«اگر ما نه، پس چه کسی؟»: کمیسر اتحادیه اروپا جایگزینی برای پیمان مدیترانه نمی‌بیند

euronews (بزبان فارسی)

«اگر ما نه، پس چه کسی؟»: کمیسر اتحادیه اروپا جایگزینی برای پیمان مدیترانه نمی‌بیند  دوبراوکا شویتسا، کمیسر اتحادیه اروپا، از پیمان جدید مدیترانه در برابر انتقاداتی مبنی بر اینکه این ابتکار عمل به دلیل اختلاف منافع بین اتحادیه اروپا و کشورهای عربی در جنوب از همان ابتدا بی‌نتیجه خواهد ماند دفاع کرده است.  لب بیشتر : http://parsi.euronews.com/2025/11/21/if-not-us-then-who-eu-commissioner-sees-no-alternative-to-mediterranean-pact  مشترک شوید: یورونیوز به یازده زبان دیگر در دسترس شماست

Transcript

00:00Hello and welcome to the Europe Conversation. I'm Stefan Grober.

00:12My guest today is Dubravka Suica, EU Commissioner for the Mediterranean.

00:17And as a former mayor of the Croatian coastal city of Dubrovnik, she knows what she's talking about.

00:23Commissioner, thank you so much for coming on the show today.

00:26Thank you for having me today.

00:27So let's kick it off with the new pact for the Mediterranean that the European Commission presented a few weeks ago.

00:34What is the pact all about and why should we take it seriously?

00:39The pact is genuine pact, which means it's not only yet another document.

00:45It is a pact which we want to have with the southern neighbors.

00:49We already have different documents, agendas, so on.

00:52But this time we want to have a real partnership and we want to have these people as partnerships of equal,

01:00which means that we changed the approach this time.

01:03We asked these people and we consulted all 10 member states plus Gulf countries.

01:10And we didn't consult only governments, but also think tanks, academia, non-governmental organizations in order to have this pact.

01:20Because at one stage, people in the Mediterranean felt a little bit left behind because our highlight was on Ukraine, Georgia, Moldova, Western Balkans.

01:32Yeah, you were just alluding to it that we're already 30 years ago with the beginning of the Barcelona process.

01:38Then was the union for the Mediterranean, the new agenda for the Mediterranean.

01:42None of these things yielded any sizable results.

01:46Why should we be looking forward to seeing something different now?

01:51We put people at the center.

01:54We consulted people.

01:56And we also we are talking about economies, how to invite European companies to invest in that part of the world in order to develop them.

02:07So we are changing paradigm.

02:10They are not only receivers of our donations, but we want to help them to develop their industries, to develop their countries and to open new jobs.

02:22By opening new jobs, we are somehow tackling root causes of migration.

02:28So we are opening legal pathways for those who want to come to Europe.

02:31But at the same time, we are opening new jobs for these young people.

02:36You know that I'm also in charge of demography, so it is very important to put demography in balance.

02:42You know that they are booming in that part of the world.

02:44We are shrinking here in Europe.

02:46So it is very important to balance this.

02:48So by having these people here in Europe, it's not to create brain drain there.

02:54It's to have brain circulation and it's to give opportunity for those who are skilled and who are educated to come here,

03:03but at the same time to stay in their countries and to develop their countries.

03:09It's in fact a completely new philosophy around the Mediterranean.

03:12You know that we need energy.

03:15You know that we want to change to renewable energies.

03:18You know that we want to decarbonize the region.

03:20So if we decarbonize the region from this side, France, Spain, Italy, Greece, Cyprus,

03:28but if we don't use the same standards in the southern part of the Mediterranean,

03:33then the sea and the Mediterranean region will be polluted again.

03:37So we want to, by doing all this, we have win-win-win-win situation,

03:43opening new jobs, developing these countries, decarbonizing the region.

03:48So everything is there?

03:50There are critics out there who have already said that this project is dead on arrival

03:55by pointing to the various countries that we're talking about here.

03:59So take Libya, for instance, where the Russians and the Turks are major players.

04:05Take Algeria, Lebanon, Tunisia, who haven't shown any interest in Europe.

04:09And then Morocco, with which Brussels is sort of at loggerheads over the Western Sahara.

04:15Don't we have too much on our plate here?

04:19Are these interests just too different?

04:21I can reply with counter-question.

04:26Who, if we are not there, so who will be there?

04:30So we understand that there is China, there is Russia, there are countries who have interest in this part of the world,

04:36but Europe wants to be present.

04:38And we are saying that, you know, that we are always paying and we are the biggest payers to these countries.

04:45We don't want to be only payers.

04:47We also want to be players.

04:49And this is why we are changing now.

