- 2 weeks ago
Gary Payton, like several of his contemporaries, was an unabashed jerk. He took pride in that. He was nasty to opponents and maniacally hypercompetitive with teammates. All the famous anecdotes about MJ -- the trash talk, the bullying, the ludicrous bets -- they all have counterparts in the lore of Payton.
But on the court, things just broke differently for Gary. Obviously, Gary and the Sonics were not as great as MJ and the Bulls, but they weren't that far off.
In that way, Gary's time in Seattle and his eventual departure serve as kind of an alternate version of the MJ story. What if you're an extremely good player who's a dick to everyone on your very good team ... but that team DOESN'T win titles? What if you stick around after they stop even contending for titles? What if, uh, the Starbucks guy buys your team and thinks you're the team's foremost problem? And then what if that guy turns out to be a pretty big jerk himself?
This is Gary Payton's beef with the Sonics.
But on the court, things just broke differently for Gary. Obviously, Gary and the Sonics were not as great as MJ and the Bulls, but they weren't that far off.
In that way, Gary's time in Seattle and his eventual departure serve as kind of an alternate version of the MJ story. What if you're an extremely good player who's a dick to everyone on your very good team ... but that team DOESN'T win titles? What if you stick around after they stop even contending for titles? What if, uh, the Starbucks guy buys your team and thinks you're the team's foremost problem? And then what if that guy turns out to be a pretty big jerk himself?
This is Gary Payton's beef with the Sonics.
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SportsTranscript
00:00You can get away with being a pretty nasty coworker
00:04if you're good enough at sports.
00:06Bicker with coaches, pick on teammates,
00:08people will tolerate it.
00:09Hell, they might even celebrate it
00:11as long as you never stop winning.
00:14Yes, I'm describing Michael Jordan,
00:16but right up until that last part,
00:18I'm also describing Gary Payton.
00:21Like Jordan, Payton ranks among the greatest players
00:23in NBA history.
00:25Like Jordan, he started fights
00:28and made enemies with his team.
00:30Payton's Seattle Supersonics came as close as anyone
00:33to disrupting Jordan's Chicago dynasty, but they didn't.
00:39Those Sonics won a lot, but they didn't win at all.
00:42And while Gary was still in uniform, they stopped winning.
00:46What once got dismissed as Gary being Gary
00:49started to register as something else.
00:53It turned into beef.
00:58From day one in the NBA, Gary Payton was an asshole.
01:03That's his word, not mine.
01:05Payton attributes his fearless, pugnacious personality
01:08to his father, Al, whom neighbors in Oakland
01:11called Mr. Mean and who raised Gary to be Mr. Mean Jr.
01:15Gary was a rookie on the 1991 Seattle Sonics,
01:18but refused to act like one.
01:21He ran his mouth at Coach Casey Jones.
01:23He ran his mouth in the media.
01:27And he ran his mouth at teammates,
01:28even after they tried to check him.
01:31Even after Xavier McDaniel put him in a sleeper hold.
01:34But that boisterous personality worked for Gary.
01:37Payton had been a loudmouth since long before the NBA
01:40and always backed it up with superior play.
01:43So he wasn't going to stop in Seattle.
01:46And again, it basically worked.
01:49Payton was a Sonic starter from day one.
01:51And within a few years, he blossomed into a star.
01:54Seattle point guard Nate McMillan
01:56willingly diminished his own role
01:57to let Payton run the show.
02:00By mid-decade, Payton was a perennial all-star,
02:03building the resume of elite ball handling and defense
02:06that would one day make him a Hall of Famer.
02:09And the Sonics ascended along with him.
02:12This was an era of monumental success,
02:16flecked with beef.
02:18Payton and his co-star, Sean Kemp,
02:20butted heads with new coach George Carl.
02:23Carl was every bit as bellicose as his point guard,
02:26which generated intermittent blow-ups,
02:29but also fed a sort of mutual understanding.
02:32As for teammates, well, Gary was Gary,
02:35pestering older players and bullying younger players.
02:39But the Sonics won.
02:41Teammates called him names,
02:42but also a motivator and a competitor.
02:45They said Gary made the Sonics great
02:48and maybe also prevented the Sonics from being great.
02:51The most notorious example came in 1994,
02:54in the middle of Seattle's historic first-round upset loss to the Nuggets.
02:59Payton and teammate Ricky Pierce had a confrontation
03:02that some say included serious threats of violence.
03:05But Seattle rallied in the years to come
03:08and made it all the way to the NBA Finals in 1996.
