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00:00Hello and welcome to ETV Bharat. My name is Nisar Dharma. Today we have with us a very special guest, a human trafficking activist and the founder of Impact and Dialogue Foundation, who is now also a recipient of Ramoji Award of Excellence, Ms. Pallavi Ghosh. Welcome Pallavi and congratulations.
00:18Thank you so much.
00:19Pallavi, I was just going through the field of work that you have. It is a very unique field that you have chosen and at the same time it is something that is, you know, a little fraught with dangers. So, beginning your journey as a human trafficking activist at the age of 12, I mean, how did you take this decision?
00:38It is not like I decided to be an activist at the age of 12. I saw something. I saw an incident and that kind of, you know, you can say that is so a seed inside me. So, after that multiple incidents happened one after another. So, it was a missing child who went missing from somewhere in West Bengal and the father was searching for this child and he kept coming to me all the time.
01:04I am basically a Bengali, but I am from Assam. So, he was continuously coming to me and telling me and asking me where his child was. So, honestly speaking, that did not bother me. My only query was like a girl goes missing from a village which has just one entry and exit and how is it that nobody knows about it.
01:22So, from 12 till the age of 19, multiple incidents happened one after another and those were incidents that happened organically. Nothing was planned and finally I got to know on my first year of graduation that one of the reasons of missing children is trafficking and that's when I decided that I want to work in trafficking and then after that one after another incidents happened.
01:46So, I joined an organization. I joined an organization. I started working in trafficking. So, yeah. So, that's how it is.
01:51So, you were primarily based in Bengal or you moved and, you know, started working in other states as well?
01:57So, I was born in Assam. I did my studies in Delhi, but I got introduced to this whole thing of trafficking in Haryana and Rajasthan.
02:06And then I started working. So, I was working in destinations. So, in trafficking there is source, transit and destinations. So, I started working in Delhi, Haryana, Rajasthan and all.
02:13But finally, I figured it out as a young activist that everyone who was working in trafficking were working only in destinations.
02:21So, there is no point. So, if you want to end the crime, then you have to go to the source from where it originates. So, that's when I decided that, you know, I should go to the source.
02:31So, that's how I started working in West Bengal, Orissa, Andhra Pradesh. The first girl I rescued was from Guntur, by the way.
02:38The first girl I rescued. So, and then that's how I went to North East.
02:42Yeah. Talking about rescuing, you know, survivors or we won't call them victims. You have around 10,000 survivors whom you have rescued and impacted 75,000 women and girls.
02:55It is a very strong, an emotionally strong atmosphere it would be. So, how do you keep up with it? And, you know, how do you maintain the temper and ensure that, you know, you keep on going and doing this work?
03:05To be very honest, you have to work with police. So, I get an information and then I have to go to the local police station.
03:11I have to convince them and then with them only I can go for rescue because we are not authorized, because we are not law enforcement.
03:17So, there are times I remember that, you know, it's mentally very traumatizing and exhausting.
03:24But, like I remember my first rescue, the girl I had rescued. So, I remember her mother traveling like 10 hours with a watermelon.
03:33Because she did not have anything to give me. And then after her deposition in front of the court, she told me something. She was elder to me. I was younger to her.
03:45But the statement that she told, stayed with me till now, she told in front of the magistrate, you know, my mother gave me birth, but she is the mother who saved me.
03:56So, I think, I don't know, like maybe because at a very early age I saw all this. So, this and incidents like this has happened.
04:04There are people, those who don't have anything. But, you know, they travel all the way getting maybe a jaggery for me. Or maybe there is this girl who sends me cards in New Year with the flowers from a garden.
04:18So, I think this, all these things, money somewhere can't buy. And maybe because I was exposed to this at a very young age. So, that is the reason that emotional, sentimental thing always has been stayed.
04:29So, that's how I keep it up. So, that is how I kind of push myself. You can say. The human connection. Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
04:35I was also going through the work that you have. You talk about three Ps, prevention, protection and prosecution. And they seem to be central to your mission.
04:43You know, your work revolves around them. So, which of these in your experience, you know, it's the toughest one to achieve and why?
04:51The toughest is prosecution. Because you can say like thousands have rescued. But there has been only seven convictions.
05:00The problem is that starting, everybody thinks that rescue is easy. But the main struggle starts post-rescue.
