Art Talk: Cologne in the 1990s and Now / Art Cologne 2025

VernissageTV

In the 1990s, Cologne was a central hub of the European art scene, driven by pioneering galleries, a vibrant artist network, and a distinctive collector culture. In this panel discussion, Isabelle Graw, Diedrich Diederichsen, Andrea Fraser, Christian Nagel, and Monika Sprüth explore questions such as: What made Cologne so special in the 1990s, and which legacies endure today? How do today’s galleries and artists perceive Cologne in relation to Berlin, Basel, and other European centers? How is collecting evolving, and what might the next chapter look like for the city? Host is Hannes Loichinger.  Cologne in the 1990s and Now is part of the Fair Enough podcast by Art Cologne & Texte zur Kunst, exploring how art and institutions respond to the urgencies of our times.  Art Talk at Art Cologne 2025: Cologne in the 1990s and Now. Cologne (Germany), November 7, 2025.

Transcript

00:00:00Thank you so much for joining us today. I see there's a few people that are still trickling in.

00:00:05Welcome to the talk series for this year which has been in collaboration with Texas or Kunst

00:00:11and of course Art Cologne. We called the series Fair Enough and the idea for the series was to

00:00:18bring together artists, curators, writers, thinkers to reflect a bit about how art and

00:00:24its institutions are responding to the urgencies of the present moment. This season, marking the

00:00:3235th anniversary of Texas or Kunst, we took up the journal's motto for the year, there is no art

00:00:38without criticism. Today's conversation of course takes place here at Cologne Messe and is the only

00:00:45live discussion that will take place for this year's series. My name is Michaela Dixon and today we are

00:00:52joined on stage by Hannes Lokinger who will moderate the conversation and the conversation will be of

00:00:58course about Cologne in the 1990s and Cologne today. Our panelists are Isabel Grau, Dietrich Dietrichsen,

00:01:06Christian Nago, Monica Spruf and Andrea Fraser. I will now pass it on to you Hannes.

00:01:13Thank you Michaela for your welcome and welcome to all those attending this conversation.

00:01:20We have been invited by Art Cologne and Texte zur Kunst to speak about the following today.

00:01:26Quote, the panel explores Cologne's significance as a center of the European cultural scene in the

00:01:341990s and examines which influences and structures continue to resonate today. In conversation with

00:01:43renowned experts, the discussion will address how the local art and collecting scenes have evolved

00:01:49in comparison to other European contexts. Unquote.

00:01:55The speakers on today's panel require no introduction, particularly in Cologne.

00:02:01It would also take up almost all of our available time to provide a detailed account of their work since

00:02:09the 1980s or 1990s. I will briefly mention what you are doing now and a few aspects that connect you to Cologne in the 1990s.

00:02:22You are welcome to correct me or add other elements of your work later on in the conversation.

00:02:27Let's start with Andrea Fraser. You are an artist, a writer, and currently, amongst many other things, a professor at UCLA School of the Arts and Architecture.

00:02:42Your research focuses on the entanglements between psychoanalysis and socioanalysis, social and financial economies, and above all, the discourses in the field of art,

00:02:54whether in performative enactments or in your writing.

00:03:00You have been represented by Galerie Nagel, now Nagel Draxler, since the 1990s.

00:03:07In your first ever gallery exhibition that took place at Galerie Nagel in 1990, parallel to Art Cologne,

00:03:14you exhibited a replica of a booth from that very fair, and within it, at the age of 25, a retrospective of your work.

00:03:26If I'm not mistaken, we'll be seeing excerpts from a performance of yours later on, performed at Art Cologne in 1991.

00:03:34Next one is Isabelle Graf.

00:03:40You founded the magazine Texte zur Kunst in Cologne in 1990, together with the art historian Stefan Gamer,

00:03:45and have been its publisher and executive director ever since.

00:03:50Since 2002, you've been a professor of art theory and art history at the Städelschule in Frankfurt.

00:03:56You also founded the Institute for Art Criticism there, together with Daniel Birnbaum.

00:04:04One of the questions that has preoccupied you for a long time is that of value formation in the field of art.

00:04:11This question runs like a thread through not only your many art-critical texts, but also your publications,

00:04:18such as High Price, Art Between the Market and Celebrity Culture,

00:04:21and Three Cases of Value Reflection, Porsche, Witten, Banksy.

00:04:29Now I come to Monika Sprütt.

00:04:31Welcome.

00:04:33Together with Philomene Magers, you founded the Galerie Sprütt-Magers in 1998,

00:04:38which you are still running today.

00:04:40No?

00:04:421998.

00:04:44Didn't I say that?

00:04:45The Galerie was founded in 1983.

00:04:49Your Galerie, but not the...

00:04:52Yeah, but that is the important part, the first 10 years.

00:04:57Okay.

00:04:58I would have come to that later, but I agree with you.

00:05:01No, because it's difficult for me if I get introduced like that,

00:05:05especially in a discussion about the 90s.

00:05:09Okay.

00:05:09Because it's...

00:05:10Yeah.

00:05:11Later, it's something else.

00:05:14So, in...

00:05:14The art world changed, you know?

00:05:16Then let me try again.

00:05:18In 1983, you opened the Monika Sprütt Gallery in Cologne,

00:05:23published the magazine Ode Cologne, 1985, 1987, and 1989,

00:05:29which featured artists like Rosemary Trockel, Cindy Sherman,

00:05:33Jenny Holzer, Louise Lawler, and Barbara Kruger.

00:05:36And many more.

00:05:38And many more.

00:05:38In the last one, Isabel was a cover.

00:05:47Which is a...

00:05:4889.

00:05:49In the Ode Cologne.

00:05:49Was a cover.

00:05:51Which is a difficult topic, I think.

00:05:55She likes to talk about that.

00:05:57Endlessly.

00:05:59Yeah.

00:05:59But let's first finish the round of introductions and come to that later on.

00:06:03We have a small group, but let's have some fun.

00:06:06Dietrich, Dietrichsen.

00:06:08You're an essayist, cultural scientist, curator, and journalist.

00:06:13Before moving to Berlin in the late 90s, you lived in Cologne.

00:06:18In the 1980s, you worked as an editor for the magazine's Sounds and Specs.

00:06:22And you're one of the people who published texts in the first issues of the magazine Texte zur Kunst.

00:06:28From 2006 to 2024, you taught Theorie, Praxis und Vermittlung von Gegenwartskunst.

00:06:36Not even the Academy in Vienna has a translation for this on their webpage.

00:06:40At the Academy of Fine Arts in Vienna.

00:06:44Just last year, your book, Das 21. Jahrhundert Essays, The 21st Century Essays, was published.

00:06:50You've been called the Pope of Pop.

00:06:53What else is there to say?

00:06:56And last speaker on the panel is Christian Nagel.

00:07:01From 1986 to 1988, you ran the Christoph Dürr Gallery in Munich's Villa Stuck,

00:07:07together with Matthias' book, where you showed exhibitions featuring Clegg and Gottman,

00:07:12Martin Kippenberger, Michael Kreber, Franz West, Heimot Sobernig, Josef Zehrer,

00:07:18and Stefan Dillemuth.

00:07:20And I guess many more.

00:07:21Dillemuth was not in München.

00:07:23Okay, very good.

00:07:25In Cologne.

00:07:25In 1990, you opened your own gallery in Cologne with an exhibition by the artist Cosima von Bonin.

00:07:31In 1992, you were one of the co-founders of Unfair, the real Art Fair,

00:07:36and if I understand correctly, it was you who suggested to Colin DeLand,

00:07:40Patern, Matthew Marks, and Paul Morris to hold a fair in a hotel,

00:07:45which opened in 1994 as the Gramercy International Art Fair,

00:07:50now known as the Armory Show.

00:07:53Objections?

00:07:54No.

00:07:56You were also one of the initiators of Artforum Berlin in 1995-1996.

00:08:02Your Berlin space opened its doors in 2002,

00:08:05but as far as I know, you retained a space in Cologne throughout.

00:08:10Okay.

00:08:11I warmly welcome you all.

00:08:13Thank you for participating in this discussion.

00:08:16My question now is, should I start with my questions,

00:08:19or would you want to pick up on anything in the introduction?

00:08:24Questions?

00:08:24Yeah, okay, maybe I can start.

00:08:28Because I was about, I thought, I'm the wrong person for the 1990s,

00:08:33which I still think I am, in a way,

00:08:37because I think the 1990s would not,

00:08:41could not have happened the way they happened

00:08:43if the 1980s would not have been in Cologne.

00:08:47And the 1980s was a time where, you know,

00:08:51something like this happens historically.

00:08:54I mean, Ryland was always a very area open for art,

00:08:59and a lot of great collectors lived here and everything,

00:09:03and a great artist, especially.

00:09:05But in the specific German history, you know,

00:09:10it was, we were a bit, not underdogs,

00:09:14but we were careful.

00:09:15In the 80s, it really happened

00:09:17that a younger generation, all of a sudden,

00:09:22you know, jumped up, broke certain taboos,

00:09:26started to paint again,

00:09:28in an interesting or bad,

00:09:31as some people say, in an expressive, bad way.

00:09:35And all of a sudden, opened up a new discourse

00:09:39and pointed out again to great artists

00:09:43like Gerhard Richter, Sigmar Polke,

00:09:47even Baselitz, Penck,

00:09:49who have been around,

00:09:51but had not been seen international on that level.

00:09:54And this is the moment,

00:09:57and it was this young group,

00:09:58you know, there was one group,

00:10:00it was called Müller-Mar-Freijert,

00:10:02Dahn, Dokupil, Adamski,

00:10:03and then the other group

00:10:05then came later to Cologne,

00:10:07like Kippenberger, Albert,

00:10:09and Dietrich as a writer.

00:10:13So in this, really, this moment,

00:10:15that was really extremely

00:10:17changed perspective

00:10:20and made Cologne or Germany,

00:10:24again, very interesting for New York.

00:10:27So there was a moment where

00:10:28Cologne and New York

00:10:29were supposed to be

00:10:30the center of the art world.

00:10:33And this, I mean,

00:10:34this is a short version, you know,

00:10:36and this made everything,

00:10:37and there were some established galleries

00:10:39and some who are old ones,

00:10:42like me now,

00:10:44or Max Hetzler,

00:10:45who else came in?

00:10:46I don't remember.

00:10:49Jablonka was there.

00:10:51They were, and they really showed,

00:10:53and if you see

00:10:53the program these galleries had,

00:10:56those are the artists

00:10:57which are still today

00:10:59the ones who define

00:11:00certain aspects of art history

00:11:03as far as you can already say that.

00:11:06And this also made it then

00:11:08so lively, so interesting,

00:11:10so cool, I think, you know.

00:11:12I mean, I was never part of these parties,

00:11:14but it was like this, you know.

00:11:16And then, you know,

00:11:18the little younger generation,

00:11:20like Christiane, Nagel,

00:11:22and there were a few other galleries.

00:11:24They came then in the 90s,

00:11:26and, you know,

00:11:28they would have never come to Cologne

00:11:30if these 80s would not have happened,

00:11:33you know,

00:11:34and that's why for me,

00:11:36in a way,

00:11:37you know, if I think,

00:11:38I don't know, of course,

00:11:40historically how this will be received,

00:11:43you know, years later,

00:11:44but it is really the 80s

00:11:47who are the focus point there

00:11:49where everything, you know, started.

00:11:52So I personally don't remember

00:11:54so much of the 90s

00:11:56except the unfair.

00:11:57That, I thought,

00:11:58was a really interesting aspect.

00:12:00I don't remember so much.

00:12:02That's why I thought

00:12:03I'm wrong here, you know.

00:12:07I'm sure there's many things to be said,

00:12:09but I would like to pass the word

00:12:11to Dietrich Dietrichsen

00:12:12at this moment

00:12:13with two questions.

00:12:15One is you've also been living here

00:12:18in the 80s,

00:12:19so how would you describe

00:12:21the changes to the 90s?

00:12:24Secondly,

00:12:25a little bit more abstract,

00:12:27what do you think of decades

00:12:28as a model of historization?

00:12:30What concrete negations

00:12:32characterize the 90s

00:12:34from your perspective?

00:12:37Yeah.

00:12:41Yes, I would say that,

00:12:42in general,

00:12:45Cologne had the advantage

00:12:48of this old model

00:12:50of division of labor

00:12:51among German cities

00:12:54in the Federal Republic period

00:12:56and Cologne and Düsseldorf

00:12:58were the ones

00:13:00that had the job

00:13:03to have visual arts

00:13:05to have visual arts

00:13:09as a main cultural event

00:13:10whereas Hamburg had media

00:13:12and pop music

00:13:13and Munich had film

00:13:16and so on.

00:13:18Frankfurt had theory

00:13:19and intellectuals

00:13:20and Cologne had artists.

00:13:24So that was something

00:13:25that was always there,

00:13:26but I agree with Monika

00:13:27that it was kind of tumultuous,

00:13:30more tumultuous,

00:13:31and it was the invention

00:13:32of the contemporary art market

00:13:35that had grown since then

00:13:37more or less

00:13:38with some ups and downs

00:13:39and that visual arts

00:13:43or fine art

00:13:45became a social spectacle.

00:13:49They invented the Galerine,

00:13:51what was it called?

00:13:53Galerine Taga

00:13:54or something like that

00:13:54when every gallery

00:13:55would open at the same day.

00:13:56These things that you all know

00:13:58since ages

00:13:58had been new at that time.

00:14:00So that was really a change.

00:14:03The art market

00:14:04was somehow invented

00:14:05and there were certain practices

00:14:07old and new

00:14:08that happened at the same time.

00:14:10But I think these 80s,

00:14:12these Cologne 80s

00:14:13have been studied a lot.

00:14:16There was a huge show

00:14:18by David Zwirner

00:14:20with an even huger catalogue

00:14:22on Cologne and New York.

00:14:24There was...

00:14:26No, the young one.

00:14:28Not really.

00:14:29Later.

00:14:29Then there was

00:14:32a Bennett Simpson's show

00:14:34in Philadelphia

00:14:36on Cologne

00:14:38in the 80s

00:14:39and 90s

00:14:40I think a little bit too.

00:14:42And I was invited

00:14:43to panel discussions

00:14:46on Cologne

00:14:47in the art world

00:14:49of Cologne

00:14:50in the past

00:14:51in general

00:14:51five times

00:14:53in the last four years.

00:14:54So this is the fifth

00:14:55and the only innovation

00:14:57of this one

00:14:57is that it's the 90s

00:14:59and not the 80s.

00:15:02But then

00:15:02about the question

00:15:04about decades.

00:15:05I think that

00:15:06normally

00:15:07it's a

00:15:09journalistic laziness

00:15:12but in this case

00:15:15not.

00:15:1689 really was

00:15:18a shift.

00:15:19It really was a change.

00:15:21And a lot of things

00:15:22that were only

00:15:23digested

00:15:27symbolically

00:15:28or as symbols

00:15:29by the German cultural

00:15:32field

00:15:33in the 70s

00:15:36and 80s

00:15:36that were

00:15:37kind of

00:15:38always digested

00:15:39as if it was

00:15:40translations

00:15:40as if it was

00:15:42some kind of

00:15:43entertainment

00:15:43some symbolical world

00:15:45all of a sudden

00:15:47became real

00:15:48and of course

00:15:49this never happens

00:15:51that something

00:15:51is only symbolic

00:15:52and then it's only real

00:15:53but that was

00:15:55the feeling.

