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00:00We went to the wrong house.
00:03And now these people are looking for us.
00:05Let's go! Let's go!
00:08You took our money and dope.
00:11Now I have to kill everybody you know.
00:15Brian, welcome to the Awards Tour podcast, sir.
00:18Oh, it is a pleasure and an honor at the same time.
00:21It's great.
00:22So I have obviously seen you both physically, socially.
00:26We did a Q&A for your new Apple TV Plus show, Dope Thief.
00:30But we haven't done this whole thing post your Oscar nomination.
00:37You have been on a bit of a tear, sir.
00:41Like, let's just be real.
00:42You know, movies with Brad Pitt, working with the Barry Jenkins script, Transformers, everything.
00:49And now this Apple TV series, Dope Thief.
00:54So let's talk a little bit about that and why you wanted to go back to television, honestly, after a bit of an absence.
01:03It's funny because I was getting my ass handed to me by television for quite some time.
01:10I mean, every character that I was playing over the last few years was just really it took a lot.
01:16It took a lot. And I knew I wanted a departure from television.
01:21And, you know, like I think our relationship just needed a little bit of a break.
01:25And I made this decision to kind of just step back and I didn't want to come back to television unless it was something that was really passionate,
01:35something that was really new, something that excited me because television takes a lot of work.
01:40It just it really does. You grow with these characters.
01:43You become very close with these characters, the ensemble you become close with.
01:47It just it's a lot of work. And so here comes Peter Craig with this wonderful script to Dope Thief.
01:54And not only is the script and the world of this story so incredible, but it was giving me a chance to be a lead, which I had not really been offered before.
02:03I've been pretty much in a supporting lane for quite some time.
02:07But to get this part where it was truly a story that was following me, I was like, OK, cool.
02:13Then he's also like, well, Ridley Scott is also attached to direct the first.
02:17I was like, what else can you do to sweeten the pot?
02:22I'm already kind of like already in this double dutch, but what else?
02:26And they wanted me to executive produce. And that to me was just I don't I can't even explain to you.
02:31Like it felt like the clouds parted and the angels were singing.
02:35It was like, oh, this is a real chance to be a full on collaborator, which I knew this show would require because Ray is going through so many tumultuous ups and downs,
02:46dealing with so much loss and with so much grief, dealing with all kinds of craziness.
02:51And then I blinked and I was like, I found myself back in another traumatic.
02:55So I was like, OK, if I'm going to come back and do trauma and do all this this way, at least I'm leading it.
03:00At least I'm collaborating in an amazing way.
03:03So, yeah, I think that that was the biggest, biggest pull for me to come back.
03:08Well, because Ray just I just truly fell in love with him and fell in love with where Peter was taking the story.
03:15And, you know, I knew for me the challenges that would come with playing him because I realized I hadn't really played a character like this before,
03:22which I knew was going to be a challenge. It terrified out of me.
03:26So that's how I also knew that I needed to lean into it because it would require a lot of my own personal stories and my own personal progressions in my life.
03:35And it gave me a place to lay a lot of burdens down, which is something that I was really excited to do and to explore.
03:41But, yeah, Dope Thief just offered me something that I felt that I could offer the viewers as well.
03:48Like just and that's just another side of what I wanted to showcase.
03:51Yeah. And I mean, one of the things that I think is interesting, if you're going to take an EP job, you definitely had a birth by fire.
03:59I mean, it's a huge production, lots of moving parts and Ridley Scott.
04:04Oh, and we're going to be paused by, you know, the first strike in the better part of two decades, all of that.
04:10But the thing I think would be hardest for me to kind of wrap around with is the tonal shifts of this show.
04:16Just how like in the middle of, you know, spoiler alert, one of the most dramatic like fight sequences of the whole thing, it's the Bad News Bears, basically.
04:27Like there's a full on comedy bit in the middle of the shootout.
04:31And that's the most believable thing in the world because we've experienced that, of course, these characters are going to mess this up.
04:37Yeah, that's what I love the most about the Peter Craig kind of experience is that you have these characters who are incredibly flawed and also just are not skilled.
04:48Like they're like there's also there's also tragedy, but there's also great humor at the same time.
