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00:00You want us to know about Keir and Kelly?
00:05Over the years in prison, I've met a few serial killers.
00:10First you have the state one serial killer.
00:13Quiet and a loner.
00:15Doesn't mix with the others.
00:17Then you have the happy-go-lucky killer.
00:20Laughs and jokes as it gives them an audience.
00:25This is how Mr. Kelly lived his life in prison.
00:30Was the underground once stalked by a serial killer
00:37who pushed people from tube platforms to their deaths
00:40and then got away with it?
00:42Kelly's crime area was immense.
00:49Kelly could have pushed somebody under a train in East London
00:53and been back in Clapham in two hours
00:57and back in the churchyard.
00:59Nobody would have known.
01:05Alright Kelly.
01:06How many people did you get killed altogether?
01:11He talks about another one and another one and another one.
01:15And you suddenly say to yourself,
01:17what the hell have I got here?
01:19Did you know that the stuff that you were giving Mickey Dan was going to kill him then?
01:23Or did you hope it would?
01:24You hoped that it would?
01:25No.
01:26It's not going to kill him.
01:27It's not going to kill him.
01:28It's not going to kill him.
01:29It's not going to kill him.
01:30It's not going to kill him.
01:31It's not going to kill him.
01:32This litany of confessions.
01:33And I'm pulling him.
01:34Turn it in.
01:35This was the era of Peter Sutcliffe, Dennis Nielsen.
01:36Because for this one, I've been missing to this one.
01:38Kelly's...
01:39North of that.
01:40I'm going to put that down then.
01:42What's that down there?
01:43That's seven now.
01:44The cops thought that they may well be in the presence of Britain's most prolific serial killer.
01:49It doesn't fit the profile of somebody who's homeless and an alcoholic.
01:54They come across as a nobody.
01:56But yet, in that interview room, he's well able to exert his own arrogance.
02:01All right, Kelly.
02:03How many people do you think you killed altogether?
02:06Oh, Jesus.
02:07I fucking know, honestly.
02:09Who's in the picture?
02:11Was there an endgame?
02:12You see, you're playing a game with this guy.
02:15You're laughing again.
02:16You're playing...
02:17I mean, we talked to him for what?
02:18Best part of two hours.
02:20The ring was nothing to do with killing the man in the...
02:23No.
02:24No.
02:25For season, the ring comes into his head.
02:26I want the ring back.
02:28No, you can't have it.
02:29And he flips.
02:32No, really, that doesn't matter.
02:34It's the truth.
02:36Yeah, you got the truth as far as I'm concerned.
02:38The story kicks off in August 1983, when Kelly is arrested in Clapham, London, for stealing a gold ring.
03:03The police foolishly put him in a cell with other drunks.
03:16It was about quarter past five.
03:18I was deciding to have an early night, so I walked down the stairs to go out, and just as I got outside in the yard, a constable ran out, governor, governor, quick, quick, down the cells.
03:31Send me down the cells, and there was Boyd on his back.
03:46He'd been carotid with a pair of socks.
03:49Kelly is sitting there in the corner, and no socks on.
03:53I'm not a great detective, but I could work that one out.
03:59We had a murder.
04:01We had a murder.
04:02On the news, they said there's been someone murdered, or someone has died in the cells at Clapham, and someone has been arrested for it.
04:16I got into work, and half-jokingly said to my assistant, I wonder whether Ciaran has anything to do with that.
04:25When he went with a bullet from a gun, if the fuse was lit, and Kelly, it was going all the way, and there was no bounds to the violence that he would use.
04:36I've got on better than I've got on with some other people.
04:40He asked me to bring in a kebab, I seem to remember it was.
04:44It was a kebab shop next door, so I used to get him a kebab every time and bring it in.
04:55I'm Ian Browne.
05:04Today, this is 1983.
05:06I broke the subject of G702 for a new tape.
05:15By 1983, the British had begun to record interviews with suspects.
05:21One tape has survived of Ciaran Kelly's final interview in custody.
05:27It's the confession of an Irish serial killer in his own words.
05:32It takes you back into the interview room.
05:46Let's go through a few things again. We've got no objections.
05:49The longer you can keep up, the more you'll see something.
05:54Do you remember, yesterday afternoon, I came down to the cell, and I showed you a photograph?
06:00Not a good guy, but I was always lucky.
06:03And I was lucky to be the one that wanted him to talk to that day, because...
06:09He taught.
06:10This chair here.
06:16Yeah, just round the back of that, okay?
06:19Now sit down there.
06:20Can I have a light, please?
06:21Of course you can.
06:24How are you, Kelly?
06:26Alright.
06:28Do you want a cup of tea?
06:29A cup of tea? Coffee?