00:15:55The feeling was

00:15:56that all these things

00:15:58that existed

00:15:59on a symbolic level

00:16:00now would exist

00:16:01on a real level

00:16:02and that affected

00:16:04of course

00:16:05the arts too

00:16:05and the other thing

00:16:06was that

00:16:07the main

00:16:09intellectual

00:16:09influence

00:16:11on

00:16:12the cultural

00:16:14world

00:16:14of the

00:16:1570s

00:16:16and 80s

00:16:17especially 80s

00:16:18was more or less

00:16:20roughly speaking

00:16:21French theory

00:16:21and after 89

00:16:24it was

00:16:25anglophonic

00:16:27cultural studies

00:16:28feminism

00:16:28and

00:16:29anti-racism

00:16:33and

00:16:34critique of

00:16:36coloniality

00:16:37and

00:16:37this

00:16:37shift

00:16:40was also

00:16:42very inspiring

00:16:43for the

00:16:44art world

00:16:45and it was

00:16:46also something

00:16:47that Cologne

00:16:47didn't have

00:16:48just

00:16:49on their own

00:16:51it was not

00:16:52just their thing

00:16:53anymore

00:16:53different from

00:16:53the previous

00:16:55period

00:16:55where the

00:16:56art world

00:16:57in Germany

00:16:57basically more or less

00:16:58only happened

00:16:59in Cologne

00:16:59now it had to

00:17:01share it

00:17:03with intellectuals

00:17:04from Frankfurt

00:17:05people who had

00:17:06moved to Berlin

00:17:07and all these

00:17:07other things

00:17:08so it

00:17:08became more

00:17:10what do you say

00:17:12multi-polar

00:17:14so that was

00:17:16one question

00:17:16what was the

00:17:17other one

00:17:17I think

00:17:18the decades

00:17:21the

00:17:21the decades

00:17:22and the

00:17:22the shift

00:17:23from the

00:17:2480s to the

00:17:2590s

00:17:25so I think

00:17:26you answered

00:17:26both

00:17:27yeah

00:17:28thank you

00:17:29Isabel

00:17:30you're smiling

00:17:31would you want

00:17:31to

00:17:32you don't have

00:17:34a question

00:17:34for me

00:17:34no I have

00:17:35a question

00:17:35for you

00:17:36but I don't

00:17:36know if it's

00:17:37still a fit

00:17:37my question

00:17:38for you

00:17:38was just

00:17:38if you

00:17:39moved to

00:17:40Cologne

00:17:41in the

00:17:421990s

00:17:43to found

00:17:43the magazine

00:17:44Texte zur Kunst

00:17:45or if that

00:17:46was something

00:17:47that was

00:17:47like

00:17:47generated

00:17:49from the

00:17:50circumstances

00:17:51in

00:17:51in the city

00:17:53and speaking

00:17:55about Texte zur Kunst

00:17:56I also noted

00:17:57that I found

00:17:58a description

00:17:58of Stefan Gamma

00:17:59of the early days

00:18:00of Texte zur Kunst

00:18:01where it's

00:18:03been described

00:18:04as a decidedly

00:18:05anti-pluralistic

00:18:06magazine

00:18:06which I found

00:18:07a very interesting

00:18:08observation

00:18:09seen from

00:18:10today

00:18:11so yeah

00:18:12maybe

00:18:12you would want

00:18:13to elaborate

00:18:14a bit

00:18:15on the theory

00:18:17that Dietrich

00:18:19Dietrichsen

00:18:19sketched

00:18:20in Germany

00:18:20and that it

00:18:22was suddenly

00:18:22a multi-polar

00:18:23world

00:18:24but then also

00:18:24you moving

00:18:26to Cologne

00:18:26in these years

00:18:27just like

00:18:28Christian Nagel

00:18:28and many others

00:18:29yeah

00:18:30I mean

00:18:30I moved to

00:18:31Cologne

00:18:31in 1988

00:18:32so the magazine

00:18:35was founded

00:18:36in 1990

00:18:36and I moved

00:18:39to Cologne

00:18:40from Paris

00:18:41because I was

00:18:42very attracted

00:18:44by an art scene

00:18:46and artistic production

00:18:47but also by

00:18:48a theoretical

00:18:49kind of discussion

00:18:50that seemed

00:18:52challenging

00:18:52and that seemed

00:18:53to happen

00:18:54in Berlin

00:18:54and therefore

00:18:55Berlin seemed

00:18:56to be the right

00:18:57place for this

00:18:58idea of founding

00:19:00a magazine

00:19:00where art criticism

00:19:02would for the first

00:19:04time maybe

00:19:04in Germany

00:19:05since a long

00:19:06time also

00:19:06have some

00:19:07sort of

00:19:07theoretical ambition

00:19:08and would

00:19:10have the aim

00:19:11of being

00:19:11at the same

00:19:12time

00:19:12social critique

00:19:14one must

00:19:15remember

00:19:15that at the

00:19:16time

00:19:16you know

00:19:17theory

00:19:18was considered

00:19:18really sexy

00:19:19and theorists

00:19:20and critics

00:19:22were up

00:19:24in the hierarchy

00:19:25you know

00:19:26they were

00:19:26kind of

00:19:27looked up to

00:19:27it was

00:19:28something

00:19:29people were

00:19:30very interested

00:19:31in

00:19:31at the same

00:19:32time

00:19:33I mean

00:19:33I would

00:19:34you know

00:19:35also agree

00:19:35with Monica

00:19:36I think

00:19:36we can't

00:19:37speak about

00:19:37the 90s

00:19:39without speaking

00:19:39about the 80s

00:19:40but I also

00:19:42have a worry

00:19:43about our

00:19:44discussion

00:19:44when

00:19:45Christian and I

00:19:47joked before

00:19:48that we'll

00:19:50reunite here

00:19:50in order to

00:19:51say how it

00:19:52really was

00:19:52which of course

00:19:53is impossible

00:19:54and there is

00:19:55a tendency

00:19:56in each of

00:19:57these iterations

00:19:58of the

00:19:58Cologne

00:19:59historization

00:20:00to do

00:20:01something

00:20:02which in

00:20:02German

00:20:02we call

00:20:03retrospective

00:20:04verklärung

00:20:05meaning you

00:20:06retroactively

00:20:07beautify

00:20:08you know

00:20:09the events

00:20:10and even

00:20:11though we

00:20:11are all

00:20:12kind of

00:20:12eyewitnesses

00:20:13and participants

00:20:14in these

00:20:15scenes

00:20:15we of course

00:20:16have you

00:20:16know

00:20:17very

00:20:17very different

00:20:18views

00:20:19which are

00:20:19very much

00:20:19shaped

00:20:20by today

00:20:21for instance

00:20:22I wouldn't

00:20:22agree with

00:20:23Dietrich

00:20:23that

00:20:23that French

00:20:25theory

00:20:25was not

00:20:27so important

00:20:27in the 90s

00:20:28anymore

00:20:29when I'm

00:20:29thinking of

00:20:30the first

00:20:30issues of

00:20:31Texte zur Kunst

00:20:32more or less

00:20:32every issue

00:20:33had you know

00:20:34either an

00:20:35interview with

00:20:35Bordieu or

00:20:36Derrida or

00:20:37you know

00:20:38that was still

00:20:39going on

00:20:39because you

00:20:39were from

00:20:40Paris

00:20:40exactly

00:20:41that's true

00:20:43I insisted

00:20:44on that

00:20:44and also

00:20:48we were reading

00:20:48Stuart Hall

00:20:49anyway

00:20:49yeah

00:20:49but of course

00:20:50it's also true

00:20:51what Dietrich

00:20:51said

00:20:52cultural studies

00:20:53and at the

00:20:54time it was

00:20:55also called

00:20:55visual studies

00:20:56was very

00:20:57important for

00:20:58us and for

00:20:58Texte zur Kunst

00:20:59and this was

00:21:00something that

00:21:01you know

00:21:02that differentiated

00:21:03us from

00:21:04October magazine

00:21:05which basically

00:21:06had a whole

00:21:07academic battle

00:21:08going on

00:21:09against cultural

00:21:10studies and

00:21:11tried to

00:21:12delegitimize

00:21:13the knowledge

00:21:14implied in

00:21:16cultural studies

00:21:17was also

00:21:18very much

00:21:19against what

00:21:20was called

00:21:20spectacle culture

00:21:21at the time

00:21:22and often still

00:21:23is

00:21:23totalized on

00:21:25popular culture

00:21:25and we

00:21:26with Texte zur Kunst

00:21:27we were really

00:21:27interested in

00:21:28integrating

00:21:29popular cultural

00:21:30phenomenons

00:21:31and reflecting

00:21:32them as well

00:21:33and taking

00:21:33them seriously

00:21:34and we also

00:21:35wanted to

00:21:36consider artists

00:21:37as discourse

00:21:39producers

00:21:39for us it was

00:21:41very important

00:21:41to integrate

00:21:43artists as

00:21:44authors of

00:21:45the magazine

00:21:46one last point

00:21:48about the

00:21:48historization

00:21:49of Cologne

00:21:51there have been

00:21:52indeed many

00:21:53different

00:21:53stations

00:21:55since the

00:21:56early 90s

00:21:56when it comes

00:21:57to this

00:21:57historization

00:21:58and one of

00:21:59the most

00:22:00extreme ones

00:22:01I think

00:22:01was indeed

00:22:01Bennett Simpson's

00:22:03exhibition from

00:22:042006

00:22:04called

00:22:05Make Your Own

00:22:06Life

00:22:07Artists in and

00:22:08Out of Cologne

00:22:09in the 90s

00:22:10and it was

00:22:10very much

00:22:12focused on the

00:22:1390s

00:22:13also on the

00:22:1480s

00:22:14and it did

00:22:14produce

00:22:15also what

00:22:16Merlin Carpenter's

00:22:17painting

00:22:18which he actually

00:22:19did for the

00:22:20show called

00:22:21Fantasy of

00:22:22Cologne

00:22:23there were

00:22:23also a lot

00:22:24of kind

00:22:24of fantasies

00:22:26going on

00:22:27and I think

00:22:27we have to

00:22:28be aware

00:22:29of that

00:22:30there is

00:22:30no such

00:22:31thing as

00:22:32the truth

00:22:33about Cologne

00:22:35in the 90s

00:22:36there are

00:22:37retroactive

00:22:37projections

00:22:38and attempts

00:22:39to make sense

00:22:40of a time

00:22:41that we all

00:22:43lived through

00:22:43I agree

00:22:46before this

00:22:47panel a friend

00:22:48sent me a

00:22:49text message

00:22:49that she had

00:22:50seen a room

00:22:51in the

00:22:53Museum of

00:22:53Modern Art

00:22:54in New York

00:22:54called Cologne

00:22:55a few years

00:22:56ago

00:22:57just like

00:22:58there are

00:22:58rooms like

00:22:59minimalism

00:23:00or anything

00:23:00so the

00:23:01historization

00:23:02already has

00:23:03happened

00:23:04I couldn't

00:23:05agree more

00:23:05so the only

00:23:06way to make

00:23:07this productive

00:23:08is to

00:23:09question it

00:23:10I would say

00:23:11but let's

00:23:12still stay

00:23:13try to stay

00:23:14a little bit

00:23:15in the past

00:23:16Christian Nagel

00:23:17why did you

00:23:18come here

00:23:19in the 90s

00:23:20and what

00:23:21were you doing

00:23:21I started

00:23:23a gallery

00:23:23as you said

00:23:24in 86

00:23:24in Munich

00:23:26I showed

00:23:26basically

00:23:27people

00:23:27I was about

00:23:2825 years old

00:23:29I worked

00:23:29with Antjea's

00:23:30book

00:23:30we both

00:23:30were art

00:23:32students

00:23:32in Munich

00:23:33we listened

00:23:34to lectures

00:23:35of Hans Belting

00:23:36who was

00:23:37an art historian

00:23:38who contextualized

00:23:39art history

00:23:40so to speak

00:23:41together with

00:23:41Martin Wahnke

00:23:42so there

00:23:43was already

00:23:44something

00:23:44we learned

00:23:45as students

00:23:45that not

00:23:46the art

00:23:46work

00:23:47in itself

00:23:48is the

00:23:48important thing

00:23:49but also

00:23:49the surrounding

00:23:50this was

00:23:51maybe

00:23:51a little

00:23:52reason

00:23:52why later

00:23:53I started

00:23:54to work

00:23:54with people

00:23:55who are

00:23:55summarized

00:23:56as

00:23:56contextual

00:23:57artists

00:23:57and actually

00:23:59I was in

00:23:59New York

00:24:00with my

00:24:00galerist

00:24:02and I said

00:24:03can I show

00:24:04this artist

00:24:05and the

00:24:07colleague said

00:24:07yes but

00:24:07not in

00:24:08Munich

00:24:08and then I

00:24:09said why

00:24:10Munich is a

00:24:11B city

00:24:11then I

00:24:14said BMW

00:24:15Siemens

00:24:15etc

00:24:16it's all

00:24:16B but

00:24:17you're right

00:24:17it's not

00:24:18the art

00:24:18city

00:24:19apart from

00:24:19maybe Friedrich

00:24:20in Dahlem

00:24:21in the

00:24:2160s

00:24:21and then

00:24:23I broke

00:24:23up with

00:24:23my partner

00:24:24and I

00:24:24had to

00:24:25go somewhere

00:24:25else

00:24:26and then

00:24:26I decided

00:24:27to come

00:24:27to Cologne

00:24:28and I

00:24:28opened here

00:24:29in 1990

00:24:30and something

00:24:32else

00:24:33the 80s

00:24:34would probably

00:24:35not have

00:24:35happened

00:24:35without the

00:24:3660s

00:24:37and 70s

00:24:38and without

00:24:40Schmieler

00:24:41Zwirner

00:24:42Werner

00:24:42etc

00:24:43so this

00:24:43was all

00:24:44a post-war

00:24:44thing

00:24:45which was

00:24:46built

00:24:46in an

00:24:47area

00:24:48where there

00:24:48was not

00:24:49so much

00:24:49emphasize

00:24:50on high

00:24:51bourgeois

00:24:52things

00:24:52but maybe

00:24:53on contemporary

00:24:54art

00:24:54and this

00:24:55was a

00:24:55whole line

00:24:56and we

00:24:57maybe

00:24:57Monica

00:24:58sprüht

00:24:58not want

00:24:59to speak

00:24:59about the

00:25:0080s

00:25:00in Cologne

00:25:01so much

00:25:01because it

00:25:02was also

00:25:02the starting

00:25:03point

00:25:03of the

00:25:03decline

00:25:04of Cologne

00:25:05the 90s

00:25:07sorry

00:25:08what did you

00:25:08say

00:25:08I have

00:25:09not

00:25:09understand

00:25:09this

00:25:10was the

00:25:13time

00:25:13when the

00:25:14people

00:25:14closed

00:25:14this

00:25:15was the

00:25:15time

00:25:15when the

00:25:15people

00:25:16started

00:25:17to move

00:25:17to Berlin

00:25:19first

00:25:19the galleries

00:25:20then the

00:25:20artists

00:25:21then the

00:25:21magazine

00:25:22etc

00:25:23we tried

00:25:24to stay

00:25:25here

00:25:25we're still

00:25:25here

00:25:26it's

00:25:26okay

00:25:27but the

00:25:2890s

00:25:29were also

00:25:30the end

00:25:30of the

00:25:30development

00:25:32starting

00:25:33in the

00:25:34late

00:25:3450s

00:25:35the end

00:25:37of the

00:25:38division