04:53Like they're just so multidimensional and it's and it's so fun to play, honestly.
04:58Was that originally from the very first scripts that you got to see?
05:01Because this is television. I'm sure you got like a pilot and maybe like four or five episodes.
05:05But did they have this whole season arc kind of planned out?
05:08Did you know it was going to be like, you know, very lock stock and two smoking barrels meets like minority report in some ways?
05:16Yeah, you know, Peter's brain, man, like I'm so fortunate to have been paired with somebody like Peter.
05:22He truly is a collaborator that I want to work with for as long as I possibly can.
05:27He writes characters that are just so, you know, again, incredibly flawed.
05:32But but you want to care. You really want to care about them.
05:35You find yourself actually admitting that, you know, these bastards are people you really want to know.
05:41It's just like and there's such humanity to them.
05:45And he gives you as an actor such a playground to play on because, you know, he he releases it and then he, you know, steps back and is like, I want to see what you're going to bring.
05:55And, you know, what sauce are you going to add to it, which is is the kind of collaboration I really love.
05:59But at the same time, there's nowhere to hide, really.
06:02There's really nowhere to hide. And so within this series, you find these characters always coming in opposition of a lot of things that they believe in and doing what is is necessary.
06:15Then what is right, you know, like and everything changes, every corner changes somebody's life every time.
06:22I mean, everything changes all the time. And I think that that's what was so exciting about Ray and Manny, that that union, because like here you have these two men who have known each other since they were 15 years old,
06:34like underneath the thumb of incarceration, growing up in a system that is telling them that they don't amount to anything and they won't ever be anything.
06:41And then they're released as men into this world. And so, OK, you're free. Go figure it out.
06:47And they're just like, what are we supposed to do? OK, you know what? Let's rob trap house.
06:51Let's pretend to be DEA agents. Right. Because what are we really going to get a job at?
06:55Like what is a nine to five looking like, you know, for this black and brown man who have been, you know.
07:00And so then we decide to come up with this little scheme. And then also like it just goes so wrong because we're also terrible at it.
07:08We're amateurs. We're novices. We're not. And then you start to see this whole, you know, Dante's Inferno open up because they've chosen this path and it just goes wrong.
07:18And they're literally having to make decisions about their lives. Like, is it worth living? Is it worth continuing on?
07:25Is it. And that was exciting. And I mean, to read it, to read it page after page, just like, oh, man, like what?
07:31Like what? I feel like when people were watching this show, I think that anxiety is the main.
07:39Very like you get a bear and got nothing on y'all, man.
07:44And I'm not trying to like bring up another show. Don't worry. They're in a different category. It's fine.
07:48You know what I mean? Like people talk about that show or like something like The Pit and they say that is tense.
07:54I'm like, this was like dope fiends. And like, again, shootouts, you know, it's crazy.
08:01Just imagine. Imagine getting the scripts, you know, and trying to figure out exactly like where you were going week after week.
08:08And you're just like, what what is about to happen?
08:10My favorite compliment, I will say about this show is when people tell me about how they watch it so much that they're watching it,
08:19but how they have to watch it because they apparently just takes you through all these kind of crazy.
08:25Like and it's usually people like screaming, like, right.
08:27Like, no, like, no, there's there are so many poor decisions that you not want them to be doing throughout the course of this series.
08:36I agree with that. There is not. In fact, there's not a single episode where any decision seems good until you figure like because not to spoil it,
08:44but you open, you don't realize that y'all are fake DEA agents.
08:47That is literally the only time that y'all look capable. Is that one opening?
08:51The rest of them is just a series of bad events, but a series of unfortunate events.
08:56But that is so fun to play. It is so fun to play.
08:59And I have to say that it is only made possible by, you know, the players of the show.
09:07I mean, being able to do this with Wagner more like I, you know, not only did I, you know,
09:13find a brother for life and a friend for life and a confidant for life, but man, is he fun to play with.
09:18Like, you just you literally get to watch.
09:21It is so funny because he and I both were being challenged to play completely different sides of characters that,
09:28you know, like that people don't know us for or haven't seen us this way.
