"O crime é um problema em todo o lado e Bruxelas não é melhor", defende o PM da Albânia
O primeiro-ministro albanês, Edi Rama, afirma que o seu país merece um lugar à mesa da UE, invocando as reformas e o apoio da opinião pública. Rama diz que o crime e a corrupção são problemas graves, mas não exclusivos de Tirana: "Bruxelas também tem crime".
LEIA MAIS : http://pt.euronews.com/2025/11/25/o-crime-e-um-problema-em-todo-o-lado-e-bruxelas-nao-e-melhor-defende-o-pm-da-albania
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00:06Now my guest for this year of conversation is Albania's Prime Minister, Ediráma.
00:12Sir, thank you so much for joining us.
00:15You are in Brussels holding talks about enlarging the European Union and joining the European Union.
00:22So the obvious question is, why does Albania want to become an EU member?
00:27Because it is what we always wanted.
00:30and that we finally can.
00:32So we came from a very long way
00:37and we were under different empires
00:42and finally of our own choice
00:49we want to join this empire.
00:53And, oh, you consider it an empire, the European Union?
00:56Of course.
00:57In what way?
00:57An empire, in all the ways.
01:02A nice one.
01:03A nice one.
01:04So, well, here's the thing.
01:05The question why I ask you why now is
01:08you say it's a nice empire,
01:10but, of course, it has been a very difficult
01:12three years now for the European Union.
01:15Obviously, the war in Ukraine is having a lot of impact
01:17in the European conversation.
01:19We've also seen this moment of either radical change
01:23for the EU or slow agony.
01:24Mario Draghi said that.
01:25So has the EU lost some of the gloss around it
01:28or you still believe there is still an opportunity?
01:30Listen, there are different things you are asking about.
01:36So on one hand, it's about how we see it.
01:42And on the other hand, it's about how Europe should see itself in this new world.
01:50When it comes to how we see it, we see it as the only place we want to be
01:57because it's the only place where certain things that we fought for are going to be guaranteed.
02:07And I'm talking about freedom, I'm talking about equality in front of the law.
02:14I'm talking about democracy in general.
02:18From my own angle, very humbly, I would say that Europe,
02:27it's not that Europe has lost something, it's that Europe should gain something.
02:33And when you look at the situation, however, in Europe, obviously the war is still going on.
02:38You say very humbly, I'm not going to tell the EU what they need to do
02:41because right now you're not a member of the EU.
02:44But you also said, I have my views of what Europe should be.
02:47What do you think the war in Ukraine is going to do to this continent?
02:50Well, the war on Ukraine is beyond Ukraine in a way.
03:01It's a very brutal signal of changing world, of gathering storms of geopolitics
03:13and of different ballgame in the international arena.
03:21And for that, Europe needs to come out with an approach that is not based on the old new normal
03:38because it's not going to come back.
03:41But it's based on how to make sure that it will not become irrelevant.
03:53So the war in Ukraine is a big test for all of us in many ways.
03:59And first and foremost, I believe in how much Europe will be able to, at the end,
04:10be a driving force for peace and not a force of war.
04:20You said it will depend on largely how this war ends, the reflection in Europe.
04:27If there's a bad deal in Ukraine, is that going to make Europe weaker?
04:30And is that a union that you want to be a part of, a weak union?
04:34Listen, it all depends.
04:36It all depends in this case because, let's face it, you know,
04:42it doesn't look very comforting that the European Union or Europe as such,
04:47the democratic Europe has not yet a peace plan for Ukraine.
04:52And this does not mean to compromise on the territorial integrity
04:59or to recognize the result of aggression in any shape or form.
05:08But it means to find a way to combine the resistance to the aggression
05:16with a realistic peace plan and to make the outmost for offering both resilience,
05:27resistance, muscles in the arena, and vision of the future,
05:36of a common future possibly, including Russia,
05:39when it comes to a path towards first peace and then cooperation.
05:48I know it looks like completely crazy to think in these terms today,
05:55but Europe has shown that enemies can become partners and partners can become friends.
06:05Of course, to go there, first and foremost, we all need to overcome the brutality of the aggression
06:15and to not reward the aggression, by no doubt.
06:18And that's interesting because a lot of the language that we hear coming out of Brussels
06:21says that Russia is now a threat for Europeans and there is no clear path
06:27in terms of normalizing relationships.
06:29Are you looking at Russia at a country that is, yes, a threat to Europeans?
06:33Or is there perhaps a way that you have to engage just because Russia is not going anywhere?
06:40Listen, one does not exclude the other in my view.