00:25:39of the

00:25:40arts

00:25:40in old

00:25:41Germany

00:25:41everyone

00:25:42moved to

00:25:43Berlin

00:25:43not only

00:25:44the visual

00:25:44arts

00:25:44Andrea

00:25:48how did

00:25:50all that

00:25:50look

00:25:50from a

00:25:51New York

00:25:51perspective

00:25:52look

00:25:55from a

00:25:55New York

00:25:56perspective

00:25:56well

00:25:57I came

00:25:58to

00:25:59Cologne

00:25:59for the

00:26:00first time

00:26:00I think

00:26:00it was

00:26:01the summer

00:26:01of

00:26:011990

00:26:03I met

00:26:04Christian

00:26:05in New

00:26:05York

00:26:05in

00:26:0689

00:26:06I met

00:26:07Isabel

00:26:07in New

00:26:07York

00:26:08like in

00:26:0885

00:26:09right

00:26:10yes

00:26:11well I

00:26:13was at

00:26:14the

00:26:14Whitney

00:26:14program

00:26:15the

00:26:15Whitney

00:26:15independent

00:26:15study

00:26:16program

00:26:16which I

00:26:17think

00:26:17was

00:26:17an

00:26:18influence

00:26:18indeed

00:26:19certainly

00:26:21on me

00:26:21and I

00:26:21think

00:26:21also

00:26:22on you

00:26:22although

00:26:23you

00:26:23weren't

00:26:23a

00:26:23student

00:26:24there

00:26:24but

00:26:24looking

00:26:25at

00:26:25the

00:26:25theory

00:26:25that

00:26:26was

00:26:26generated

00:26:27there

00:26:27and the

00:26:28critical

00:26:28practices

00:26:29that were

00:26:30developing

00:26:30out of

00:26:30the

00:26:30Whitney

00:26:31program

00:26:31that

00:26:31later

00:26:32became

00:26:32associated

00:26:33largely

00:26:33with

00:26:34institutional

00:26:34critique

00:26:35and

00:26:35with

00:26:35context

00:26:36constant

00:26:36framing

00:26:37that

00:26:38really

00:26:38developed

00:26:38here

00:26:39to a

00:26:39large

00:26:39extent

00:26:40you

00:26:40know

00:26:40in

00:26:41Cologne

00:26:41so

00:26:42it's

00:26:43interesting

00:26:44to think

00:26:44about

00:26:44the

00:26:4480s

00:26:45did I

00:26:46cut out

00:26:47because

00:26:48I

00:26:48developed

00:26:48in

00:26:49New York

00:26:49in the

00:26:4980s

00:26:50in a

00:26:50context

00:26:51of

00:26:51a

00:26:51very

00:26:51sort

00:26:52of

00:26:52polemical

00:26:52art

00:26:53discourse

00:26:53polemics

00:26:55within

00:26:55art

00:26:55discourse

00:26:56and art

00:26:56practice

00:26:57with

00:26:57the

00:26:58new

00:26:58painting

00:26:58that

00:26:59was

00:26:59coming

00:26:59out

00:27:00of

00:27:00Cologne

00:27:01and

00:27:01Berlin

00:27:02and

00:27:02parts

00:27:03of

00:27:03Italy

00:27:03and

00:27:04other

00:27:04parts

00:27:04of

00:27:04Europe

00:27:04as

00:27:04well

00:27:05as

00:27:05the

00:27:05US

00:27:05and

00:27:07the

00:27:08sort

00:27:08of

00:27:09framework

00:27:09of

00:27:09my

00:27:10generation

00:27:11I

00:27:12think

00:27:12of

00:27:13institutional

00:27:15critique

00:27:15neoconceptualism

00:27:16critical art

00:27:17practice

00:27:17developed out

00:27:18of that

00:27:18polemic

00:27:19and

00:27:20I

00:27:22think

00:27:22we

00:27:22saw

00:27:23in

00:27:23Europe

00:27:24or we

00:27:24found

00:27:25in

00:27:25Europe

00:27:25and

00:27:25especially

00:27:26in

00:27:26Cologne

00:27:26a

00:27:27sort

00:27:27of

00:27:27reception

00:27:27for

00:27:28those

00:27:29practices

00:27:30and those

00:27:30perspectives

00:27:31that we

00:27:31didn't find

00:27:32in the

00:27:32US

00:27:33in the

00:27:33same

00:27:33way

00:27:35and

00:27:35my

00:27:35understanding

00:27:35of

00:27:36that

00:27:36was

00:27:36it

00:27:36had

00:27:36a

00:27:36lot

00:27:37to

00:27:37do

00:27:37with

00:27:38the

00:27:38history

00:27:39of

00:27:39the

00:27:39Rhineland

00:27:40specifically

00:27:40and

00:27:41kind

00:27:41of

00:27:41going

00:27:41back

00:27:42especially

00:27:43to

00:27:43the

00:27:4360s

00:27:43and

00:27:4470s

00:27:44and

00:27:44the

00:27:45avant-garde

00:27:45galleries

00:27:46of the

00:27:46Rhineland

00:27:46of

00:27:47Dusseldorf

00:27:47and Cologne

00:27:47that had

00:27:48been

00:27:48such

00:27:48an

00:27:49important

00:27:49context

00:27:50for

00:27:51conceptual

00:27:51art

00:27:52and

00:27:54so

00:27:54I

00:27:54think

00:27:54my

00:27:55sense

00:27:55was

00:27:55it

00:27:55was

00:27:56that

00:27:56history

00:27:56that

00:27:56partly

00:27:57created

00:27:57the

00:27:57context

00:27:58for

00:27:58the

00:27:58reception

00:27:59of

00:28:00the

00:28:00neoconceptualists

00:28:01of my

00:28:02generation

00:28:02and

00:28:04yeah

00:28:07I had

00:28:07my first

00:28:08gallery

00:28:08anywhere

00:28:10at the

00:28:11age of

00:28:1125

00:28:12here in

00:28:12Cologne

00:28:13in

00:28:13Noggle

00:28:14Gallery

00:28:14and that

00:28:15was sort

00:28:16of on

00:28:16the heels

00:28:17of

00:28:17Colin

00:28:18DeLand

00:28:18my

00:28:19art

00:28:20gallery

00:28:21that I

00:28:21was affiliated

00:28:22with

00:28:22in

00:28:22New York

00:28:23American

00:28:23Fine

00:28:23Arts

00:28:24came

00:28:24to

00:28:24Art

00:28:24Cologne

00:28:25and

00:28:25in

00:28:2689

00:28:26with

00:28:28a

00:28:28booth

00:28:28that

00:28:29I

00:28:29mean

00:28:29I

00:28:29think

00:28:29he

00:28:29threw

00:28:30a

00:28:30couple

00:28:30of

00:28:30videos

00:28:30and

00:28:31some

00:28:31posters

00:28:31in

00:28:31a

00:28:31suitcase

00:28:32and

00:28:33put

00:28:34on

00:28:34video

00:28:36fireplace

00:28:36the

00:28:37Jane Fonda

00:28:38workout

00:28:38tape

00:28:39and

00:28:39one

00:28:39of

00:28:39my

00:28:39videos

00:28:40and

00:28:41put

00:28:41some

00:28:41posters

00:28:41up

00:28:42and

00:28:42this

00:28:43made

00:28:43a

00:28:43big

00:28:43splash

00:28:44and

00:28:44all

00:28:44of

00:28:44a

00:28:44sudden

00:28:44I

00:28:44started

00:28:45getting

00:28:45calls

00:28:45from

00:28:46all

00:28:46over

00:28:46Europe

00:28:47it

00:28:47was

00:28:47a

00:28:47different

00:28:47time

00:28:48clearly

00:28:48when

00:28:49something

00:28:50like

00:28:50that

00:28:50would

00:28:50actually

00:28:51have

00:28:51an

00:28:51impact

00:28:52at

00:28:52an

00:28:52art

00:28:52fair

00:28:52but

00:28:54I

00:28:54think

00:28:54there

00:28:54was

00:28:54also

00:28:55a

00:28:55context

00:28:55in

00:28:56Cologne

00:28:56and

00:28:57in

00:28:57the

00:28:57art

00:28:58fair

00:28:58in

00:28:58Cologne

00:28:59that

00:28:59sort

00:29:00of

00:29:00created

00:29:00a

00:29:01reception

00:29:01for

00:29:01that

00:29:02approach

00:29:03so

00:29:04yeah

00:29:05would

00:29:06there

00:29:06be a

00:29:06moment

00:29:07for

00:29:07your

00:29:07video

00:29:07sure

00:29:09yeah

00:29:09could

00:29:10we

00:29:10kill

00:29:10some

00:29:11time

00:29:11yeah

00:29:13so

00:29:14in

00:29:14and

00:29:14then

00:29:15in

00:29:15well

00:29:16in

00:29:161990

00:29:17when

00:29:17I

00:29:17had

00:29:17my

00:29:18exhibition

00:29:18in

00:29:18Nagel

00:29:20gallery

00:29:20so

00:29:21you

00:29:21were

00:29:21in

00:29:21the

00:29:21fair

00:29:21in

00:29:2289

00:29:22no

00:29:23you

00:29:23weren't

00:29:23in

00:29:23the

00:29:24fair

00:29:24in

00:29:2489

00:29:24you

00:29:24weren't

00:29:25in

00:29:25the

00:29:25fair

00:29:25until

00:29:2591

00:29:26it

00:29:26was

00:29:26the

00:29:26first

00:29:26time

00:29:27so

00:29:27I

00:29:28sort

00:29:28of

00:29:28created

00:29:29a

00:29:29replica

00:29:29of

00:29:30an

00:29:31art

00:29:31cologne

00:29:32booth

00:29:32in

00:29:33the

00:29:33gallery

00:29:33with

00:29:35the

00:29:35furniture

00:29:35and

00:29:36the

00:29:36wall

00:29:36covering

00:29:37and

00:29:37the

00:29:37floor

00:29:37covering

00:29:38but

00:29:39then

00:29:39the

00:29:39year

00:29:39after

00:29:40that

00:29:40in

00:29:4091

00:29:41when

00:29:42Christian

00:29:43was

00:29:43at

00:29:43the

00:29:43fair

00:29:43I

00:29:44came

00:29:44back

00:29:44oh

00:29:45yes

00:29:46that

00:29:47is

00:29:47my

00:29:47exhibition

00:29:48we

00:29:50built

00:29:50a

00:29:50booth

00:29:51of

00:29:51the

00:29:51art

00:29:52cologne

00:29:52we

00:29:52took

00:29:53the

00:29:53walls

00:29:53from

00:29:54there

00:29:54we

00:29:54bought

00:29:55the

00:29:55same

00:29:55floor

00:29:55and

00:29:56it

00:29:56was

00:29:56like

00:29:56an

00:29:57art

00:29:57fair

00:29:57booth

00:29:57in

00:29:57the

00:29:58gallery

00:29:58which

00:29:59showed

00:29:59the

00:29:59retrospective

00:30:00of a

00:30:0025th

00:30:01year old

00:30:02I had

00:30:03very little

00:30:03work

00:30:04but

00:30:05what

00:30:05I

00:30:05did

00:30:05the

00:30:05main

00:30:06piece

00:30:06was

00:30:06the

00:30:06book

00:30:07on

00:30:07the

00:30:07table

00:30:07there

00:30:08which

00:30:09is

00:30:09like

00:30:09a

00:30:10gallery

00:30:10presentation

00:30:10book

00:30:11but

00:30:12it

00:30:12goes

00:30:13back

00:30:13to

00:30:13it

00:30:14starts

00:30:14with

00:30:14my

00:30:14exhibition

00:30:15but

00:30:15it

00:30:15goes

00:30:15back

00:30:15to

00:30:151945

00:30:16and

00:30:17it's

00:30:17an

00:30:17archive

00:30:18of

00:30:18American

00:30:19art

00:30:19in

00:30:19post-war

00:30:20Germany

00:30:20and

00:30:20especially

00:30:21Cologne

00:30:21so

00:30:22that

00:30:22was

00:30:22also

00:30:23part

00:30:23of

00:30:23my

00:30:23trying

00:30:24to

00:30:24understand

00:30:25what

00:30:26my

00:30:27reception

00:30:27was

00:30:28and

00:30:28why

00:30:28I

00:30:28was

00:30:28having

00:30:28this

00:30:29show

00:30:29in

00:30:29Cologne

00:30:30of

00:30:30all

00:30:30places

00:30:31as

00:30:31a

00:30:32young

00:30:32American

00:30:32so

00:30:33it

00:30:33sort

00:30:33of

00:30:34goes

00:30:34through

00:30:34the

00:30:36American

00:30:37sort

00:30:38of

00:30:38exportation

00:30:39of

00:30:39American

00:30:39art

00:30:40through

00:30:40the

00:30:40Museum

00:30:41of

00:30:41Modern

00:30:41Art

00:30:41through

00:30:42the

00:30:42Marshall

00:30:42Plan

00:30:42initially

00:30:43the

00:30:43American

00:30:43houses

00:30:44the

00:30:44Museum

00:30:45of

00:30:45Modern

00:30:45Art

00:30:45exhibitions

00:30:46of

00:30:46the

00:30:46International

00:30:47Committee

00:30:48that

00:30:48were

00:30:48circulated

00:30:49as part

00:30:50of

00:30:50Cold

00:30:50War

00:30:50Policy

00:30:51and

00:30:51then

00:30:51the

00:30:52establishment

00:30:52of

00:30:52Art

00:30:52Cologne

00:30:53which

00:30:53had

00:30:53a

00:30:53real

00:30:54focus

00:30:54on

00:30:54pop

00:30:54art

00:30:55in

00:30:56the

00:30:56early

00:30:56years

00:30:56so

00:30:57that

00:30:57was

00:30:57also

00:30:57part

00:30:58of

00:30:58the

00:30:58context

00:30:58yeah

00:31:01so

00:31:02in

00:31:0291

00:31:02I

00:31:02came

00:31:02back

00:31:03and

00:31:03I

00:31:03and

00:31:03I

00:31:03performed

00:31:04out of

00:31:05Christian

00:31:05Nagel's

00:31:06booth

00:31:06I

00:31:06performed

00:31:07a

00:31:07piece

00:31:08called

00:31:08May I

00:31:09Help

00:31:09You

00:31:09and

00:31:09it

00:31:09was

00:31:09the

00:31:10first

00:31:10time

00:31:10that

00:31:10I

00:31:10had

00:31:10performed

00:31:11it

00:31:11myself

00:31:11previously

00:31:12it

00:31:12was

00:31:12performed

00:31:13by

00:31:14actors

00:31:14and

00:31:15we

00:31:15have

00:31:15a

00:31:15video

00:31:15that

00:31:16I

00:31:16just

00:31:16recently

00:31:17edited

00:31:17that

00:31:18was

00:31:18shot

00:31:18mostly

00:31:19by

00:31:19Stefan

00:31:19Dillamuth

00:31:20and

00:31:21there

00:31:21are

00:31:21some

00:31:21other

00:31:21figures

00:31:22who

00:31:22are

00:31:22in

00:31:22the

00:31:23you

00:31:23see

00:31:23in

00:31:24the

00:31:24video

00:31:24like

00:31:24Nils

00:31:25Norman

00:31:25and

00:31:25Merlin

00:31:27Carpenters

00:31:29is in

00:31:29there

00:31:29at

00:31:29some

00:31:29point

00:31:30but

00:31:30can

00:31:30we

00:31:31show

00:31:31that

00:31:31a

00:31:35little

00:31:35bit

00:31:35it's

00:31:35a

00:31:36very

00:31:36rough

00:31:36video

00:31:37but

00:31:37um

00:31:51pleasant

00:31:53things are

00:32:18non-necessary

00:32:19things

00:32:20that's

00:32:20our

00:32:20inheritance

00:32:21freedom

00:32:22from

00:32:22the

00:32:22lower

00:32:22coarse

00:32:23vulgar

00:32:23servile

00:32:24material

00:32:25demands

00:32:25of the

00:32:25social

00:32:26world

00:32:26it's

00:32:27the

00:32:28illusion

00:32:28first

00:32:28of all

00:32:29that

00:32:29it

00:32:29hasn't

00:32:29been

00:32:29made

00:32:30that

00:32:30none

00:32:30of

00:32:31this

00:32:31was

00:32:31paid

00:32:31for

00:32:31nothing

00:32:32will

00:32:32be

00:32:32wrong

00:32:32it

00:32:33hangs

00:32:33there

00:32:33as if

00:32:34it

00:32:34just

00:32:34spread

00:32:34itself

00:32:35out

00:32:35before

00:32:35it's

00:32:36always

00:32:38been

00:32:39there

00:32:39and

00:32:40the

00:32:40only

00:32:42work

00:32:42you

00:32:42do

00:32:42is

00:32:43I

00:32:44want

00:32:44it

00:32:44and I

00:32:45am

00:32:45it

00:32:46it's

00:32:46as

00:32:46simple

00:32:47as that

00:32:47and then

00:32:47you

00:32:48produce

00:32:48its value

00:32:49an inward

00:32:50value

00:32:50an emotional

00:32:51value

00:32:51when

00:32:52you

00:32:52wanted

00:32:53it

00:32:53you

00:32:53looked

00:32:54for

00:32:54it

00:32:54and at

00:32:55last

00:32:55you

00:32:55found

00:32:56it

00:32:56and you

00:32:57will

00:32:57miss

00:32:58it

00:32:58your

00:32:59collection

00:32:59expresses

00:33:00the texture

00:33:01and quality