09:32So you hear you have Wagner in this playing this trepidatious, nervous, scared, you know, you know,
09:38kind of like you like religious.
09:41He's trying to find his way, man.
09:46And every time he's just like, what did you make me do?
09:49How are we here? What is going on?
09:51And then me just trying to figure out how to hold it all together, like trying to be noble,
09:55trying to do the right thing sometimes.
09:57And but also like that kinship is so important to the story that connects you.
10:04And it was so important for us to show that love between these two,
10:08to show this kind of friendship, to show this codependence, to show that stuff.
10:12And also to bring the levity up, man, we had to be clowns at some point.
10:17And it's like we had to battle clowns at some point in this show.
10:21You had to you had to find that really like that creamy center of like being able to be vulnerable
10:28and to be scared, but at the same time trying to fight for your life.
10:32But that's also a testimony to Peter's writing.
10:35Yeah, no, I was literally just going to bring it to Wagner.
10:38And like, it's crazy.
10:39I saw him at Cannes.
10:41He has a new movie, The Secret Agent.
10:43And I'm just like, you know what I mean?
10:46And I'm just like, this dude, it's crazy that he's that.
10:50And then he's doing like this role.
10:51And I think you it's also similar that you just kind of become a chameleon in all the parts you have.
10:57And I feel like this role in particular, there's a lot of those chameleon moments.
11:01Again, for folks that haven't seen the show, you've already kind of previewed it.
11:04You guys are fake de-agents.
11:06You end up ripping off the wrong person.
11:09But the other side of this tale, which I think is interesting.
11:12And the thing I came to at the end of it is your character is really a criminal who we discovered through the course of the show is really a good guy.
11:21And the other person who kind of bookends that whole story is Mina.
11:27And hers is this is a supposedly a good guy person with the badge who through the course of the show we figure out is just a crazy gangster.
11:35Really?
11:36You know what I mean?
11:38Talk about.
11:38Played brilliantly by Maureen Ireland.
11:40Like she we what we asked of her was no small feat.
11:45Like because you want to talk about someone who can act without saying a word, but can convey like, you know what I mean?
11:54Like that like we what we ask of her, you know, also not to spoil the show, but she loses her voice.
12:00So like the first half of the series, you're watching this woman trying to regain speech, like trying to figure out and all she wants to do, like you can tell she's a hard ass.
12:12And so most of the time she's, you know, you can tell that she she wants to just like, but she can't talk.
12:17So you're watching Maureen do this amazing, amazing work of trying to find her voice throughout this series while also making sure that she's bringing down the people who caused this to her.
12:29And took away something very important from her in her life.
12:33And Maureen Ireland was the only person that I could think of that could pull that off.
12:37Like she is the most masterful.
12:39And I just want to take a moment to give a shout out to the women of the series, period, point blank.
12:44You know, my mother is played by the like amazing, amazing, legendary Kate Mulgrew, which, you know, I tasked her with the I was like, yeah, you're going to be my mom.
12:55You're my mom.
12:56And that's just what it is.
12:58And then you get Ving Rain's true dad, too.
12:59Yeah, Ving Rain's is my dad.
13:01And, you know, Nesta Cooper, who plays the wonderful lawyer, Michelle, and also a love interest.
13:06And you've got Liz Caribelle, you know.
13:09So everyone, it was one of the best ensembles I'd ever had the luxury of being a part of.
13:14But every single character is going through this kind of existential crisis of doing what's right and trying to figure out what's right and how to make the wrongs right.
13:26And but at the same time, you know, with Mina, I become like her Moby Dick, right?
13:31Like I become this white whale that she's trying to find because like she feels like if she, you know, can find me and track me down, like then there's justice where you've got the whole D.
13:40Yeah, it's like it can't be this guy.
13:42Like it's not this guy.
13:43And she's like, no, it's definitely this guy.
13:45So it's it's it's it's so it was so fun, honestly, to do this show because we just knew that the layers of each character episode by episode were going to be tested.
13:58Like everyone was going to have to go through and endure their own personal tests of trying to do what's right, because then you find out that Ray's whole journey through the whole series is like, where is that lady?
14:10Like, yeah, there's a lady that wasn't supposed to be there.
