- 3 hours ago
On this India Today special report, experts analyse the escalating crisis in Bangladesh following the ouster of Sheikh Hasina. Senior journalist Subir Bhaumik argues the current turmoil is 'a complete all out attack on the very values that made 1971 and the independence of Bangladesh possible.' The discussion covers the rising radicalism, attacks on minorities, and the targeting of secular institutions like the Prothom Alo and Daily Star newspapers and the Chhayanaut cultural centre. Former Indian High Commissioner to Bangladesh, Ambassador Veena Sikri, warns that the Jamaat-e-Islami is controlling the interim government of Muhammad Yunus. Lt Gen Tiny Dhillon (Retd), former Director General of India's Defence Intelligence Agency, provides a strategic perspective on India's role and the geopolitical situation, stating that Bangladesh 'cannot survive without India's support'.
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00:00India Today is the only channel at the epicenter of the violence in Bangladesh.
00:04India Today's Ashutosh Mishra reports from Ground Zero brings us the latest situation and the tensions on ground.
00:14Osman Hadi has led to rest but raising several questions.
00:17How in a broad daylight he was shot dead?
00:20Where are those shooters?
00:21When the government, police agency, intelligence say the shooter have been identified, they remain in Bangladesh.
00:26Who was the key factor? What was the catalyst that played a propaganda that shooters of Hadi escaped to India?
00:33Several such questions that is questioning Dr. Yudu's administration and their failure to contain the violence and the situation in Bangladesh.
00:43This is Ashutosh Mishra reporting from Ground Zero in Dhaka in Bangladesh.
00:48Is the situation likely to improve or go from bad to worse?
00:52Joining me on this India Today special broadcast, Ambassador Veena Sikri, India's former High Commissioner to Bangladesh.
00:58Left-in-Channel Tiny Dylan, former Director General of India's Defense Intelligence Agency.
01:03Joining us from Ground Zero Bangladesh is Muktadir Rashid Romeo, a journalist.
01:08And Shubir Bhomik is a senior journalist and author who's been tracking Bangladesh very closely.
01:13Muktadir, from Ground Zero in Bangladesh, the massive crowd that you saw that gathered at Osman Hadi's funeral.
01:20And a mere seven arrested, many say token arrested in the lynching of a Hindu man.
01:27There are many concerns that minorities are no longer safe in Bangladesh.
01:34Thank you for having me. I don't think so.
01:36I don't think that the Bangladeshi minorities are at stake.
01:40They are also the part of very mainstreaming politics and other things.
01:44And this is a false accusation have been propagated by international and regional, some of the regional media, which I don't believe.
01:55Because I have many Hindu friends who are really doing the top position of the media, civil service and other places.
02:03So, how do you see the persecution of them when the celebration of Durga Puja was mostā¦
02:10We just saw a Hindu man being lynched, tied to a tree and killed.
02:17Are you saying this is how minorities will be treated in Bangladesh?
02:21And a token arrest?
02:23No, not at all.
02:24Ambassador Sikri, Ambassador Sikri and this isn't an isolated incident.
02:28There have been multiple such instances.
02:30Are minorities free in Bangladesh or are journalists also in Bangladesh now propagating?
02:35What Muhammad Yunus tells them to?
02:39Absolutely.
02:40Actually, the question is, right from the minute Sheikh Hasina's plane left Naka on 5th of August 2024,
02:47the first target, there were two targets.
02:49One was the attack on the minorities, the Hindu, Buddhists, Christians and Ahmadiyyas and Sufis,
02:56all the minorities, Muslim minorities and other minorities.
02:59And the second was the attack on everything to do with the Avami League,
03:02whether Sheikh Mujib statue or Avami League headquarters or Danwandi residents and so on.
03:06So, we know that the attack on minorities has been persistent.
03:10It has been documented by the UN.
03:12Even Volker Turk has mentioned it, although he's not given the details.
03:15Pratham Aalo, leading Bangladesh newspaper, mentioned, in fact, detailed mention of the attacks on the minorities.
03:23All carried in the Bangladesh media.
03:25And subsequently, we have the details provided by so much of the regional media in Kolkata and other places.
03:31But Muhammad Yunus has his eyes closed to it.
03:34No, so is that the reason then?