00:33:01and even

00:33:02the smell

00:33:02of your life

00:33:03it permeates

00:33:04everything about you

00:33:04you're branded

00:33:06by the objects

00:33:06you love

00:33:07they mark you

00:33:08as the property

00:33:09of your culture

00:33:09the property

00:33:10of your

00:33:11plants

00:33:11imagine

00:33:12this picture

00:33:13tattooed

00:33:14on my shoulder

00:33:15it's like that

00:33:16imagine the clothes

00:33:17I'm wearing

00:33:18and the rest

00:33:18of my environment

00:33:19and then the whole

00:33:21thing is turned

00:33:22inside out

00:33:23so that it's

00:33:24stuck inside

00:33:25you know these

00:33:28it's always with you

00:33:33it's inside

00:33:33and it's outside

00:33:34at the same time

00:33:35it's a present

00:33:37day the way

00:33:45I was born

00:33:53my mother

00:33:55you know

00:33:55was an extremely

00:33:55cultured

00:33:56and attractive

00:33:58singular

00:33:59the best

00:34:00society

00:34:00the best

00:34:01individual

00:34:01the best

00:34:01standards

00:34:02of the

00:34:02go back

00:34:17go back a little bit

00:34:30okay

00:34:31you can

00:34:32maybe now

00:34:32well

00:34:35I suppose

00:34:36I always

00:34:37spoke up

00:34:37for everyone's

00:34:38right to have

00:34:38their own tastes

00:34:39why not

00:34:40at least

00:34:41they have

00:34:42a taste

00:34:42actually

00:34:43rewind a little bit

00:34:45it's so simple

00:34:46and fervent

00:34:47okay

00:34:49maybe now

00:34:54if you stuck

00:34:57a piece of shit

00:34:58on the wall

00:34:58you'd always say

00:34:59to them

00:34:59as long as someone

00:35:00told them the shit

00:35:00you'd work much

00:35:01that's the new

00:35:02go reach approach

00:35:03and I detest

00:35:06superiors

00:35:06I bought them

00:35:07midnaps and

00:35:08treatments I

00:35:08distributed to

00:35:09all in sundry

00:35:10but I'd never

00:35:11clutter myself

00:35:12off

00:35:12may we have

00:35:13some quiet

00:35:14in here

00:35:14please

00:35:15yeah we couldn't

00:35:40quite organize

00:35:41the cue points

00:35:42there

00:35:43but

00:35:43so

00:35:44thank you

00:35:47so it's

00:35:49it's

00:35:50watching this

00:35:51it was kind of

00:35:52extraordinary

00:35:52to imagine

00:35:53I mean

00:35:53an art

00:35:55an art

00:35:56a gallery

00:35:57today

00:35:57allowing me

00:35:58to do

00:35:59something like that

00:36:00you know

00:36:00in their booth

00:36:01at an art fair

00:36:01just given

00:36:02what the economics

00:36:03of

00:36:03participating

00:36:05in art fairs

00:36:06have become

00:36:07and how

00:36:09you know

00:36:10I think that

00:36:10probably wasn't

00:36:11very good for sales

00:36:12but

00:36:13I don't know

00:36:14I did drive

00:36:15people out of the

00:36:15book

00:36:16it was okay

00:36:17yeah

00:36:17but

00:36:19I don't know

00:36:21what

00:36:22we want to say

00:36:23about it

00:36:23yeah

00:36:26anybody want to

00:36:28comment on this

00:36:29yeah

00:36:29I was just

00:36:30thinking

00:36:31about what you

00:36:32said

00:36:33before

00:36:34referring to

00:36:35your

00:36:36may I help

00:36:36you performance

00:36:37about the

00:36:38situation

00:36:38in New York

00:36:40where there was

00:36:41this polarity

00:36:42between

00:36:43on the one

00:36:44hand

00:36:45institutional

00:36:46critique

00:36:47post-conceptual

00:36:48procedures

00:36:49and on the

00:36:51one other

00:36:51hand

00:36:52what was

00:36:52termed

00:36:53pejoratively

00:36:54at the time

00:36:55neo-expressionist

00:36:56painting

00:36:57and I was

00:36:58thinking about

00:36:59this

00:37:00dualism

00:37:01and how

00:37:02I think

00:37:02what we

00:37:03try to do

00:37:04possibly not

00:37:06even so

00:37:06consciously

00:37:07with

00:37:07was

00:37:09question

00:37:09that

00:37:10polarity

00:37:10because

00:37:11when you

00:37:12look at

00:37:12the first

00:37:12issues

00:37:13you see

00:37:14texts

00:37:15on your

00:37:15work

00:37:16on Farida

00:37:16Marley's

00:37:17work

00:37:17on Christian

00:37:18Philipp

00:37:18Müller's

00:37:19work

00:37:19on

00:37:20René

00:37:20Green's

00:37:20work

00:37:21juxtaposed

00:37:22next to

00:37:23texts

00:37:24on

00:37:24Jörg

00:37:25Immendorf's

00:37:25work

00:37:26Kippenberger's

00:37:27work

00:37:27so I

00:37:28think

00:37:29what I

00:37:30later

00:37:31tried to

00:37:31kind of

00:37:31come to

00:37:32terms

00:37:32was I

00:37:32was

00:37:32thinking

00:37:33maybe

00:37:34there was

00:37:35something

00:37:35expressive

00:37:36about

00:37:36conceptual

00:37:37practices

00:37:38and maybe

00:37:39there was

00:37:40something

00:37:40conceptual

00:37:42about

00:37:42these

00:37:43painterly

00:37:43practices

00:37:44and then

00:37:44I was

00:37:45thinking

00:37:45about

00:37:45your

00:37:46Kunstmus Hengen

00:37:47kind of

00:37:48take on

00:37:49Kippenberger's

00:37:50persona

00:37:51so to

00:37:52speak

00:37:52so I

00:37:53think

00:37:54that there

00:37:54was an

00:37:54interesting

00:37:55tension

00:37:56there

00:37:56that was

00:37:57very

00:37:57productive

00:37:58and that

00:37:58maybe

00:37:59also had

00:37:59to do

00:38:00with

00:38:00Cologne's

00:38:01attraction

00:38:03that

00:38:04both

00:38:05I mean

00:38:05I'm

00:38:06totalizing

00:38:07a little

00:38:07bit

00:38:07but

00:38:07that

00:38:08these

00:38:08approaches

00:38:08coexisted

00:38:10next to

00:38:10each

00:38:11other

00:38:11negated

00:38:12each

00:38:12other

00:38:13but also

00:38:13influenced

00:38:14each

00:38:14other

00:38:15a lot

00:38:15like

00:38:15Kippenberger

00:38:16saying in

00:38:17the interview

00:38:17how important

00:38:18Luis Lawler's

00:38:19work was

00:38:20for him

00:38:20you know

00:38:21that

00:38:21these

00:38:22this was

00:38:23interesting

00:38:25also in

00:38:25retrospect

00:38:26I think

00:38:26where the

00:38:29survivors of

00:38:30the

00:38:30neo-expressionist

00:38:31period

00:38:31they

00:38:33acknowledged

00:38:34neo-conceptualism

00:38:36and the

00:38:37other ones

00:38:37we have

00:38:38forgotten

00:38:38those who

00:38:40did not

00:38:40acknowledge

00:38:41neo-conceptualist

00:38:43practices

00:38:43but they

00:38:44existed

00:38:45they were

00:38:46there

00:38:46but I

00:38:47think that

00:38:48also speaks

00:38:49to the

00:38:49sort of

00:38:50reductiveness

00:38:50of the

00:38:51perspectives in

00:38:52New York

00:38:53about neo-

00:38:53expressionism

00:38:54that there

00:38:54was a lot

00:38:55more

00:38:55complexity

00:38:55among that

00:38:57group of

00:38:57artists

00:38:58and that

00:38:58sort of

00:38:58field of

00:38:59practice

00:38:59that I

00:38:59think was

00:39:00recognized

00:39:00by the

00:39:02critics in

00:39:02the US

00:39:03who were

00:39:04engaged in

00:39:04those

00:39:04polemics

00:39:05I have a

00:39:08question

00:39:09listening to

00:39:09you speak

00:39:10about the

00:39:1190s

00:39:11let's stick

00:39:11to this

00:39:12term for

00:39:12now

00:39:13it feels

00:39:15like there

00:39:15was an

00:39:16artist

00:39:16dealer

00:39:17critic

00:39:17system

00:39:18a properly

00:39:19working

00:39:20artist

00:39:20dealer

00:39:20critic

00:39:21system

00:39:21maybe also

00:39:21reflected

00:39:22in the

00:39:23people

00:39:23that are

00:39:23sitting

00:39:23on stage

00:39:24today

00:39:25with that

00:39:26I mean

00:39:27there were

00:39:28artists

00:39:29that are

00:39:30maybe

00:39:30influential

00:39:30until today

00:39:31galleries

00:39:32we have

00:39:33two

00:39:34representatives

00:39:34sitting here

00:39:35and also

00:39:37critics

00:39:37so what

00:39:38was with

00:39:39an institutional

00:39:40landscape

00:39:41this is

00:39:41something also

00:39:42in the

00:39:42different

00:39:42phases of

00:39:43historization

00:39:44of the

00:39:4490s

00:39:45that I

00:39:45do not

00:39:46properly

00:39:46understand

00:39:48if that

00:39:49field wasn't

00:39:50of any

00:39:52importance

00:39:52I have

00:39:53here

00:39:54here

00:39:54and I

00:39:55cannot

00:39:55really

00:39:56understand

00:39:56everything

00:39:57you

00:39:57say

00:39:57can you

00:39:58yeah

00:39:58the question

00:39:59is in

00:39:59some way

00:40:00very

00:40:00simple

00:40:00seen from

00:40:02now

00:40:02it feels

00:40:02like there

00:40:03was an

00:40:03artist

00:40:04dealer

00:40:04critic

00:40:05system

00:40:05in the

00:40:0690s

00:40:06in Cologne

00:40:07in all

00:40:08these

00:40:09phases of

00:40:09historization

00:40:10there's

00:40:11not so

00:40:12much talk

00:40:13about

00:40:13Kunstvereine

00:40:14or museums

00:40:16or places

00:40:16like this

00:40:17in this

00:40:18Cologne

00:40:18scene

00:40:18seems to

00:40:20have been

00:40:20determined

00:40:20by what

00:40:21artists

00:40:22did

00:40:22what critics

00:40:23wrote

00:40:23and what

00:40:24gallerists

00:40:25showed

00:40:25is that

00:40:26just my

00:40:27impression

00:40:28or is

00:40:28that

00:40:28something

00:40:29that you

00:40:30could

00:40:30explain

00:40:31as a

00:40:31mode of

00:40:32production

00:40:32back then

00:40:33I mean

00:40:33the

00:40:33gallery

00:40:34system

00:40:34was always

00:40:36very tense

00:40:37and very

00:40:38self-organized

00:40:38and the

00:40:39people

00:40:39who had

00:40:40good

00:40:41galleries

00:40:41know what

00:40:44they did

00:40:44and they

00:40:44organized

00:40:45their

00:40:45distribution

00:40:46and the

00:40:47exhibition

00:40:47themselves

00:40:48of course

00:40:49there were

00:40:49people

00:40:50who showed

00:40:51it

00:40:51in Kunstvereine

00:40:52in museums

00:40:54and things

00:40:54like this

00:40:55at this

00:40:56time the

00:40:56director

00:40:57of the

00:40:58Cologne

00:40:58Kunstvereine

00:40:59was interested

00:41:00in something

00:41:00else

00:41:01so therefore

00:41:01there was

00:41:02not really

00:41:03a lot

00:41:03of

00:41:03collaboration

00:41:04same

00:41:05with

00:41:06Düsseldorf

00:41:07and same

00:41:08with the

00:41:09Mönchengladbach

00:41:10Griefeld

00:41:11and the

00:41:11centers

00:41:12which show

00:41:13early on

00:41:13important

00:41:15young

00:41:16artists

00:41:16and so

00:41:17this was

00:41:18like it

00:41:19was

00:41:19and it

00:41:20was also

00:41:20sometimes

00:41:22a little

00:41:23bit

00:41:23frustrated

00:41:24because

00:41:25not

00:41:26the

00:41:27outside

00:41:27apart

00:41:29was far

00:41:30away

00:41:30in a way

00:41:30but it

00:41:31was also

00:41:32okay

00:41:32we could

00:41:32survive

00:41:33there

00:41:33was a

00:41:33show

00:41:34in

00:41:34Firmini

00:41:35in

00:41:35France

00:41:36with

00:41:36Yves

00:41:37Artip

00:41:37Pitalo

00:41:37there

00:41:38was

00:41:39Dierks

00:41:39Nowat

00:41:40in

00:41:40the

00:41:41Palais

00:41:42de

00:41:42Bousin

00:41:42which

00:41:43had

00:41:43a

00:41:43smaller

00:41:43exhibition

00:41:45space

00:41:46in

00:41:46these

00:41:46days

00:41:47where he

00:41:47showed

00:41:48and

00:41:49other

00:41:50and other

00:41:50positions

00:41:51so

00:41:52it

00:41:52was not

00:41:52the

00:41:53fact

00:41:53that

00:41:53there

00:41:53was

00:41:53no

00:41:54connections

00:41:55to

00:41:55institute

00:41:56or

00:41:56Kunstverein

00:41:57it was

00:41:57just

00:41:57the fact

00:41:58that

00:41:58in the

00:41:58near

00:41:58neighborhood

00:41:59people

00:41:59had a

00:41:59different

00:42:00idea

00:42:00right

00:42:01perhaps

00:42:02I mean

00:42:02Helmut

00:42:02Draxler

00:42:03was at

00:42:03the

00:42:04Kunstverein

00:42:04in Munich

00:42:05and he

00:42:06was

00:42:06maybe the

00:42:08curator

00:42:08who was

00:42:09most engaged

00:42:09I think

00:42:10with this

00:42:10particular

00:42:11group of

00:42:11artists

00:42:12and

00:42:13quite

00:42:13a

00:42:13number

00:42:14of

00:42:14us

00:42:14that

00:42:15worked

00:42:15with

00:42:16him

00:42:16in

00:42:16the

00:42:17Kunstverein

00:42:17and then

00:42:18you know

00:42:18in

00:42:18Lüneburg

00:42:19there

00:42:19was

00:42:20Ulf

00:42:21Hugenegg

00:42:22and

00:42:22Beatrice

00:42:22von

00:42:23Bismarck

00:42:23and

00:42:23the

00:42:24development

00:42:24of

00:42:24the

00:42:24Kunstverein

00:42:25there

00:42:25and

00:42:26then

00:42:26Graz

00:42:26was

00:42:27also

00:42:27an

00:42:27important

00:42:28in

00:42:28Vienna

00:42:29and

00:42:30Graz

00:42:30so

00:42:31they

00:42:31were

00:42:31sort

00:42:31of

00:42:32particular

00:42:32people

00:42:33in

00:42:33particular

00:42:33institutional

00:42:34contexts

00:42:35but

00:42:36not

00:42:37in

00:42:37Cologne

00:42:37for the

00:42:38most

00:42:38part

00:42:38yeah

00:42:39I think

00:42:43I would

00:42:44agree

00:42:45with you

00:42:45that

00:42:45the

00:42:47Cologne

00:42:48art scene

00:42:49since the

00:42:5060s

00:42:51I would

00:42:51argue

00:42:51the

00:42:51post-war

00:42:52Cologne

00:42:52art scene

00:42:53was an

00:42:53example

00:42:53of what

00:42:54Harrison

00:42:55and

00:42:55Cynthia

00:42:56White

00:42:56termed

00:42:57the

00:42:57dealer

00:42:57critic

00:42:57system

00:42:58a

00:42:59system

00:42:59where

00:42:59dealers

00:43:00in

00:43:00tandem

00:43:00with

00:43:01critics

00:43:01basically

00:43:02kind

00:43:04of

00:43:04profile

00:43:06art

00:43:07position

00:43:07art

00:43:08and

00:43:09propagate

00:43:09art

00:43:10and

00:43:10also

00:43:10market

00:43:11art

00:43:11and

00:43:12I

