having the conversation. I think it's the assumption that, um,

38:56and I think that's changing, right? The assumption that it doesn't matter in the process,

38:59meaning it's not going to qualify them. It's not going to help them. I think that that part of

39:02saying, no, this could actually help. So I should try to find out, um, you know, the companies that

39:07are offering these programs and then try to, try to get educated from that side. But I think, I think,

39:12yeah, that, I think we're going to enter a world where

39:15this will help some customers that may not qualify qualify. And I think that might be the difference.

39:21Now, the question is, do they have a program? Do they have something that can fit that has some

39:28crypto aspect to it where they can offer it? Or does that client just end up going somewhere else,

39:32right? And working with someone that, that does offering?

39:34Well, what about the, the disruptors like FinTech, you know, founders and innovators that are looking

39:40to, you know, make waves in this space and this intersection of, of technology and digital assets

39:47and mortgages and real estates. If they're looking to enter into these waters, what, what skills or

39:55qualities do you think are essential for, for, for them to be successful beyond, but obviously you need

40:01to have some Bitcoin or you have to own some crypto just to kind of know that world a little

40:05bit, but beyond that, what else would you recommend?

40:07Yeah. I think that, you know, in a category like mortgage, right? It's, it's, it's very complicated

40:11because there's a lot of pieces, right? There is, you know, the technical piece to build great

40:15technology and user experience. There is the aspect of capital markets, right? How do you finance

40:19yourself? And then there's the regulatory compliance and legal, right? That's, that's a big piece of it.

40:24You know, I think that people that are looking at the space, right? They, they say, well, it's very easy.

40:28I'm just going to do mortgages. I'm just going to give money to people. Well, it's not until you start

40:31to figure out all the different pieces that go into that, that you realize how complicated

40:37it truly is. And then the assumption that, you know, sometimes to build some of these great

40:41companies, it actually takes much longer to, to be able to do that. So I think that for a lot of

40:46people, it's like focusing on the areas where they think they may have an expertise or a unique insight

40:51building there. And then, you know, as time evolves, right, you, you continue to take on more

40:55of the overall process because it's very easy to just say, I'm just going to do this. And, you know,

40:59I think we were, we were naive like that. Right. And we said here, we're going to let the international

41:04clients and we're going to build technology, and we're going to do this in 24 hours, and this is

41:08going to be the best experience. And, and then we realized that there was all these other components

41:12that we didn't really understand that well and, and, and had to get, had to get first in them. And,

41:17and I think that that meant that we just had to have this element of persevering and trying new

41:22things and being okay with, with being wrong, but then continuing to, to try one more thing,

41:26one more thing, one more thing. And I think that, you know, we're finally at that point where I think

41:30that one more thing has led into something that we've created, that is unique, that we've gotten

41:34to the point where we are the difference between potentially someone buying a home and not, you know,

41:40it's, it's that significant. And I think that that part of being able to build something that

41:45is not just three to 5% better or more efficient, but three to five times better, or even, even better,

41:54you know, something that, that couldn't happen unless you existed. So, you know, having a really,

41:58really high bar where you're focusing your energy that, you know, that it's a, it's a structural seismic

42:03change and not just something that's just a little bit better. Cause I think you see a lot of that in,

42:07in real estate and fintech is I'm just going to make this a little faster. Well, I'm just going to

42:12charge a little less for this, or I'm going to do that. And, and that's not enough to stand out

42:16in the market. I got, I have one last question for me, and this is a little bit out of left field. I,

42:21I thought about this a while back when I heard the news and then in my workout this morning,

42:27there was a video that popped up on YouTube. And so I'm, and I'm, I'm really stretching the limits of

42:34my understanding on this. So again, bear with me if you will. But you know, a lot of the initial

42:40concern is still to this day, uh, between crypto transactions and it is the security,

42:46right. And that if you, but the reality of the situation is that those, uh, those transactions are

42:52in many, in many ways more secure than, uh, than a, a traditional financial transaction.

42:58But then a Google developed or just unleashed, created a few months back, the super, well,

43:06it was later, but this previously, uh, over in 2025, at some point earlier this year,

43:11supercomputer and, or the quantum super quantum computer. So quantum computing that because part

43:18of the, the, the, the value prop of, of Bitcoin is that it's quote unquote unhackable, right. And

43:25some of the reports from what quantum computing can do. And when I hear this stuff, like I said,

43:31it just, it makes me feel like a child. Cause I just don't, I really don't understand it. Even

43:36in an abstract way, it's difficult for me to wrap my mind around that power and the problem solving

43:42and the computation. I just, I just can't get there. But one of the things that has come out of that

43:48over the past six months or so is that when quantum computing is released into the world, uh, then,

43:55you know, even Bitcoin, which is supposed to be the most secure, the most unhackable, uh, thing,

44:01right. Is done for, right. That can be hacked. Are there any concerns? It's just to me, it's like,

44:07well, at that point, if anything and everything is, uh, is, is hackable, that it's just, it's kind of

44:12the wild west. Are there concerns in the community or on your side about that? Is there like foresight

44:18on where that's going to go? Yeah. Yeah. And am I wrong? Am I just totally, am I making an idiot of

44:24myself? No, I think, I think that's, that's a, that's a great question. I think it's the most