04:51Of course, it's not easy always, but we will do our best.

04:55You know that we have strategic partnership agreements with Egypt, with Tunisia.

05:00We signed one with Jordan.

05:02We are now just about to sign deeper strategic partnership with Morocco,

05:06because they are our neighbors and we want to be present there.

05:11And this is what we have been doing.

05:12Of course, it's not always easy.

05:14So I won't say that the project is dead.

05:17On the contrary, we will, of course, not celebrate,

05:21but mark 30th anniversary of Barcelona declaration on the 28th of this month.

05:28And this will be the moment to present this back to 10 southern neighbors,

05:33but also to 27 European member states.

05:36So it's up to us.

05:38It's up to us.

05:39So Ursula von der Leyen has said that the Commission's goal is progressive integration.

05:45Now, that seems a bit distant today.

05:49Can you name a few very concrete things about why people should be excited about this?

05:59So, of course, it's not about integration,

06:01but economic integration could come out from our cooperation with them.

06:07So it's also about skills and education.

06:13One of the most important flagship projects for me would be Mediterranean University.

06:19What is my goal?

06:20My goal is, and the goal of my colleagues,

06:22is to establish alliance or network of Mediterranean universities,

06:27starting from Beirut to Alexandria, Fes, Marseille, Barcelona, Naples and Greece.

06:36So to have curricula on Mediterranean at the existing universities.

06:43So we don't want to build new premises,

06:45but we want to connect young people from the region

06:47by connecting young people,

06:50by studying about their background,

06:55about culture, heritage, about religion.

06:58We can come closer.

07:00And this is our main goal,

07:01because Mediterranean,

07:03we want to have Mediterranean as the bridge,

07:06not as the conflict zone,

07:07which is at the moment.

07:09So we want to change the situation.

07:12And this is exactly why we are turning our attention to the Mediterranean.

07:16It's not only Mediterranean,

07:17it's also Gulf countries,

07:19although they are not geographically Mediterranean,

07:22but we badly need Gulf countries to have,

07:24we need them on board,

07:26in order to have peace and security in the Mediterranean, of course.

07:29So this is something which we are trying to establish.

07:33Of course, it's also about migration.

07:36I don't want to shy away from migration,

07:39but we want to stop migration by doing this,

07:43by helping young people to develop,

07:47and by helping young people to be part of this process.

07:51There are many projects,

07:54for example, in Egypt.

07:56In Egypt, we pledged,

07:58European companies pledged,

08:00after we signed this comprehensive partnership agreement,

08:04we pledged 49 billion euros investments in Egypt.

08:09So the same goes for Tunisia.

08:11In Jordan, we are just about to start some projects.

08:15So this is something which is ongoing.

08:17Morocco, you mentioned Morocco versus Sahara.

08:19We found a solution,

08:21and we are on good terms with our colleagues in Morocco,

08:25and we are looking forward to deepening this agreement.

08:29Speaking of solutions,

08:30and let me now pivot to the Middle East,

08:32which is also part of the Mediterranean family,

08:34and I'm talking about, of course,

08:36the first meeting of the new group being established by the EU

08:40to support Palestinians,

08:42the Palestinian Authority,

08:44and the reconstruction of the Gaza Strip.

08:48Tell us about this group.

08:49Who is in it?

08:51And what's happening next?

08:53First of all,

08:54you know that we are trying to strengthen the Palestinian Authority,

08:57and this is our main goal.

08:59This is the reason why we invested from 2021 to 2024,

09:03for 1.3 billion euro.

09:05And now there is a new reform matrix program for this year, next year in 27,

09:111.6 billion euro.

09:13Of course, this money will be dispersed upon conditions.

09:18Of course, conditions are reforms which they are obliged to do.

09:21What we are trying to do,

09:23there will be a Palestine donor group,

09:25and it will be established by the Commission,

09:28in co-ownership with the Palestine Authority.

09:32So I will be chairing this group together with Mustafa,

09:36prime minister of Palestine.

09:38So Palestine donor group is a new platform where we will discuss their reforms.

09:46We will discuss what we can do to empower them,

09:50to encourage them to be stronger than they are at the moment.

09:54Of course, Hamas is out of question.

09:57We don't talk to these people,

09:58only to the people of the Palestine Authority.

10:01So there will be,

10:02at this moment, so far as I know,

10:04there will be 60 participants,

10:06all 27 member states,

10:08plus states,

10:10plus the region,

10:11and some other people who were invited from our partner countries and allies.

10:17So we will be trying to show that Palestine Authority can,

10:22at one point,

10:24or could at one point,

10:26take over some of the services in the country,

10:29not only in West Bank,

10:31but also later in Gaza.

