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00:00Hi, I'm Mara Webster with In Creative Company, and I'm so thrilled today to be joined by the
00:09fantastic cast from Inventing Anna. We're joined today by Julia Garner, Anna Klumsky, Laverne Cox,
00:15Katie Lowe's, Alexis Floyd, and Ariane Moyad. And Julia, I wanted to start by talking about a lot
00:20of the dialect work that you did for this character, because it's so fascinating in that
00:25you're playing a character who has a multitude of dialects in the way that she speaks. She has the
00:31fact that she grew up in Russia, that she moved to Germany, the American influence of watching a lot
00:36of television from there, and then the fact that she's coding and trying to avoid allowing the
00:40Russian inflections to come out, but they obviously seep to the surface at certain moments. And then
00:45the tone of her voice, which has a real lightness to it, but sometimes goes into the deeper spaces
00:50when she's feeling antagonized. And so I was really fascinated by the dialect work that you did
00:55to find that very specific accent for her, but also how you also then carried that through and
01:00utilizing a lot of different tones in your performance. Well, you know, the dialect was
01:04really important with just even with finding the character because they're, you know, Anna's a very
01:12like private person and doesn't love to give a lot of information about herself. But to me, the dialect
01:18is really somebody that is trying to be something that they're not. And that's also what the show
01:26is about too. It's about identity. But, but I feel like the, because this is somebody who was born in
01:33Russia, but convinced people that she was German. So she clearly doesn't sound Russian because people
01:40believed her enough that she was German. So the first thing that I had to learn was a German accent,
01:48German accent is like much more subtle. And I don't know, they don't sound, I don't want to say
01:55they don't sound excited, but it's like vocal fry at the end of everything. Right. But then certain,
02:02like, oh, anything with an L is like, oh, kind of Russian. So then you kind of have this words
02:10in between, like certain words, for example, that's kind of Russian, a little, very subtly,
02:17subtly. And then, you know, she moved to New York, and her accent got Americanized. So Americans, like
02:28musically, the accent is like an American. So if you notice, like Americans, they, it sounds like they have a
02:35question at the end of everything. Europeans are just much more matter of fact, like, you know, but
02:40Americans are kind of like, like, I'm really happy. Like, I'm really happy, you know, so, so I wanted
02:47her to sound like, I wanted her to sound like that if she was in Europe, she would sound American to her
02:55European. When she was in Europe, America, she would sound, you're like, you know, so it's a different
03:01hybrid of accents. So that was the main thing for me to really get to know Anna. Again, because this
03:10is a woman who's trying to be something that she's not, and it comes down with how she speaks. So
03:16yeah, it's very confusing. There's not a simple answer. It was, it's probably the hardest accent I
03:22will ever do. So yeah. And you did it amazing. Amazing job. Yeah. I was like, no, it's, it's been
03:33kind of tricky explaining this to people. Like, where's the accent? I'm like, I don't know. I have
03:37no idea. I mean, it's crazy. And, and jumping over to you, Anna, with, with your character, Vivian,
03:45you know, one of the things that's so impressive to see in her adeptness at the way that she approaches
03:49her work is, you know, she's, she's going and meeting with all these different characters
03:52throughout the series, and trying to convince them to be part of a story. And they're all
03:56resistant. And it's about how she kind of wins them over. And through the way that you're playing
04:00Vivian, we see that you create a different type of space for them. The way that she talks to Anna
04:05when she visits her at Rikers is very different to the way that she's trying to convince Todd to let
04:09her see discovery on the case or, or give her any information or the way that she's talking to
04:14Laverne's character. And so when you're going through the scripts and thinking about all these
04:18different characters that you're, you're interacting with in that way, and trying to sway over to your
04:23side, how did you find those different elements of, well, what does the other character want? And
04:27what does my character need to give them in terms of the space that she's creating?
