Watch ORF fellow Soumya Awasthi as she unpacks how Jaish-e-Mohammad has evolved its ter**r infrastructure using digital means -- leveraging social media, online gaming, cryptocurrencies, AI, and more. She draws attention to the lethal potential of AI in indoctrination, misinformation, and terror financing amid the backdrop of the Delhi Red Fort blast. Find out about the shifting radicalization process, funding methods, and the urgent need for a cohesive counter-strategy to combat these new-age threats.
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NewsTranscript
00:00So with us today is Soumya Vasti. She's a fellow at the Center for Security Strategy and Technology
00:15at the ORF Think Tank. Her work focuses on counter-terrorism, technology-driven threats
00:20and India's national security. Thank you so much, Soumya, for speaking with AsiaNet News
00:25on the Delhi Red Port blast incident and giving us a perspective on how technology is actually
00:32helping these terrorist organizations to fund themselves to have a greater influence
00:39in other countries as well. So first of all, I want to begin by talking about the shift in
00:44radicalization process. Earlier, we used to hear a lot about how people are getting radicalized
00:50in brick-and-mortar infrastructure like Madarsars or different other infrastructures.
00:55But now it is shifting more and more on digital platforms. If you can talk about that.
01:02Thank you, Hina, for having me on your show.
01:05Yes, radicalization methods have changed. It has become a little more, you know, expanded
01:13in its methods. Earlier, we used to hear about how Madrasas and Mosques are only responsible
01:20for radicalization. But now I'm seeing a trend in last few years, maybe five years or six
01:27years when more and more people are getting radicalized through digital space. Now, if I
01:34talk about digital space, there are two broadly, two ways. One is through the, of course, use
01:39of social media. Because we, as the youth who is getting radicalized, and otherwise as well,
01:47youth is spending a lot of time on social media. And we go through those in short videos of
01:53politics from YouTube, or we go through Instagram Reels, and TikTok and Snapchat, I'm talking globally.
02:00So yes, these are some of the ways in which we are accessing information. Some of them are biased,
02:07you know, not aware completely about the background, history and story and facts, but they are picking
02:14up a small political issue and creating a story around it. So that has become a little bit of a
02:22challenge that people are listening to them and then also getting influenced ideologically.
02:28But that is one way then of course, in social media, there are other means you forward images, videos,
02:36doctored videos, fake voice notes, and you talk about all those ways in which people get attracted to
02:44your information. And then the third way that is slowly looking like a big challenge for India, especially
02:51is the use of online gaming platforms. So I keep talking about it at all
02:57platforms that how gaming online gaming at the moment looks more like a financial scam portal,
03:06but it has more to it, it doesn't have only financial impact, but also people are using it for
03:14extremist ideologies, propaganda, they're using it for communication with the people who are
03:21looking like potential recruits. They are also creating these bots and modified mods, mod games
03:30in which people are only playing games, keeping in mind the conflict scenario in mind. So if jihad
03:38activities, they are doing gun weapon training on online gaming platforms. A lot of these platforms
03:45are also helping people raise funds for terrorist activities. So these are some of the ways in which
03:51radicalization has taken a new shape in the world.
03:56Now, Samia, coming to funds, which you just mentioned, we all know that Jaisi Muhammad is being
04:02financially backed by Pakistan, but it is also sourcing its funds from diaspora and other people
04:08who actually support that kind of ideology after they are influenced by these training modules. So if
04:14you can talk about the funding of Jaisi Muhammad, how it is happening on a large scale with legitimate
04:19applications? Yeah, so we all know that the first one in this scheme of games was basically ISKP,
04:29which came up with a QR code on their magazine asking for zakat. So in the name of zakat,
04:35people are using these online platforms to make payments in the name of zakat. And sometimes
04:44Havala channel is also used in donations. So there are these small value wallet transfers,
04:52then there are informal remitters, and then charitable campaigns which happen. So Jaisi Muhammad has been
04:58one of the first one in the South Asian scenario or the Pakistani based terror group, which has been
05:06openly asking for donations on digital wallet. They have used SadaPay and other
05:14other platforms for, you know, collection of money. So because it helps them the plausibility of
05:22deniability. So if I am getting money, I can't say or you know, I will say that I just made a donation
05:29to a charitable fund, but I'm not making a terror funding. So that deniability exists, it makes things
05:36easy for people to move forward with terror financing. Other than the digital wallets,
05:43they are also coming up with methods like using dark web for exchange of, you know,
05:52your bank account details and extortion through dark web for the stolen credit card details. Again,
06:00taking you back to a little bit of gaming online gaming platform. There also sometimes people are
06:06asking for donations with regard to so they will make a story story about themselves that I have
06:13cancer, for example, and I need money for treatment. And this is how the other player who is a potential
06:20recruiter, recruiter, recruitee can be, you know, can get money out of this, this process. The another
06:29way in, in which they do is use of drug trafficking, and combining it with cryptocurrencies and
06:37digital wallet. So a lot of times the drug becomes a source of earning rather than just, you know,
06:45trafficking, doing drugs for indoctrination purposes. They are using drugs for selling and earning out of
06:52it. And then of course, drugs are illegal substance. So when you are purchasing something, you need to be
07:00discreet. And hence again, cryptocurrencies become easy way to do the transactions.
