00:00So with us today is Soumya Vasti. She's a fellow at the Center for Security Strategy and Technology
00:15at the ORF Think Tank. Her work focuses on counter-terrorism, technology-driven threats
00:20and India's national security. Thank you so much, Soumya, for speaking with AsiaNet News
00:25on the Delhi Red Port blast incident and giving us a perspective on how technology is actually
00:32helping these terrorist organizations to fund themselves to have a greater influence
00:39in other countries as well. So first of all, I want to begin by talking about the shift in
00:44radicalization process. Earlier, we used to hear a lot about how people are getting radicalized
00:50in brick-and-mortar infrastructure like Madarsars or different other infrastructures.
00:55But now it is shifting more and more on digital platforms. If you can talk about that.
01:02Thank you, Hina, for having me on your show.
01:05Yes, radicalization methods have changed. It has become a little more, you know, expanded
01:13in its methods. Earlier, we used to hear about how Madrasas and Mosques are only responsible
01:20for radicalization. But now I'm seeing a trend in last few years, maybe five years or six
01:27years when more and more people are getting radicalized through digital space. Now, if I
01:34talk about digital space, there are two broadly, two ways. One is through the, of course, use
01:39of social media. Because we, as the youth who is getting radicalized, and otherwise as well,
01:47youth is spending a lot of time on social media. And we go through those in short videos of
01:53politics from YouTube, or we go through Instagram Reels, and TikTok and Snapchat, I'm talking globally.
02:00So yes, these are some of the ways in which we are accessing information. Some of them are biased,
02:07you know, not aware completely about the background, history and story and facts, but they are picking
02:14up a small political issue and creating a story around it. So that has become a little bit of a
02:22challenge that people are listening to them and then also getting influenced ideologically.
02:28But that is one way then of course, in social media, there are other means you forward images, videos,
02:36doctored videos, fake voice notes, and you talk about all those ways in which people get attracted to
02:44your information. And then the third way that is slowly looking like a big challenge for India, especially
02:51is the use of online gaming platforms. So I keep talking about it at all
02:57platforms that how gaming online gaming at the moment looks more like a financial scam portal,
03:06but it has more to it, it doesn't have only financial impact, but also people are using it for
03:14extremist ideologies, propaganda, they're using it for communication with the people who are
03:21looking like potential recruits. They are also creating these bots and modified mods, mod games
03:30in which people are only playing games, keeping in mind the conflict scenario in mind. So if jihad
03:38activities, they are doing gun weapon training on online gaming platforms. A lot of these platforms
03:45are also helping people raise funds for terrorist activities. So these are some of the ways in which
03:51radicalization has taken a new shape in the world.
03:56Now, Samia, coming to funds, which you just mentioned, we all know that Jaisi Muhammad is being
04:02financially backed by Pakistan, but it is also sourcing its funds from diaspora and other people
04:08who actually support that kind of ideology after they are influenced by these training modules. So if
04:14you can talk about the funding of Jaisi Muhammad, how it is happening on a large scale with legitimate
04:19applications? Yeah, so we all know that the first one in this scheme of games was basically ISKP,
04:29which came up with a QR code on their magazine asking for zakat. So in the name of zakat,
04:35people are using these online platforms to make payments in the name of zakat. And sometimes
04:44Havala channel is also used in donations. So there are these small value wallet transfers,
04:52then there are informal remitters, and then charitable campaigns which happen. So Jaisi Muhammad has been
04:58one of the first one in the South Asian scenario or the Pakistani based terror group, which has been
05:06openly asking for donations on digital wallet. They have used SadaPay and other
05:14other platforms for, you know, collection of money. So because it helps them the plausibility of
05:22deniability. So if I am getting money, I can't say or you know, I will say that I just made a donation
05:29to a charitable fund, but I'm not making a terror funding. So that deniability exists, it makes things
05:36easy for people to move forward with terror financing. Other than the digital wallets,
05:43they are also coming up with methods like using dark web for exchange of, you know,
05:52your bank account details and extortion through dark web for the stolen credit card details. Again,
06:00taking you back to a little bit of gaming online gaming platform. There also sometimes people are
06:06asking for donations with regard to so they will make a story story about themselves that I have
06:13cancer, for example, and I need money for treatment. And this is how the other player who is a potential
06:20recruiter, recruiter, recruitee can be, you know, can get money out of this, this process. The another
06:29way in, in which they do is use of drug trafficking, and combining it with cryptocurrencies and
06:37digital wallet. So a lot of times the drug becomes a source of earning rather than just, you know,
06:45trafficking, doing drugs for indoctrination purposes. They are using drugs for selling and earning out of
06:52it. And then of course, drugs are illegal substance. So when you are purchasing something, you need to be
07:00discreet. And hence again, cryptocurrencies become easy way to do the transactions.