04:31But that's, I'm, I'm, I'm thrilled that you brought that up. And it just started making my
04:35wheels turn about like, you know, more dramaturgy about our show, because I'm like, oh, my gosh,
04:40it's true. We all, we all switch and have different facets, depending on what we want to get from each
04:45other. And, and, you know, it's not just Anna Delvey who does that, right? She just does it
04:51really, really specifically and really, really well. But yeah, this is, this is the benefit of
04:58acting technique where, you know, I like to go scene by scene. And, you know, you analyze the scene and
05:06what you want from your scene partner. And when we're blessed with great writing, that is, that is
05:14kind of built in to the analysis. What you, what you witnessed, as an audience member,
05:21gratefully, is, is really, you know, my responding and doing my job with, with the text. Because,
05:31yeah, every, every, every scene between different characters has to reflect who those characters are
05:37and how they would speak to each other. And that's something that our writers and Shonda are
05:40so gifted at. And yeah, it's, it's just my job to, to make sure I, I try my damnedest to get it.
05:48As Vivian.
05:50No, you, you absolutely did. And Laverne, with your character, I was interested in, in how you found
05:55the specific energy of her because she's so keyed into and constantly talking about energy, kind of
06:01reading other people's energy, you know, and she's kind of one of the people that gets those spidey
06:06senses of like something doesn't feel right. And this is someone that I don't want to have close
06:09to me. You know, and because she's always trying to have that positive outlook when she is in
06:14situations with Anna, where she's very antagonized and she's trying to create boundaries. I was
06:19interested in, in the performance aspect in those moments, because it's still expressing her anger,
06:23expressing her frustration, but still kind of keeping the essence of her core of who she is the rest of
06:28the time as well. I think with Casey, when I, when I met with, often when I, um, approach a character,
06:40um, Susan Batson, my acting mentor has this, it's not hers concept, but she talks a lot about the
06:45character's tragic flaw and, and the way she defines the character's tragic flaw is the tension between
06:51the character's unfulfilled need in their public persona. And so when I met with Shonda, I often start
06:56with a character's flaw because that's often what I feel that you can play. And so I asked Shonda what
07:02she thought Casey's tragic flaw is. And it's a strange thing to, you know, sort of say about a
07:06person who you admire and respect and who's walking around. But, um, I think there's something very
07:11genuine in Casey that she really wants to help. She really wants to help. There's a moment in the
07:18interview that, um, that, um, Casey does with the writer's room where she, even as she's telling the
07:23story, she's like, you know, if I had a little more time with Anna, I think I could have
07:26helped her so that there was something very sincere, almost to a fault about Casey, about
07:33really wanting to be of service, really wanting to be there for people and help people. And,
07:38you know, I had the privilege of sitting down with Casey Duke for, um, we did have a four
07:41hour lunch. I trained with her multiple times. She told me her life story. And so I think that,
07:48that what is, what colors so much of, um, this kind of conflict in that particular, that scene
07:54when, um, Anna is sort of in the lobby, you know, and Casey's upstairs, you know, trying to get her
07:59groove back, if you will, and ends up, you know, sort of siding with Anna and wanting to, needing to,
08:07to be of service. And also not when Anna sort of threatened suicide, spoiler alert, it's this thing
08:14that Casey didn't want to sort of have on, sort of be responsible for. So there's this thing that's
08:20very genuine for Casey about wanting to be of service and wanting to help people. And sometimes
08:27that, um, is taken advantage of, um, obviously. Um, but I think of all the people, you know,
08:35watching the series, I think of all the people who were in Anna's life, I would say that Casey,
08:41I would suggest anyway, maybe I'm biased because I play Casey, but she had the, and she had changes
08:46that were the most pure. She was doing a job. She wanted to be of service. I don't think that she
08:51was ever had a space of using Anna. I think that a lot of people used Anna and had an agenda around
08:58her. And I think that, that their agendas that were not necessarily allowed them to be swindled,
09:06allowed them to believe the lies that Anna, um, presented to them because they had their own
09:13agendas that, um, were ultimately about using as well. And that, um, I think that's a great point.