07:06Of course, most of it is being done digitally in order to evade the scrutiny of FATF. How can India,
07:14along with other partner countries of India, who India has close ties with, how can these countries
07:20come together to actually nab these terror operatives, these OGWs, these handlers who are linked with Jaisi
07:27Mahmoud? So of course, there are multiple things that already are in place. And that is why we don't
07:34have legal permission of dealing in cryptocurrencies. That is why India has not legalized cryptocurrency
07:42business. And one of the reasons is because of the anonymity and the deniability that comes with
07:49transactions or via crypto. So that is one way then second is
07:54all these countries who are allied and bilateral partners with India, they have from time to time,
08:01a working group, which exchanges data on how the transactions are taking place. And that is why
08:08when you see a lot of terror groups are busted or the operations where the kills happen, there also,
08:14they are able to get support from the countries and friendly countries who are sharing their information
08:21and data intelligence with us. Apart from that, there are more strict laws which have come up with KYC
08:30procedures. So there, it's not that it is not happening. The CERT team in India, which is the
08:38Computer Emergency Response Team, and the I4C team, they are all working on the ways in which cyber crime
08:48can be reduced. And that is why the online gaming bill act was also passed this year. Because a lot
08:56of financial crimes were happening via that and gaming apps for betting. And then there was all these
09:03chit fun kind of scams which were running online. And sometimes we found the hands of the Chinese in
09:13in these scams also. So that is why if you look at any act, it doesn't have only one reason behind it,
09:20it has multiple reasons. Now you must be hearing that Aadhaar card is no more valid only as your
09:27identity proof. It's because on in all the border areas, it has been observed that people are getting
09:34fake Aadhaar cards made by paying sheer 100 rupees or 200 or less than 500 rupees. So to stop that and if you
09:42have Aadhaar card, you can open a bank account. If you have Aadhaar card, you can open your digital
09:48wallet account. So to stop all these things, now slowly Government of India is deciding that
09:53Aadhaar card cannot be the only way to identify yourself. So yes, these are the ways in which we
09:59are working with the partner countries as well as within our country. Earlier, we used to see cross
10:04border terrorism, cross border indoctrination, but now it is happening homegrown. And that is
10:10becoming an even more bigger challenge for us. People inside of our country are getting radicalized
10:16and then carrying out all of these terror attacks and linkages with the handlers sitting in Turkey,
10:23sitting in Pakistan, Afghanistan. Yeah, so like I said that because Aadhaar card is one
10:30document which was getting fake. So even ChatGPT is helping you make your own Aadhaar card.
10:35And this is where people have used AI to create your Aadhaar cards, fake Aadhaar cards. And similarly,
10:45when you talk about the handlers, even if the terrorists are coming from outside, and in this
10:51case, we know that Pakistan has been sponsoring terrorism in Kashmir and in India. So the handlers
10:57who are presently who are presently in India, they are getting a lot of money in return for doing,
11:03supporting them. And they help people get these Aadhaar cards made, the voter ID cards made or the
11:09PAN card. So that becomes a big challenge. You talked about Turkey, it's very important because
11:16lot of people from India go to study in Turkey. And especially from Kashmir, and from
11:24southern part of India, it has been found that lot of people are going and studying in Turkey,
11:29whether it is medical science, or higher education in the humanities. So it is becoming a hub for
11:35education, for especially for, you know, Muslims, Muslim community. So that is one of the reasons to
11:46worry about that, why they are choosing Turkey, because even in the Red Fort case, it was found
11:51that these suspects were having, had gone to Turkey. Yes. For education.
11:58And one of the suspects also had Chinese medical degree.
