00:00Welcome to the Europe Conversation, I'm Stefan Grobe.
00:11In the European Commission, she's in charge of promoting equality and inclusion and upholding minorities' rights, women's rights, LGBTQ rights, and she's working on a new anti-racism strategy.
00:24She's also responsible for crisis management and civil preparedness and strengthening international cooperation and humanitarian diplomacy.
00:33Now, if that is not a crucial portfolio, I don't know what is.
00:38So, I'm excited to be joined by EU Commissioner Hadja Labib.
00:42Welcome to the program, it's a pleasure to have you here.
00:44Thank you for having me, Stefan.
00:46So, let me start by asking you about the situation in the Middle East.
00:51You have expressed hope that work on a two-state solution can begin soon and it shouldn't be a mere slogan.
01:00Now, today, are you more hopeful or less hopeful about this?
01:04It's clear that the ceasefire has opened a window of hope.
01:10We all saw the hostages back in Israel embracing their beloved one.
01:17But we also saw, as well, millions of Palestinians going back and in a sea of rubble, without home, without nothing, by the way.
01:32And so, the urgency is now to alleviate the suffering, to recover and to provide humanitarian aid.
01:41And that's exactly what we are doing.
01:44This is the second phase of the humanitarian agreement.
01:49The Israeli authorities agreed to let 600 trucks per day to enter into Gaza, but we are not there yet.
01:59And so, we asked the Israeli authorities to keep their promises.
02:06The winter is coming. The situation is dramatic with population, which is starving, children and women to the breach of the famine.
02:18There is a famine and we want to avoid this famine to spread.
02:22What can you do as European Union, as European Commission, as EU to accelerate that process?
02:30To put the pressure. And you know that we proposed, as a commission, to lift partially the association agreement.
02:39This is a tool that we have. It's a leverage.
02:43And that's why we decided, the previous Foreign Affairs Council, to let this tool on the table to say,
02:51look, the Israelis are, the government is our first partner. We are their first trade partners.
03:01And we are the first global humanitarian donor of the Palestinian authorities.
03:08So, with this balanced approach, we need also to be sure that all rules or principles are respected.
03:17And you certainly heard about the Article 2 of the Association Agreement, who asked our partner to respect human rights.
03:26Now, you have been very critical towards Israel already when you were Belgian Foreign Minister.
03:32I'm not critical. I'm balanced and just.
03:36Okay. But you advocated a stronger European stance.
03:40On the other side, Benjamin Netanyahu has said, on this program, that Europe has become irrelevant
03:47and that some European countries' positions amount to supporting Hamas.
03:53How do we go from here? How can we improve relations with Israel?
03:57You know, I don't like to speak about improving our relation with Israel.
04:04It's about improving the humanitarian law, the international humanitarian law,
04:11and to remind that there are rules to be respected, conventions, Geneva Convention,
04:18that ask that every state that is occupying a territory to be sure that the population received basic help, aid.
04:33And we are there to provide this aid.
04:36We have tons, tons of goods waiting at the border, at the Rafa crossing.
04:42And I repeat that part of the agreement is also the delivery of humanitarian aid.
04:50We want to see waves of trucks entering into Gaza.
04:54So, we are in a sea of destruction.
04:59Ninety percent of the buildings are completely destroyed.
05:04It gives you a glimpse of what is at stake.
05:08Let me go back to Netanyahu's remark that Europe is irrelevant.
05:13Did he have a point here?
05:15Where do you see Europe's footprint in the diplomacy, the ongoing diplomacy?
05:21We have been involved in the region as an honest broker for decades.
05:26For Israel, we are the first economic partners.
05:30For Palestinians, we are the first global donor, humanitarian donor.
05:35But also, we are supporting the improvement, the reform of the governance of the Palestinian authorities.
05:42And it is in the interest of the Palestinians, but also in the interest of the Israelis,
05:48to have a strong, robust governance, a Palestinian authority who is recognized, who is democratic.
05:56And we are helping them to reform.
05:59And we are ready to play our role, be it by UBAM, the EU border mission of assistance,
06:10by also training with the policemen, with UCOPs.
06:14We have a lot of programs, but we need good faith from both sides.
06:21And we are talking with all parties.
06:24And another thing is that, you know, within our European Union, we have a diversity of opinions,
06:30of histories as well.
06:31That is a very friendly description of the situation.
06:34Yes.
06:35But also it shows that, you know, from us emerge a compromise, which is also the right balance
06:45between those who feel close to the Israeli governments and the others.
06:50On this point, and you were just saying that Europe speaks to everybody.
06:54I think eventually it boils down to the question, will Hamas disarm and move the ceasefire agreement forward?
07:05Do you see this happening?
07:07I mean, the whole thing looks pretty fragile right now, but will they do that?
07:14And if they don't want to do that, can Europe put the pressure on Hamas?
07:19Hamas is not an interlocutor for us.
07:22It's a terrorist group.
07:25The plan is clear.
07:27We need to see Hamas disarmed and not being part of the two-state solution.
07:35We don't want the extremists on board from both sides, I have to say.
07:40And it was also clear when we organized, I was then Minister of Foreign Affairs, the day
07:45after conference with the Arab countries, with the Saudi Arabia, and it was also on the table when France,
07:54with the EU, organized the conference that leads to the recognition of the Palestinian states
08:01from many member states within the EU.
08:04And for us it's clear, Hamas is not part of the future.
08:08And how do you bring them to put the arms down?