09:21And, and Alexis, for your character with Neff, it's, it's really interesting because she starts out
09:25with an agenda and then the agenda becomes very secondary. Um, and, and how did you want to shape
09:31the dynamic with Julia differently in those two moments at the beginning where it's, you know, it's
09:35all about her dream of filmmaking, getting those tips and, and really kind of using her prowess
09:41professionally. And then when you have that tipping point in that shift and, and just what it means
09:45to Neff to have someone look at her and acknowledge her in that way, particularly in a workplace where
09:50she spends most of her working hours and people just look straight past her all the time.
09:54Yes, that's it. It's that moment when, you know, Neff, I sort of think of her as the keeper of the
09:59keys, but she rarely has the opportunity to use any of them. And then when Anna says,
10:04do you want to come to a party with me? I think it's a kind of world changing moment. Like suddenly
10:09she has agency, she suddenly feels she belongs. She's been invited instead of always feeling like
10:16she's knocking on doors or, or, you know, trying to wave her hands in the air that I'm here. I I'm
10:21listening. I have something to say. Um, and that is also the birth I think of their friendship. I
10:27think that's when they, they start to share more with each other. Um, they sort of cheer each other
10:34on, they become, um, you know, not just sort of entrepreneurs that are both trying to make a
10:42splash in a, in a big city, but they start to see that their womanhood, their independence,
10:48there are so many qualities that they share that are deeply personal. Um, and it allows for a real
10:53vulnerability between the two of them. And then that becomes the bedrock of, I think this sort of
10:58unshakable loyalty that Neff carries through, um, you know, even as the facade starts to crumble,
11:04there's something very true that Neff is sure she's tapped into. Um, and no one can really tell
11:09her otherwise. I think it's, it's powerful about the two of them. And, and Katie, with your character,
11:16you know, she was in this position where she ended up, you know, in huge amount of debt on her
11:19company credit card. And what I love about the, the experience of watching that is that as the
11:24audience, we never feel like she was a willing participant in handing her card over. And it feels
11:30like that's a really important crux of the story for your character. And it's because you're playing
11:33her in this way where she has such optimism and such belief in other people, you know, three months
11:38after she hasn't been paid back, she still believes that money is going to be paid back. And yet you still
11:42play her as a woman with agency and with intelligence, you know, we don't feel like it's
11:46naivety. And so how did you find that balance to make sure that the audience were kind of on her side
11:51and believed her version of the story and playing her in that way and finding that balance where
11:54we didn't see it as just, you know, why would you ever do that? We understood the reasons.
11:59Yeah, I, it was really important to me that I, that people feel like they would have made a very
12:09similar decision or at least questioned what they would have done in that situation. And for me,
12:15so much of that came through when we were able to shoot in Morocco, because I was actually concerned.
12:20I was like, I mean, it was there and it was in the script, but Rachel is one of the hardest
12:25characters I've ever played. And I, the moment we landed in Morocco, when we were at La Mamounia,
12:31I understood and was truly able, it was such a gift to be able to shoot there because I really felt
12:37like I was able to put myself in someone else's shoes. I, I felt afraid. I felt what she felt when,
12:45and when we shot those scenes with a lot of the wonderful actors and with Julia and feeling that
12:51those fears that you have had as a girl thinking these, these shows locked up abroad, all of these
12:58things, you know, you're, I mean, it was such high stakes and it was actually a really hard place to
13:04act for that amount of time. I mean, if you were to look at the scripts, every scene, it either says
13:09through tears, sobbing, you know, every scene that Rachel has is at a level 10. And she, when she's
13:17on the stand and she says the worst thing that has ever happened to her, for her, that is true.