12:04Yes. So these countries are sheltering people who are more radicalized and have,
12:10uh, you know, ideologically extreme views. So it becomes easy for them to go there because in India,
12:18people cannot exist in a democratic system with extreme ideologies. There can be challenges,
12:25people can suspect you for wrongdoings. So it becomes easy for them to travel to Turkey or to
12:31China to carry out their education. And hence, I would use your platform to recommend that,
12:37why not ban certain countries degree as invalid, even if they want to go and study,
12:43but they can't get a job in India if they have a degree from certain countries like Turkey in this
12:49case or Bangladesh or, uh, you know, uh, like you said, Chinese degree. So I think we, we have a list
12:58where we do, uh, list out countries and the degrees which are not valid from certain places. And we need
13:04to add Turkey in that list as well. Just mentioned creating, uh, you know, some of these people creating
13:09Aadhaar cards from chat GBT. How much dangerous is AI in today's age? Because now we are seeing social
13:16media flooded with AI generated videos, images, most of them, a majority of them are misleading.
13:23Yeah. Uh, AI is a big challenge and, uh, every technology has goods and bads and so does AI
13:31because, uh, uh, even it is becoming a tool for a lot of misinformation and disinformation campaign.
13:39The information propaganda, uh, information warfare is taking place through the use of AI.
13:44If you remember going back a little to Opsindoor period, when the operation was on, there was so
13:51many bots on Twitter, which were doing amplification of propaganda. Uh, there was a doctored video,
13:59which was created of, uh, our foreign minister or of our Northern army commander and of prime minister
14:05Modi, uh, who are quarreling with each other. And they are saying that we will not do, you know,
14:11basically a sort of rejection to the idea of fighting against, uh, Pakistan. Similarly,
14:17if you would be a week or so back, our, uh, vice chief, uh, deputy vice chief, uh, general guys,
14:24video also came out where his audio was doctored. And interestingly, I was sitting in that conference
14:30where he was speaking. And I know he did not say any of these words. So, uh, you know,
14:36that's how AI is being used for doctoring and fabricating the videos or audios, as well as
14:42sometimes, uh, you may be getting these random calls from, uh, people that your consignment has
14:47been caught on, uh, uh, at the airport or somebody will fake as a, as a, as a police and say, your son
14:55has been caught, uh, for drug peddling. And then they will make you speak to your son. And that son
15:01has a voice like your own son, but is not actually your son. So that kind of deep fake voices are being
15:08used. Uh, again, uh, like I said, the propaganda part is made playing a major role in indoctrination
15:16of, uh, the youth today. And that is why we need to be very vigilant on what kind of content we are
15:21consuming, uh, through, uh, uh, social media, because AI, uh, for the, um, you know, terrorist
15:31organization is, is as, uh, scary as a nuclear weapon, I would say that, you know, they can do so
15:40much with AI that can be equivalent to a nuclear weapon. When you talk about information warfare,
15:47there is, uh, and you've also written about it, there is an asymmetry between India and Pakistan,
15:53uh, in terms of information warfare. Uh, do you think that India lacks this kind of strategic
16:00strength, uh, to counter narratives right after a major incident has occurred and how can we improve on
16:08that? Uh, I think we don't lack strategic strength at all. We have that strategic strength,
16:16but it's just that we do not use it to the right, uh, cause or right way. We don't use it enough
16:24to counter these, uh, propagandals. So you know that we have these different, different ministries
16:30who have a strategic communication departments, but none of them are working in collusion.
16:37The, the need of the hour is that all these ministries communication department work together
16:42towards, uh, disseminate, uh, you know, towards, uh, countering the, uh, dissemination of propaganda.
16:50And that has to be a regular process and not be asymmetric, like everybody's working in their silos,
16:57not, uh, thinking that how it can impact. And given the fact that we live in this digital world,
17:03nothing can be, uh, done in silos. Everything is transnational, transboundary.
17:09So if a task for MEA is related to foreign affairs, you can't say that IB or, uh, you know,
17:15uh, information broadcasting ministries role is restricted internally. It's going outward.
17:23So you, you have an overlap in the ministries and hence we need to have a fusion cell. That's what
17:30I call a fusion cell where all these ministries combine their team, make one strong team, which is
17:36regularly working 24 seven rather than being in event based and more reactive. Now it is time that
17:43you become more proactive, more, uh, you know, practical and realist that this is what is more,
17:50uh, uh, you know, uh, more challenging than just a conflict at the border. Like I say that today,
17:58if winning a war is enough to win a war, it is important to win your story as well.
18:04So perception management is something which becomes very important, uh, through, uh,
18:10countering of misinformation.
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