03:36And ma'am, stay with me for a moment.
03:38Is that the reason, Muktadir, that Pratham Aalo was targeted and the Daily Star were targeted?
03:44Why would newspapers be targeted?
03:46Why would Chaya not, for example, be targeted if this wasn't rising radicalism in Bangladesh, sir?
03:57Muktadir.
03:58Is this a question to me?
03:59Yes, sir.
04:00I don't think so.
04:01It's because of a long-standing kind of, you know, kind of very significant amount of intent and hatred that has been, you know, propagated in Bangladesh.
04:14Because you see that hardly people know about India, the relation with India.
04:20Whenever the Indian authorities are pinching their nose and when they are propagating every time, again, Bangladesh.
04:28So people are, you know, very much agree with this.
04:31The Bangladeshi, after the 5th August, they wanted to have very good relation with every neighbor.
04:38But what we have seen every time, every time, propaganda against Bangladesh.
04:43So Bangladeshi people are now very afraid of what India is doing.
04:48Because they are believing that the many of the family leaders who are, you know, conspiring from India.
04:56That is why these Bangladeshi people who are scared will either lynch Hindus or they will burn Pratha Malo or they will burn the office of Daily Star.
05:06And they will burn down Chaya North, which is Bengali music, Bengali culture, Bengali art.
05:11There are a lot of lynching incidents that have been taking place in Bangladesh since 5th August, which is very unfortunate, which is absolutely unfortunate.
05:23Dr. Mohammed, you know, just said that the seven suspected criminals were arrested.
05:29But that's not enough at all.
05:30Because that should be stopped.
05:32And we have been saying that it must be stopped.
05:34This such mob should be stopped.
05:37But yes, we don't want to see this is in an optics of religion or any sect orā¦
05:44Of course, secular lynching, sir.
05:45It's a phenomenon.
05:46Absolutely.
05:47Secular lynching.
05:48Nothing to do with religion.
05:50Let me bring in Shubir Bhamek.
05:51Let me bring in Shubir Bhamek.
05:53You know, I can understand that Bangladeshis say it's hatred for India.
05:57Explain, Shubir Bhamek, what is your reading of burning down the offices of Pratha Malo and Daily Star and Chaya North,
06:05which is all about Bengali music, Bengali culture, Bengali art operating since 1961?
06:11Let me make one thing very, very clear.
06:17What is happening in Bangladesh today is a complete all-out attack on the very values that made 1971 and the independence of Bangladesh possible.
06:29It's an attack.
06:30You know, Osman Hadi is killing.
06:32What has Chaya North and Udichi got to do with it?
06:35But Udichi has been attacked before.
06:36These people have been attacked before.
06:38You know, this is a direct attack on the very identity, the secular linguistic nationalist identity, which made Bangladesh possible.
06:49Today, the ghost of Pakistan has returned.
06:53And these people who are doing it are actually going to facilitate.
06:57It's all a plan, a larger game plan to facilitate an Islamist takeover of the country.
07:03Now, in Bengali, we say, you know, you cannot cover up a huge problem by posing or feigning ignorance that everything is fine, everything is OK.
07:14I am against the idea that only X is attacked or Y is attacked.
07:22You know, it's not just the Hindus.
07:24It's the Sufis who have been attacked.
07:27Islam grew in the Bengal frontier courtesy of the Sufis, OK?
07:31It's not the Salafist Wahhabi Islam.
07:34No, but let me get Muktadir to respond to why would Chaya not be targeted?
07:42Why would symbols of Bengali culture or music or art and literature be targeted, sir?
07:48It's definitely by far-right wing because the growing anti-Indian sentiment is taken by the hardliners and, of course, some of the major, major far-right groups.
08:04And they are taking advantage of it.
08:06This anti-Indian sentiment?
08:07We are very much shocked with this.
08:11OK.
08:12We are very much shocked with this.
08:13We are extremely shocked with this.
08:15We are very much shocked with this.
08:17No, no, but, you know, General Dhillon, before I bring in Ambassador Seekree, General Dhillon, the secular liberal Bengalis have been shocked since the day Sheikh Hasina was ousted.
08:30They remain in shock and yet they remain silent, it seems.
08:36Good evening, Gaurav, and good evening to fellow panelists, 10 days of yours.