00:43:13think

00:43:13that

00:43:13one

00:43:14could

00:43:14maybe

00:43:15and I

00:43:15tried

00:43:15to do

00:43:16that

00:43:16in

00:43:16my

00:43:16book

00:43:16High

00:43:17Price

00:43:17consider

00:43:18the

00:43:1990s

00:43:20also

00:43:21as the

00:43:21beginning

00:43:22of a

00:43:22structural

00:43:22change

00:43:24of the

00:43:25art

00:43:25economy

00:43:25in this

00:43:26respect

00:43:26I think

00:43:27that

00:43:27in the

00:43:28course

00:43:28of the

00:43:2990s

00:43:30a

00:43:30system

00:43:30that

00:43:31had

00:43:31formerly

00:43:31been

00:43:32dominated

00:43:32by

00:43:32retail

00:43:33businesses

00:43:34Einzelhandel

00:43:35shifted

00:43:37to

00:43:38galleries

00:43:39opening

00:43:39branches

00:43:40operating

00:43:41more

00:43:41internationally

00:43:42later

00:43:43even

00:43:43globally

00:43:44and

00:43:45also

00:43:45the

00:43:46former

00:43:47dealer

00:43:47critic

00:43:48system

00:43:48I

00:43:48think

00:43:48got

00:43:49slowly

00:43:50substituted

00:43:51what I

00:43:52termed in

00:43:52my book

00:43:53High Price

00:43:53the

00:43:54dealer

00:43:55collector

00:43:55curator

00:43:56system

00:43:56I

00:43:57think

00:43:57that

00:43:58the

00:43:58power

00:43:59of

00:43:59the

00:43:59critics

00:43:59and

00:44:00theoreticians

00:44:00especially

00:44:02in the

00:44:02mercantile

00:44:03sphere

00:44:03diminished

00:44:06toward

00:44:06the

00:44:07end

00:44:07of the

00:44:0890s

00:44:08I

00:44:08think

00:44:08really

00:44:10even though

00:44:11we think

00:44:12of the

00:44:1290s

00:44:13as

00:44:13this

00:44:13decade

00:44:14where

00:44:14discourse

00:44:16was

00:44:16celebrated

00:44:17I

00:44:17think

00:44:17at the

00:44:18same

00:44:18time

00:44:19restructuring

00:44:20of the

00:44:20whole

00:44:20field

00:44:21was

00:44:22slowly

00:44:22going

00:44:23on

00:44:24and we

00:44:24are

00:44:24dealing

00:44:25with

00:44:25its

00:44:25repercussions

00:44:26today

00:44:27where

00:44:27criticism

00:44:28is

00:44:28indeed

00:44:29in

00:44:29many

00:44:30segments

00:44:31of

00:44:31the

00:44:31art

00:44:31world

00:44:32quite

00:44:32marginalized

00:44:33It

00:44:35helped

00:44:35a lot

00:44:36to

00:44:36think

00:44:38of

00:44:38the

00:44:38art

00:44:38world

00:44:39in

00:44:39the

00:44:3980s

00:44:40rather

00:44:41than

00:44:41the

00:44:4190s

00:44:42as

00:44:43a

00:44:45continuation

00:44:45of

00:44:46the

00:44:48way

00:44:48political

00:44:49groups

00:44:49had

00:44:49formed

00:44:50and

00:44:50organized

00:44:51in

00:44:51the

00:44:5170s

00:44:52but

00:44:53without

00:44:53the

00:44:53politics

00:44:54so

00:44:54it

00:44:55was

00:44:55like

00:44:56communist

00:44:58splinter

00:44:59groups

00:44:59and

00:45:01one

00:45:02was

00:45:03opting

00:45:03for

00:45:04one

00:45:04of

00:45:04them

00:45:04or

00:45:05one

00:45:05could

00:45:05even

00:45:06tolerate

00:45:06maybe

00:45:06another

00:45:07one

00:45:07and

00:45:08the

00:45:08rest

00:45:08were

00:45:08traitors

00:45:08or

00:45:09revisionists

00:45:09and

00:45:10so

00:45:11that

00:45:12was

00:45:12how

00:45:13I

00:45:13learned

00:45:13to

00:45:13look

00:45:14at

00:45:14galleries

00:45:15and

00:45:15it

00:45:15was

00:45:15very

00:45:16amusing

00:45:17and

00:45:18pleasing

00:45:18to

00:45:19look

00:45:19at

00:45:19it

00:45:19like

00:45:20this

00:45:20and

00:45:21later

00:45:21it

00:45:21turned

00:45:21out

00:45:21they

00:45:22all

00:45:22had

00:45:23also

00:45:23different

00:45:24artists

00:45:25and

00:45:25they

00:45:25were

00:45:26going

00:45:26for

00:45:26variety

00:45:27and

00:45:27diversity

00:45:27and

00:45:28so

00:45:28it

00:45:28was

00:45:28no

00:45:28longer

00:45:29you

00:45:31could

00:45:31no

00:45:31longer

00:45:31keep

00:45:32this

00:45:33idea

00:45:33that

00:45:33they

00:45:34were

00:45:34all

00:45:34like

00:45:34had

00:45:36a

00:45:37specific

00:45:37message

00:45:38or

00:45:38specific

00:45:38idea

00:45:38that

00:45:39they

00:45:39were

00:45:39following

00:45:39and

00:45:40would

00:45:40function

00:45:41like

00:45:41curators

00:45:42so

00:45:42that

00:45:42was

00:45:42I

00:45:43think

00:45:43how

00:45:44one

00:45:44looked

00:45:44at

00:45:44galleries

00:45:45in

00:45:45the

00:45:4580s

00:45:46that

00:45:46they

00:45:47were

00:45:47curated

00:45:48by

00:45:49someone

00:45:49and

00:45:50if

00:45:50a

00:45:51gallery

00:45:51had

00:45:51a

00:45:51new

00:45:52artist

00:45:52it

00:45:52was

00:45:52like

00:45:53are

00:45:53you

00:45:54sure

00:45:54that

00:45:54it

00:45:54works

00:45:55with

00:45:55this

00:45:56gallery

00:45:56this

00:45:57artist

00:45:57it

00:45:58was

00:45:58also

00:45:58like

00:45:58Bundesliga

00:45:59clubs

00:45:59I

00:46:00mean

00:46:00you

00:46:00couldn't

00:46:01this

00:46:02player

00:46:03could

00:46:03not

00:46:03play

00:46:03with

00:46:04Borussia

00:46:04Dortmund

00:46:04but

00:46:05he

00:46:05could

00:46:06play

00:46:06maybe

00:46:06with

00:46:06Hoffenheim

00:46:10so

00:46:10this

00:46:12was

00:46:12like

00:46:12the

00:46:12as

00:46:15long

00:46:15as

00:46:15you

00:46:15could

00:46:15look

00:46:15at

00:46:15it

00:46:16like

00:46:16this

00:46:16I

00:46:17think

00:46:18also

00:46:19the

00:46:19galleries

00:46:19profited

00:46:20from

00:46:21that

00:46:21even

00:46:21if

00:46:21they

00:46:22were

00:46:22not

00:46:22feeling

00:46:23like

00:46:23this

00:46:23they

00:46:24also

00:46:24liked

00:46:25this

00:46:25fantasy

00:46:27and

00:46:27that

00:46:27of

00:46:27course

00:46:28was

00:46:28gone

00:46:28in

00:46:28the

00:46:2990s

00:46:30pretty

00:46:30soon

00:46:31maybe

00:46:31not

00:46:31in

00:46:321990

00:46:32but

00:46:33by

00:46:331993

00:46:341994

00:46:34this

00:46:35was

00:46:35over

00:46:35so

00:46:40we

00:46:41have

00:46:41now

00:46:42the

00:46:4380s

00:46:44were

00:46:44important

00:46:44but

00:46:45not

00:46:45the

00:46:4590s

00:46:45we

00:46:47have

00:46:47heard

00:46:47in

00:46:48the

00:46:481990s

00:46:49beginning

00:46:49of

00:46:50the

00:46:50decline

00:46:51of

00:46:51Cologne

00:46:51we

00:46:52also

00:46:53have

00:46:53heard

00:46:53that

00:46:53the

00:46:5490s

00:46:54have

00:46:54been

00:46:54historized

00:46:55to

00:46:55death

00:46:55and

00:46:57that

00:46:57there

00:46:57happened

00:46:57a

00:46:58structural

00:46:58change

00:46:59so

00:46:59this

00:47:00is

00:47:01a

00:47:01surprise

00:47:02but

00:47:02picking

00:47:03up

00:47:03on

00:47:03this

00:47:04statement

00:47:04I

00:47:05realized

00:47:05that

00:47:05you

00:47:06Isabel

00:47:06in

00:47:07several

00:47:08interviews

00:47:10you

00:47:11mentioned

00:47:11a book

00:47:12that

00:47:12has

00:47:13not

00:47:13been

00:47:13written

00:47:13yet

00:47:14the

00:47:15dark

00:47:15years

00:47:15Cologne

00:47:16from

00:47:171987

00:47:17to

00:47:181999

00:47:1988

00:47:22to

00:47:2299

00:47:23thank

00:47:24you

00:47:25I

00:47:25also

00:47:26realized

00:47:26that

00:47:26there

00:47:26have

00:47:26been

00:47:27three

00:47:27issues

00:47:28on

00:47:28Berlin

00:47:28with

00:47:29Texas

00:47:29but

00:47:30not

00:47:30a

00:47:30single

00:47:30one

00:47:31on

00:47:31Cologne

00:47:31it's

00:47:32coming

00:47:32it's

00:47:32coming

00:47:33don't

00:47:33worry

00:47:34still

00:47:35what

00:47:36is this

00:47:37the

00:47:37dark

00:47:38years

00:47:38of

00:47:38Cologne

00:47:39well

00:47:39first

00:47:40of

00:47:40all

00:47:40I

00:47:40would

00:47:40pick

00:47:41up

00:47:41on

00:47:41what

00:47:42Dietrich

00:47:42said

00:47:43because

00:47:43I

00:47:43think

00:47:43it's

00:47:44also

00:47:44something

00:47:44I

00:47:44would

00:47:45actually

00:47:45love

00:47:45to

00:47:45discuss

00:47:46with

00:47:46Monica

00:47:46this

00:47:48this

00:47:48idea

00:47:49that

00:47:49in

00:47:50the

00:47:5180s

00:47:52early

00:47:5290s

00:47:53we

00:47:53were

00:47:53dealing

00:47:53with

00:47:54something

00:47:54that

00:47:55was

00:47:55called

00:47:56program

00:47:56gallery

00:47:57at the

00:47:57time

00:47:58a

00:47:58program

00:47:58gallery

00:47:59which

00:47:59has

00:47:59a

00:48:00cohesive

00:48:00aesthetic

00:48:02proposition

00:48:03and

00:48:04sticks

00:48:05with the

00:48:05artists

00:48:06it

00:48:06represents

00:48:07for

00:48:07a whole

00:48:08course

00:48:08of a

00:48:09career

00:48:09meaning

00:48:1030 to

00:48:1040

00:48:11years

00:48:11and I

00:48:12think

00:48:12that this

00:48:13model

00:48:13has

00:48:13very often

00:48:14been

00:48:14replaced

00:48:15nowadays

00:48:15for

00:48:16reasons

00:48:17of

00:48:17the

00:48:17economization

00:48:18of

00:48:19this

00:48:19field

00:48:20by

00:48:20a

00:48:21model

00:48:21where

00:48:21galleries

00:48:22either

00:48:23lose

00:48:23their

00:48:23artists

00:48:24to

00:48:24mega

00:48:25players

00:48:25you know

00:48:26like

00:48:26and

00:48:28where

00:48:29artists

00:48:29where

00:48:30galleries

00:48:30can't

00:48:30really

00:48:31afford

00:48:32to

00:48:33kind

00:48:33of

00:48:33stick

00:48:34to

00:48:34a

00:48:35position

00:48:35that

00:48:35is

00:48:35not

00:48:36market

00:48:36successful

00:48:37because

00:48:37they

00:48:38have

00:48:38large

00:48:39overheads

00:48:39so

00:48:40I

00:48:40think

00:48:40this

00:48:41is

00:48:41something

00:48:41that

00:48:42is

00:48:42interesting

00:48:42to

00:48:42think

00:48:42about

00:48:43if

00:48:43the

00:48:43program

00:48:44gallery

00:48:44is

00:48:45actually

00:48:45still

00:48:45possible

00:48:46nowadays

00:48:46and

00:48:47about

00:48:47the

00:48:48dark

00:48:48years

00:48:49in

00:48:49German

00:48:49it

00:48:50sounds

00:48:50better

00:48:50I

00:48:54think

00:48:54I

00:48:55came up

00:48:55with this

00:48:55title

00:48:56and the

00:48:56book

00:48:56hasn't

00:48:56been

00:48:56written

00:48:57yet

00:48:57I

00:48:57came up

00:48:58with

00:48:58this

00:48:58title

00:48:58because

00:48:59my

00:48:59memories

00:49:00of

00:49:00this

00:49:01time

00:49:01are

00:49:01always

00:49:01black

00:49:02and

00:49:02white

00:49:03and

00:49:04it's

00:49:06not

00:49:06color

00:49:06there's

00:49:07no

00:49:07color

00:49:07it's

00:49:07gray

00:49:08grayish

00:49:09and

00:49:09of

00:49:10course

00:49:10even

00:49:10though

00:49:11the

00:49:1190s

00:49:12were

00:49:12a

00:49:12time

00:49:13where

00:49:14you know

00:49:14the

00:49:15cultural

00:49:15left

00:49:16in

00:49:16Germany

00:49:16once

00:49:18again

00:49:18discovered

00:49:19not

00:49:19only

00:49:20feminist

00:49:20theory

00:49:21but also

00:49:21gender

00:49:22studies

00:49:22and this

00:49:23is something

00:49:23text

00:49:24I think

00:49:25contributed

00:49:26to

00:49:26we

00:49:26very

00:49:27early

00:49:27on

00:49:27you know

00:49:28had

00:49:28an interview

00:49:29with

00:49:29Judith

00:49:29Butler

00:49:30and

00:49:31were

00:49:31very

00:49:31engaged

00:49:32and

00:49:32did

00:49:33several

00:49:33issues

00:49:33on

00:49:34feminisms

00:49:34sexisms

00:49:35etc

00:49:36we are

00:49:36now

00:49:37again

00:49:38doing

00:49:38an issue

00:49:39on

00:49:39misogyny

00:49:40because

00:49:40this

00:49:41topic

00:49:41never

00:49:42stops

00:49:42being

00:49:43topical

00:49:43especially

00:49:44in

00:49:45today's

00:49:46time

00:49:46but

00:49:47at

00:49:47the

00:49:48same

00:49:48time

00:49:48there

00:49:49was

00:49:50a lot

00:49:50of

00:49:50structural

00:49:50sexism

00:49:51going

00:49:51on

00:49:51as

00:49:52well

00:49:52so

00:49:53you

00:49:54know

00:49:54which

00:49:55we

00:49:56talked

00:49:57about

00:49:57especially

00:49:58my

00:49:58female

00:49:59friends

00:49:59colleagues

00:50:00and mine

00:50:00we

00:50:01talked

00:50:01about

00:50:01it

00:50:02we

00:50:02tried

00:50:02to

00:50:02understand

00:50:03it

00:50:03theorize

00:50:03it

00:50:04so

00:50:04it

00:50:04was

00:50:05you know

00:50:05it

00:50:06was

00:50:06a

00:50:06time

00:50:06Jutta

00:50:07and I

00:50:08always

00:50:08say

00:50:08we are

00:50:10happy

00:50:11that we

00:50:11actually

00:50:11survived

00:50:12it

00:50:12and we

00:50:13are also

00:50:13happy

00:50:13it's

00:50:14over

00:50:14so

00:50:15there

00:50:16is

00:50:16no

00:50:16reason

00:50:17to

00:50:17be

00:50:18nostalgic

00:50:18even

00:50:19though

00:50:19there

00:50:20were

00:50:20a lot

00:50:20of

00:50:20things

00:50:20that

00:50:21were

00:50:21also

00:50:21great

00:50:21about

00:50:22this

00:50:22time

00:50:22but

00:50:22there

00:50:22were

00:50:23also

00:50:23aspects

00:50:24which

00:50:24I'm

00:50:25happy

00:50:25that

00:50:26I

00:50:26don't

00:50:26have

00:50:26to

00:50:26repeatedly

00:50:27go

00:50:28through

00:50:28certain

00:50:29experiences

00:50:29that

00:50:30I

00:50:30was

00:50:30exposed

00:50:31to

00:50:31during

00:50:32the

00:50:3290s

00:50:32as

00:50:33a

00:50:33person

00:50:33marked

00:50:34as

00:50:34a

00:50:34woman

00:50:35in

00:50:35this

00:50:36scene

00:50:36would

00:50:40you

00:50:40like

00:50:41to

00:50:41pick

00:50:41up

00:50:41on

00:50:41this

00:50:42notion

00:50:42of

00:50:42the

00:50:42program

00:50:43gallery

00:50:43yeah

00:50:44okay

00:50:44I

00:50:45mean

00:50:45when I

00:50:46hear

00:50:46this

00:50:47discussion

00:50:47I

00:50:47must

00:50:48say

00:50:48you