06:30We're done for my dinner. A cup of tea, please.
06:31A cup of tea.
06:32A sugar?
06:33Sure, please.
06:34Sit down, Kelly, I'll go through it.
06:39I know the circumstances, and what I want to do is I want to go through a few things of you again, if you've got no objections.
06:45He said he's in charge here.
06:46No, he is in charge.
06:48There's no other station in charge. You're from Brixton.
06:51Which is the one?
06:52Kelly, let me just tell you what it is, okay? Mr. Brown is in charge of this police station.
06:55I'm in charge of the whole area, which includes this police station.
06:59Yeah.
07:00Alright?
07:01Yeah.
07:02Speaking to us off, I'm just explaining it to you.
07:04You know the ranking?
07:05Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
07:06It doesn't affect it, because what we're both after is the truth.
07:09You've got the truth, as far as I'm concerned.
07:12We have.
07:13So, do you mind if we go through it, just a few points again?
07:16Ah, just the points.
07:18Okay.
07:19Fair enough.
07:22We're both after is the truth.
07:24Yeah, you've got the truth, as far as I'm concerned.
07:26We have.
07:27And do you mind if we go through it?
07:28When we started talking about what he'd done before, I said to him, where did it all start then?
07:35When did all this violence start?
07:38I said, Coronation, 1953.
07:41The next station is Baker Street.
07:58Kelly grew up in Dublin and first moved to London around the time of the coronation in 1953.
08:05He travelled with a friend, Christy Smith.
08:11But the truth turned sour and led to Kelly's first killing.
08:16He said, we came down, whipped down to London from Liverpool with two prostitutes.
08:23I said, who's we? He said, me and Christy Smith.
08:26All right then, Mr. Brown's going to ask you about Christy Smith and go over that again.
08:36Yeah, it's interesting, Kelly, that when you talk to us, you usually come back to Christy Smith because that's where it all started.
08:42Yeah, that's it. That's the one that I would have never mentioned. None of the fuckers want to focus.
08:49Yeah, you really want to get Christy Smith in your mind, don't you?
08:52I want to get them all in your mind.
08:54Right, but that's the first. That's the big one.
08:56Well, that's the one that started me panicking like, you know, I don't mean panicking like to run.
09:03Yeah, is that what started you on the drink as well or were you already on it?
09:06I was on it, but I was able to hold it. In other words, I was able to come out of the money in my pockets.
09:11So you were a drinking as opposed to an alcoholic?
09:14Yeah.
09:15And when did Christy, obviously that played on your mind a lot, yeah?
09:21It played on your mind.
09:24It was Queen's coronation. He said, we went down to Baker Street tube station.
09:31Christy started taking the piss out of me and telling me I was gay because I didn't want to sleep with one of the women.
09:37He said, so I, I, I pushed him onto a train.
09:47I said, you killed him? Oh yeah.
09:52I said, and that's what started you on. He said,
09:58I said, well, why are you telling me this now? He said, well,
10:01I caught bang the rights.
10:04You got me for the one in the cell.
10:07I can't get out of that.
10:09So I thought I might as well clear them all up.
10:13What you're telling is that it's been playing on your mind for some
10:18You caught bang the rights of Boyd.
10:19You know there's no way out of that.
10:21You then decide to come clean and tell us all the truth.
10:23And that is right, is it?
10:24That's right.
10:26He didn't worry anymore after that.
10:29If he wanted to kill somebody, he'd kill somebody.
10:32And you get away with it.
10:33And the more you get away with it, the more it doesn't matter when you do it.
10:36And when you do Christie, obviously, obviously that played in your mind a lot, yeah?
10:43Played in my mind.
10:44And every time I'd see, when I came back here and there'd be some trouble,
10:49I'd see a lot zipping up.
10:50And then I'd start thinking about it.
10:52What? They're going to you for that?
10:53Yeah.
10:55How do you feel?
10:57How do you feel when you do this?
10:58Does a lot go through?
10:59Or don't you care anymore?
11:01It doesn't worry me.
11:03It doesn't worry?
11:04No.
11:05Do you think I'm going to do a murder?
11:07No.
11:08Just say, I go out of here in the mail, right?
11:10Yeah, yeah.
11:11Then there'd be nothing in my head.
11:12Or if I was at the tube station waiting on a train and someone comes over arguing,
11:17I'd get up and walk away.
11:19Because now I'm clear of them.
11:21But at that time I wasn't.
11:23Okay, Kelly, what you're telling us now is because you want to get more clear.
11:26Yeah.
11:27Right.
11:28And why should you tell us now?
11:29Because I'm in for this one.
11:30I've admitted to this one.
11:31They're in it.
11:32For Boyd in the service?
11:33I wouldn't mention any of them, only I'm for the one down here in that street.