44:27pressing question right now for anything in the crypto ecosystem, um, primarily because we know

44:34quantum computing exists, right. You know, there are these super computers, again, there are very

44:39few of them in the world today, but as the technology continues to evolve, right. There, there will be

44:44more powerful computers and maybe at some point in the future. Um, I think as it relates specifically

44:49to Bitcoin, right, from us, it's a very important question because again, that is our collateral,

44:53right. And, and, and how we think about that. Um, now I think there is a number of misconceptions

44:58though, around it, um, primarily saying that just because this exists and instantly everything is

45:03going to be hackable and things are going to move the element of hacking, right. You know, if you think

45:07about Bitcoin itself, right, there's 21, there's going to be 21 million, right. There's been roughly,

45:11you know, a little over 19 million, right. That have been mined. The last one will be mined, you know,

45:16well after we are, we are gone from, from, from, from this planet. Um, is that just because it moves,

45:23it loses value. So I think that's number one misconception, right. If someone can move and hack

45:29it and they can move your Bitcoin to somewhere else. Okay. They can move your Bitcoin. It doesn't mean

45:33that it's depreciated value. It just means that it's technically it's moved right from one wallet to the

45:38other. Um, so that's the first misconception. The second misconception is, is that basically all Bitcoin could be

45:44hacked. The reality is that the, where there's the most vulnerability are older wallets that have not

45:50been moved. So that's the second misconception. And that's a very, very small percentage. So again,

45:56not all Bitcoin. The third is there are things that can be done to increase the level of encryption and

46:02other elements that could make it again, very much or near not impossible, but very, very, very difficult,

46:09even for a supercomputer, right. And a quantum computer to be able to do that. Um, so there's a lot of very

46:14smart people out there because again, right. Bitcoin is a $2 trillion asset class where there's a lot of

46:20people that are very sensitive. So I think you have some of the smartest people on the planet right

46:23now thinking about some of these aspects. Um, and I think things will be released in some period of

46:28time. If you told me quantum computing, uh, could do this tomorrow. Right. I think there would be some

46:34difficulties again, but primarily older wallets. Um, but not everybody would be, would be impacted.

46:40The majority of people would not be, would not be impacted. Right. Um, because of that, that, that

46:44little level of encryption that already exists now passing on that aspect, the things that we highlight,

46:49right. A lot of the systems that we use for banking and for other elements to run on similar levels of

46:55encryption. Right. So it really puts us in a situation where essentially all of society and all of the level of

47:00encryption would be vulnerable. The question is what is probably the best place to leverage that

47:06vulnerability? It may not be Bitcoin. It might be other places. So that's what I was going to say.

47:11Like if, if, if, if time and money resources are being spent on using a quantum computer to hack Bitcoin,

47:18I mean, why wouldn't that, that resource, those resources and that time be spent

47:23hacking and accessing far more accessible. Absolutely. There's so many more sensitive

47:28systems, right. That you would probably, you know, extract a greater amount of, you know,

47:33utility and value from than necessarily Bitcoin. Um, you know, I was at a conference a couple of weeks

47:39ago and, uh, actually a couple, about a month ago in LA, and we were talking a lot about, you know,

47:44quantum and the impact around it. And I realized like, if you had the ability to do this,

47:48where would you implement this and where would you spend your time doing this? And you had it,

47:53would you just naturally say, okay, we have this. And then everybody would know when everything would

47:58be hacked at once. Or would you do this in a way where you would just siphon off a little bit into

48:02some of these dormant wallets, right. That haven't moved, that there isn't there. And if you had the

48:05ability to do it, you would just do it. And no one would really notice. Yeah. That's like the old,

48:09uh, the old office space hack, right? Yeah, yeah, exactly. Right. Do it, do it in small amounts. So

48:13again, it doesn't feel like it's something that would benefit anyone to say, okay, this is widely, but, uh,

48:18from our perspective, you know, I think that, um, it's not that it isn't something that could happen.

48:23I think it can happen. I think there's just a lot of things that would need to happen for it to be,

48:27you know, catastrophic. Uh, and I think that, you know, we'd be in that situation where I think a lot

48:31of other things would, would also be incredibly vulnerable. And I think that that's why people are

48:36taking this, um, threat primarily with, you know, the advancement of AI and everything else that's been

48:42happening, um, pretty seriously, I would say. Right. So I think that, you know, we will have

48:48solutions and patches and upgrades and things like that. Right. Um, to that. And, you know,

48:52the networks that are more centralized, um, in the crypto space will probably be able to do some of

48:57these upgrades, um, sooner, um, on, on a wider scale, right. Like Ethereum or other networks,

49:03right. They can fork their, their network, whereas something like Bitcoin, where no one control is,

49:08controls it, and it's truly decentralized, that might be a little bit more challenging. So they're

49:11going to probably need different types of, um, work around, right. To be able to solve for this.

49:15But, um, I'm fairly confident that, that, that the broader, um, industry is going to be able to

49:20figure it out. Excellent. All right. Well, Joseph, thank you so much for, uh, lending us your time.

49:25Uh, this is a great conversation. Very, very interesting. And, and thank you for, uh,

49:28thank you for teaching me. Absolutely. Thank you for having me. Enjoyed it very much as well.

Mainstream, not meme-coins: Inside the rise of crypto-backed home financing

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