14:13And you're watching everybody in this series deal with their own like hauntings of of things and decisions that they've made, which makes them even more human because, you know, it's real easy to think that they're criminals and they could get by and they're shooting this and doing that.
14:29No, everyone's moral compass is completely spinning out of control because they want to do what's right.
14:34And they want to, you know, ultimately be seen as as good people.
14:38And I think that that's what's so brilliant about how Peter constructs character and story.
14:46Yeah. Again, I'm not going to give this away because you've already highlighted.
14:49I was about to go to Kate next because, again, as a Trekkie, she will always be my captain as well.
14:54But you know what I mean? Like, I don't care what she does.
14:57I love that you brought her in this and she's so good in it.
14:59Ving is so good in all the women like you mentioned.
15:01But I have to just particularly shout out Dustin Nguyen and Legend also.
15:09And specifically wanted to talk to you being like an EP and also someone that works with him.
15:14First of all, his character is so good. He's so good in this.
15:17I can't even begin to tell folks how good he's in it.
15:20You've got to watch it all the way to the end to appreciate how good he is in it.
15:23But also this dude has been on some of like some crazy sets.
15:27Like he's been in like shows and just been doing stuff for forever.
15:30Did you get any stories from him?
15:33Because I feel like he would be a wealth of like back in the 80s.
15:36Are you asking if I specifically asked what it was like to work with Johnny Depp back on 21 Jump Street?
15:40No, I did not. I mean, did I think about it? Yes, I kind of did.
15:44Oh, man. Oh, man.
15:46I don't know where the bodies are buried.
15:48Yes.
15:49One, it's hard because you're looking at this man that has been on television like for, you know, like for years.
15:59Yeah.
15:59And then you question whether or not he's a vampire because he looks exactly the same.
16:04Like this man is in amazing shape.
16:06He is the kindest person in the world.
16:08And then because he's such a great actor that he takes on this Philly accent.
16:13He takes on this Delco accent.
16:14Like, you know, you've got this man.
16:16He's just like, like, like he he was brilliant and he was so game for everything.
16:21And and it was so interesting because the relationship between his character and I, you know, runs deep to like very deep.
16:30Like you can tell that his character was the one that kind of like, you know, trained me and was like, this is how we run.
16:36Like it is also yet another love story.
16:39It is also another kind of kinship between these two men that, you know, it's mentor and mentee.
16:45But at the same time, like he is what I think family should be and should look like.
16:50So you're watching us both go through that.
16:53And Dustin was just such a team player, man.
16:56Like he was just such a team player.
16:58And as the show was going on, you know, his character just became more and more entrenched in Ray's life.
17:05You could see that there were these definite hooks that he had and Ray's formation of who he was becoming as a man.
17:13And, you know, it turned.
17:17I want to give it away, but it goes sideways.
17:20Listen, there's a lot of betrayal.
17:23There's a lot of, you know, like a lot of breakups in a way that go on in this show.
17:30But he played it so masterfully.
17:31Like he truly is is one of a kind, like Dustin, even even Q, who plays his grandmother, like she's a legend.
17:40Like, you know, she like there was nothing greater than being able to put a double barrel shotgun in her hand.
17:46And I was like, ah, yeah, like not too much, not too much of my girl.
17:50We don't want to see. Oh, my God.
17:53She is such a legend.
17:54She's such a you want to talk about stories.
17:57You want to talk about stories like she has all of them.
18:01And it was just it was amazing.
18:02It was amazing to play with these masters.
18:04It really, really was.
18:06I'm not going to say who said it, but the coldest line, in my opinion, there's a ton of cold lines in the series.
18:12OK.
18:12Oldest line in the series is, yeah, you were a tool, but it doesn't mean I don't love my tools.
18:19Girl.
18:22Peter Craig.
18:23It's a cold line.
18:26I do want to talk before we get out of here about some of the other stuff that you've kind of gotten to do.
18:31I think you've been in two really incredible movies that were very well received.
18:36They did well.
18:37You know, they did well.
18:38Everyone was happy with them.
18:39But I think you on the press run for both of these movies was more impactful than anything else I will ever understand and see.