05:09What happens? I will tell you about this girl only had rescued from Guntur. So, it was such a strong case.
05:13And we were convinced that there will be conviction. But what happened? Because of Indian judiciary, unfortunately, the case continued for 10 years.
05:22And after a point of time, the victims turned hostile. So, everybody was like, why the victims turned hostile?
05:26Now, tell me something. Some crime happened with me 10 years back. Every year I have been called to the court and I have been asked the same thing.
05:36So, I am reliving the trauma again and again and again. At some point, they are like, whatever happened, happened.
05:41I want to let go of it. So, that's the problem. And then, this is one of the main reasons, you know, prosecution is tough. But if you talk about prevention, prevention is equally tough.
05:52Because I work in North East now. So, when you don't have two square meals a day, a lot of people tell me that they come by their own choice.
06:02They go by themselves. It's very easy to say for somebody who is staying in Bangalore, Delhi or Hyderabad, because you don't have to worry about your second meal.
06:11The place where I work, you will not believe people literally boil water. People literally boil leaves. And the water they get from there, with that they eat rice.
06:23So, when there is so much, and this is, I am talking to you about 20th century, our country. When there is so much of poverty, the moment you say that, come, let's go to Bangalore or Delhi, you will have a better life.
06:36People will go. And that's how this trafficking thing has started, you know, increasing so much.
06:43Exploiting the factors that…
06:44Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
06:47I understand it might be difficult for you to recall or it would be a difficult experience. Could you, you know,
06:52talk to us about one of the rescue operations or a survivor story that stayed with you, or that is sort of a motivation for you always, whenever you feel like, you know,
07:02I should take a step back or, you know, it's too dangerous or something like that.
07:05There are hundreds of stories, but this particular story, because this is the youngest child I had rescued. It was a four-month-old baby.
07:11And this was a case of 2013, I remember. So, I went as a decoy with crime branch. So, this child was to be sold in Middle East.
07:21And, of course, my appearance doesn't look like, you know, someone from the Middle East. So, I went as the maidservant of the person who was going.
07:31And we had like 10 lakh counterfeit currencies. And I went as a decoy and I rescued the child. It was a four-month child.
07:38And so, there was a big trafficking racket going in the NCR, Delhi NCR. And there was this compounder who has, who had, you know, told everybody that he is a doctor.
07:53He and the midwife, as nurse, they were running this business. That child stayed with me for two days. And then, this was 2013.
08:02And till now, I am going for witness in this case. Till now, the child is now 12 years old. A family has adopted her.
08:11Sad part is that the child's mother had trafficked her.
08:13And everybody was against the mother, asking that why the mother trafficked her.
08:20But when I heard the story of the mother, in one way, I also realized that she was also a victim of the system.
08:28Because the father used to, you know, sexually exploit the mother every day.
08:32So, what the mother decided, the mother, this was the third child that the mother was selling.
08:36So, the mother told that she was selling this child because she did not want to see what will happen to the child.
08:42So, this was her way of not knowing. So, this case, still I am going.
08:45So, this case remained with me. And this has actually motivated me a lot.
08:50Because I have seen a child from four months to now, you know, 12, 13 years.
08:54So, this is something that has stayed with me. And then, there are other survivors also.
08:58There are multiple other stories also that has remained with me.
09:00There is another woman I had rescued from, who was 56-year-old woman.
09:04She was rescued from Haryana.
09:06It was such a sad story because she was going to be married to a young man who was younger than her son.
09:13Because she looked short.
09:15And that guy was intellectually disabled.
09:19The entire village had bought her by selling a cow and a land.
09:22And I rescued that woman. She was a 56-year-old lady.
09:24But she looked like, you know, people thought that.
09:27So, these two cases I can recollect now.
09:28There are hundreds of stories like this.
09:31In the Delhi NCR, was the family also from Delhi NCR?
09:34I mean, yeah.
09:35They were also from Delhi NCR.
09:37We actually, the case is still in investigation.
09:39But we are not able to, the conviction has not yet happened.
09:42Because someone or the other is missing.
09:45The witness does not come.
09:46And you know, unfortunately, our Indian judiciary is always dependent on witnesses.
09:50So, that is the thing.
09:50We understand that traffic is not something new.
09:54You know, it has been happening several decades ago.
09:57We could say it happened in the past century as well.
10:00But now, with the age of internet and technology, do you think it has impacted trafficking in what ways?
