00:00I'd now like to welcome in National Security Analyst, Travis Hawley. Trav, thank you so, so much for your time. What did you make of vision that you've seen thus far of these two gunmen at the Bondi mass shooting?
00:14Yeah, so I think when we put this in context, especially for people who live outside of Australia, people don't really know in the West that Australia banned most guns back in around 1996 after its most tragic mass shooting. I believe 35 people were killed then.
00:33So this now stands as the second most deadly fatal mass shooting in Australia's history and happens to target the Jewish people on the first night of Hanukkah.
00:44So I think for many of us who have been tracking this globalized Intifada movement following October 7, 2023, as many are saying, it's tragic but not surprising.
00:55I think what is surprising to many, again, I'm not an Australian citizen, as people can tell from my accent.
01:02What is surprising, though, is that they had the weapons and the skills to carry out such a massacre for over 10 minutes without anyone intervening, whether it was civilians or police, which, of course, we'll get into that they eventually did.
01:17But for so much time, they were able to just freely shoot into the crowds in Australia in 2025 is absolutely shocking.
01:27When I first saw this vision, Trav, and I was on my balcony with my seven-year-old, and we heard the gunshots start, and there were just so many, and you're right, it went on and went on, and we kind of went straight inside.
01:40I started to see some of the vision come through, and I saw the two men with black jackets on the bridge shooting.
01:46And I didn't have the volume up because I didn't want my little girl to hear, but my first thought, and it lasted for maybe half an hour, was that these were police because, A, no one was running around them or even close or kind of trying.
02:02B, they looked so calm and they looked so competent.
02:06And I didn't see panic or fear or kind of the scattering or some of the things, the attributes I would kind of expect from someone who hadn't done this before or, you know, clearly.
02:20Tell me about the style in which they shot, how much they would have had to have trained.
02:26Is it difficult to hit targets with those kind of weapons?
02:29They were obviously at a height on a bridge.
02:31I know that area incredibly well looks down on a kid's playground on a kind of grassy knoll there right before the beach.
02:37What did you make of their technique and what would have gone into the kind of preparation?
02:42And, you know, we'll find out more about ideology down the track, but they also, again, you make the point they don't look scared.
02:48There are reasons for that as well.
02:50Yeah, this is a very important point, and luckily there is a lot of video of this.
02:54And from the video, you can see that at the very least, the son, who I believe is 24 years old, named Naveed Aram.
03:02I'll tell you their names now, Naveed Akram, 24, and Sajid Akram, 50, father and son.
03:09So the father and son duo here, at least from the video of the son, he appeared to be the most competent and skilled.
03:16I actually just posted a video I came across, which was fairly close to him, where he's using a bolt-action rifle.
03:22Usually this is done for hunting.
03:24So it's possible that these six firearms, just so people are caught up here, they had six firearms on them, and they were all apparently licensed.
03:34Yes, one person had six as part of a license.
03:37These appear to be shotguns and rifles, which would make sense potentially if they were licensed for hunting purposes.
03:43And the way Naveed is firing the bolt-action rifle is actually quite impressive.
03:49Now, we can't see his aim.
03:51They are up on a higher perch, as you mentioned, which is incredibly strategic if you want to shoot into a crowd and not get shot back.
03:58Can I offer another word, Travis?
04:01Absolutely cowardly.
04:03But yes, strategic.
04:04Yeah, definitely cowardly as well.
04:07And they were shooting down into these crowds with a bolt-action rifle and shotguns.
04:13At least Naveed was in one of the videos, this bridge now infamous.
04:17And from how quickly he is shooting, he is firing, he is essentially making this semi-automatic rifle appear to be automatic in how well he is firing it.
04:29So he's definitely not an amateur.
04:31This is not someone who is brand new to shooting.
04:34Potentially, we're going to see maybe they had some type of firing range history or some hunting history.
04:42Having said that, whether it was at the firing range or hunting, the way he was shooting this rifle was as automatic as possible.
04:49And this is, you know, to skirt the laws that the West has about many automatic rifles.
04:54So, yes, sadly, a very impressive execution, pardon the language here, of how this terrorist carried it out.
05:03And they also found two improvised explosives on them.
05:07This was very professionally and meticulously planned.
05:10And I'm not sure they even thought how successful they would be and how much time they would have because the speed in which they were firing was extremely rapid.