03:12While Payton got grief for his shortcomings,
03:15the average fan adored him.
03:17The beef was a B story.
03:19Gradually, that team wore down.
03:22The Sonics traded Sean Kemp in 1997.
03:25Coach Carl left for Milwaukee in 98.
03:28The golden era ended without a title.
03:30But Gary remained.
03:34He turned down bigger offers to sign with Seattle well into his 30s,
03:38the last sports superstar standing in the city.
03:43Approaching the millennium,
03:45the Sonics would rebuild around Gary Payton.
03:49New coach Paul Westfall presented
03:51as a more easygoing leader than George Carl.
03:54He arrived in 1998 pre-approved by Payton.
03:57By all accounts, Payton exploited that
04:00to commandeer Seattle's offense
04:02in a way that irritated teammates.
04:04And that's just the basketball.
04:06Rashard Lewis and Jelani McCoy
04:08were rookies on the 99 Sonics.
04:10Lewis told the Knuckleheads podcast
04:12that they got the Gary Payton experience
04:14immediately upon arrival.
04:16And by the time we walked in,
04:17Gary Payton dribbling the ball up the court.
04:19As soon as we walked in,
04:20he stopped in the middle of the game.
04:22And he looked at us,
04:23you mother...
04:25and just start going.
04:26Veteran big man Vin Baker
04:28was Payton's new co-star and closest friend.
04:31Payton called him an out-of-shape crybaby.
04:34Don McLean was a role player on that team,
04:37and observers accused Payton of stonewalling him,
04:39and it sounds like McLean agreed.
04:41At season's end,
04:42the Sonics were 500 and out of the playoffs.
04:45A huge drop from their 61-win finish in 1998.
04:50The Sonics considered trading Payton.
04:52They had a deal on the table.
04:55Instead, Seattle kind of doubled down
04:58on the Gary experience.
04:59Payton even seemed to issue
05:01a roster-building blueprint.
05:03While several incumbent Sonics fled town,
05:06Seattle GM Wally Walker
05:08interpreted Payton's request thusly.
05:11In came Vernon Maxwell,
05:13a veteran with experience winning rings
05:15and experience causing trouble.
05:17Payton wanted him.
05:18And in came Reuben Patterson,
05:21the self-proclaimed Kobe stopper,
05:23who said he would be the next Gary Payton.
05:26Gary was happy to have him,
05:28but eager to shut him up.
05:30If Payton was calling the shots,
05:32well, Gary felt he had done a good job.
05:34Seattle's revamped roster had a lot of attitude
05:37and a lot of defense like him.
05:39He guaranteed no one would get out of line.
05:41And that, I will grant,
05:44seemed to be the vibe early in the 99-2000 season.
05:47During halftime of an exhibition game,
05:50Coach Westfall upbraided Payton
05:51in front of the whole team,
05:53and Gary responded by taking the critiques in stride.
05:56Payton battled Reuben Patterson in private
05:59and roasted him in the papers,
06:00but it was seen as mentorship,
06:02Payton style.
06:03A December 99 Sports Illustrated article
06:08included numerous co-workers
06:10gushing about Payton's maturity.
06:13Nate McMillan, now a Sonics assistant coach,
06:16said Gary was leading by example.
06:19Coach Westfall said Payton had learned
06:21to harness his edginess.
06:24And this was coming from someone
06:25Payton had recently screamed at.
06:28That incident happened during a game
06:30against the Lakers in December.
06:31Down 16 in the fourth quarter,
06:34Westfall waved the white flag
06:35and rested his starters.
06:37Payton went off.
06:39After a private post-game meeting,
06:41Westfall said Payton's demeanor
06:43didn't remind him of Henry Kissinger,
06:45but he also wouldn't trade Payton
06:46for Henry Kissinger.
06:48Coming from Paul Westfall,
06:49that is apparently a compliment.
06:52In any event, the Sonics were winning
06:53at a clip comparable to the George Carl years.
06:56They were distancing themselves
06:58from the dread of 99.
06:59So, Payton's behavior,
07:03private and public tirades,
07:05maybe putting a welt under Vin Baker's eye,
07:09that could all file under the heading
07:11of Gary being Gary.
07:13But then things took a turn.
07:15The Sonics slipped in the standings.
07:18Grouchy vibes began to fester until boom.
07:22Sunday, March 26, 2000.
07:27Payton and Vernon Maxwell got into it during practice,
07:30and their argument turned into a locker room fight
07:32so intense that both picked up makeshift weapons,
07:36and multiple teammates got hurt
07:37trying to separate them.