10:06Yeah, absolutely.
10:07You will not believe it.
10:08Earlier, it was so easy for us to find the traffickers.
10:11Now, it is impossible.
10:13It has kind of become impossible.
10:14Because with Aadhaar card, with one Aadhaar card, you can get 8 to 10 SIM cards.
10:22Like, if you have one ID card, you can get...
10:24And after making one call, they just, you know, what you call...
10:26They break the SIM and they throw away.
10:28That's the reason I tell everybody that, you know, whenever you go to photo stat your Aadhaar cards or your passports,
10:34please make sure wherever you are giving your document, trash it.
10:37I'll just tell you a recent incident.
10:38Like, a couple of months back, what happened?
10:40There were four engineering students.
10:42They had actually found somebody on the Uttarakhand road.
10:46A girl had made a call.
10:48And, you know, under the common intention, these four guys were nabbed.
10:52Because when we were telling the calls, their phone number had come.
10:56So, you don't know who gets trapped when.
10:58So, with internet, it has become more risky and also with dark web.
11:02Because dark web, you can.
11:03And then with satellite system, like, for example, maybe you are in Hyderabad.
11:06But you are showing that you are somewhere in Afghanistan.
11:08Or maybe you are somewhere in Middle East.
11:10And this with social media apps.
11:12I'll just tell you an incident what happened.
11:13There was this, like, two years back, no?
11:1720, 2024, January.
11:19I get a call from my very good friend in US.
11:22That her friend's sister's daughter was missing.
11:26From somewhere in East India.
11:28I cannot disclose the details of the case.
11:30And the child's parents were civil servants.
11:33The child went missing.
11:35So, they called me.
11:36Now, I am not some CID officer or some CBI.
11:39I just told them, start scouting her social media.
11:42They started scouting her social media.
11:43They were not able to find anything.
11:45But after doing a lot of hunting, because there was a lot of pressure from the government,
11:50civil service service.
11:51They found that the girl was chatting with somebody in Discord.
11:54Discord is an app, like Slack and all.
11:57And then, we have never done a rescue like this.
12:00We literally were, you know, opening people's faces from blankets.
12:04And then, we rescued the girl.
12:06After the girl was rescued, when she was asked, like, what is the thing that you are missing?
12:10Because generally trafficking, mental poverty.
12:12She told something which remained with me.
12:14She was like, my parents are very rich, but my parents don't give me time.
12:17They've given me smart work.
12:19They've given me tablets and everything.
12:20They don't have time for me.
12:22They're so busy with their office and all.
12:24And then, we had to tell the father that, do you spend time with him?
12:26The father was like, yeah, I spend time with her.
12:28I drop her to school.
12:29So, I think parents think that, you know, putting their children in IB schools and giving
12:34everything, that is the reason now trafficking has increased to the, you know, elite society
12:41also.
12:41So, it was like, you know, trafficking is only with people who are poor.
12:45But now, people from the, what you call, the middle class society, from the elite, they
12:51are also into trafficking.
12:52Even if they are not in trafficking, they are into this cyber entire thing.
12:56And they are into, recently somebody told me that she was allowing her child play with
13:01all these games.
13:02And then, suddenly, somebody told her that child, the child's photo was in a porn channel.
13:08And then, they figured it out.
13:09The child was playing with all those phone.
13:11And with that camera, the child's photo was clicked.
13:13So, with internet, it has become much more and there is no limit, you cannot control because
13:19all your data is out.
13:21So, this is a big problem and there is no way to, you know, control this.
13:26How do you control it?
13:27It is quite scary.
13:29Now, if we come back to the Impact and Dialogue Foundation now, since it is so fluid, you know,
13:36you have to understand the situation and then there is internet and, you know, there are
13:39so many factors involved.
13:41How do you make sure that the training part, you know, in Impact and Dialogue Foundation,
13:46how do you provide skill training and counselling?
13:48And how does that transform, you know, when you talk to witnesses or you talk to the survivors?
13:55How does your training impact it, the overall work?
13:58So, what we do is that we have, I have realized one thing that, you know, prevention is better
14:02than cure.
14:03So, what we do, we, so there are three safe spaces that we have.
14:07One in Meghalaya, one in Assam and one in Bengal.
14:10What we do, we train the girls.
14:13So, we have three categories of girls.