11:37And because you've been caught for a straight one, you are admitting all the others?
11:41Yeah.
11:42You put yourself in white shoes, right?
11:47Yeah.
11:48I'm captured.
11:51Right?
11:52It's on...
11:53On top ship.
11:55It's plenty of times.
11:57After the murder of Christy Smith, Kelly went home to Dublin.
12:11To keep a low profile.
12:13But it didn't last.
12:15Kelly was back where it all started.
12:18It seems in the early years when Kelly was back here in the late 50s and even into the
12:26early mid 60s, you know, Kelly is keeping his nose clean, working in construction, building
12:32a life for himself.
12:33I was a builder.
12:34People used to buy houses and we used to run in it.
12:35For electrical work.
12:36We'd done a lot.
12:37Kelly was young and strong and got casual work as a builder's navi.
12:54But Booz was the real boss.
12:59When he wasn't working, he spent his time drinking in parks and graveyards with other homeless
13:05men.
13:06That's probably how I met him.
13:12I didn't know anything about him until particularly I was on a job in Ballam at the street.
13:17I was renovating a house.
13:19And we had a skip delivered.
13:21And the racket started up behind me.
13:23Through his foot.
13:24There was a guy boxing the hoarding.
13:26And when I say boxing, it was actually a hit bull.
13:29But it wasn't just tapping to that with me.
13:32But our eyes made contact.
13:34So he came down inside me.
13:36Fist clenched red face.
13:38Have you ready to walk?
13:40I said, can you fill the skip?
13:41Yes.
13:42I said, we'll be here today to talk in the morning.
13:43Flicked me cigarette way.
13:44I walked into the house.
13:45Thinking he's going to fall.
13:46But he didn't decide.
13:47But when I seen the hoarding.
13:49I got his hair combed back.
13:52But this man was totally different to you and me.
13:55Jekyll and Hyde.
13:57And we finished our job a little bit late in Vox.
14:00And as I was passing the road drop in the two lessons with me,
14:02I got the concerto today.
14:04I'd forgotten about him.
14:05So I went down to the job.
14:06And there he's sitting outside the job.
14:07And this is a quarter past six.
14:09But the sky was full.
14:10And he had more on top than he'd in it.
14:12I couldn't believe it.
14:14When I went down to that house, it was cleaner than this pub.
14:18And part of the garden cleaned up.
14:20And everything was in the sky.
14:22I thought I'd hit the jackpot here.
14:24That old first.
14:25First meet with him.
14:26And he was a good worker.
14:27I'd give him his due.
14:28He was a good worker.
14:29If you could bank the rights, you mean?
14:32Bank the rights.
14:33What do you do?
14:34Will you tell me?
14:36Kelly had been arrested for stealing a gold ring.
14:40It was a routine case.
14:42Nothing special at first.
14:44But a moment of violence from Kelly
14:49exploded a caveworms for the British police.
14:52What the f***er?
14:54Why did you do it?
14:56For somebody to be actually murdered inside the cell
14:59is very, very unusual.
15:01Really it was the start of the most bizarre
15:05case I've ever come across.
15:08Right, you said, you said,
15:11one had burned somebody somewhere to death.
15:13Alright?
15:14Or somebody was burned in a skipper.
15:16Good morning, Clap and Common.
15:18Clap and Common.
15:19I remember them going up their cunts.
15:21Yeah?
15:22Was that you?
15:23What?
15:24Was that you?
15:25You're rubbing your hands.
15:26Was that you?
15:27No.
15:28Did you do that?
15:29What?
15:30Did you do...
15:31Well put that down then.
15:32Hush that down there.
15:33That's eleven now.
15:35Put it down.
15:36Hm?
15:41Was that you?
15:42Huh?
15:43Was that you?
15:44You're rubbing your hands.
15:45Was that you?
15:48Kelly's case was just totally bizarre and unique.
15:52Out of a little tutney-hapney robbery of a ring and a watch from an old guy comes this amazing story.
16:04I don't know about that.
16:05I don't know.
16:06You're being handsome.
16:07Well this is the last time...
16:08This is...
16:09So let's...
16:10We'll just finish like that, Kelly.
16:12Yeah.
16:13Just a quick encounter.
16:14For some reason...
16:16Kelly would jump up and decide to do...
16:19Shadow boxing.
16:23Shout out Barry McGuigan.
16:24Barry McGuigan.
16:25And then he'd sit down again.
16:27It was so bizarre but...
16:29That memory only came back to me when I listened to that tape.
16:32Well this is just going to take my hand.
16:33Who says...
16:34Who says...
16:35Who says...
16:36Who says...
16:37Who says...
16:38Who says...
16:39Who says...
16:40Who says...