07:39Supposedly, Payton and Maxwell made up
07:41before their next game,
07:42which, I don't know.
07:44Locker room scuffles happen,
07:45but I think people swinging chairs and dumbbells
07:48constitute more than just things getting a little heated.
07:51And for what it's worth,
07:52the beef did not end there.
07:55Payton's modern-day explanation for the fight
07:57is actually that he and Maxwell were too close.
08:00We were really tight.
08:01We did the same thing.
08:02We hung out the same way.
08:04You know what I'm saying?
08:04We did the same thing.
08:05We partied the same way.
08:06We did the same thing.
08:09And we clash.
08:10When you have two guys like the same and they clash,
08:13somebody's going to have to give.
08:15Maxwell, meanwhile, has heard Payton's version of the story
08:18and, on Gilbert Arenas' show,
08:20sounded more than ready to keep the fight going.
08:23Well, I swear to God,
08:24I'll beat your motherf***er,
08:26your fat ass,
08:26your dick-gut motherf***er.
08:28You better stop talking so much, dude.
08:30If I see you, dude, it'll be all good.
08:32According to Maxwell,
08:33the confrontation began
08:35because Payton picked on Shemond Williams,
08:37a young point guard Seattle had brought in
08:39to maybe replace Gary someday.
08:42That was perhaps not an isolated incident.
08:44Jeff Perlman's book about the Lakers dynasty
08:46includes an anecdote about Payton fuming
08:48because Williams made a clutch shot,
08:51you know, like, instead of celebrating.
08:53And in Seattle's 2000 playoff series against Utah,
08:56everyone could feel tension between Payton
08:59and his young understudy.
09:01Payton berated Williams on the court,
09:04then whined about not getting the ball.
09:07Noteworthy here is that Coach Westfall
09:09seems to have addressed these issues
09:11by benching Shemond Williams.
09:14So, yes, the Sonics made it back to the postseason,
09:17and Gary performed quite well in said postseason,
09:20but they lost in the first round,
09:22and they did so grumpily.
09:24Payton had to wear all of the above again.
09:27And again, the word was,
09:29time to just trade this guy and move on.
09:32More than ever,
09:33Gary's teammates sounded fine with that.
09:35Instead, Seattle kept Gary
09:38and irritated him by almost trading
09:40his favorite teammate, Vin Baker.
09:42Coach Westfall had pushed for a Baker trade,
09:45which made things rather awkward.
09:47Mere days into the 2000-2001 season,
09:50Westfall sensed he'd lost his locker room.
09:53He offered to resign on the spot,
09:55to which Payton and company replied,
09:56no, don't, that would make us look bad.
09:58Once again, everyone just waited
10:00for the tension to snap,
10:02and that happened on November 21st in Dallas.
10:06During a timeout,
10:07Westfall said something Payton didn't like,
10:09to which Payton said,
10:11a lot.
10:12I assume that's,
10:13I'll slap your ass,
10:15and not,
10:15I'll slap your ass.
10:17But anyway,
10:18here's perhaps the most telling part of it.
10:20After the blowup,
10:22Westfall suspended Payton
10:23for the following game.
10:25Then Payton kinda apologized,
10:27so Westfall rescinded the suspension.
10:31A few days later,
10:32Paul Westfall got fired.
10:34His replacement was fascinating.
10:36Nate McMillan,
10:37Mr. Sonic,
10:39Payton's old veteran teammate
10:40who had once handed over his point guard spot
10:42and earned Payton's respect,
10:44now an assistant,
10:45sliding into his first ever head coaching job.
10:48If anyone could salvage this arrangement,
10:50it had to be him.
10:51The question was,
10:53what would happen when Payton
10:54caused another hullabaloo?
10:57And the answer arrived promptly.
11:00January 17th, 2001 against the Suns.
11:03Payton got annoyed at Reuben Patterson
11:05and went after him intensely enough
11:07that Jason Kidd,
11:08an opponent,
11:09felt compelled to break it up.
11:11And that lingered.
11:13Here you can see Payton dialing up the vitriol
11:15so much that the Sonics had to call timeout.
11:18It kept going on the bench
11:20and then in the locker room.
11:22Coach McMillan had to act.
11:23He suspended Payton,
11:25breaking a long streak of games played,
11:27even after Payton apologized.
11:30Thereafter,
11:31word from the inside
11:32was that things had turned.
11:33Under the McMillan administration,
11:35Payton had found a way
11:36to be a competitor
11:37and a teammate.