08:40One thing which has to be understood is that 1971 liberation of Bangladesh happened
08:45and because Bengali Muslims of Bangladesh were not happy with the Punjabi-Pakistani-Musliman-dominated Pakistan army.
08:54The type of atrocities the Punjabi-Pakistanis carried out on the Bengalis and people are still alive who have seen 1971 and, you know, issues leading up to that.
09:06And today, it's very easy for the guests to say, guests on the show to say, it's an anti-India sentiment.
09:13If it is an anti-India sentiment, why the local Bengali citizens of Bangladesh of a particular religious domination are being attacked?
09:23Why are the symbols of, you know, secularism being attacked?
09:26Why are the MDRs being attacked?
09:28Why are the Sufis being attacked?
09:30If it is an anti-India sentiment, why the local citizens of Bangladesh are being attacked?
09:35And let me be very clear about it.
09:38Anti-India sentiment will not last very long.
09:40Bangladesh is India locked.
09:43Let's not have any doubts about it.
09:45It is India locked and it cannot survive without India's sport and friendly relationship.
09:51It came into existence because of India.
09:56It must remain into existence with friendly relations as neighborly at equal terms with India.
10:02This rhetoric of anti-India sentiment does not hold water in today's international diplomacy and international relations.
10:09But I want to bring in Ambassador Sikri because Ambassador Sikri, you were our High Commissioner in Bangladesh at a time when there was a hostile government.
10:17Is the situation as bad now or even worse now where these radical Islamists have virtually taken over the country
10:25and the civil society is either afraid, unwilling, unable or complicit in not calling them out?
10:32Absolutely.
10:33You know, when I was there, you're right, there was Begum Khalid Azir's government in alliance with the Jamaat-e-Islami.
10:38Now, of course, it was a very difficult government.
10:40On security issues, we had a very difficult time.
10:42And Pakistan was trying at that time also to get into, you know, every aspect of Bangladesh life.
10:50But what I see today, it began last August by bringing in a lot of deja vu for me because it was very similar to what Pakistan was trying to do then.
10:59But what I've seen today is gone far beyond that because Pakistan has overturned everything of the last 54 years.
11:07They have never been able to embed themselves in the Bangladesh army as they have done today.
11:12They have never been able to reverse all the decisions of the last 54 years, like visa restrictions, trade, cargo inspection, you know, studying in each other.
11:20All that has been reversed.
11:22And they are forcing, Muhammad Yunus is like putty in their hands.
11:26Jamaat-e-Islami is the one controlling it and he is the one driving it.
11:30This is repeated reference to anti-Indian sentiments by your panelists from Bangladesh is absolutely what they are trying to create.
11:39This is what the Islamists have been doing from day one.
11:41Now the Jamaat-e-Islami has even forgotten its partnership with BNP.
11:45They don't want BNP at all as a partner.
11:48The other Islamists as a partner.
11:49But is there an apprehension that Bangladesh could become the next Pakistan or worse and which will be very bad for your country, sir?
11:59No, it will not be a Pakistan, but it will be an Ukraine for South Asia.
12:07That you should be worried about.
12:09And I'm also worried about this because the some international players are now playing in Bangladesh.
12:14Then they want Jamaat to be in power for future.
12:17And there will be huge trouble in the days ahead.
12:20So that's what we are worried.
12:21But that is not a concern that there will be another Pakistan.
12:24Because Bangladeshi people don't like that kind of relation anymore.
12:28Sir, I have been hearing this since the day Sheikh Hasina was ousted.
12:33But each day, the news is even worse than the previous day.
12:37Initially, temples were being targeted.
12:40Then churches were being targeted.
12:41Minorities were being targeted.
12:43We were seeing videos of minorities being asked to leave their jobs, whether it's in the police or in education.
12:50Sir, that's exactly how radical Islamists behave.
12:53Even in Pakistan, burn down schools, target religious institutions, target minorities, and then radical Islamists rule.
13:00Isn't that what is happening today, sir?
13:03Not exactly what you are saying.
13:05But sometimes some incidents are taking place.
13:08But we think that every time it happens when there is a major party, when they sell off, and their prime minister has to leave.