07:06Of course, most of it is being done digitally in order to evade the scrutiny of FATF. How can India,
07:14along with other partner countries of India, who India has close ties with, how can these countries
07:20come together to actually nab these terror operatives, these OGWs, these handlers who are linked with Jaisi
07:27Mahmoud? So of course, there are multiple things that already are in place. And that is why we don't
07:34have legal permission of dealing in cryptocurrencies. That is why India has not legalized cryptocurrency
07:42business. And one of the reasons is because of the anonymity and the deniability that comes with
07:49transactions or via crypto. So that is one way then second is
07:54all these countries who are allied and bilateral partners with India, they have from time to time,
08:01a working group, which exchanges data on how the transactions are taking place. And that is why
08:08when you see a lot of terror groups are busted or the operations where the kills happen, there also,
08:14they are able to get support from the countries and friendly countries who are sharing their information
08:21and data intelligence with us. Apart from that, there are more strict laws which have come up with KYC
08:30procedures. So there, it's not that it is not happening. The CERT team in India, which is the
08:38Computer Emergency Response Team, and the I4C team, they are all working on the ways in which cyber crime
08:48can be reduced. And that is why the online gaming bill act was also passed this year. Because a lot
08:56of financial crimes were happening via that and gaming apps for betting. And then there was all these
09:03chit fun kind of scams which were running online. And sometimes we found the hands of the Chinese in
09:13in these scams also. So that is why if you look at any act, it doesn't have only one reason behind it,
09:20it has multiple reasons. Now you must be hearing that Aadhaar card is no more valid only as your
09:27identity proof. It's because on in all the border areas, it has been observed that people are getting
09:34fake Aadhaar cards made by paying sheer 100 rupees or 200 or less than 500 rupees. So to stop that and if you
09:42have Aadhaar card, you can open a bank account. If you have Aadhaar card, you can open your digital
09:48wallet account. So to stop all these things, now slowly Government of India is deciding that
09:53Aadhaar card cannot be the only way to identify yourself. So yes, these are the ways in which we
09:59are working with the partner countries as well as within our country. Earlier, we used to see cross
10:04border terrorism, cross border indoctrination, but now it is happening homegrown. And that is
10:10becoming an even more bigger challenge for us. People inside of our country are getting radicalized
10:16and then carrying out all of these terror attacks and linkages with the handlers sitting in Turkey,
10:23sitting in Pakistan, Afghanistan. Yeah, so like I said that because Aadhaar card is one
10:30document which was getting fake. So even ChatGPT is helping you make your own Aadhaar card.
10:35And this is where people have used AI to create your Aadhaar cards, fake Aadhaar cards. And similarly,
10:45when you talk about the handlers, even if the terrorists are coming from outside, and in this
10:51case, we know that Pakistan has been sponsoring terrorism in Kashmir and in India. So the handlers
10:57who are presently who are presently in India, they are getting a lot of money in return for doing,
11:03supporting them. And they help people get these Aadhaar cards made, the voter ID cards made or the
11:09PAN card. So that becomes a big challenge. You talked about Turkey, it's very important because
11:16lot of people from India go to study in Turkey. And especially from Kashmir, and from
11:24southern part of India, it has been found that lot of people are going and studying in Turkey,
11:29whether it is medical science, or higher education in the humanities. So it is becoming a hub for
11:35education, for especially for, you know, Muslims, Muslim community. So that is one of the reasons to
11:46worry about that, why they are choosing Turkey, because even in the Red Fort case, it was found
11:51that these suspects were having, had gone to Turkey. Yes. For education.
11:58And one of the suspects also had Chinese medical degree.