18:48Do tell.
18:49Do tell.
18:49What are these?
18:50You and Aaron Taylor Johnson and Bully Train.
18:54I love that.
18:54And you and Chris Hemsworth on Transformers.
18:57It was hilarious watching you with these two dudes.
19:01Just because I feel like you just gave them a different thing that they just don't normally do.
19:06It was the best thing watching him.
19:08I would love if you could tell me.
19:09It's one of my favorite things to do with, you know, like Aaron, I mean, I could go on and on and on about Aaron because not only is he just a skilled, like, just tuned in actor, but man, is he the most lovable person in the world.
19:24Like, I mean, immediately when we met on Bully Train, we read it and I was like, oh, so we're brothers.
19:29Like, for real.
19:30Like, for real.
19:32The joke isn't that you're, you know, you're white, I'm black.
19:34No, we came up together.
19:37That's how the story changed.
19:39Like, David Leach, like, saw us and was like, I was like, no, no, no, we, this run, this 10 toes down, right?
19:44This is, we down like four flats.
19:45Like, this is real.
19:47And our relationship was like that.
19:48Like, me and Aaron, very much like that.
19:50And I think it's really cool when I can bring out, I try to bring out the levity of like, because I, you know, like being stars like that, these beautiful, chiseled, adored white men, you know, I want people to be able to see the fun because they're fun.
20:08And y'all had a blast.
20:09But then you meet Chris, who is just the, I mean, just like another brother, like he would literally text me while Dope Deep was going on because he's been watching it.
20:20And it's just like, you know, they're just great men.
20:24They're great dudes.
20:25And I'm so glad I get to call them brothers.
20:27And I would work with them a thousand times over.
20:30I like, you know, me and Aaron used to bake bread together.
20:34It's like, so it's like you, it's, I'm so fortunate.
20:38That is something that I really do love about what I do is that I actually become in kinship with these people.
20:44Like they really do become family to me and, and it becomes fun because press tours are, it's, it's a lot, but I think that's where you get to see the real, you know, you get to see the fun, you get to see, you know, it doesn't have to be so.
21:00And so like the two of them, I mean, I love them.
21:02I talked to them, like, I love them and they're also just damn good.
21:07They're really damn good at what they do.
21:09I wish I had their abs, but that's not my gospel.
21:12You know what I'm saying?
21:13But like, at the end of the day, they are absolutely talented and, and beautifully wonderful men.
21:18And so they, they bring that up out of me too.
21:20You know, they, they elevate me at the same time.
21:23So it's, it's cool.
21:24It's cool.
21:25It still is weird.
21:26I'm just like, what?
21:27That's what it's like, those, these are my friends.
21:30These are my family.
21:30And that's, that's what I really love about what I do is, is the development of family that I get to, to, to, to create and, and the people I get to adopt and who adopt me.
21:40It's the same with Kate.
21:41Like, I only call her Ma.
21:43Like, I really only, I have her in my phone as Ma and she will only let me call her Ma.
21:48And it's, it's real.
21:49Like, she means the world to me.
21:52And so she's adopted me and, you know, I've adopted her.
21:55And, and there are also people I admire at the same time.
21:58So, and they've inspired me.
21:59And it's so nice to hear that them say that I inspired them at the same time, because it's easy to look at them in their career and be like, they already know it.
22:07They got it.
22:08But like, to, to feel that, you know, push and pull of like inspiration and care is wonderful.
22:15Like, it's, it's, it's such a blessing.
22:17One of the things I've heard you talk about is how you really want to keep trying to like defy expectations with your career.
22:24And I think you've definitely done that.
22:26I've already kind of talked about it.
22:27We just sampled the roles we've talked about here.
22:29You've done that.
22:30And one of the things I know for a fact that you got to do a little bit in this, and I think you want to do more of is be in romance.
22:37But there's a performance of yours where you did have a romantic situation that I believe, because I've been day one on this movie, has been recontextualized in the last few years.
22:49And I'm wondering if you have felt the recontextualization of Eternals, because I feel that that movie is going to have one of these in like, and I feel it kind of already where we all just look back and we're like,
23:06we really didn't catch this for what we want.