16:41Who says...
16:42Who says...
16:44Who says...
16:45Where says...
16:46Josh...
16:47All right, Kelly.
16:48How many people do you think you've killed...
16:49I don't fucking know!
16:50Honestly.
16:51I don't...
16:52Right.
16:53Well this is probably the last time we're going to talk.
16:55Right?
16:56So let's just...
16:57We'll just finish it up, Kelly.
16:58Right?
16:59Just sit down.
17:00A quick count up in your head about how many you think you killed,
17:05how many you think you might have killed, and how many you're sure you killed.
17:09How many are you sure you killed? 100% positive.
17:13Name them for me, the ones that you definitely killed.
17:18So you met him in the churchyard at Tooting, was it?
17:21I was in the churchyard at Tooting, was it?
17:23This whole kind of murder admission flows from Kelly.
17:27He says he poisoned a man called Mickey Dunn in 1982 in Tooting.
17:31So I killed him. You killed him there and then.
17:35He pushed Jock Gordon, another homeless street drinker, in front of a tube train.
17:40The same year, he pushed another man, Francis Taylor, in front of a tube train.
17:45In the 70s, he said he kicked the man to death in Shepherd's Bush,
17:49stabbed somebody else down in Bournemouth.
17:52Name them for me, the ones that you definitely killed.
17:55Christy, 100%.
17:57And he goes all the way back to 1953.
18:00The year, he says, this murder spree began,
18:03when he pushed a Dublin man called Christy Smith,
18:06in front of a tube train at Baker Street Station.
18:11Christy Smith.
18:13Christy Smith, like 100% positive, yeah?
18:16And then, the cunt, the cunt in there.
18:19The derelict.
18:21In the house fissure.
18:23Yeah.
18:26Coronation buildings.
18:27Well, we're not sure about that one.
18:28We'll leave that one out.
18:29We'll leave that one out.
18:31Yeah, what about here?
18:34Yeah, the bush.
18:36No, no, no, what about here?
18:37Come on, we've got three at the moment.
18:39There's one in the bush, in Shepherd's Bush.
18:43Yeah.
18:44I'm not sure again.
18:45We don't know about that one, alright?
18:46And the last one was?
18:48Here.
18:49Here?
18:50In the cell?
18:51Hmm.
18:52Alright, now, is there anything else you want to tell us that you've done?
18:56Mickey done?
18:57Mickey done.
18:58Is there anything else you want to tell us you've done?
18:59I changed.
19:00Honest to fucking God, I haven't got a clue.
19:03I don't know.
19:04I'm being innocent, really.
19:06Oh.
19:07I'm being innocent with alcohols.
19:09I smacked them, hurt them.
19:10They're dead.
19:11They're half dead.
19:12I don't care about it.
19:13I don't have...
19:15I'll sneak out, come back.
19:17I don't shout my head out.
19:19I sit down, quiet, drinking.
19:23I don't stop shouting about it, you know what I mean?
19:26Alright, so you never know whether they're dead or not?
19:28No, much more.
19:29I don't worry.
19:30What?
19:33This was the era of Peter Sutcliffe, Dennis Nielsen.
19:37Kelly's confession of murder was, you know, north of that.
19:42Ian Brown and his fellow detective thought they may well be in the presence of Britain's most prolific serial killer.
19:51When you...
19:52Does anything go through your mind or don't you care anymore?
19:57Just mind me.
19:58Don't worry.
19:59No.
20:01In those days, everything was paper.
20:04And we sat down and read Kelly's file and found that he was a drunk, he was a tramp, he was a petty thief.
20:11Except he had one thing on his record that not many tramps had.
20:16On Kelly's face there was a previous murder charge from 1977, five years before his arrest in Clapham.
20:29A homeless man called Toll had been strangled in a London park.
20:33At the time, Kelly was the only suspect, but walked free.
20:39The crime remained unsolved.
20:42Because of that, even though he's been found not guilty, I thought, I'll just try to see if I can get him to actually confess to that one while he's here.
20:54So I said to him, what about the others, Kelly?
20:59And he went dead silent and then he looked at me and said, you're talking about Fisher, are you?
21:06And I didn't know what the hell he was talking about.
21:10Fisher meant nothing to me.
21:12But I look at the sergeant and he excuses himself and goes out and gets somebody to rush up to Scotland Yard and get the file on Fisher.
21:23When it comes back, we find that it was an unsolved murder.
21:30The Fisher murder was on Clapham Common.
21:36One of Kelly's regular haunts in the London Underground.
21:38The man who was murdered in Clapham Common in 1975 was Peter Fisher, who was kind of a failed businessman.
21:54Enjoyed the drink, obviously had fallen on hard times, so found himself in the company of Kelly and a kind of cohort of street drinkers who used the common.