13:23This is the worst thing that's ever happened to her. And you get to watch a loss of innocence of
13:28someone who has, for all intents and purposes, her whole life trusted people and has come at people
13:34with an open heart. And this is where she learns that not everyone is good and that you have to
13:41take life in your own hands and make a choice. And she does for better or for worse, but she is
13:44forever changed from that incident. And Arian, it feels like so much of the driving factor in your
13:50character's connection to this case with, with Anna, you know, it's not just about the professional for
13:55him, it's about the personal. And it feels like he almost admires and respects the fact that she was able
14:00to not only infiltrate kind of the elite circles, but to feel like she was part of it. And I was
14:06interested in how crucial for you that scene at the beginning of the show was when he's talking to
14:11his wife and describing how, you know, when they go to parties with her friends, he feels like the
14:15valet in the room, you know, he doesn't feel like he belongs there. And then how you took a scene like
14:21that and really carried that as a lot of his emotional motivations within a lot of scenes throughout the
14:25rest of the series. Yeah. Um, and yeah, that is so beautifully said. I mean, to be honest with you,
14:31um, that's, I'm an immigrant that kind of grew up in that kind of circle a little bit. I grew up in
14:37going to neighborhoods that, you know, I wasn't involved with or my family wasn't involved with.
14:43And so I understood that so deeply, um, always standing as the outsider and trying to like climb
14:48up a ladder of some sort. So in a way that, um, really kind of came very natural to me. And honestly,
14:54one of the things that I remember Shonda saying is that, um, you get, there's such a beat. There's
14:58always like, when you play a criminal defense attorney, there's always like a, Oh, one of
15:02these guys or whatever. Um, but she said something on the first day that we just kind of like,
15:08we're working together. She basically said, he's a good guy. Um, that's really trying to use this
15:13case to really like make a name for himself because he's a good lawyer. And so, so much of that
15:20upbringing. And he also is married to someone who is, you know, comes from money and power and
15:27privilege. And so in a way it's the essential, it's really weird how similar it is to the actual
15:34tell me, you know, climbing up the ladder as well, because you gotta, you know, as he says,
15:39take it till you make it. And so some of what he's doing is that. So I think that was a big
15:44crux of how I like started the, the work on playing Todd. Yeah. And Julia, jumping back to
15:50you, you know, I love the way that we gradually get to see more and more cracks in the veneer with
15:55Anna as things tighten in on her. Um, you know, and so the first kind of several episodes, she's
16:00very on point. She's delivering, you know, all of the truths that she wants to portray to people.
16:05And we're really not seeing it in a big way with other people. We're seeing it in really small
16:09moments in your performance. You know, she's turns around from someone and we see kind of a
16:14flicker in your eyes of like everything that she's processing, all of the emotions that are going on
16:19beneath the surface. And then obviously by the time we get to the court trial, we're really seeing a
16:23lot of that bubble to the surface. And so how did you want to kind of take those cracks in the veneer
16:27and make them really minute choices at the beginning? And then by the end, have it things that be things
16:31that she's fully expressing on the surface? You know, living with the mindset of Anna, what I realized
16:37is Anna's biggest fear is failure. And, and when I'm saying by failure, I mean, her biggest fear
16:45is really rejection. It, the, the, the fear of rejection is so deep rooted that she is so afraid
16:54to be rejected. And she's so afraid to fail that she will go to the nth degree to behave in, in such a
17:04way, which is crazy sometimes, you know, a better, better way to put it. But, but I actually feel
17:11like it, a lot of it has to do with also identity, not being comfortable who she is, feeling like
17:18she's not enough and that she's going to get rejected and that she's afraid that she's going
17:23to fail. I, but I can say, I, I don't want to speak on behalf of everything, everyone, but I feel
17:29like so much of this show is about identity and about the fear of failure. Everybody has their
17:36own fear of failure on this show of each character and deep rooted rejection. I feel like also that
17:44is a very big problem. I feel like in this day and age where people are putting themselves out there
17:51so much and their self-esteem is so unhealthy. It's like either here or there. And, and the fear of,
18:00of rejection and failure is, is so deep. And I feel like, um, I just hope that people can take that
18:08from this show in a way. I think, I think Julia, that's the psychological piece, but I think there is,
18:14there's a, there's a political, um, aspect for me around the show's themes that really feel like
18:20about the American dream. I think that Anna, um, in a very, you know, specific way comes to America
18:28to sort of like live the American dream. And what's interesting and fascinating to me about that
18:34is that so many people, you know, have done very much the same things that Anna did, you know,
18:39faking financial document, um, you know, getting loans based on fraudulent, you know, assets, you know,
18:45some of those people become the president of the United States and other people end up in
18:50jail. And so for me, I think there's this whole thing around like, what does, what, what constitutes
18:58success meritocracy? What does that mean and look like for different people from different backgrounds?