06:46The Soviet Union was a threat to the world and to the United States,
06:50but Richard Nixon and Henry Kissinger, they found a way to build in the same time
07:01a very solid channel of communication and to start something completely new in the world scene.
07:11Same with the communist China at that time.
07:13Now, of course, I don't want to make comparisons that may not fit the purpose,
07:21but I simply want to say that while fighting, and rightly so,
07:28while supporting Ukraine, and rightly so,
07:32while thinking in terms of strength, and rightly so,
07:39Europe should also have its own plan of peace and should not give up diplomacy
07:47because outsourcing the European diplomacy and outsourcing whatever type of peace
08:01that may come on the other side of the ocean,
08:04it doesn't seem to have been very rewarding so far.
08:09So when you say outsourcing, you mean to Trump?
08:11If there's no communication?
08:11No, I mean, no, but it's not to Trump.
08:16On the contrary, thanks to Trump, Europe rediscovered the word ceasefire,
08:22which seemed to be banned from the vocabulary with the previous administration.
08:29So I mean, it doesn't matter whatever happens on the other side of the ocean
08:35or whomever is on the other side of the ocean.
08:39Europe should have its own peace plan and, of course, then harmonize and then integrate and so on.
08:47Where is it?
08:47So when you talk to your European counterparts and they say,
08:50we want a just and fair peace, you don't think there's any depth to that?
08:53No, I am not advocating any unjust or unfair peace.
08:58I'm simply saying that diplomacy should not be left behind, although there is a war.
09:06You know, don't forget, you know, Israel and Hamas were fighting to the teeth
09:15and they were communicating, they were negotiating, they were talking.
09:18So this is something normal.
09:22And it's not a war somewhere.
09:25It's a war in Europe.
09:28And now going back to the reason why you're in Brussels,
09:32has it had any impact, the fact that there's this war going on,
09:35that now there's this real momentum on enlargement?
09:37Is this impacting you in a positive way where you say because of this war,
09:40now there's this impetus?
09:41If there had been no invasion of Ukraine, we would not be here.
09:44We would not be talking about this.
09:45It's very probable.
09:47And it's sad.
09:49It's sad that...
09:50That it took a war.
09:50It's sad that it took a war to turn the very just and right words in real deeds
09:58because it has always been said that the Western Balkans are strategically important
10:05for the European Union, that the future of the Western Balkans is the European Union,
10:10that one day we'll be together.
10:12But in the meantime, the process was quite disappointing in many ways.
10:21I must say that the aggression created a new energy.
10:31And this is also something very inspiring, as it is inspiring how Europe got together,
10:42as it is inspiring to read in the wall of this big building a very clear message of unity.
10:54And now you've entered what is now seen as almost a final stretch in negotiations,
10:58and then it will become a political question, too, because you have to win over the 27 heads of state.
11:03Who do you consider your biggest ally?
11:04Because to me, when I see it from the outside, George Amelone is your best friend in Europe, isn't she?
11:10Listen, I don't want to go there because it would not be fair to the very true and very generous friendship
11:28we are being offered by many in this part.
11:33But you have a special chemistry.
11:34You can see it.
11:34What do you like about her?
11:35Yeah, you now are curious because she's a woman, you are a woman.
11:41But I must say that when it comes to Italy, there is something very special between Albania and Italy in general.
11:50And all the Italian prime ministers, independently from their political party or political colors of the government,
12:05they have been very good to us.
12:06And with Georgia is special chemistry.
12:10I cannot hide it because it's very visible, right?
12:14And more than that, beyond that, she is someone that is very much about doing things and not just saying things,
12:27which is not very typically Italian, I must say, but she is like that.
12:32And would you be better off if there were more leaders like Georgia Maloney?
12:37Listen, Georgia is one of a kind, and I'm not sure she can be replicated.
12:44But by no doubt, more women in leadership positions will help Europe to be stronger.
12:53And this is obvious when you see the president of the European Union Commission,
13:01when you see Georgia, when you see Mette Frederiksen.
13:04So these women are incredibly strong, and they make men look like they have to improve.
13:12And, of course, when it comes to Albania, in a European context, we often hear it in the sentence, the Albanian model.
13:19I'm sure you know what that refers to.
13:21Obviously, this is a deal that you cut with regards to migration with the Italians.
13:25They now have set up this migration center, and their jurisdiction is applied, but this is your land.
13:31When you hear the Albanian model, a lot of people assume or think of it as a loss of sovereignty of a country,
13:37and that refers to yours, is that unfair?
13:40What do you mean sovereignty?
13:41We are...
13:42To have police from another country, law from another country, migrants from another country.