10:32Now, the Palestinian Authority is a kind of a controversial body,

10:36if I may say.

10:37The Gulf states, for example, that you mentioned,

10:40they don't trust it.

10:42How do you get along with these guys,

10:44and how do you pressure the Palestinian Authority

10:47to implement reform,

10:51good governance,

10:52transparency,

10:53fight against corruption, etc.?

10:55We need solutions.

10:57We have Hamas.

10:58We don't want to talk to Hamas.

10:59Then we need some regular authority,

11:03which is Palestine Authority for us.

11:05And as I told,

11:07the money which we are investing there

11:10is conditioned.

11:12And it's all the money which we pay

11:14for Palestine Authority

11:15is done under Pegaz mechanism,

11:17which means that none or no cent

11:21is being dispersed without conditions.

11:24Reforms, and this is what we have been doing.

11:27So who,

11:28if we don't have them,

11:30so who will be in Palestine?

11:33We need someone,

11:34also Israel,

11:35they need someone to talk.

11:37So who will sit at the table

11:38once the situation,

11:41the situation allows,

11:43who will sit at the table?

11:44Palestine Authority plus Israel,

11:47but they need to be reformed.

11:50And this is our precondition.

11:53To say that the EU is divided

11:56over the Gaza situation

11:58is a kind of an understatement.

12:00So there are some countries

12:01that have recognized a Palestinian state,

12:04others haven't.

12:06Does that complicate your job

12:09and getting reconstruction going?

12:13Of course,

12:13it would be much easier

12:14if all of them recognize,

12:16but it won't change the situation.

12:19We have to reconstruct Gaza,

12:22but not only us.

12:23Europe cannot do it alone.

12:25This is why I said

12:26we need the Gulf countries,

12:28but we also need

12:29the American administration.

12:30And this is something

12:31which we have to be open

12:33and clear on it.

12:34So now, as you know,

12:35we have this 20 points program,

12:38which means that

12:39we have to move forward.

12:41And this is the only way.

12:43Of course,

12:43we need Israel to have on board.

12:45We need them to release tax revenues

12:48for Palestine people,

12:49which is not the case.

12:51We need many different commitments,

12:54also from Israel.

12:55Of course,

12:56they are not in favor of two-state solution,

12:59but little by little,

13:00they need to say

13:01what do they want in the end.

13:03That ceasefire agreement

13:05that was established

13:06under the auspices

13:08of the Trump administration

13:09stipulates a board of peace.

13:12Will the EU have a seat

13:13at that table?

13:16If we talk about fair play,

13:21then we should have a seat

13:23in this peace board for sure,

13:25because as I said,

13:26we are the biggest,

13:28not only donors,

13:28but the biggest payers.

13:30And we are the ones

13:31who are involved.

13:33And they are our neighbors.

13:35We are the closest neighbors.

13:36So I think that

13:37we should have a place

13:39in this board.

13:40Which basically means

13:41Trump hasn't said,

13:42sit over here.

13:44Let's see.

13:46Let's see.

13:47This will happen.

13:48When talking about

13:49the reconstruction of Gaza,

13:50do you have an idea

13:51about the timeline,

13:52about the money

13:53that needs to be moved

13:56and invested,

13:57ballpark number?

13:58It was not by coincidence

14:00that Gulf countries

14:01are mentioned.

14:02So we need Arab countries,

14:04Gulf countries

14:05to be on board.

14:06We need them to invest

14:07and I'm sure

14:08that they will do it.

14:10Of course,

14:11we will also do our part,

14:14but Europe cannot do it alone,

14:15as I told you.

14:17And we are looking forward

14:19to this ceasefire

14:20to hold first.

14:21If this ceasefire holds,

14:23then we can talk

14:24about reconstruction.

14:25And I think

14:26that there will be

14:28a lot of money

14:29from different

14:30world money,

14:33financial institutions

14:35who will come on board.

14:37It's also about

14:37World Bank,

14:38it's about

14:38European Investment Bank,

14:40it's about EBRD.

14:41So all institutions

14:43should be on board.

14:44Now,

14:45all of this

14:45can only work

14:46if Israel

14:48and Hamas

14:49respect

14:49the ceasefire agreement

14:51that we just talked about.

14:52And I think

14:54the most crucial point

14:55here is the disarmament

14:56of Hamas.

14:58Will Hamas

14:59render the weapons?

15:01Do you see this coming

15:02anytime soon?

15:04I cannot tell you

15:06whether this will happen

15:07or not,

15:08but I think

15:08that this should happen

15:10because without

15:11laying down

15:12the weapons

15:13from Hamas' side,

15:15I don't think

15:16that there will be

15:17a ceasefire.