19:04If she were really a German heiress, would she have actually gone to jail, you know? And then her,
19:09what's so compelling for me about, about Anna is that she would rather go to jail, but have everyone
19:16believed that she was really close to succeeding in her goal of getting that loan, of convincing
19:23everyone that she was worthy of, um, you know, that $40 million loan for ADF. And that is, and that the
19:29failure piece, but it is also like this whole, it's the dream. It's the dream of, of, of, of success in
19:37America sort of drives her in this, in this. And I think that drive, everyone is very ambitious
19:43in this, in this show. I mean, um, Todd's character, um, you know, uh, Lexa, everyone is wanting
19:50that sort of redemption, right? That success. Vivian, everyone is looking for that next moment. I think
19:57Casey's fine. I don't, I don't know if Casey's looking for that, but, uh,
20:00but, but, but I can say this about, I feel like with Casey though, is that she's also, uh, I don't
20:08want to say afraid to get rejected, but, you know, to me, she always wants to make sure that everyone's
20:13okay. And that is kind of some weird, like codependent thing. Very, very subconsciously,
20:19you know, subconsciously in a way. So, you know, with love, with love for the real Casey Duke
20:25in my preparation, the word codependency certainly came up many times, uh, with a lot of love. Um,
20:32I, I just have to say, I have such deep respect for Casey having spent, spent, spent a lot of time
20:37with her. I feel like if people don't know who she is, she is a legend in the fitness industry.
20:42She, um, you know, is one of the co-founders of Equinox. She has trained everyone from Lenny
20:46Kravitz, Denzel Washington, Julianne Moore to Eve, the list can be, be, rex, uh, you know,
20:52she is a legend in her field who a lot of people don't know and should know. And I think we should
20:57have a lot of respect and admiration for her and what she's achieved. Madonna went to her workout
21:01class in the eighties, you know, so Casey Duke is a living legend in the fitness industry. And, um,
21:07and she is that because of, um, the service that she's provided to so many people for nearly 40 years.
21:14And I love that idea that you were both bringing up about that theme of fear of failure and Anna and,
21:19and Aryan, you know, that's so much of the connect between your two characters. They're both at this
21:23real kind of professional precipice and the fear of failure drives them so much. Um, and, you know,
21:28you take this relationship that's very distant between the two of them and then you bring them
21:31to a point where, you know, he's massaging her and kind of like cracking her back for her when
21:35she's having pregnancy pains. They're going out to dinner with their spouses, but they're still,
21:39you know, watching video clips of Anna the whole time. Um, and so how did you want to build that
21:43dynamic between the two of them that builds more and more intimacy, but is kind of interesting
21:47because it still always comes back to the intimacy and the connection being talking about Anna and
21:51having conversations about her all the time? Yeah. Um, yeah, I mean, I, I, I think we, we both,
21:59you know, should probably pop in at some point. Um, but I'll say, yeah, I, um, I think Anna seems to
22:07bring people together, you know, Anna Delvey. Um, and, uh, and I think that that's possibly,
22:13you know, I'm just, I'm, I love listening to all this cause it's just such like, you know,
22:17social behaviors is, is fascinating. And, um, you know, when, when we discussed like rejection,
22:25it just made me think about how with social media, you're so afraid of being rejected by the people
22:30who are immediately close to you that you just cast, like, it seems like a lot of people who use
22:35social media so much, it's casting the widest net possible. So as to hedge your bets the best way,
22:42um, to assure not being rejected from some tribe, from some, you know, belonging from some group,
22:50right. Um, oh, this group doesn't want me. I've got that group, right. It's, it's, it's just really
22:55connecting what you said, Julia. It's phenomenal. Um, and that said, yeah, for, for those of us who,
23:04who are playing characters, who are sort of kind of, I need to watch my language, who are hurt,