13:48You know, Italy is not another country.
13:50Italy is, you know, the Albania we look forward to have.
13:58So, Italians are Albanians dressed by Versace.
14:02So, we are the same people.
14:05We speak two different languages.
14:07We are united by the same sea.
14:12We love many things.
14:14But when you hear the dark side of the Albanian model, what does that mean to you?
14:18Is that something that you go, it is unfair, and by the way, more countries would do this if they could?
14:22First of all, not with Albania, because we can do it only with Italy, as I said, you know, because there are many reasons for that.
14:32And on the other hand, I don't care what people say, you know.
14:38It's good that people can say things.
14:40You don't care about this perception of a country that traded a part of sovereignty.
14:43This is why we love freedom.
14:46This is why we want democracy, because people can say whatever they want.
14:49You don't regret it in any way.
14:51No, what sovereignty, you know.
14:54Italians are at home in Albania, and we feel at home in Italy, so...
15:01The Italians don't apply your law.
15:03But it's up to them to apply their law in that piece of land where they have to manage this operation, which is theirs.
15:11And they asked us to do it, and we said, of course, you are welcome.
15:16It's your home.
15:17There's this idea that you are putting the police, the laws, and people from one country to another, and that you see the part of your territory for that.
15:25In that specific area, it's almost a piece of Italy.
15:28Some would argue there's something wrong in that model.
15:31But at the same time, I wonder if you think there's a level of hypocrisy, because more would do it if they could.
15:36No, I can't accuse anyone of hypocrisy.
15:39I simply think that people have different views.
15:42And sometimes people are jealous.
15:46But it's human.
15:47In this case, I don't know.
15:48I simply know that for us, it has been a due.
15:55So we had to do it, because Italy asked us.
15:58And when Italy asks, we always say yes.
16:01And, you know, it's not just Georgia.
16:05It's Italy.
16:06And do you hope that that yes, when they ask, we say yes, that they are going to return the favor at some point?
16:13Some argue it's a transactional relationship in a way.
16:16No, there's no transactional relation between Italy and us, because Italy has done for us a lot without any favor asked in return.
16:28And I'll never forget the day we were so down, because an earthquake hit us very, very strongly.
16:42And the first to arrive in our help were the Italian firefighters.
16:52And they entered under the rubbles to save lives of people they didn't know.
16:59In a country they put their feet for the first time, and they did it like heroes.
17:09And, Prime Minister, just a final question.
17:11You've said there's a lot of cliches and stereotypes about what Albania is.
17:15I didn't say that, but I agree with you.
17:19No, you've never said, because I've said this in a sentence where you said,
17:22Ah, somewhere, sometimes.
17:23Yes, there's ideas that have been presented about Albania that I find are a cliche or stereotypes of what Albanian people are.
17:30At the same time, some of your critics would argue what this collective imagination alludes to is this idea of perhaps mafias, crime, gangs.
17:38Is that something that you take serious and you say, well, it's not a stereotype, it's something we have to fight?
17:42And how do you do this dual path in which you change the narrative but also tackle issues like this?
17:49No, but the narrative has already changed and it's changing every day because now Albania is not anymore a mysterious shithole in the middle of Europe where everyone...
18:01I think that's how people perceive you.
18:03Everyone was imagining, you know, mafia and criminals and drugs and prostitutes and all the bad things.
18:13Now Albania is a shining example where millions and millions of Europeans come to visit
18:22and where they see that it's a piece of Europe that has to be part of the mosaic while in the same time do we have still issues with organized crime?
18:37Yes, we do.
18:39Who don't?
18:39Look at this city.
18:40This city is, you know, an example.
18:46And still there are great things happening here.
18:48Do we have issues with drugs?
18:52Who don't?
18:52Then, of course, we need to fight and the fight will never end as the example of Europe shows.
18:59Europe has fought drugs all the way but drugs are still in Europe and the fight goes on.
19:08And the commission also made that point so you agree on that specifically too and the recommendation.
19:13So, Prime Minister...
19:14I agree with all the recommendations.
19:16I've never seen anything more objective, more brutally...
19:21So, it was a good report.
19:22...more brutally truthful and more amazingly inspiring than the European Commission report.
19:27We live for this book.
19:29Well, we'll tell the commissioners you'll be happy to see someone read it and start to end.
19:33They know.
19:33They know.
19:34And we have some people that read it from the beginning to the end.
19:37I don't know how they survived it but they do.
19:39And I just adore them and I live for this book.
19:44Looking at this book, getting better and better, is the legacy of my political life.
19:51Well, on that note, Prime Minister, thank you very much for joining us on Euronews.
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