05:20And they were not intervened for some time.
05:23I think maybe they even themselves may have been surprised how easy it was to gain this higher ground and to fire nonstop.
05:32There were some reports and, you know, police are incredibly brave and they do the kind of job that most of us would never do.
05:39But there were some eyewitness reports that inferred that police were frozen in, you know, some of them were not acting who were there.
05:47So we'll wait and let that, because that's fair to police, let that investigation play out.
05:52I want to ask you about this man who himself jumped upon one of the gunmen from behind, kind of wrapped his arms around, managed to take the shotgun off him.
06:03Of course, also then being exposed to the other gunman to turn his attention to, just an act of incredible bravery.
06:10I think Donald Trump has come out and said how courageous it was.
06:13What did you make of that and how, I mean, I might have held a gun once at a range for a story.
06:20I would not have any.
06:21And I think most people fall into that category, particularly in Australia.
06:24You mentioned our gun laws.
06:25They are insane.
06:27John Howard, the prime minister at the time after the Port Arthur Massacre, came in and did a phenomenal job there.
06:33This guy was brave.
06:34Like, what would he have been thinking?
06:36I mean, talk us through that, because it's so hard to comprehend.
06:39Look, what he did was absolutely heroic.
06:41Some reports are saying his name is Ahmed Ahmed.
06:45It's unclear, I think, or unconfirmed what his background entirely was.
06:50But what he did is what a man should do in this position.
06:53He hid behind a car out of the peripheral vision of the terrorist.
06:58I believe it was the father that he sort of tackled and wrestled away the gun for.
07:03He waited for his moment so that he didn't, you know, risk his own life at too much of a high degree.
07:11He grabbed him from behind, and he wrestled away the rifle seemingly fairly easy, which was just amazing to see.
07:19This is what we needed more of.
07:20And sadly, again, I'm not here to judge as much.
07:25But I will say the amount of time that went on with no one intervening, including the police, is unacceptable.
07:31This world right now, particularly in this assassination culture and explosion of Islamist terrorism, needs more of, again, if this is his real name, Ahmed Ahmed, we need more of those people who will jump in and intervene and risk their own life.
07:45Because this is what we learned from Columbine back in the 90s, that during mass shootings, you don't wait.
07:52You swarm in with as many people as possible, and you might even get harmed in the process.
07:58I believe Ahmed Al-Ahmed has two wounds, one in his arm and one in his hand, I believe, gunshot wounds.
08:06I could be incorrect and was in surgery.
08:08And that's what a man does, and that's what a society that does not put up with terrorism does, is we need to rush in sooner because there needs to be a deterrent, and we need to send a signal that terrorism will not be watched upon until the police come.
08:25We cannot rely on our police in the West.
08:27That is very clear.
08:28Absolutely.
08:31Travis, your insights are incredible.
08:34Thank you so, so much.
08:35I know that you also do the most phenomenal work when you look into who these people are, their online footprint, past behaviors in the digital space and elsewhere.
08:45I'd love to get you back on later in the week.
08:47I know there's too many shootings for you to keep up with, and this is very fresh.
08:51I'd love to get you back on after you have a chance to look at anything, if anything exists online with these guys.
08:56Definitely. Thank you.
08:57I appreciate that.
08:58Thank you for everything you do, and if people want to follow your work, please tell us where they can.
09:02Just check me out on any social media.
09:04Talk to Trav, the number, T-A-L-K, number two, Trav.
09:08And despite the horrific start to Hanukkah, I still want to wish all the Jewish people out there happy Hanukkah.
09:16Do your best to stay strong.
09:18Beautifully said.
09:19Thank you so much.
09:21Ladies and gentlemen, thank you so much for joining us for – I mean, it's not a very special episode.
09:26I wish it was an episode that we'd never have to do, but here we are.
09:31Tomorrow I've got an incredible guest, an Australian, Australian citizen, a Muslim man.
09:38They call him the Imam of Peace.
09:41And I tell you what, he has got a message for anyone who mentions the word Islamophobia that you need to hear.
09:48Thank you so much.
09:50If you enjoyed this episode, if you found it valuable, and when I say enjoy in an informative way, please share it.
09:57Please, please share it as widely as possible.
10:00Thank you so much again, and I'll see you tomorrow morning, 6 a.m. ET.
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