00:50:49know

00:50:49I

00:50:49understand

00:50:50and I

00:50:51think

00:50:51certain

00:50:52things

00:50:52how the

00:50:53art

00:50:53market

00:50:53developed

00:50:54are

00:50:54interesting

00:50:55I

00:50:55personally

00:50:56have

00:50:59still

00:50:59a

00:50:59very

00:51:00old

00:51:00fashioned

00:51:00idea

00:51:01of

00:51:02what

00:51:03I

00:51:03you

00:51:04know

00:51:04I'm

00:51:05still

00:51:05doing

00:51:06it

00:51:06having

00:51:06the

00:51:07gallery

00:51:07it's

00:51:08just

00:51:08about

00:51:08a

00:51:09certain

00:51:09vision

00:51:10of

00:51:10what

00:51:10is

00:51:11of

00:51:12any

00:51:12cultural

00:51:13necessity

00:51:14to

00:51:14discuss

00:51:15you

00:51:16know

00:51:16and

00:51:16that's

00:51:17why

00:51:17I

00:51:17fell

00:51:18into

00:51:18the

00:51:19situation

00:51:20that

00:51:20I

00:51:20had

00:51:21to

00:51:21discuss

00:51:22or

00:51:23the

00:51:25role

00:51:27of

00:51:28women

00:51:28in

00:51:29the

00:51:29art

00:51:29world

00:51:29that's

00:51:30why

00:51:30there

00:51:31was

00:51:31a

00:51:31reason

00:51:32I

00:51:32only

00:51:33wanted

00:51:33to

00:51:33have

00:51:33the

00:51:33gallery

00:51:34two

00:51:34years

00:51:34but

00:51:35one

00:51:35thing

00:51:35was

00:51:36in

00:51:37this

00:51:37in

00:51:38these

00:51:38days

00:51:39that

00:51:39there

00:51:39was

00:51:39a

00:51:39necessity

00:51:40to

00:51:41pick

00:51:42on

00:51:42all

00:51:43these

00:51:43interesting

00:51:43female

00:51:44artists

00:51:44in

00:51:45order

00:51:45to

00:51:45help

00:51:46them

00:51:46to

00:51:46become

00:51:47role models

00:51:48and

00:51:50and

00:51:50but

00:51:52you know

00:51:53till

00:51:53today

00:51:53I

00:51:54must

00:51:54say

00:51:54I

00:51:56understand

00:51:56the

00:51:57discussion

00:51:57but

00:51:57for

00:51:58myself

00:51:58the

00:52:00only

00:52:00thing

00:52:00which

00:52:00keeps

00:52:01me

00:52:01doing

00:52:01this

00:52:02is

00:52:02to

00:52:03think

00:52:03where's

00:52:05the

00:52:05necessity

00:52:06to

00:52:06support

00:52:07something

00:52:07in the

00:52:09artistic

00:52:10discourse

00:52:10which

00:52:11could be

00:52:12of any

00:52:12cultural

00:52:14necessity

00:52:15and this

00:52:17is very

00:52:17there was

00:52:18very

00:52:18for me

00:52:19very easy

00:52:20in the

00:52:2080s

00:52:21still okay

00:52:22in the

00:52:2290s

00:52:23to find

00:52:23artists

00:52:24who fulfilled

00:52:25this

00:52:25where I thought

00:52:26I put my

00:52:26energy

00:52:27into the

00:52:27gallery

00:52:28today

00:52:29it's

00:52:30very

00:52:30it's

00:52:31almost

00:52:31impossible

00:52:31you know

00:52:33I don't

00:52:34have the

00:52:34possibility

00:52:35I don't

00:52:36have the

00:52:36I cannot

00:52:38do this

00:52:39I need

00:52:39a long

00:52:40time

00:52:41to

00:52:42to

00:52:43to

00:52:44how do

00:52:45you say

00:52:45that

00:52:45to

00:52:46you know

00:52:47between

00:52:47the

00:52:48to define

00:52:50between

00:52:50the less

00:52:51important

00:52:52and the more

00:52:52important

00:52:53it's very

00:52:53difficult

00:52:54you know

00:52:54where are

00:52:55where are

00:52:55these discourses

00:52:56because

00:52:57it's so

00:52:58I mean

00:52:58and the art

00:52:59market

00:52:59is so

00:53:00degenerating

00:53:01so

00:53:02that's why

00:53:04a program

00:53:04gallery

00:53:05yes

00:53:05you can

00:53:06call it

00:53:06a program

00:53:06and you can

00:53:07say it's

00:53:08over

00:53:08but for

00:53:09example

00:53:10you know

00:53:10the interesting

00:53:11development

00:53:12lately

00:53:12is that

00:53:13many are

00:53:14quite a few

00:53:14artists

00:53:15you know

00:53:16they are

00:53:19very unhappy

00:53:20with the new

00:53:21role model

00:53:22these mega

00:53:23galleries

00:53:23even though

00:53:24they

00:53:24because they're

00:53:25older

00:53:26so they went

00:53:27there because

00:53:27they thought

00:53:27this is

00:53:28a safe

00:53:29money-wise

00:53:30a safe

00:53:30situation

00:53:31for us

00:53:31you know

00:53:32they're very

00:53:33unhappy

00:53:34at the end

00:53:34there

00:53:35and you

00:53:35would see

00:53:36in the future

00:53:37a few

00:53:38will leave

00:53:38certain galleries

00:53:40and

00:53:42you know

00:53:42even though

00:53:43it might be

00:53:44a financial

00:53:44risk for them

00:53:45because

00:53:46most artists

00:53:47also

00:53:47really have

00:53:48a vision

00:53:49they know

00:53:49you know

00:53:50and this

00:53:51cannot

00:53:52you know

00:53:52so I

00:53:54don't know

00:53:54I mean

00:53:54I cannot

00:53:56that's why

00:53:56I cannot

00:53:57really

00:53:58follow that

00:53:59discussion

00:54:00because I

00:54:00have this

00:54:00really

00:54:01old-fashioned

00:54:02idea of

00:54:02trying to

00:54:04find what

00:54:05is

00:54:05any

00:54:06you know

00:54:07not that

00:54:07our gallery

00:54:09is perfect

00:54:11there

00:54:11but at least

00:54:12we try

00:54:13you know

00:54:14to find

00:54:15to distinguish

00:54:16a bit

00:54:16from the

00:54:17more important

00:54:18and the less

00:54:19important

00:54:19and try to

00:54:20support this

00:54:21in a very

00:54:21simple way

00:54:22and this

00:54:22is called

00:54:23and try to

00:54:24you know

00:54:25when you start

00:54:26to discuss

00:54:27this

00:54:28you try to

00:54:28support the

00:54:29artist

00:54:29and that's why

00:54:30that's called

00:54:31old-fashioned

00:54:32it's a program

00:54:33gallery

00:54:33okay

00:54:34maybe

00:54:35you know

00:54:35but it's

00:54:37I mean

00:54:37what's the role

00:54:38of a gallery

00:54:38you know

00:54:39it's just

00:54:41to be

00:54:41this

00:54:42servant

00:54:44of the

00:54:44artist

00:54:44at the

00:54:45end

00:54:45and when

00:54:46you

00:54:46I mean

00:54:47in our

00:54:47case

00:54:48I mean

00:54:49you can

00:54:51also survive

00:54:52financially

00:54:53you know

00:54:53it's not

00:54:54easy

00:54:54you know

00:54:55I mean

00:54:55me with

00:54:56my specific

00:54:57history

00:54:58I always say

00:54:58I should be

00:54:58the richest

00:54:59of all

00:55:00you know

00:55:00and I'm

00:55:01probably

00:55:02one of the

00:55:02poorest

00:55:03I mean

00:55:03I'm not

00:55:03poor

00:55:04you know

00:55:04but

00:55:04it's just

00:55:07you know

00:55:08it's not

00:55:09about

00:55:09in our

00:55:11it's not

00:55:12about

00:55:12money

00:55:12but

00:55:14as you

00:55:15said

00:55:15it is

00:55:16about

00:55:16money

00:55:16today

00:55:17you know

00:55:18that's

00:55:18the reality

00:55:18but

00:55:19but as I

00:55:20said

00:55:21it might

00:55:21change a

00:55:22bit

00:55:22you know

00:55:23I don't

00:55:24know

00:55:24it's not

00:55:24I'm sorry

00:55:25it's not

00:55:26really my

00:55:26you know

00:55:28I

00:55:29it's not

00:55:31my

00:55:31discussion

00:55:33so much

00:55:34yeah

00:55:34well what I'm

00:55:35thinking about

00:55:35I mean

00:55:36there's

00:55:36this sort

00:55:37of

00:55:37narrative

00:55:37of

00:55:38you know

00:55:39that there

00:55:39was

00:55:40a sort

00:55:40of

00:55:41functional

00:55:41division

00:55:41of

00:55:42labor

00:55:42between

00:55:43and

00:55:44kind

00:55:44of

00:55:45collaborative

00:55:45set

00:55:46of

00:55:46relations

00:55:46between

00:55:47dealers

00:55:47artists

00:55:48and

00:55:48critics

00:55:49through

00:55:49the

00:55:49program

00:55:49gallery

00:55:50that also

00:55:50had a

00:55:51curatorial

00:55:51role

00:55:52and there's

00:55:52this model

00:55:52and that

00:55:53somehow

00:55:53now has

00:55:54transformed

00:55:56or degenerated

00:55:57which is

00:55:58one way of

00:55:59looking at it

00:55:59I think

00:56:00the model

00:56:00that I've

00:56:01been

00:56:01thinking

00:56:01within

00:56:02and I don't

00:56:03have that

00:56:03slide up

00:56:04but

00:56:04is the

00:56:05fragmentation

00:56:06of the art

00:56:07field

00:56:07into what

00:56:08I describe

00:56:09as increasingly

00:56:09autonomous

00:56:10subfields

00:56:12where

00:56:12you know

00:56:13that kind

00:56:15of

00:56:15collaborative

00:56:16when one

00:56:19kind of

00:56:19considers

00:56:20the field

00:56:20of

00:56:21galleries

00:56:23or the

00:56:23art market

00:56:24field

00:56:24the field

00:56:25of art

00:56:26discourse

00:56:26or discourse

00:56:27production

00:56:27or the

00:56:28knowledge

00:56:28production

00:56:29or the

00:56:29academic

00:56:29field

00:56:30and the

00:56:30exhibition

00:56:31field

00:56:31sort of

00:56:32in the

00:56:32same

00:56:33space

00:56:33and there's

00:56:34a relations

00:56:34of collaboration

00:56:35but also

00:56:36of contestation

00:56:37over what

00:56:38the sort

00:56:39of values

00:56:40you know

00:56:40as a

00:56:43whole are

00:56:44and I

00:56:44think one

00:56:45way of

00:56:45understanding

00:56:45the shift

00:56:46is that

00:56:46in fact

00:56:47these

00:56:47subfields

00:56:48now have

00:56:49sort of

00:56:49fragmented

00:56:51to a large

00:56:51extent

00:56:52and so

00:56:53the field

00:56:54of art

00:56:54discourse

00:56:55is increasingly

00:56:56academicized

00:56:57the field

00:56:59of the

00:57:00market field

00:57:01is increasingly

00:57:02sort of

00:57:03defined

00:57:03within a

00:57:04particular

00:57:04economy

00:57:05which is

00:57:06primarily

00:57:06painting

00:57:07which is

00:57:0780%

00:57:08of the

00:57:08market

00:57:08by value

00:57:09and then

00:57:10the exhibition

00:57:11field

00:57:11has taken

00:57:12its own

00:57:12course

00:57:13through

00:57:13the rise

00:57:15of the

00:57:15curatorial

00:57:16studies

00:57:16and museum

00:57:17studies

00:57:17and exhibition

00:57:18studies

00:57:18and international

00:57:19exhibitions

00:57:20and so

00:57:21within this

00:57:22sort of

00:57:22fragmentation

00:57:23you know

00:57:25it's hard

00:57:27for me

00:57:27now to

00:57:27kind of

00:57:28think

00:57:28about

00:57:29what

00:57:29the role

00:57:30that

00:57:31galleries

00:57:32have

00:57:33or art

00:57:33criticism

00:57:34has

00:57:34really

00:57:35kind

00:57:35of

00:57:35across

00:57:36you know

00:57:37with galleries

00:57:38whether art

00:57:38discourse

00:57:39can really

00:57:39have

00:57:40you know

00:57:40it's one

00:57:40way of

00:57:41understanding

00:57:41how

00:57:41the

00:57:42sort of

00:57:43decline

00:57:43of the

00:57:44influence

00:57:44of art

00:57:44discourse

00:57:45within

00:57:45the market

00:57:46field

00:57:46is that

00:57:47they're

00:57:47actually

00:57:47functioning

00:57:48now

00:57:48independently

00:57:49almost

00:57:49as sort

00:57:49of

00:57:49specific

00:57:50economies

00:57:51and so

00:57:52as an

00:57:53artist

00:57:53you know

00:57:54sort of

00:57:54my

00:57:54way

00:57:56of

00:57:56trying

00:57:56to

00:57:57function

00:57:57within

00:57:57the art

00:57:58world

00:57:58is about

00:57:58sort

00:57:59of

00:57:59thinking

00:57:59about

00:58:00those

00:58:00arenas

00:58:01very

00:58:01specifically

00:58:01and how

00:58:02I can

00:58:02function

00:58:03you know

00:58:04within

00:58:04them

00:58:04but within

00:58:05sort of

00:58:05very

00:58:05specific

00:58:06limits

00:58:06of what

00:58:07those

00:58:07different

00:58:08arenas

00:58:09are

00:58:09at this

00:58:09point

00:58:10so I

00:58:11don't know

00:58:11if that's

00:58:11you know

00:58:12if that's

00:58:12helpful

00:58:13but I

00:58:13think we've

00:58:13kind of

00:58:14gotten

00:58:14past

00:58:14the

00:58:15decline

00:58:16and we

00:58:16can keep

00:58:17thinking

00:58:17about

00:58:17the sort

00:58:18of the

00:58:18decline

00:58:18of the

00:58:19old

00:58:19model

00:58:19but

00:58:20what

00:58:21has

00:58:21taken

00:58:21its

00:58:22place

00:58:22now

00:58:22is

00:58:23something

00:58:23that

00:58:23I

00:58:24think

00:58:24has

00:58:24a

00:58:24very

00:58:24different

00:58:25structure

00:58:25I

00:58:26agree

00:58:26and I

00:58:27think

00:58:27we have

00:58:31in terms

00:58:31of

00:58:31different

00:58:32segments

00:58:32that

00:58:33yes

00:58:33each

00:58:34function

00:58:35according

00:58:35to their

00:58:35own

00:58:36laws

00:58:36and

00:58:36criteria

00:58:37but also

00:58:37overlap

00:58:38there are

00:58:39still

00:58:40overlaps

00:58:41you know

00:58:41like

00:58:41there's

00:58:42a certain

00:58:44sort of

00:58:44interdependency

00:58:45which I

00:58:46actually think

00:58:46of more

00:58:47as a

00:58:47sort of

00:58:47parasitism

00:58:49you know

00:58:50where the

00:58:51market

00:58:51still needs

00:58:52the

00:58:52legitimation

00:58:53and the

00:58:54kind of

00:58:54public

00:58:54profile

00:58:55and the

00:58:55framework

00:58:56of a

00:58:56public

00:58:56good

00:58:57created

00:58:57by the

00:58:58academic

00:58:58and

00:58:58exhibition

00:58:59fields

00:58:59the

00:59:00exhibition

00:59:01fields

00:59:01needs

00:59:01the

00:59:01money

00:59:02from

00:59:02the

00:59:02market

00:59:02otherwise

00:59:03you know

00:59:03it'd go

00:59:04bankrupt

00:59:04and the

00:59:05academic

00:59:06field

00:59:06wants

00:59:06this

00:59:07access

00:59:07to

00:59:07sort

00:59:08of

00:59:08broader

00:59:08cultural

00:59:09relevance

00:59:09as well

00:59:10as to

00:59:10resources

00:59:12that they

00:59:12get to

00:59:12the other

00:59:13field

00:59:13so there's