13:18But the thing is, I believe, that there are certain people inside Dr. Yunus' government.
13:24They are supporting Jamaat.
13:26They are religious versions everywhere.
13:30So that there would be a fear that people, you must go.
13:33You have to do.
13:34Even many secular people are not, they can't work nowadays.
13:39Many journalists who are very outspoken, they are now self-centered.
13:44So this is happening.
13:46That is fact.
13:47But the way, the office you have of minority torture, I don't believe in that.
13:52Sir, I just saw a Hindu man being lynched.
13:54Those videos are horrifying, Shubir.
13:56Shubir Bhamek, when you look at that video, a man is stripped because he is a Hindu.
14:02He is beaten up because he is Hindu.
14:05He is hung from a tree because he is Hindu.
14:08And then he is burnt.
14:10And there are hundreds of people who are there.
14:12Not one, two, three.
14:13Hundreds who are filming it.
14:15Not one helping him.
14:17Shubir Bhamek, if this isn't what rising radicalism is, Shubir Bhamek, what else is?
14:22Well, these things are worse have happened.
14:26And this has not just happened to Hindus.
14:28Let me make a point of this.
14:30You know, women have been raped because somebody was a wife of a ex-Hommelic leader who has fled the country, you know, after the fall of Sheikh Hasina's government.
14:40And that rape scene was filmed and then circulated.
14:44So, as a Bengali, I feel ashamed that somebody who speaks my language and shares my common culture could be doing these kind of things.
14:55It's not just that this has happened to the Hindus.
14:58What I'm trying to insist on is that this kind of sustained, state-sponsored brutality, because none of these people are ever arrested.
15:07Yunus, you know, speaks very nicely.
15:10He appeals to the Western media.
15:12He speaks to the English, the Nobel laureate, and all that nonsense that goes with his persona.
15:19But on ground, look at this.
15:20He has been, he has released, he has given indemnity to all these troublemakers.
15:26He has released scores of hard-line East-Ramish extremists who were convicted.
15:31People like Jashimuddin Rahmani, the chief of Ansarullah Bangla team.
15:35Now, let's not, you know, there is no scope for covering up.
15:43You know, the thing here is that Yunus and Jamaat-Islami and these Islamists are made for each other today.
15:50Yunus wants to become the president.
15:52Wait, wait, Gaurab, let me finish.
15:55Yunus, this is the game plan.
15:57Yunus wants to be the president because he wants immunity from prosecution for the many donambari stuff that he has been doing.
16:05You know, money laundering, etc., etc., the list is long.
16:08He wants to be president for getting immunity from prosecution and to get control of the armed forces.
16:15The Jamaat wants Yunus because he will be a first face for a government of Allah.
16:19He's an international face.
16:19So, let me bring an ambassador's secret quickly into this conversation because I really want to understand,
16:25is the situation likely to become worse, hopefully, before it gets better?
16:30No, I think the situation is getting very bad.
16:34But the only answer, the only solution to the situation is to have free, fair and inclusive elections.
16:41But that's not possible?
16:43No, it is possible.
16:43Avami League is banned?
16:45No, actually, Mohamed Yunus himself gave an interview in September in New York.
16:50And when he was asked by the interviewer, why have you banned the Avami League?
16:53He said, I haven't banned the Avami League.
16:54I have only banned the activities of the Avami League.
16:57And when the interviewer asked him that can they participate in the elections?
17:00He said the election commission will decide.
17:02So, this is just a fake cover to ban the Avami League because the Jamaat-e-Islami is completely unhappy
17:09that the popularity is not coming to them.
17:11The NCP is unhappy, the popularity is not coming to them.
17:14So, to make sure that they are declared victors, they have banned the Avami League and the Jatya Party and others.
17:19And India has been insisting strongly there must be inclusive elections.
17:23Otherwise, they will not be credible.
17:24And we have to continue to insist on that because if there are inclusive elections, anybody can get elected.
17:29And I can tell you one of the reasons why Bratam Halu was burnt, because in a national opinion survey,
17:35they declared that 70% of the people of Bangladesh want Avami League to participate in the elections.
17:41It's not that they want to vote for them, but they want Avami League to participate in the elections
17:45so that they have democratic, inclusive elections.
17:48And that is what angered these Islamists, the radicals, all that.