14:16One is girls, those who don't want to do the conventional education.
14:19So, we give them a one year of training and then we send them back to the village where
14:24they can, like, it's like a more of a ripple effect in, like, I am trafficked, now this
14:30is my experience, now my village will know that no more girls get trafficked.
14:35This is one category of girls.
14:36Second category of girls is like, we have memorandum of understanding with different organizations
14:41who teach the girls, like maybe they want to do something like this certification course
14:46and third is the category of girls who want to do conventional education because everybody
14:50say like, sabko padao.
14:51But, you know, honestly speaking, not everybody wants to study.
14:54So, these are the three categories and what we do, we don't go to the village.
14:57Like, our objective is, so that is the primary reason we don't want to open a branch of the
15:02organization everywhere.
15:04I was very clear since the beginning.
15:05Honestly speaking, I did not even want to open an organization because I was like, there
15:10are so many NGOs, why to open an organization?
15:11The reason to open the NGO was during Corona, I had got cases of children who were Corona
15:18positive and declared dead.
15:21On investigation, we found out that there was a huge organ trafficking racket that was
15:24going on.
15:25So, that is the reason the organization was started.
15:27But then we were like, NGO will come, rescue you and go, no, it should not be like that.
15:32The community should be, you know, empowered enough.
15:35So, that is the reason we, our focus is on empowering the community.
15:38And it has helped us a lot because, you know, when the community is empowered, when they
15:42know that they are accountable for their children, then they, it can go a long way in prevention.
15:47So, that's how we are kind of taking a village.
15:49Like, I have a, now, we recently had a graduation ceremony in one of the village in Lanka, which
15:54is in North East India, Hojai district.
15:56What we do is that, we take one didi, we train the didi.
16:00Under the didi, we keep 10 other girls.
16:02Tell the girls, teach the girls and then they go to 10 other.
16:05So, that's the approach and that has really helped.
16:07So, this is how we are trying to, you know, train the girls, mobilize the girls, tell them.
16:12Has local panchayats also been a, you know, part of that?
16:15Local panchayats, yes.
16:16Because you have to, we have created this thing known as village response committees.
16:21We won't call it village vigilant committees because we don't want to be stalking anybody.
16:24Where you should know that if your child has gone to Hyderabad, is the child calling you?
16:29Or how much of money is the child getting?
16:33Is the child being exploited?
16:34So, you have to make that village responsible.
16:37NGO will come, NGO will make police.
16:39That's not like that.
16:40You have to make and that will happen when you keep making them believe that they are
16:45a part of the ecosystem.
16:47What happens with NGOs mostly?
16:49NGOs go, do the work, come back.
16:51We do a, we do a regular mapping.
16:53Like, today we are doing this work.
16:54After three months, what's happening?
16:56Did it impact?
16:57How many cases were registered in the police station?
16:59How many child marriages are stopped?
17:01How many people have actually gone and questioned?
17:03And that is the reason we have not been able to impact that much because it's to and to
17:07and fro, to and fro.
17:08So, that's how we try to manage and it has really helped.
17:12Aren't you worried about your personal safety?
17:14I mean...
17:15That's one of the reasons I don't stay in Delhi anymore.
17:17Like, I was just telling, I was just telling the team that, you know, I, it is, thanks
17:23to ETV, it is because of ETV only I came.
17:25Generally, I have stopped giving interviews.
17:27The reason is that, one, I, I don't go for any interviews.
17:32I had gone for, there was a rescue that I did in Noida and I went for a podcast as
17:36to give awareness, information.
17:39And that podcast went viral.
17:41Like, 10 crore people saw it.
17:43And then, that entire informatory podcast was made as a sensational reels.
17:49Okay.
17:50So, and I was hounded for a year.
17:54Like, literally, I can't go anywhere.
17:55Flight people are, because my voice is also not like a typical woman's voice.
17:59So, flight may people are identifying me, cannot place me, identifying me.
18:03So, I am worried about my safety, definitely.
18:05But then, I don't, I follow certain protocols and I try to keep my life as discreet as possible.
18:14Yeah.
18:14I think that should be the way to go.
18:17Now, this moment that you are here and, you know, you have been awarded with Ramoji
18:22Award of Excellence.
18:23What does it mean to you and, you know, for your work?
18:25To be very honest, I was not expecting the award, first of all.