22:03All right, I want you to move on now and talk about Fisher.
22:09Would you tell me again how you did him?
22:15I gave him a wallop and I cut him.
22:19I don't think they were stabs, I'm not sure, but I cut his bollocks.
22:23And how many times did you stab him?
22:25He put a good drink on me.
22:26What did you hit him dead with?
22:28A big, fucking big thing that I had in my hand.
22:31Heavy.
22:33Heavy.
22:38Kelly says that Fisher kind of made a pass on him.
22:42Well, actually, Kelly says that Fisher wanted his arse.
22:52Bottles, butt end of a knife.
22:55He used a bit of a bar as well.
22:57And how was he when you left him?
23:02What? How was he left him?
23:04He went down.
23:06Was he dead?
23:08I don't know if he was dead or alive nor was I worrying.
23:12The most kind of gruesome injury he said he inflicted on Hector Fisher was that he cut him and he, like in Kelly's words, he cut him in the bollocks.
23:22Would you tell me again how you did him?
23:25I gave him a bollock.
23:27And I cut him, I don't think they were stabs.
23:30I'm not sure.
23:31What?
23:35When you left him and you went back to the skipper, where was he then when you left him?
23:41On the bench.
23:42The nobody's own was a world that existed in London in the 60s, 70s, very much associated with Irish people who fell on hard times in this era and had alcohol addiction issues.
24:09Because of the vagrancy laws in Britain, where it was illegal to be on the street if you were homeless, retreated into this foggy world of London parklands and commons and graveyards.
24:22A kind of subculture emerged of people who knew each other only by their county of origin and possibly their first name or a nickname.
24:30So like a Cork John or a Clare Liam or a place called Mick.
24:39Yeah, no.
24:41You, you find a derelict building to sleep in and you become part of the debris.
24:48Then in the morning you wake up and shake yourself free and the debris, you come and you've got to get a drink.
24:55Because Boos the Beast is already awake.
24:59The guys who couldn't hack it anymore, they got badly mugging and some of the good hiding.
25:04And the limping around, they can't play anymore.
25:07But they start drinking fatty spirits or physical spirits.
25:12And what was your own drink of preference?
25:14The V.
25:16Yeah.
25:17Red or white.
25:18Red or red.
25:24The group at King's Cross were made up mostly of Scotch people.
25:31In the West End at Leicester Square, they were made up of all sorts.
25:39The group I hung out with, they were from Ireland, they were in Camden Town in Euston.
25:43My parents were Irish, my grandparents, my great-grandparents, it went back as far as you could remember.
25:56And the vagrancy laws produce cultures of savagery.
26:00So if you think someone should get some money up and more, get their drink.
26:06Then the violence would start.
26:09Then someone might back them up.
26:11And you'd have to back up your faction.
26:14Or else you'd say, fuck this.
26:16This is nothing to do with me, I don't want to get nicked today.
26:20I want to live another day.
26:22Then someone might pull you the next day and say, you fucked off.
26:26And then someone left staff.
26:29Because you left.
26:31It was more like ancient Sparta, than swinging sixties London.
26:39Fisher.
26:41Would you tell me again, how you did him?
26:44Kelly has just confessed to the brutal murder of Hector Fisher.
27:01But when police checked the case notes from 1975, Kelly's graphic description doesn't match up.
27:07The inference was that Fisher was a homosexual.
27:11Kelly was offended to think that somebody was gay.
27:25In the autopsy report, Kelly's admissions are absolutely correct.
27:29There's evidence of Fisher's body being cut with glass, being stabbed with a knife, being beaten with an iron bar.
27:37But there's no evidence of Hector Fisher being cut into bollocks.
27:42I'm not sure if I cut his bollocks.
27:47I'm not sure.
27:48You're right.
27:52Alright, but you had his blood on your jumper.
27:55What jumper was that?
27:56Sparta blood.
27:57A red, red one.
27:58But I had blood as well.
27:59And that goes forensics.
28:00Everyone knows what comes out of forensics.
28:02So I says, fuck it.
28:03And I got rid.
28:04I changed out of it with the colonel.
28:06The colonel?
28:08Yeah.
28:09Who's he, Kelly?
28:11The colonel, from the old days.
28:13He's a man.
28:14What's his auntie shop in Chelsea?
28:15And what's the colonel got to do with it?
28:18The colonel's seen me and he says, I says, have you a jumper down there?
28:22And he says, you need it badly.
28:24And did he know what you'd done?
28:26He didn't know his blood, did he?
28:27I mean, it splashes the red paint on it.
28:29So he brought me down and he gave me a trousers and a jumper and a shirt.
28:33Are you a friend of yours?