17:53That's why they attacked them.
17:54So, we must insist on inclusive elections.
17:56This present situation cannot continue.
17:58And if there are inclusive elections, everything will return to normal.
18:01Okay.
18:02Muktadir, before I bring in General Dilan, is there also your appreciation?
18:06Because organizations like Pratham Halu and Daily Star were not towing the line of the Jamaat,
18:14they were burnt down.
18:16And I still don't understand why would Chaya not be taken down?
18:19Why would a cultural center be destroyed?
18:22Why would a cultural center be destroyed?
18:22Muktadir, this is the hate set has been propagated by one of the, that is the stuff has been propagated
18:35by one French-based video blogger.
18:39He has been asking people to target those secular institutions, especially Udici and Chaya not.
18:47And that is done.
18:49And very unfortunate, I would say very unfortunate, because those who want to go there, they will go.
18:55There is a school for the kids, that's in Nalanda, that has also been targeted.
19:01So, this is very ridiculous.
19:03And we don't support it.
19:05But that has been propagated.
19:09One section of this government is by now supporting that person for many months, I would say,
19:19so that they can do, or their followers can do whatever they want.
19:24And West security is very understated because of these people, because they are targeting our activities,
19:32they are targeting our, any kind of comments on social media or whatsoever.
19:37So, we are also under serious pressure.
19:40And of course, the challenge we have currently is more violence is terrible.
19:47And Dr. Yunus' government is not looking at this.
19:51But on the other hand, we must think about the whole process of how Kekhatina has been prosecuted,
19:57how the election will be held.
19:59So, we have to see the whole picture of it.
20:03No, but I want to understand from you, is the Awami League in a position to contest these elections?
20:08Is the Awami League going to contest these elections in February?
20:10If this government allows, they can, they have the full support of the people,
20:21those who have supported, they can contest this election.
20:25They can contest the election, even if they are in jail.
20:28Even, not under this government, probably, because it is highly backed by Jama'at.
20:32But their possibility, if Kekhatina is given chance, they can contest for the next election,
20:39whenever it takes place.
20:40Because they are supposed to be still in Bangladesh.
20:42Fear of the, I would say, the very thin section of their leader has been played.
20:48But even they are in Dura, even they are not prosecuted or convicted,
20:52they can contest from anywhere.
20:54And they will win in many cases.
20:56Okay, give me a moment.
20:58Shubir Bhamek wanted to come in, but I think we have just lost that connection with him.
21:02But, General Dhillon, we see a lot of activity, not just of Pakistan's ISI, openly.
21:07They are not even hiding it anymore.
21:09Their generals in uniform, Pakistan army officers,
21:12they are visiting Bangladesh extensively.
21:15There are reports of Lashkar-e-Taiba ideologues and terrorists indoctrinate,
21:21those who indoctrinate, they are visiting Bangladesh.
21:23So, do you expect trouble along the India-Bangladesh border
21:27or even deeper inside India in the run-up to elections in Bangladesh?
21:32As I said earlier, Bangladesh is India locked.
21:37Any trouble they want to create against India from within the Bangladeshi soil
21:42is going to be very, very bad for them.
21:46Now, having said that, this point which came up during the point made by the journalists for Bangladesh,
21:52that it is not the government which is doing it.
21:55This is not the government.
21:57It is not a popularly elected government.
21:59It is an imposed ruler.
22:02And they are very clearly looking away from all that were...
22:05country.
22:07And let me make one thing very clear to people who are 50 years and below,
22:11who have not seen 1971.
22:141971 happened, the liberation of Bangladesh happened,
22:17because Punjabi-Pakistani-Muslimans wanted to impose Punjabi onto them
22:22and Urdu onto them.
22:23And let me again tell the young boys of Bangladesh,
22:26International Language Day.
22:28The World Language Day is celebrated
22:30when the Bangladeshi people rose against Punjabi-Pakistani-Muslimans
22:35in favor of Bangla language.
22:37But isn't that what is happening all over again, Ambassador Sikri?
22:41That it is the Bengali language, the Bengali culture
22:45is being targeted by the Urdu-Punjabi-speaking elements,
22:50some directly from Pakistan and some operating through the Jamaat?
22:55Ma'am, you're on mute.