12:04Yes. So these countries are sheltering people who are more radicalized and have,
12:10uh, you know, ideologically extreme views. So it becomes easy for them to go there because in India,
12:18people cannot exist in a democratic system with extreme ideologies. There can be challenges,
12:25people can suspect you for wrongdoings. So it becomes easy for them to travel to Turkey or to
12:31China to carry out their education. And hence, I would use your platform to recommend that,
12:37why not ban certain countries degree as invalid, even if they want to go and study,
12:43but they can't get a job in India if they have a degree from certain countries like Turkey in this
12:49case or Bangladesh or, uh, you know, uh, like you said, Chinese degree. So I think we, we have a list
12:58where we do, uh, list out countries and the degrees which are not valid from certain places. And we need
13:04to add Turkey in that list as well. Just mentioned creating, uh, you know, some of these people creating
13:09Aadhaar cards from chat GBT. How much dangerous is AI in today's age? Because now we are seeing social
13:16media flooded with AI generated videos, images, most of them, a majority of them are misleading.
13:23Yeah. Uh, AI is a big challenge and, uh, every technology has goods and bads and so does AI
13:31because, uh, uh, even it is becoming a tool for a lot of misinformation and disinformation campaign.
13:39The information propaganda, uh, information warfare is taking place through the use of AI.
13:44If you remember going back a little to Opsindoor period, when the operation was on, there was so
13:51many bots on Twitter, which were doing amplification of propaganda. Uh, there was a doctored video,
13:59which was created of, uh, our foreign minister or of our Northern army commander and of prime minister
14:05Modi, uh, who are quarreling with each other. And they are saying that we will not do, you know,
14:11basically a sort of rejection to the idea of fighting against, uh, Pakistan. Similarly,
14:17if you would be a week or so back, our, uh, vice chief, uh, deputy vice chief, uh, general guys,
14:24video also came out where his audio was doctored. And interestingly, I was sitting in that conference
14:30where he was speaking. And I know he did not say any of these words. So, uh, you know,
14:36that's how AI is being used for doctoring and fabricating the videos or audios, as well as
14:42sometimes, uh, you may be getting these random calls from, uh, people that your consignment has
14:47been caught on, uh, uh, at the airport or somebody will fake as a, as a, as a police and say, your son
14:55has been caught, uh, for drug peddling. And then they will make you speak to your son. And that son
15:01has a voice like your own son, but is not actually your son. So that kind of deep fake voices are being
15:08used. Uh, again, uh, like I said, the propaganda part is made playing a major role in indoctrination
15:16of, uh, the youth today. And that is why we need to be very vigilant on what kind of content we are
15:21consuming, uh, through, uh, uh, social media, because AI, uh, for the, um, you know, terrorist
15:31organization is, is as, uh, scary as a nuclear weapon, I would say that, you know, they can do so
15:40much with AI that can be equivalent to a nuclear weapon. When you talk about information warfare,
15:47there is, uh, and you've also written about it, there is an asymmetry between India and Pakistan,
15:53uh, in terms of information warfare. Uh, do you think that India lacks this kind of strategic
16:00strength, uh, to counter narratives right after a major incident has occurred and how can we improve on
16:08that? Uh, I think we don't lack strategic strength at all. We have that strategic strength,
16:16but it's just that we do not use it to the right, uh, cause or right way. We don't use it enough
16:24to counter these, uh, propagandals. So you know that we have these different, different ministries
16:30who have a strategic communication departments, but none of them are working in collusion.
16:37The, the need of the hour is that all these ministries communication department work together
16:42towards, uh, disseminate, uh, you know, towards, uh, countering the, uh, dissemination of propaganda.
16:50And that has to be a regular process and not be asymmetric, like everybody's working in their silos,
16:57not, uh, thinking that how it can impact. And given the fact that we live in this digital world,
17:03nothing can be, uh, done in silos. Everything is transnational, transboundary.
17:09So if a task for MEA is related to foreign affairs, you can't say that IB or, uh, you know,
17:15uh, information broadcasting ministries role is restricted internally. It's going outward.
17:23So you, you have an overlap in the ministries and hence we need to have a fusion cell. That's what
17:30I call a fusion cell where all these ministries combine their team, make one strong team, which is
17:36regularly working 24 seven rather than being in event based and more reactive. Now it is time that
17:43you become more proactive, more, uh, you know, practical and realist that this is what is more,
17:50uh, uh, you know, uh, more challenging than just a conflict at the border. Like I say that today,
17:58if winning a war is enough to win a war, it is important to win your story as well.
18:04So perception management is something which becomes very important, uh, through, uh,
18:10countering of misinformation.