18:30ETV…
18:31How did you get to know about it?
18:33So, the thing is that ETV has been following my work for a long time.
18:36I think ETV, and not because I am sitting here, I would not flatter.
18:42I don't flatter anybody.
18:43But ETV has genuinely covered my work in the most honest way.
18:47Yeah, I remember editing one of the stories.
18:49Yeah, most honest way because there are so many people who have interviewed me.
18:53Either it's an exaggeration or it is too much of something which I don't even know.
18:58So, then when I got this message, initially I was like, there was this message that there
19:03is a good news for you.
19:03I thought that maybe another story will be.
19:05I was in Northeast, I remember.
19:07And then next morning I was given calls from everywhere, Guwahati, everyone was calling
19:11me.
19:12And then when they said that they will give me the award, I was initially, I was like,
19:15I did not know how to work, like on what context.
19:20And then they said that they saw the award and everything.
19:22I think more than the award, it's like, it is to understand because my field is something,
19:27no, people don't want to talk about.
19:29I'm being very honest.
19:31In Bangalore, nobody wants to talk about.
19:33I sit with all the investors.
19:35They are like, we love your work, but you know, please don't tell us.
19:38We get triggered.
19:39I'm talking to you about people who are investors.
19:40They are like, they will be like, please don't tell us.
19:42It's too triggering.
19:43I still remember I was sitting with a very big investor and he was telling me, so I
19:49took him to Bombay with me and there was this place known as Kurla where he was telling
19:54me, there is no child labor, don't worry.
19:56So I made him go with me to this place where there was a small boy who was stitching shirt
20:02buttons and that boy was getting five rupees, five rupees.
20:08I think for four buttons, he was getting 20 rupees.
20:11And this man was standing with me.
20:12And this man was asking that boy, okay, milta hai kya itna?
20:15And that boy was from Bihar.
20:17That boy was like, peace rupee hai milta hai.
20:19And then that man looked at me.
20:21So the problem is that people think that, and now we don't even talk about trafficking.
20:26We are talking about modern slavery out here.
20:28People think that, you know, if I maintain this, you know, ostrich ka approach, we will
20:33not be able to see it.
20:34But it's still happening.
20:36It's happening in Bangalore.
20:37It's happening in Hyderabad.
20:38I still remember going to this village where I see girls plucking this chili, red chili
20:44and getting 50 rupees for plucking chilies, 500 red chilies.
20:49So nobody talks about it because we are not, we are not bothered.
20:53So I think more than getting the word, it's also important to understand that people should
20:58know about this issue.
20:59So that is what is the most important thing I feel.
21:01So for that reason, I am really grateful.
21:04Finally, what would be your message to the young Indians?
21:10I know the field is something that, as you said, people want to stay away from it, even
21:14though it is happening in the society.
21:15But there are people like yourself, they would be more who would want to work in this field.
21:19So what would be your message?
21:20How do they start or where do they start?
21:23I think the first thing is that, please be very sure that you want to work in this because
21:28many people started with me, but they left because it's quite triggering.
21:33One, second is that initially my extended family members and everybody was really angry with
21:40me, like such a bright student, what nonsense she is doing.
21:44I still remember.
21:45But 10 years down the line, it has 180 degree angle changed.
21:49Now everybody is like, you know, she was our student.
21:51She is my relative.
21:52So I think if you really want to work in this sector, you have to understand there is no
21:56shortcut to success.
21:57There is no shortcut.
21:59You have to be consistent, determined and there is this whole thing of sincerity and
22:06dedication important.
22:06I was just telling Lucky Money who accompanied me that, you know, if your intent is good,
22:14universe will conspire.
22:16Believe me, when I started five years back, I still remember I faced so much of issues.
22:21Even now I am shaped, even now I am facing, I constantly have issues with funding and support
22:27because nobody wants to support survivors because the red light areas are rescued, brothels
22:32are rescued.
22:33But somewhere from something happens and I get the support.
22:37So I think if your intent is good, the universe will conspire.
22:41So I think that is very important.
22:43Whatever you do, you should know that you are up, are your intentions good?
22:48So I think that is important.
22:49If your intentions are good, then somebody from somewhere will definitely help you.
22:52I think that is very important.
22:54We wish you all the best for your work.
22:55Thank you so much.
22:56Thank you for joining with us and congratulations on the GAN.
22:58Thank you so much.
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