15:17so I'm sure

15:18that the world

15:20should pressure

15:21not only us

15:22for European Union

15:23but also Americans

15:25should pressure

15:25Hamas to do it.

15:27Commissioner,

15:28you're also in charge

15:29of demography

15:30and I've looked

15:32at the description

15:33of your official mission

15:35and it says there

15:37that you're responsible

15:38for,

15:38and I quote,

15:39steering the implementation

15:40of the demography

15:42toolbox

15:43to help member states

15:44address their

15:45demographic challenges.

15:47So,

15:48what is in your

15:49demographic toolbox?

15:51There is a lot.

15:53First,

15:53it's about women

15:54and families

15:56who should be

15:57in the labor market.

15:58When we talk

15:58about demography

15:59here in Europe,

16:00we talk from

16:01a competitive angle

16:02because we are not

16:04talking about

16:04birth race,

16:05mortality race,

16:06it's member state

16:07competence according

16:07to the treaty.

16:09But we have to,

16:11at this moment,

16:12there are 8 million

16:13European women

16:14who are not

16:14in the labor market

16:15because they have

16:16to take care

16:16about their kid

16:18or about their parent.

16:20So,

16:20we want to have

16:21all women

16:22in the labor market.

16:23Second,

16:24we want to have

16:25all youngsters

16:26to be in the labor market,

16:27not anymore those

16:28not in education,

16:30not in employment,

16:33so-called needs.

16:34But the problem

16:35is that they have diploma,

16:37but their diploma

16:38don't match

16:40to the needs

16:40of the labor market.

16:43We have new jobs,

16:44digital jobs,

16:45artificial intelligence,

16:47and green jobs.

16:48So,

16:49they need to be adapted

16:50and this is the reason

16:51why we re-skill

16:52and up-skill them.

16:54Then there is

16:54a key problem

16:55which is,

16:57which is,

16:58if we retire too early,

17:00if we retire too early,

17:02we create brain drain.

17:03So,

17:04this is also

17:04member state competence.

17:06You know,

17:06that happened in France

17:07when they started

17:08changing this pension age

17:10from 62 to 64.

17:13But since we live longer,

17:15we live 10 years longer

17:16in last 50 years.

17:18In Europe,

17:19we live 10 years longer,

17:20so we have to work longer.

17:21This is not very opportune

17:23for a politician to say,

17:24but this is something

17:25which we have to adapt

17:27our life expectancy

17:30to the working age.

17:33And this is all our laws

17:35and our legislation

17:36is adapted only to 65.

17:3870,

17:39but not to 80,

17:4090,

17:40100,

17:41which is now the case.

17:42And when we use

17:43all these three women,

17:45youngsters,

17:46and those who don't go

17:48early to retirement,

17:50we still need people

17:51in European labor market.

17:53And then there is

17:54fourth pillar

17:55which is legal migration.

17:58So,

17:58human capital is precious

17:59and unfortunately,

18:01we miss this human capital.

18:03We have a projection.

18:04If each and every

18:05European woman

18:07in the next five years

18:08who is in a productive age

18:11would have five kids.

18:13I don't know

18:13whether it's biologically possible,

18:14but in five years,

18:15five kids.

18:17If this happens,

18:18these kids

18:19will be ready

18:20for labor market

18:21in 20 to 25 years.

18:23in the meantime,

18:25China,

18:26India,

18:27our allies in America,

18:28they are booming

18:29and European competitiveness

18:31is being decreased.

18:33And this is the reason

18:34why we badly need

18:36people and human capital.

18:37On this population decline

18:40in the EU,

18:41what are the reasons

18:43and are there

18:44regional disparities?

18:46There are regional disparities,

18:48but the reasons are

18:49sociological,

18:51philosophical.

18:52There is no

18:53black and white reply.

18:58There are disparities,

18:59but

19:00there is no silver bullet

19:03to change this.

19:04So there should be

19:07a set of measures

19:08in order to change this.

19:10But as I told you,

19:11it can't be changed

19:13in a year or two.

19:17This is a long-term objective

19:18of the European Union.

19:20We have to work on it.

19:22Disparities,

19:23for example,

19:23if you look at

19:24the Baltic states

19:25in Finland,

19:27they have the lowest

19:28birth rate at the moment.

19:29Although they are

19:30very rich,

19:31they have all standards.

19:33So it depends on women,

19:35it depends on their...

19:36I cannot reply

19:39to this question

19:41in, as I said,

19:42in a white and black manner.

19:45I totally understand that.

19:47All right.

19:47Dubravka Suitsa,

19:48EU commissioner

19:49for the Mediterranean.

19:51Thank you so much

19:52for a great

19:52Europe conversation.

19:54Thank you for having me.

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