22:56State-sponsored terrorist groups from Pakistan,
23:02Jaish-e-Mohammad and Lashkar-e-Taiba,
23:04they have declared their presence already in Bangladesh.
23:08Asin Munir said the next attack is going to be from the east.
23:10So they're already part of the planning.
23:13But actually, it is only the majority,
23:15because Awami League has a solid support of 35-40%.
23:18In addition, there are a large number of people
23:20who may not support Awami League,
23:22but they believe in the values of liberation war.
23:24It's only if these people are allowed to participate
23:27in free, fair and inclusive elections,
23:29that the situation can return to normal.
23:31Otherwise, they will continue to oppose it.
23:34It will never be a stable society.
23:35So again and again, we have to remember
23:37that it's not a question of this government.
23:39Yunus is not a legitimate government.
23:40How can you call it a government?
23:41It's a regime.
23:43It's their user power.
23:44And if any election is to be held,
23:46it has to be held under a properly appointed
23:48caretaker government.
23:49So it is a, you know, you have to have
23:51maybe the last Supreme Court judge,
23:53whatever the regulations are.
23:54This government cannot run the election.
23:56This is an absolutely, very dastardly attempt
23:59to steal the elections away from the people
24:01and the people will not take it.
24:03And Shubir, isn't that exactly what is happening right now?
24:06Muhammad Yunus trying to usurp power,
24:10steal elections,
24:11and ensure there is no level playing field
24:14for the Awami League.
24:16You know, will Awami League be in a position
24:17to contest elections, in your view,
24:19given the current situation?
24:22Let me make one thing very, very clear.
24:25There is no provision for interim government
24:28in Bangladesh's constitution.
24:30Yunus took oath on Bangladesh's constitution
24:32when he came into office.
24:34He didn't take oath on Quran Sharif.
24:36Okay?
24:36There is no provision for interim government.
24:39Again, the elections that are being held
24:41are held alongside a referendum.
24:43There is no provision for referendum
24:45in Bangladesh's constitution.
24:47So the authority conducting the election is illegal.
24:50The act that is going to happen
24:52in the name of election,
24:54alongside referendum, is illegal.
24:56Secondly, how can there be inclusive election
24:58in Bangladesh without Awami League?
25:01Can there be inclusive election in India
25:02without Congress?
25:03Just because Congress has lost election,
25:06will you ban the Congress in our country?
25:08So this whole exercise is an exercise in illegality.
25:13And the Western world, which are shedding crocodile tears
25:17over lack of democracy in Bangladesh,
25:20today seem very comfortable with an unelected, illegal regime
25:25just because it serves their strategic purpose.
25:28This is what.
25:29And secondly, Yunus wants to be president.
25:31Jamaat wants to come to power.
25:33They want an Islamist takeover of the country.
25:36Jamaat leaders are today saying
25:38that this is the desire of Allah
25:42that everybody in Bangladesh should vote for us.
25:45I'm giving specific names.
25:46No, that's a pertinent point.
25:50No, no, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait a minute.
25:52He's saying that if you don't vote for Awami League,
25:55you will not go to Behest.
25:57Yeah, if you don't vote for Jamaat.
25:58This is the kind of stupid religious crash logic.
26:01Yes, Muktadir, that is the apprehension.
26:04That is the apprehension
26:05that a beautiful pluralistic society
26:08is now under pressure
26:11to become a radical Islamist society, sir.
26:14This will never happen.
26:17The pluralist society is under serious threat.
26:21The pluralist society is under serious threat.
26:24Liberalism is under civil threat.
26:27And there is no doubt about it.
26:29Many journalists are now very scared.
26:32The civil society members are very scared.
26:35And they are now basically in a position
26:39that they don't know what will be the future.
26:42I know many journalists who let it.
26:44Yeah, you stay safe.
26:45I know many journalists who.
26:46You stay safe.
26:47I've run out of time on this part of the show.
26:49But the story in Bangladesh is something
26:51because India loves Bangladesh.
26:53Indians love Bangladesh.
26:55And we would sincerely hope
26:56that they're able to sort out their situation.
26:59We'll be tracking that story very, very closely.
27:02To all my guests, many thanks for joining me.
27:04We'll see you next time.
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