23:10It was such an honor to play fastest because there were a few things.
23:15One, to be able to show this kind of love, to show this queer love between these two men who also had a family.
23:21Also that he's a god, right?
23:23So he's eternal.
23:25And in order for him to choose love, that means that he also has to choose death.
23:29At the same time, you're going to watch your partner die at some point.
23:32But also that that is how he was made.
23:35Like, that's who he was.
23:37That's how it was.
23:38And it was great because the best part, I wasn't so excited about the action of it.
23:43I was like, I can't wait to see him at home.
23:45I was like, I can't wait to see.
23:46And then I knew I was going to get a kiss.
23:48I was like, oh, my God, this is my first kiss.
23:51It's like, it's my first kiss.
23:53And I loved it.
23:54It just, man, it really.
23:57Do people come up to you now?
23:58Like, I feel like it's changed now.
23:59Like, I think people really like.
24:01Like, I think, you know, Eternals was a big experiment, right?
24:05Because like, here we are kind of breaking the MCU down, bringing all different kinds
24:10of shapes, sizes, colors, how you love, where you're from.
24:14It didn't matter, you know?
24:15And so it was a huge experiment.
24:17Which, you know, when you make experiments, sometimes they work and sometimes they don't.
24:20But it still holds a special place in my heart because it was the first time that I felt
24:26like I, you know, I wasn't so much excited about the action of it.
24:30Yes, I was excited about being a part of MCU.
24:33Yes, I was excited about like, what kind of spandex am I going to be in?
24:36What's my color going to be?
24:37But to know that I had a husband, you know, I have a husband, I have a son.
24:42And like, there's a scene like Chloe Zhao, who I adore, like her vision for this movie
24:47was so wonderful.
24:49And what she is also still a good friend and just a great visionary.
24:53But there's a scene where I'm tucking him into bed.
24:57And I was like, oh, because that young actor, Isai, who must be in his teens now, if I see
25:02this kid now, I will probably blubber cry in the street because this kid was like my,
25:06like, I love this kid so much.
25:09And she was like, well, you're going to tuck him into bed.
25:12And I was like, but there's no scene for that.
25:15And she was like, well, just, you know, do your thing.
25:18And I was like, so I'm just, I was like, well, where's my husband?
25:20Like, I was like, this is, this has to be a ritual that we do.
25:22And so we were improv-ing and ad-libbing our home life and showing our home.
25:26And it was just the best.
25:27It was the best.
25:28So like, I hope for more things like that.
25:31I hope for more characters like that.
25:34I hope for more kisses like that, you know, like that excites me that, that feels like it's
25:39a reflection of the world we live in, a reflection of the way I want to be loved and a reflection
25:43of the way that people want to see love.
25:45So it's like, it was, it was great.
25:47So if there's another Eternals resurgence, that's great.
25:50Like, you know, it's, I always knocks me back a little bit when people come up and they're
25:53like, Eternals from Eternals.
25:56I was like, I'm like, what?
25:57Like, really?
25:58That's like, that's the thing.
26:00I just like, they keep adding.
26:02Cause once you get past just a few more characters, then you just go back to being Brian again,
26:08which is what they all should have just kind of known.
26:10So that's what I'm saying.
26:10You just got to get a few more icons on your filmography.
26:13We're getting there.
26:14We're getting there.
26:15We're getting there.
26:16We're getting there.
26:17We already got the Tony nom, Oscar nom, Emmy nom.
26:19Like we're getting there, kids.
26:21Come on.
26:21I get there.
26:22Hang with me.
26:23Stick with me.
26:24We will.
26:25And congratulations on the Gothams as well.
26:29It's also, it's great.
26:31It's a good reason to come back to New York.
26:33You know what I mean?
26:33The Gothams has always shown me love and to get this honor is crazy.
26:38I have not written a speech.
26:39I have no clue what I'm going to say because I don't ever win anything.
26:42So I don't be, I'm like, no, I ain't got right.
26:45But this is really great.
26:47I'm truly honored.
26:48It's really cool.
26:49Love it.
26:50All right.
26:50Well, thank you so much, sir.
26:51And we'll see you next time.
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