28:35He's a friend of a lot of dossers around.
28:37And how old is the colonel?
28:40Well, he's 65 or maybe 70.
28:43He's pretty fresh looking.
28:45He's fresh.
28:46All right.
28:47But was he kind to you or was he friendly with you?
28:49Well, he was friendly, so I don't think he was puffs.
28:53You know, he never...
28:55In other words, I was in sex, right?
28:57And I had it sitting there having a cup of tea and sandwiches.
29:01But he never suggested anything like sex-like or any, you know, homosexual stuff.
29:08And what conversation did you and the colonel have about the clothes?
29:13When he was going to get rid of them, he wasn't going to fucking wear them, was he?
29:17So I said, I'll take these.
29:19He says, no.
29:20He says, the dust men is coming.
29:21And he says, I'll put them into a bag and I'll throw them out.
29:23And I'm coming out.
29:25Then there's the dust men coming along.
29:28There's something odd about that story.
29:31What are you smiling for?
29:33What's up about it?
29:35You telling me what's up about it?
29:40There was something funny about the case.
29:43I mean, the fact that he had admitted a murder whilst he was in prison caused me some concern.
29:53That is what causes me to doubt whether Kieran Kelly did actually kill Fisher.
30:00There's something odd about that story, isn't there?
30:02What are you smiling for?
30:03Tell us.
30:04Tell me what's up.
30:14Kelly, what was he?
30:15A tramp who killed another tramp in a cell?
30:18What we're both after is the truth.
30:20He got the truth as far as I'm concerned.
30:23It wasn't until you get his file out and you start to read and you think, hang on a minute.
30:30He chucks the bombshells in.
30:33All right, Kelly.
30:34How many people do you think you've killed altogether?
30:37Well, put that down then.
30:38What's that down there?
30:39That's 11 now.
30:45Kelly's longest of murder covers 30 years.
30:48Most of the victims were homeless men, living rough in London's nobody's zone.
30:55Some were Irish, like James.
30:58They would have vagrants in it, sleeping rough, drinking anything they could get their hands on.
31:07And they all had their own skipper, as they called it, where they slept.
31:12That's my tombstone.
31:15I sleep on that every night.
31:18And nobody there go on it.
31:21In a world that started by alcohol addiction,
31:24Kelly.
31:25This patient is Kelly.
31:26Kelly's crimes were easy to conceal and difficult to prove.
31:33You've had a chance to do this before.
31:36Where?
31:37Well, when you was arrested on the Toll murder.
31:40Did you do Toll?
31:44He had been to the Old Bailey Central Criminal Court.
31:47Chicks with murder.
31:49Of another brump.
31:51A guy called Toll.
31:53Toll was sleeping on Kelly's tombstone in Kennington Church.
31:58Kelly wasn't happy about it, so...
32:00He took the rope from round his waist that was keeping his trousers up.
32:05Bit round Toll's neck and...
32:11He walked away and...
32:13One of the other tramps said,
32:15Oh, God, Kelly, I killed him.
32:18So he turned round, went back, put the rope back round his neck.
32:22Did it again.
32:25And then walked away and said,
32:27Well, I have now.
32:31But he'd gone to the Old Bailey and stood trial.
32:35But the only witnesses against him were...
32:37A couple of...
32:39Alcoholic tramps.
32:41And so it was that the tramps weren't too clear about anything.
32:46And Kelly walked out free.
32:48Well, I was very full of paranoia and aggression.
33:01Not when they didn't...
33:03If...
33:05Suddenly, I'd get aggressive straight away.
33:07There was a guy called McClacken.
33:11He didn't care about McClacken.
33:14He was from Ireland.
33:15He was a cot sheet.
33:16You know, like my family.
33:18So anyway, I was on the station.
33:21And I was sitting down on the bench with McClacken, which was my first mistake.
33:25The next thing he got me by the throat like that.
33:29And the...
33:31I realised...
33:33I had to break the lock.
33:35So I got my thumb...
33:37Between...
33:38And then I caught him with a hook and split him across the eye.
33:41And...
33:42And...
33:43The sudden shock of...
33:44Blow coming from nowhere.
33:46He let go.
33:47So I jumped up.
33:49And...
33:50He was just about...
33:51They closed the doors and I threw off the train.
33:54And...
33:55Banged my head on the floor.
33:57I was closed and the cop was come.
33:59And they grabbed McClacken.
34:02They'd have fucking choked me if I hadn't got my th-
34:08I think that we were all a bit psychotic.
34:11But there was deep in that one.
34:19In the early 60s, Kelly drifted in and out of the nobody's home.
34:25Living a d-
34:30Mr. Kelly.
34:32Very tough though.
34:33I mean, wiry.
34:34I mean, he was a tough cookie.