00:59:14this

00:59:14but it's

00:59:15a kind

00:59:15of

00:59:15parasitical

00:59:16I think

00:59:17relationship

00:59:17to a

00:59:18large extent

00:59:19now

00:59:19I mean

00:59:20because it's

00:59:21not one

00:59:21of contestation

00:59:22to a large

00:59:23extent

00:59:23I think

00:59:24at this

00:59:24point

00:59:24and that's

00:59:25one of the

00:59:26things

00:59:26that was

00:59:27for me

00:59:28quite

00:59:28lost

00:59:29yeah

00:59:31that's

00:59:31interesting

00:59:31one little

00:59:32point

00:59:33I don't

00:59:33want to

00:59:33talk that

00:59:33much

00:59:34but I'm

00:59:34just

00:59:34thinking

00:59:34about

00:59:35how

00:59:36if we

00:59:36go back

00:59:37to these

00:59:3790s

00:59:38how I

00:59:40remember

00:59:40also in

00:59:41relation to

00:59:42Texture

00:59:42Kunst

00:59:42that artists

00:59:44were very

00:59:45interested

00:59:46in a

00:59:48controversial

00:59:49discussion

00:59:49about their

00:59:50work

00:59:50they enjoyed

00:59:51it even

00:59:52if

00:59:53substantial

00:59:54kind of

00:59:56counter

00:59:57arguments

00:59:57against their

00:59:58practice

00:59:59were being

01:00:00formulated

01:00:00some even

01:00:02said that

01:00:03this is why

01:00:03they made

01:00:04work

01:00:04because they

01:00:05wanted a

01:00:05controversy

01:00:06to happen

01:00:06around it

01:00:07and this

01:00:08has changed

01:00:09a lot

01:00:09also for

01:00:10economical

01:00:11reasons

01:00:11also for

01:00:12many other

01:00:12reasons

01:00:13first of

01:00:13all

01:00:13many artists

01:00:15nowadays

01:00:16don't like

01:00:17it at

01:00:17all

01:00:17if one

01:00:18critical

01:00:19word is

01:00:20uttered

01:00:20about

01:00:20their

01:00:21work

01:00:21there's

01:00:22also

01:00:23critics

01:00:24who are

01:00:25rightly

01:00:25a bit

01:00:26fearful

01:00:26to write

01:00:27something

01:00:28critical

01:00:28because they

01:00:29fear the

01:00:29repercussions

01:00:30they might

01:00:31not be

01:00:32invited to

01:00:32the dinner

01:00:33anymore

01:00:33or not

01:00:34be invited

01:00:35to write

01:00:35a catalogue

01:00:36text

01:00:36so there

01:00:37is

01:00:37in place

01:00:39of this

01:00:39kind of

01:00:40interest

01:00:41in

01:00:42controversy

01:00:42there's

01:00:43now more

01:00:43a kind

01:00:44of longing

01:00:44for agreement

01:00:45and that

01:00:47has really

01:00:48changed

01:00:49the field

01:00:50for me

01:00:51also from

01:00:51the point

01:00:51of view

01:00:52of running

01:00:52a magazine

01:00:53because for

01:00:54me it only

01:00:55gets interesting

01:00:55once there

01:00:56is disagreement

01:00:57otherwise

01:00:59it gets

01:01:00a little bit

01:01:01boring

01:01:01I agree

01:01:05yeah maybe

01:01:08this would be

01:01:09a good

01:01:09moment

01:01:09to also

01:01:10open the

01:01:11conversation

01:01:11to the

01:01:12audience

01:01:12disagreements

01:01:14questions

01:01:14comments

01:01:15I think

01:01:16we have

01:01:16a

01:01:16microphone

01:01:17where is

01:01:19it

01:01:19ah

01:01:20you have

01:01:21to stand

01:01:22up and

01:01:22walk to

01:01:23the microphone

01:01:23would there

01:01:25be anyone

01:01:26who would

01:01:27want to

01:01:28contribute

01:01:28to this

01:01:29conversation

01:01:29at this

01:01:30moment

01:01:31yeah please

01:01:37hello thank

01:01:47you so much

01:01:48for the

01:01:49panel it

01:01:50was lovely

01:01:50I have a

01:01:52question for

01:01:52Andrea Frazier

01:01:53because we

01:01:54just saw you

01:01:54in the video

01:01:55acting as the

01:01:56gallerist in the

01:01:57booth and I

01:01:58think it would

01:01:59be maybe

01:01:59interesting to

01:02:00hear how you

01:02:00would do it

01:02:01today given

01:02:02all the

01:02:02economic stress

01:02:03and how

01:02:04would a

01:02:05performance

01:02:05possibly look

01:02:06like today

01:02:07or is that

01:02:08something that

01:02:08you would never

01:02:09want to do

01:02:10again could

01:02:10also be

01:02:11well thank

01:02:13you for the

01:02:13question I

01:02:14still actually

01:02:15perform may I

01:02:16help you

01:02:17and I

01:02:18performed it

01:02:19in you know

01:02:20Italy last

01:02:21year and it

01:02:22remains surprisingly

01:02:23relevant in a

01:02:25certain way

01:02:26but it's

01:02:27also nostalgic

01:02:28for me because

01:02:28may I help

01:02:29you was a

01:02:30performance very

01:02:30much it's

01:02:31about it's

01:02:31about taste

01:02:32it's about

01:02:33taste and

01:02:34class and

01:02:36and it's

01:02:38sort of

01:02:39premised on

01:02:40the idea that

01:02:41collecting is

01:02:41somehow about

01:02:42taste and is

01:02:43relevant and

01:02:44you know in

01:02:45an art gallery

01:02:45in an art

01:02:46fair and

01:02:47now I'm not

01:02:47sure that's

01:02:48so much the

01:02:49case anymore

01:02:50I mean one

01:02:50we didn't

01:02:51speak for

01:02:51example about

01:02:52the role of

01:02:52art advisors

01:02:53now and the

01:02:55degree to which

01:02:55collectors are

01:02:56collecting according

01:02:57to their taste

01:02:59is in my

01:03:00mind somewhat

01:03:00questionable as

01:03:02market factors

01:03:04as factors that

01:03:06have to do with

01:03:07sort of being

01:03:08positioning and

01:03:09positioning oneself

01:03:10and one's

01:03:11collection within a

01:03:12kind of field of

01:03:12collectors so that

01:03:15would be a shift

01:03:16of sort of

01:03:17considering how

01:03:18to address

01:03:20that so it

01:03:24is something that

01:03:24I think about

01:03:25but I'm not

01:03:26sure what

01:03:27gallery would

01:03:28let me do

01:03:30that Christian

01:03:31would you let

01:03:31me do a

01:03:32performance in

01:03:33your booth

01:03:33again at an

01:03:34art fair

01:03:34you will

01:03:35always have

01:03:36a

01:03:36carte blanche

01:03:36so

01:03:37okay

01:03:37so maybe

01:03:40maybe Basel

01:03:41but there are

01:03:43still some

01:03:44galleries

01:03:44yes

01:03:45give artists

01:03:47these possibilities

01:03:48yes but if

01:03:49I'm yelling at

01:03:50people you know

01:03:50in the middle of

01:03:51Art Basel

01:03:51you think

01:03:52but of course

01:03:53I mean yeah

01:03:55it's different

01:03:55because we have

01:03:56the other side

01:03:57also

01:03:58it's not that

01:04:01desperate

01:04:01I mean

01:04:02well that's great

01:04:03that's great to

01:04:04hear

01:04:04you know I'm an

01:04:06avid reader of

01:04:07the Art Basel

01:04:09UBS art market

01:04:10report

01:04:10and I'm sort of

01:04:13very interested in

01:04:14on the one hand

01:04:15the sort of

01:04:16interviews with

01:04:17with art dealers

01:04:20and other players

01:04:21in the art world

01:04:22that are sometimes

01:04:23quoted in that

01:04:25publication and

01:04:25elsewhere

01:04:26which include

01:04:27you know a lot

01:04:27of well certain

01:04:28complaints about

01:04:29collectors for

01:04:30example that one

01:04:31never hears

01:04:32outside of you

01:04:33know that

01:04:34context

01:04:34and so to think

01:04:36about like how

01:04:37can one bring

01:04:38a sort of a

01:04:39critical dialogue

01:04:40back into the

01:04:41sphere of

01:04:43art galleries

01:04:44of the art market

01:04:46and maybe a

01:04:46performance like

01:04:47that would be

01:04:48sort of one way

01:04:48of pushing on

01:04:50that

01:04:50pushing against

01:04:51the you know

01:04:54the sort of

01:04:55reduction of

01:04:56art discourse

01:04:57to a discourse

01:04:58of affirmation

01:04:59which I think

01:05:00is one of the

01:05:01things that

01:05:01Isabel was

01:05:02you know

01:05:02was talking about

01:05:03which definitely

01:05:05I think

01:05:05oh I'm sorry

01:05:07I just wanted

01:05:09to add something

01:05:11to what Isabel

01:05:12said about

01:05:13you know

01:05:14critics maybe

01:05:15today being

01:05:16more afraid

01:05:16of losing

01:05:17you know

01:05:18their privileges

01:05:20of belonging

01:05:21to a system

01:05:21rather than

01:05:22keeping the

01:05:23discourse alive

01:05:24by having

01:05:25controversy

01:05:27viewpoints

01:05:28with artists

01:05:29and dealers

01:05:29the discussion

01:05:31the discussion

01:05:32is called

01:05:32cologne in the

01:05:3390s and

01:05:34now

01:05:34and the

01:05:3690s

01:05:37you know

01:05:37where a

01:05:38time where

01:05:39the blocks

01:05:40just had

01:05:40collapsed

01:05:41and everybody

01:05:42was thinking

01:05:43that democracy

01:05:44and open

01:05:46discourse is like

01:05:47the role model

01:05:47that will spread

01:05:48maybe globally

01:05:50today we're living

01:05:53in a very

01:05:54different reality

01:05:55and I think

01:05:56this has arrived

01:05:57in art world

01:05:57when I hear

01:05:59especially

01:06:00colleagues in

01:06:01the United

01:06:02States

01:06:02they are afraid

01:06:03to show

01:06:04certain positions

01:06:05right now

01:06:06political positions

01:06:08in their galleries

01:06:09so I think

01:06:15it's

01:06:15we haven't even

01:06:17realized

01:06:18that now

01:06:18from the 90s

01:06:20till now

01:06:20what this really

01:06:21means on the

01:06:22brink of fascism

01:06:23globally

01:06:25and I think

01:06:26we're gonna face

01:06:27a very

01:06:28different

01:06:29next

01:06:30five

01:06:31to ten years

01:06:32thank you

01:06:35thank you

01:06:36Saskia

01:06:37I also think

01:06:38you know

01:06:38I totally agree

01:06:39and I think

01:06:40another blind spot

01:06:41of our discussion

01:06:43was that

01:06:44when looking back

01:06:45at the 90s

01:06:4680s

01:06:47I mean we were

01:06:47dealing still

01:06:48with an analog world

01:06:50people were actually

01:06:51meeting

01:06:52in concrete

01:06:53places

01:06:55here in Cologne

01:06:55and having

01:06:57face to face

01:06:58interactions

01:06:59whereas now

01:07:00we are dealing

01:07:00with an art world

01:07:01which has partly

01:07:03at least been

01:07:03taken over

01:07:05by the tech industry

01:07:06and where many

01:07:07of its interactions

01:07:08take place

01:07:09on Instagram

01:07:09which is of course

01:07:11also when it comes

01:07:12to critical

01:07:13controversy

01:07:14a very

01:07:15different

01:07:16place

01:07:17where

01:07:18you know

01:07:19quantitative

01:07:20judgments

01:07:22reign

01:07:22meaning the number

01:07:23of followers

01:07:24or likes

01:07:25determines

01:07:25what is considered

01:07:28relevant

01:07:28so we are really

01:07:29I agree with you

01:07:30we haven't even

01:07:30started

01:07:31to kind of

01:07:33grasp

01:07:33these

01:07:34changes

01:07:35we are really

01:07:36living in a very

01:07:37different world

01:07:38in many

01:07:38many respects

01:07:39now exactly

01:07:41I think

01:07:41I mean

01:07:42this is really

01:07:42interesting

01:07:43of course

01:07:44it's more

01:07:44of course

01:07:44in the US

01:07:45taking place

01:07:47or the

01:07:47reality

01:07:48and the fear

01:07:49is there

01:07:50politically

01:07:51and

01:07:52yeah

01:07:53this is

01:07:54something

01:07:54which is

01:07:55I mean

01:07:56it doesn't

01:07:57really

01:07:57you know

01:07:58we have

01:07:58all the galleries

01:07:58in the US

01:07:59but it doesn't

01:07:59really affect

01:08:00so far

01:08:01the galleries

01:08:02there

01:08:02but

01:08:02it's a

01:08:03climate

01:08:04it's a

01:08:05which is

01:08:06really

01:08:07very unpleasant

01:08:10and

01:08:11but this

01:08:11is another

01:08:13discussion

01:08:13I mean

01:08:13this discussion

01:08:14is

01:08:15the 90s

01:08:17and now

01:08:18I mean

01:08:18the now

01:08:19is

01:08:20should be

01:08:23you know

01:08:23we should start

01:08:24with the now

01:08:25then

01:08:25you know

01:08:25and

01:08:26which is not

01:08:28really related

01:08:29I mean

01:08:29as she says

01:08:30you know

01:08:30analog

01:08:31and digital

01:08:32you know

01:08:32that is

01:08:34something which

01:08:35is very interesting

01:08:37you know

01:08:37I mean

01:08:37I'm still

01:08:39thinking in the old way

01:08:40but

01:08:41the reality

01:08:42is

01:08:43that we have to

01:08:44focus on this

01:08:46especially

01:08:46you know

01:08:47and

01:08:47if you see

01:08:48the change

01:08:48in the institutions

01:08:49what they show

01:08:51and that is

01:08:52something

01:08:52very

01:08:53it's a very

01:08:54serious

01:08:54I think

01:08:55aspect

01:08:57to think about

01:08:58but

01:08:58I mean

01:09:00that would

01:09:00take

01:09:01more time

01:09:02yeah

01:09:04I mean

01:09:04as an

01:09:05American

01:09:05and yes

01:09:06I really

01:09:07hope

01:09:07everybody

01:09:08all the

01:09:08galleries

01:09:09pull out

01:09:09of Art

01:09:10Basel

01:09:10Miami

01:09:11and

01:09:12you know

01:09:13run

01:09:14run

01:09:14the fair

01:09:14out of

01:09:15that

01:09:15out of

01:09:15that

01:09:16fascist

01:09:17state

01:09:17but I also

01:09:18want to note

01:09:19that I've

01:09:20talked to a lot

01:09:20of people

01:09:21who've left

01:09:21Germany

01:09:22in the past

01:09:22few years

01:09:23because

01:09:24they have

01:09:25been unable

01:09:25to

01:09:26criticize

01:09:27Israel

01:09:28and because

01:09:28they have

01:09:29been targeted

01:09:29for criticizing

01:09:30Israel

01:09:30so

01:09:31it's also

01:09:31an issue

01:09:32here

01:09:32exactly