11:39But things were also changing
11:41outside the locker room.
11:42That same January of 2001,
11:45Howard Schultz,
11:46the Starbucks billionaire and Sonics fan,
11:49bought the franchise.
11:50Payton thought that was cool,
11:52kind of like a Mark Cuban deal,
11:53an involved owner.
11:55But Schultz didn't sound too keen
11:57on Payton's beef history.
11:58And after that Reuben Patterson blowup,
12:01which happened days into Schultz's tenure as owner,
12:03GM Wally Walker didn't sound firmly against a Payton trade.
12:09Indeed,
12:10the Sonics tried to trade their superstar again that summer.
12:13They got so close
12:14that Payton felt compelled to issue a statement
12:17thanking Sonics fans.
12:18But no trade went through,
12:20which made 0-1-0-2 extra awkward.
12:23There's some bitter irony to it.
12:26That whole year,
12:27reports echoed the sentiment
12:28that Payton had turned a corner.
12:31McMillan's Sonics got back into the playoffs.
12:34And yet,
12:35while that flavor of beef dispersed,
12:38Payton and Howard Schultz
12:39were developing a new one.
12:41Yes,
12:41that's Kenny G.
12:43Payton obviously did not like
12:45his new boss calling him a constituency
12:47and then trying to trade him
12:49in that 0-1 offseason.
12:51Schultz,
12:51meanwhile,
12:52had gained extra insight
12:53from inside the organization
12:55and didn't like it.
12:57Schultz came to believe
12:58that Vin Baker's
12:59well-documented issues with alcohol
13:01were enabled by Payton.
13:03He visited one of Payton's
13:04summertime charity events
13:06and objected to Gary's behavior there.
13:08Payton's contract
13:09was one season from expiring
13:11and observers started to believe
13:13that no matter what teammates
13:14or fans thought,
13:16Schultz would not give him a new deal.
13:18This was not Payton's impression.
13:20The star and team owner
13:22met at a Seattle Storm game
13:23during the summer of 0-2
13:25and Payton came away
13:26believing he had been promised
13:27a contract extension.
13:30But then he didn't get one.
13:32Entering training camp,
13:33Payton still felt like a lame duck
13:35and tested his employers
13:36with a brief no-show.
13:38The Sonics did not budge.
13:40Schultz said,
13:40hey,
13:41we still want Payton
13:41to retire as Sonic.
13:43Gary said,
13:44whatever.
13:45In early 2003,
13:47the Sonics
13:47finally traded Gary Payton.
13:50Poetically,
13:50it was for Ray Allen
13:51who once fought Gary.
13:53After a decade of picking fights,
13:56Payton had beefed
13:57with the wrong guy
13:58and at the wrong time.
14:01Payton didn't return to Seattle
14:03until the following season
14:04after he had joined
14:05the L.A. Lakers.
14:07Gary took that opportunity
14:08to reconnect
14:09with Coach McMillan
14:10and he got a very warm welcome
14:13from the Sonics crowd.
14:14Payton!
14:16Payton said he held
14:17no grudge for fans
14:18or players
14:19or coaches.
14:20Schultz,
14:21very much so.
14:23He had said Schultz
14:24knew nothing about basketball
14:25and decades later,
14:27Schultz sounds like
14:28he kind of agrees.
14:29If you had to do
14:30that period
14:31over again,
14:33what if anything?
14:34I wouldn't have
14:34bought the team.
14:35You wouldn't have?
14:35No.
14:36Gary is less subtle
14:37in his assessment.
14:38Howard is a con, man.
14:42So,
14:42Gary Payton
14:43wouldn't be Gary Payton
14:44if he didn't speak his mind
14:45but it went too far
14:46at times.
14:48Payton outlasted
14:49most of his beefs
14:50in Seattle
14:50but ironically,
14:52just when he seemed
14:53to find the right balance,
14:54it was too late
14:55and new ownership
14:56had already moved on
14:57from him.
14:58And perhaps
14:59that final beef
15:00with Howard Schultz
15:01helped overshadow
15:02the others
15:02because Schultz
15:03would play the villain
15:04in the long run.
15:06With notable exceptions,
15:07most former teammates
15:08still respect Gary.
15:10Most Seattle fans
15:11still adore Gary.
15:13You can get away
15:14with a lot of beef
15:14if you win
15:15and Gary Payton
15:16did that.
15:16He just stuck around
15:18long enough
15:19to find out
15:19what happens
15:20when you stop.
15:26Thanks for watching
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