34:37After a bout of heavy drinking and sleeping rough,
34:40Kelly would turn up for a few weeks work.
34:43With building contractor Brian Slyman.
34:48He'd be in a pub where they'd have music for instance.
34:51And he'd go up on the stage.
34:53Pick the mic and start.
34:544-1-9.
34:55Galway 4 points.
34:56And the Galway crowd getting a little bit anxious.
35:00I think he would take me here.
35:02He could imitate.
35:04When he could comment in a football match.
35:06As if he was watching it.
35:07When he had made it up.
35:09And the goal is from Galway on the full back and the mids.
35:12When he said the mids.
35:13He'd get the s*** out of the net.
35:14S*** out of the net.
35:15Sending it high and sending it over the barn!
35:17It's Kreritavus!
35:19How do that, I don't know, but...
35:21That was his party piece.
35:23He was like an alone or such!
35:27He got on with other people.
35:29Two degrees.
35:31People tried to avoid it, that was only the problem.
35:34It didn't take him a lot need drunk by the way.
35:36Tough shit drinks and he was...
35:37if you said the wrong thing to him, that was it.
35:46According to Kelly's own story,
35:50it didn't take much for his irritation to turn murderous.
35:55The Coronation Buildings was, it was a derelict house that was a sleeper for Trumps.
36:10Kelly talked about a man that he'd poured whiskey down his throat and killed.
36:19He couldn't remember who he was, but he knows he killed him.
36:24I love Kelly.
36:35Yeah, well, I love Kelly.
36:41Right, who do you think that might be?
36:43I don't know who he is.
36:46Right, have you seen him?
36:47Yeah.
36:48Let's put it to you bluntly, mate.
36:50Is that the guy you killed in Coronation Buildings?
36:52I fucking like him, to be honest.
36:54It's like the head and all that, the hair.
36:57Alright, and what did he do?
36:59Huh?
37:00Well, I don't fucking know.
37:02I can't, I can't.
37:04I'd drink on me.
37:05I wasn't drunk.
37:06Right, you know we told you our records show that you were in prison when that one was done in Coronation.
37:11Well, then the cunt mustn't have died the one I do.
37:15What are you saying?
37:17Well, I think it's done because I put it down his throat, right?
37:20I know what I done in that house myself.
37:23Alright, well, how did he do it?
37:25Huh?
37:26Whiskey down his whiskey.
37:28I think it was whiskey or wine.
37:32And you said that is the guy.
37:33Yeah.
37:34Right, because the way you described to me that you, that you killed him before, remember,
37:38when you got down on your knees in this office and showed me with a towel.
37:41Yeah, I had it under his, under his chin and, and, and to his ears and, and I'm,
37:46my knees holding the towel and, and, and to his ears and I'm pulling and, pulling
37:52on and, and, and out of a bottle.
37:54And he was, like, bubbling back up out of a bottle.
38:00What, the whole bottle?
38:02No, there was, there was, there was, there was some left, some left in the bottle, but
38:06I didn't drink it because he was bringing a vomit as well.
38:09And it's just the raw whiskey, like, I mean, get it down, whiskey, and you bring it straight,
38:15straight up.
38:17I didn't want to get it on me own clothes because I had a good old trousers on me.
38:21Yeah, well, let me, let me tell you, let me tell you the biggest problem, Kelly.
38:23Basically, everything you told us is similar to the one that happened at the construction
38:26buildings.
38:27Right?
38:28But when that one happened, you were in prison.
38:30Oh, Jesus, well, I'm telling you, I'd done one there, but I don't know whether he was
38:35dead or not.
38:36Understand me now?
38:37Kelly would know that he's a violent person and that he kills people.
38:42So, perhaps, he dies himself to virtually every death of tramps that there is in the
38:48area.
38:49He's the one in the construction building.
38:51Is that the absolute best?
38:53It's the truth, yeah.
38:54In actual fact, Patsy Waters died exactly that way in coronation buildings.
38:59The only thing is that Kelly was prison at the time.
39:03Come on, Kelly.
39:04Come on.
39:05Patsy Waters, come on, tell us the truth.
39:08Who's that photograph?
39:09Who's that photo-
39:10That's Patsy Waters, isn't it?
39:11It's a bad photograph.
39:12No, no, no, come on, tell us the truth about that one because it's the one.
39:16Then he's just a fucking-
39:17Come on, Kelly, tell us the truth about that one.
39:19What do you want me to tell you?
39:20I want you to tell us the truth.
39:21I'm telling you the-
39:22That you killed him.
39:23Yeah.
39:24I want you to tell you our records show that you're in prison when Patsy Waters died.
39:27But then the cunt mustn't have died the thing that I've done.