23:11um, from having been rejected, um, once or twice. Uh, and we see them and we catch up with them at
23:19that point in their lives where they're just like, really, really can't do another one. You know,
23:24it's, it's so alluring to have a group. It's so alluring to have a connection with somebody,
23:30especially when it's unexpected. Um, especially when you feel like you're the only one and maybe
23:35that person is the only other one who shares it. So it does remind me of like Rachel Casey and Neff
23:41and, you know, they had a group, you know, and, and Anna was the glue weirdly. And, and so, yeah,
23:48for Todd and Vivian, Anna is this glue and they're very, they get to be very privy to what they
23:56interpret is the real deal with Anna. Right. And everybody feels the same way. They get to have
24:03some sort of weird ownership and yet they share it and that brings them together. Um, you know,
24:09and so I think that, yeah, that's, that's, that's what we see grow between Vivian and Todd. And of
24:14course, towards the end, you know, you see them sort of grapple with the idea of, of not having
24:18that anymore. And, and they don't know what to do with that. All right. And what do you, I don't
24:22know what you want to say. No, I think that's so well said. I mean, so much of what you're saying,
24:26um, and what I'm feeling about this question and this, and this conversation is that, that Anna does
24:33bring people together. And I do think that we, at least for Todd and, and maybe for Vivian, um,
24:40there is a little bit of like, well, if a dude did do this, we wouldn't be here. I mean, let's just be
24:47real. And so there is an unjust thing that's happening here. And the fact that, you know, um,
24:55there, the whole book has been thrown at her and every charge under the sun has been thrown at her.
25:00There is a way of demonizing someone like that. Um, especially if they've been, she's embarrassed
25:06people that might be fancy and rich. Um, I can imagine, you know, cigar conversations with those
25:12gentlemen at the 1% being like, she did this to me. Oh, don't worry. I'm going to take care of this.
25:16So there is so much of that political aspect of it, Laverne, you were talking about that I really am
25:21fascinated about. And I think Vivian and Todd in a way kind of come together and understand that
25:29this is kind of, this is kind of not right what's happening here. And so, um, that, that really
25:36brings them closer together. And I think you're right. Uh, Anna Klumski is that, um, is that I
25:41think she is a glue. I think, you know, I would love to hear what Julie has to say, but there's,
25:46I'm sure she's the life of the party. I'm sure she's like fun and easy. And so I don't know,
25:51like there's so much about her that brings all of us together. I think it's really fascinating.
25:55Yeah. And with that idea of the fact that she brings people together, you know, Alexis,
25:59Laverne and Katie, that friendship group that Anna was mentioning between the three of them
26:02is so fascinating to watch all those scenes because there's such a power play dynamic.
26:06You know, if Anna's in a good mood, everyone's having a great time. You know, if she's sitting
26:10there surly on her phone, waiting to hear about her loans, there's a different energy that
26:13your characters all have to kind of carry for her. Um, you know, at the end of the day,
26:17you know, the dynamic of, of what that is, is always led by where Anna is. And so how did you
26:23all kind of like look at both Julia's performance and the scripts to kind of really always figure
26:27out what that dynamic in those group situations were? What's interesting, like, well, that what I,
26:32what I would say about that now, having watched the series in its totality, um, obsessively,
26:39by the way, when I was in Paris, is that it's the group that ends up in Morocco together
26:47because of circumstances is the group that Anna can control the most, right? That like, I'm there
26:54as a job, right? I'm there as a trainer. Um, we're all people who she can control and that like,
27:04she sort of figured it out and whittled it down to the folks she can control. And unfortunately,
27:09these are not people who have, who can afford, you know, $65,000 on their credit card, no problem.