01:09:33it's true

01:09:34but still

01:09:35it's a bit

01:09:35I mean

01:09:35it's a different

01:09:36it's a different

01:09:37political context

01:09:38no it's true

01:09:38I mean

01:09:39there is an impact

01:09:40on Lardis

01:09:40that has been

01:09:41very very

01:09:42very strong

01:09:43here as well

01:09:44so

01:09:45of censorship

01:09:46I would

01:09:54I would

01:09:54gerne

01:09:54nochmal

01:09:55an

01:09:55the

01:09:55question

01:09:55from Saskia

01:09:56anschließen

01:09:57and

01:09:57ob

01:09:57man

01:09:57die

01:09:58nicht

01:09:58auch

01:09:58ein

01:09:58bisschen

01:09:58anders

01:09:59stellen

01:09:59kann

01:09:59weil

01:10:00so

01:10:00pleasant

01:10:01war

01:10:01die

01:10:01situation

01:10:01in

01:10:02den

01:10:0290ern

01:10:02ja

01:10:02auch

01:10:03nicht

01:10:03es

01:10:04war

01:10:04ein

01:10:04sehr

01:10:05offenes

01:10:05Feld

01:10:16was

01:10:16so

01:10:17pleasant

01:10:18in

01:10:19the

01:10:19early

01:10:1990s

01:10:20I mean

01:10:21it was

01:10:21a very

01:10:21open

01:10:22situation

01:10:22after

01:10:23the

01:10:23collapse

01:10:23of

01:10:24the

01:10:24UDSSR

01:10:26and

01:10:27also

01:10:28the

01:10:28situation

01:10:29in

01:10:29Germany

01:10:29was

01:10:30very

01:10:31unclear

01:10:31after

01:10:32in

01:10:33the

01:10:33moment

01:10:33of

01:10:33the

01:10:34reunification

01:10:34I mean

01:10:35there

01:10:35had

01:10:35been

01:10:36a lot

01:10:36of

01:10:37violence

01:10:37right-wing

01:10:38violence

01:10:39it

01:10:39was

01:10:40the

01:10:40beginning

01:10:40of

01:10:40the

01:10:41war

01:10:42in

01:10:43the

01:10:43civil

01:10:43war

01:10:44in

01:10:44Jugoslavia

01:10:45the

01:10:47internet

01:10:47was

01:10:47appearing

01:10:48it

01:10:49was

01:10:49the

01:10:49same

01:10:49situation

01:10:50like

01:10:50now

01:10:50many

01:10:51people

01:10:51have

01:10:51been

01:10:52afraid

01:10:52like

01:10:53people

01:10:53are

01:10:53now

01:10:53afraid

01:10:54of

01:10:54artificial

01:10:55intelligence

01:10:57so

01:10:58isn't

01:10:58there

01:10:59also

01:10:59comparison

01:11:00that

01:11:00there's

01:11:01an

01:11:01open

01:11:01situation

01:11:03now

01:11:04with

01:11:04a lot

01:11:05of

01:11:05unsecurity

01:11:05or

01:11:06wasn't

01:11:06it

01:11:06also

01:11:07a

01:11:07quite

01:11:07unsecure

01:11:08situation

01:11:09in

01:11:101990

01:11:11well

01:11:16I do

01:11:16think

01:11:16that

01:11:16the

01:11:16internet

01:11:17now

01:11:17has

01:11:18just

01:11:18created

01:11:18when

01:11:21the

01:11:22first

01:11:22gulf

01:11:22war

01:11:23started

01:11:23everything

01:11:24was

01:11:24over

01:11:24we

01:11:27just

01:11:27opened

01:11:27the

01:11:27gallery

01:11:28a

01:11:28year

01:11:28ago

01:11:28we

01:11:30were

01:11:30sitting

01:11:30in

01:11:30the

01:11:30grüne

01:11:31egg

01:11:31at

01:11:325 o'clock

01:11:33in the

01:11:33morning

01:11:33the

01:11:34war

01:11:34should

01:11:35start

01:11:35in

01:11:35Kuwait

01:11:36and

01:11:37we

01:11:37were

01:11:37still

01:11:37drinking

01:11:38and

01:11:38watching

01:11:39what

01:11:39happened

01:11:39and

01:11:39the

01:11:39war

01:11:40started

01:11:40and

01:11:41from

01:11:41that

01:11:41point

01:11:42of

01:11:42nobody

01:11:43traveled

01:11:44anymore

01:11:44the

01:11:46collectors

01:11:46I

01:11:46mean

01:11:46they

01:11:47did

01:11:47not

01:11:47this

01:11:49was

01:11:49not

01:11:49happening

01:11:49in

01:11:50the

01:11:50last

01:11:51events

01:11:51in

01:11:52this

01:11:52last

01:11:52war

01:11:52event

01:11:53but

01:11:53then

01:11:54everything

01:11:54was

01:11:54over

01:11:55and

01:11:56my

01:11:56colleague

01:11:57and

01:11:57close

01:11:58friend

01:11:58Colin

01:11:58said

01:11:59stay

01:12:01alive

01:12:01till

01:12:0195

01:12:02and

01:12:03it

01:12:04was

01:12:04even

01:12:0498

01:12:05when

01:12:06there

01:12:06was

01:12:06a

01:12:07renaissance

01:12:07of

01:12:07the

01:12:08painting

01:12:08stuff

01:12:08again

01:12:09that

01:12:10the

01:12:11market

01:12:11started

01:12:11again

01:12:12so

01:12:12the

01:12:1390s

01:12:13were

01:12:14really

01:12:15difficult

01:12:16and the

01:12:17biggest

01:12:17recession

01:12:18was in

01:12:18the

01:12:18early

01:12:1990s

01:12:19not

01:12:20in

01:12:20the

01:12:20later

01:12:21recession

01:12:22days

01:12:23yeah

01:12:26I'm

01:12:27also

01:12:27thinking

01:12:27of

01:12:29the

01:12:29racist

01:12:30programs

01:12:31programs

01:12:32which

01:12:33happened

01:12:33in

01:12:33Rostock

01:12:34in

01:12:34Mölln

01:12:34in

01:12:35the

01:12:35beginning

01:12:35of

01:12:35the

01:12:3690s

01:12:36and

01:12:36which

01:12:37was

01:12:37one

01:12:37of

01:12:37the

01:12:37reasons

01:12:37as to

01:12:38why

01:12:38we

01:12:40founded

01:12:40the

01:12:41so-called

01:12:41Wohlfahrts

01:12:42Ausschuss

01:12:42at the

01:12:43time

01:12:43which

01:12:44one day

01:12:45maybe

01:12:45also

01:12:46would have

01:12:47to

01:12:47historicize

01:12:48critically

01:12:49which

01:12:50was a

01:12:50kind of

01:12:51formation

01:12:52of

01:12:52people

01:12:54from the

01:12:54cultural

01:12:55left

01:12:55both

01:12:56from

01:12:56the

01:12:56music

01:12:57world

01:12:58mostly

01:12:59from

01:12:59Hamburg

01:12:59but

01:12:59also

01:13:00from

01:13:00the

01:13:01art

01:13:01world

01:13:02and

01:13:02we

01:13:02had

01:13:03a

01:13:03trip

01:13:03Dietrich

01:13:04and I

01:13:05actually

01:13:05shared

01:13:08not a

01:13:09hotel room

01:13:09but we

01:13:10were in

01:13:10the same

01:13:10hotel

01:13:11I remember

01:13:12that

01:13:12but

01:13:13anyway

01:13:13we

01:13:13were in

01:13:14a bus

01:13:14and

01:13:14going

01:13:15to

01:13:15East

01:13:15Germany

01:13:16and

01:13:16the

01:13:17idea

01:13:17was

01:13:18which

01:13:18is

01:13:19sounding

01:13:20rather

01:13:20colonial

01:13:21from

01:13:22today's

01:13:23point of

01:13:24view

01:13:24the

01:13:24idea

01:13:24was

01:13:25to

01:13:25kind

01:13:25of

01:13:25have

01:13:26these

01:13:26anti-racist

01:13:28anti-sexist

01:13:29discussions

01:13:30with like-minded

01:13:31people

01:13:32from the

01:13:32East

01:13:33and to

01:13:33support

01:13:34the

01:13:34anti-racist

01:13:35initiatives

01:13:36in the

01:13:36East

01:13:36but we

01:13:37came

01:13:37like

01:13:37these

01:13:38kind

01:13:38of

01:13:38hipsters

01:13:39from

01:13:39Cologne

01:13:39in Hamburg

01:13:40in a

01:13:41way

01:13:41to

01:13:41tell

01:13:42them

01:13:42about

01:13:43what

01:13:43we

01:13:44thought

01:13:44was

01:13:44going

01:13:44on

01:13:45so

01:13:45in a

01:13:45way

01:13:45also

01:13:46slightly

01:13:46problematic

01:13:46and it

01:13:47also

01:13:47failed

01:13:48in many

01:13:48ways

01:13:48but it

01:13:49was

01:13:49also

01:13:49important

01:13:50that

01:13:50we

01:13:51did

01:13:51something

01:13:51so

01:13:53yeah

01:13:53and is

01:13:59there

01:13:59something

01:13:59to be

01:13:59learned

01:14:00from

01:14:00this

01:14:00for

01:14:01the

01:14:01now

01:14:01I think

01:14:02one

01:14:03thing

01:14:03is

01:14:05to mention

01:14:07something

01:14:07about

01:14:08Cologne

01:14:08to

01:14:09to

01:14:10to

01:14:10relocalize

01:14:11the

01:14:11discussion

01:14:11from

01:14:12the

01:14:12global

01:14:12fascist

01:14:15threat

01:14:16and

01:14:17I think

01:14:19it's a

01:14:19big

01:14:19difference

01:14:20of course

01:14:21that there

01:14:22is a

01:14:22fascist

01:14:22threat

01:14:23right now

01:14:23almost

01:14:24already

01:14:26realized

01:14:26in several

01:14:27parts

01:14:27of the

01:14:27world

01:14:27but

01:14:29but

01:14:29the

01:14:30other

01:14:30string

01:14:31or the

01:14:31other

01:14:31threat

01:14:32that has

01:14:32been

01:14:32mentioned

01:14:33the

01:14:33tendency

01:14:34of

01:14:35fragmentation

01:14:35which I

01:14:36think

01:14:36is

01:14:36as well

01:14:37as

01:14:37what

01:14:38Isabel

01:14:38was saying

01:14:39about

01:14:39the rejection

01:14:40of certain

01:14:41forms of

01:14:41criticism

01:14:42a phenomenon

01:14:43that's not

01:14:43exclusive to the

01:14:44art world

01:14:44it's like

01:14:45in all cultural

01:14:46fields

01:14:46the same

01:14:46thing

01:14:47and

01:14:48the

01:14:48fragmentation

01:14:49that happens

01:14:50right now

01:14:51in the

01:14:52book world

01:14:52the book market

01:14:54where the

01:14:55Frankfurt Book Fair

01:14:56now has only

01:14:57one place

01:14:58one hall

01:15:00or whatever

01:15:00the things

01:15:01are called

01:15:01left for

01:15:02like

01:15:02what used to be

01:15:04their main business

01:15:05the rest is

01:15:05adult

01:15:06fantasy

01:15:07so

01:15:09but

01:15:11Cologne

01:15:12has a natural

01:15:13tendency

01:15:16to

01:15:17resist

01:15:18fragmentation

01:15:19because of

01:15:22its village

01:15:23like

01:15:24psychogeography

01:15:27because

01:15:28people might

01:15:32look at

01:15:33Instagram as

01:15:34much as

01:15:34they want

01:15:34but they

01:15:35have seen

01:15:35each other

01:15:36four times

01:15:36a day

01:15:36already

01:15:37on the

01:15:37street

01:15:37so

01:15:39this is

01:15:39a different

01:15:40thing

01:15:40from all

01:15:41the other

01:15:41places

01:15:41where one

01:15:42can live

01:15:42where you

01:15:43see someone

01:15:44every

01:15:45six months

01:15:46and only

01:15:48see your

01:15:48neighbours

01:15:48but everyone

01:15:49is your

01:15:49neighbour

01:15:50and that

01:15:51was also

01:15:53an important

01:15:54factor

01:15:55of the

01:15:56attractive

01:15:56sides

01:15:58of Cologne

01:15:58in the

01:15:5980s and

01:15:5990s

01:16:00but it's

01:16:01still there

01:16:01it's just

01:16:02that there

01:16:02is no

01:16:03game

01:16:03that everyone

01:16:04plays

01:16:04together

01:16:05but it's

01:16:06possible

01:16:07and it

01:16:08could be

01:16:08a game

01:16:09I mean

01:16:09certain games

01:16:09are played

01:16:10together

01:16:10but it

01:16:12could be

01:16:12something

01:16:12that could

01:16:14support

01:16:14any kind

01:16:15of coherent

01:16:16cultural

01:16:17activity

01:16:17or political

01:16:18cultural

01:16:18activity

01:16:19better than

01:16:20other cities

01:16:21could do

01:16:21that

01:16:21and what

01:16:23was also

01:16:23so interesting

01:16:24about the

01:16:25social life

01:16:25that we

01:16:26were leading

01:16:26in Cologne

01:16:27is that it

01:16:28took place

01:16:28outside of

01:16:30the apartments

01:16:30there were

01:16:31all these

01:16:32spaces

01:16:33like bars

01:16:34restaurants

01:16:35and even

01:16:36the street

01:16:37and the

01:16:38bookshop

01:16:38where you

01:16:39would

01:16:40spend

01:16:41your life

01:16:41outside

01:16:42that's

01:16:43very true

01:16:43that's so

01:16:44important

01:16:45and this

01:16:46is why

01:16:46you would

01:16:46have

01:16:47all these

01:16:48encounters

01:16:48and interactions

01:16:49and I

01:16:50always loved

01:16:51thinking about

01:16:52Kippenberger's

01:16:52painting in

01:16:55this regard

01:16:55don't send

01:16:56me home

01:16:57because I

01:16:57thought there

01:16:58was also

01:16:59a side

01:16:59one resonance

01:17:01this painting

01:17:01has for me

01:17:02is this

01:17:02don't send

01:17:03me home

01:17:03because I

01:17:04want to

01:17:04stay in

01:17:06this kind

01:17:06of outside

01:17:08world

01:17:09where social

01:17:09interactions

01:17:10happen

01:17:10we never

01:17:11met in

01:17:11our

01:17:11apartments

01:17:12ever

01:17:12we didn't

01:17:13even know

01:17:13each other's

01:17:14apartments

01:17:14this is

01:17:16this is

01:17:16like

01:17:16it's very

01:17:17interesting

01:17:18this is

01:17:18in Klaus

01:17:19Tewerleitz

01:17:20look back

01:17:21upon the

01:17:22early days

01:17:22of politicization

01:17:23in the 60s

01:17:24in Germany

01:17:24he says

01:17:25has this term

01:17:26aushäusigkeit

01:17:27to be out

01:17:29of the house

01:17:30this is

01:17:31yeah

01:17:31this was

01:17:31really a

01:17:33noun

01:17:34the other

01:17:35thing is

01:17:35that I

01:17:36just read

01:17:37this

01:17:37Erika

01:17:38Tomala

01:17:38book on

01:17:38the history

01:17:39of like

01:17:41literary

01:17:42journalism

01:17:43or ambitious

01:17:45journalism

01:17:45in Germany

01:17:46where someone

01:17:47is talking

01:17:48about Cologne

01:17:49in the

01:17:49around 1990

01:17:51saying

01:17:51we never

01:17:52never ever

01:17:53has ever

01:17:54anyone

01:17:54invited anyone

01:17:55for dinner

01:17:55that was

01:17:56absolutely

01:17:57no one

01:17:58would ever

01:17:58do that

01:17:59and nobody

01:17:59could cook

01:18:00no performance

01:18:07no performance

01:18:08kitchens

01:18:09okay but

01:18:11maybe this

01:18:11optimism is

01:18:12now a good

01:18:13moment

01:18:13to end

01:18:15this panel

01:18:16thank you so

01:18:17much

01:18:17for

01:18:18not really

01:18:20agreeing

01:18:21on what

01:18:22could

01:18:22learn in the

01:18:2290s

01:18:23or if it

01:18:23was even

01:18:24important

01:18:24but for

01:18:26these

01:18:26amazing

01:18:28closing

01:18:28words

01:18:29thank you

01:18:29very much

01:18:30thank you

01:18:31thank you

01:18:32thank you

01:18:33thank you

01:18:34thank you

01:18:36thank you

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