39:30But you see?
39:31You can't have a game with us.
39:33I'm not.
39:34Now you're laughing again.
39:35I'm not laughing.
39:36Look, I could meet a fella who could turn around and say I'm Patsy Waters.
39:39I'm fucking simple as that.
39:40Now listen, you are laughing.
39:42Kelly showed his animal cunning, I suppose.
39:47The fact that he was playing us at times and-
39:51And eventually agrees with you.
39:53But he's had his five minutes to play with you.
39:55No, sin.
39:56You're playing a game.
39:57Now keep-
39:58Keep to the point.
39:59Can I have one of them cigarettes, please?
40:01Now keep-
40:02And now you're trying to pack it up about Patsy Waters.
40:05No, I need a cunt up.
40:06I'm telling you and that's it.
40:07Right, Kelly, let's put it to you straight.
40:09Is this something of a red area?
40:10No.
40:11Coronation.
40:12I'm serious.
40:13I'm serious about this.
40:14I'm serious.
40:15If not, scrub it off.
40:20Is Ciaran Kelly spinning the police story?
40:23Is he a manipulator?
40:25Is Kelly completely mad?
40:28On the other hand, is he trying to admit to crimes that he didn't commit in order to confuse
40:35the police investigation in the hope that they can't convict him on any crime?
40:42Let me put it to you.
40:44Is there any jokes that you've been telling us in the hope that we're going to go off chasing
40:50red herrings?
40:51And somehow or other you'll rig Al out of killing that man?
40:53It's up to you, I said.
40:57When you just listen to the tape raw, you hear a man who is very composed in the fullness
41:06of his mental faculties in that moment.
41:08How are you Kelly?
41:09All right.
41:10Do you want a cup of tea?
41:11A cup of tea?
41:12A cup of tea?
41:13A cup of coffee.
41:14A cup of tea please.
41:15A cup of tea.
41:16I quite like at the start where they offer him a cup of tea.
41:18You know, they're building rapport.
41:19They're offering him a cigarette.
41:20They want him to be comfortable in the hope then that he will be forthcoming with the
41:23information that they require from him.
41:25He is in charge.
41:26He is in charge.
41:27He is in charge.
41:28He is in charge.
41:29He is in charge.
41:30He is in charge.
41:31Also the manipulation of the arrogance was there.
41:34You don't expect it from somebody who's homeless and an alcoholic has no means.
41:37They come across as a nobody.
41:39But in that interview, he's able to exert his own arrogance.
41:42He's able to question the police.
41:44Who's in charge here?
41:45Kind of a cult.
41:46In his own subtle wick, he's directing what's going on.
41:58Right.
41:59About Mr. Kelly.
42:02He was about six foot.
42:04Very thin and gaunt looking.
42:08He'd run up to other p******s and just stand in front of them.
42:12And fear into them because of his crimes.
42:16Head games.
42:18The weak will always be his target.
42:21Yes.
42:24All right.
42:25Mr. Brown's going to ask you now about Christy Smith.
42:28And go over that again.
42:30Yeah.
42:31It's interesting, Kelly, that when we talk to you, you usually...
42:36All the interviews we did always went back to 1953 and Christy Smith.
42:46He was his mate.
42:47They came over from Ireland together.
42:49And he killed him.
42:50But of course we don't know anything about Christy Smith.
43:00Can't find any record of this.
43:02And we can't find Christy Smith.
43:04According to Kelly, Christy and Kelly had an argument.
43:20And Kerkel claims to have pushed Christy Smith under a train at Baker Street Tube Station.
43:27Around June 1953.
43:30What happened to...
43:31What happened to Kathleen?
43:32I've never seen her after that.
43:34You see...
43:35Christy's...
43:36It's what I know.
43:40He really does sound like he's telling the truth with so many of these things.
43:43And in fact, he is telling the truth.
43:45Paul Smith was Christy Smith's brother.
43:47Kathleen was Christy Smith's girlfriend.
43:50It's the odd part of the story that isn't so true.
43:54Name them for me, the ones that you killed.
43:57Christy Smith.
43:59As Detective Inspector said,
44:01If this was a lie, it meant that all of Kelly's claims could be a lie.
44:06You definitely killed Christy Smith.
44:07Yeah.
44:09You definitely killed Christy Smith.
44:11Yeah.
44:24My daughter's grave, the two three four four Beach square shirts.
44:28And I'm talking to Buddy.
44:30I didn't even remember you.
44:31I don't have time.
44:32I didn't know you're screaming before you saw shortly.
44:37Okay.
44:38You know, what a man said it was.
44:45I think I'm being reaction.
44:47Right.
44:48Alright.
44:49We killed the husband.
44:50Yes?
44:51And cause we killed a N.
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