27:15So, um, she's sort of in that. So that was what it was interesting watching it being in this space.
27:23It was, it was this very, again, Casey's there to for, for a job, you know? And I think that like,
27:30for her, it's not unusual for Casey to be flown all over the world to train clients. This is,
27:38this has been her life for decades. And so she's clear about being there to do a job,
27:45but then she can be hospitable and she can, you know, make small talk and befriend people and also
27:50sort of be, I don't, I don't want to say a mother figure, but like maybe an auntie figure or someone
27:55who has a bit more maturity and is able to sort of attempt at least to ground people and give them
28:01perspective. Um, but she's there as, you know, performing a service and in that service, you
28:07know, I, I have, you know, I just had hair and makeup people here, you know, who I've been working
28:12with for years and they like now go out and have coffee together and they like hang out, but like
28:18they're doing a job. So there's this thing of doing a job, but then having camaraderie with coworkers,
28:23kind of, even though there are other people aren't, everybody was working. Let's just keep
28:27it real. She's already in the position of power. You know, she, especially the Morocco episode,
28:32she's in the position of power. We're there on a trip in a foreign country under the rule that she
28:39is paying for all of this. You know, she invited us on this trip. So I think in Rachel's case,
28:47it's very much, you know, obviously I, Rachel really wanted to go to the gardens, but they didn't go.
28:53Because, because Anna Delvey doesn't want to go and isn't paying for that. And it isn't only until
29:00later that we realize she doesn't want to leave the hotel because the hotel, you can put everything
29:06on one card. Can I say this? I have to say this, may I say this? And I texted this to Katie, that
29:13moment when you are calling about your American, you get on the phone with the American Express girl.
29:19Do we all feel that? That was on the phone with Spectrum yesterday, trying to get some internet.
29:26And I, girl, that was so real. Like I was just anxious for you and scared. And I was,
29:32I knew what was going to happen. And I was going through it. That was like, so real.
29:38I'm so glad. Cause I honestly, you know, I think the whole series takes such a,
29:42you know, what's so cool about the writing and about this story. And I think why people are so
29:46fascinated by Anna Delvey is because you're, you're in, on one hand, you think it's a Robin
29:54hood story. And yes, like Arian has said, if a dude did this, or there are men who have done so
29:59much worse and they're billionaires and they're not in jail. Like, so there's that side of it.
30:03And now, and we watch her in the beginning of the series, especially conning, not great people
30:10or people who are super rich and have extra money to spare. But as soon as it, for me, when I, when
30:15I get to the Rachel sections and you are watching a con happen and a person's life fall apart, who
30:22isn't rich and who isn't a bad person, then all of a sudden things start to, I think change. And I
30:32think the, the series starts to change. And I think audiences, that cool area of a gray zone,
30:38where is Anna Delvey good? Is she bad? Is she right? Is she wrong? Is it evil? Is it okay? Like
30:45what, what are all of these things we just get to play in this gray area?
30:49I was talking about Neff's like the moment that same, like that similar moment when it's like,
30:54oh, like you feel it in your gut, just that thing where you're like, oh, life is dandy. And then like,
30:59why is this affecting me so much? Like, why is this possible, um, lie hurting so much? And that,
31:07yeah. Yeah. It's beautiful.
31:08Which Neff moment was that for you, Anna? Do you want to just finish that real quick? I'm curious.
31:12I was, I was referring to like, it was when we start to see the human cost, basically,
31:17and the emotional and human cost. I, I really, you know, you start to, I felt like you, you really,
31:23it really drives home in, um, when we watch Neff go through, um, the, the, you know, whether,
31:31whether she's paying or not moment. And it's, it's, I don't know, there's, it's beautiful. It's,
31:36we think that it's here and then it goes, whoa. Yeah, absolutely. And I'm so sorry. We could,
31:41I'd love to listen to you guys talk about this all day, but no, we have to wrap up so you can
31:44jump into other calls. Um, thank you so much. Congratulations on the season. It's really
31:48fantastic. Thank you, Laura.
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