08:11Because this is the…
08:13with our commitment, with our help, with our diplomatic pressure, and also our dialogue,
08:21our constant dialogue with the Arab countries.
08:26Yeah.
08:27One more question concerning the reconstruction of Gaza.
08:30You've said how the situation is, and this is typically a situation where Europe is very strong,
08:39helping with money, with expertise, humanitarian aid, etc.
08:45Now, some observers suggest that Europe may lose this spot because the Gulf states are more and more active,
08:55diplomatically, financially, economically.
08:58Do you see this potentially happening, that Europe is further pushed to the sidelines here, to the benefit of the Gulf states?
09:08I don't think so.
09:09I'm rather convinced, to the contrary.
09:12We are sitting at the table.
09:14We have our place as an honest broker, speaking with all parties, with the Gulf countries, but also with the Americans, with the Israelis.
09:23And we have this expertise.
09:26And we have this expertise.
09:27We are supporting.
09:28We are the first humanitarian donor, but also in cooperation, in development, we are really involved.
09:33And we are supporting also the Palestinian Authority to reform, to become democratic countries, to organize in a near future, we hope also universal elections and so on,
09:50and to regain also the trust of their own citizens.
09:55Let me pivot now to the war in Ukraine, if I may.
10:00I said at the beginning you are also in charge of civil preparedness.
10:05In a different sense, is the European public prepared to support Ukraine as long as it takes?
10:14This is our motto.
10:16You know, when I was Minister of Foreign Affairs, I remember we were always repeating that we will support Ukraine.
10:24as long as it takes.
10:26And we are doing so, and we will continue to do so.
10:30I have traveled a lot, many times, in Ukraine.
10:34And for instance, they are also leading by example when it comes to preparedness.
10:41And, you know, through our ecosystem, DGEco, which is under my limits, this is the largest operation ever,
10:51lead by our services, transporting more than 150,000 items, mainly generators, to help Ukraine, a country which is targeted in its civilian infrastructures,
11:09in blatant violation of international humanitarian law again.
11:14Can you talk to very concrete aspects of EU humanitarian aid?
11:19And is the situation possible, conceivable, that Europe would take in more refugees if the situation on the ground requires it?
11:30We already welcomed millions of refugees with a specific status, allowing them to work and to be really fully integrated in our societies.
11:44And it is a success.
11:46Now, when it comes to our concrete support, you know, when I was traveling there the last winter, I remember visiting schools, building in a shelter.
11:59You know, it's the only way to ensure education for Ukrainian children, but also protection of the elderly and the people with disabilities.
12:11As you mentioned, I'm also responsible for equality and to ensure that we are not leaving no one behind, and especially the most fragile in Ukraine.
12:22The last EU summit just signed off on the 19 sanctions package against Russia and continue to stand with Ukraine.
12:31At the same time, the question of frozen assets, the loan for Ukraine has been kicked down the road into the next month.
12:42What message does this send to Ukraine and to Ukrainians?
12:48And Belgium played an active role here in this, blocking the loan for now.
12:53We are not blocking the loans.
12:55And for two years now, we are also giving to Ukrainians the profits, the interest of these loans that are blocked, that are frozen.
13:11But these loans, you know, need to be, it's the first in our history.
13:16We don't have an example to follow.
13:20And it needs to be secured in a legal point of view.
13:24That's the only thing, that's the only point.
13:26And the message that we are conveying to the Ukrainians is that we are by your side, always.
13:37We will help you to defend your borders, because your borders is our borders.
13:43And we don't want to see further the Russians grabbing territories, Ukrainian territories.
13:50We are well aware and we are constantly repeating that their security is our security.
13:56So we are with them.
13:58We are going to also reinforce our own security.
14:02But we just need time.
14:06I think it's a question of time.
14:09On that point, we've seen Russian hybrid attacks on Europe as well.
14:15Cyber attacks, drone incursions and other operations.
14:19Does Europe take this hybrid war seriously enough?
14:23Very seriously.
14:24And that's why a couple of months ago I presented the preparedness strategy,
14:29which is based on all hazards, all kinds of threats.
14:34Because today's threats are not yesterday's threats.
14:37Yesterday it was mainly wildfires, floods, natural disasters.
14:43But today we see drones violating our airspace.
14:48It happened even here in Belgium, in other, in Denmark, in Poland, in Estonia.
14:56And we saw the hybrid threats, misinformation, disinformation campaign during the Moldovan elections,
15:05with 14 million attempts to disturb a cyber attack to influence the result of the election.
15:17Fortunately, it was unsuccessful.
15:20But it means that we are facing a multiplication of threats.
15:25So, in short, is Europe ready for war?
15:30We are preparing. We are prepared every day for everything.
15:35Okay.
15:36And let me go back to the Belgian position on the frozen assets.
15:41I want to explain. I know that you are skeptical.
15:44I saw your face.
15:45I just want to explain to you.
15:47War is not, you know, a char or a soldier knocking at your door saying,
15:51oh, look, I'm going to invade you.
15:54No, it is not a reality.
15:56Today's reality is a virus, a chemical attack, a nuclear incident that is maybe provoked by power outages.
16:07You know, all these things are very subtile.
16:10So, we need to have a good understanding of today's threats.
16:14Now, on Belgium and the frozen assets.
16:17I want to come back to this.
16:19What message does the Belgian position send to the Ukrainians right now?
16:24The fact is that Euroclear is based in Belgium.
16:28It's an international platform.
16:31And the message is clear.
16:34We are with the Ukrainians.
16:37And we will support them in their efforts of war.
16:41But we need time.
16:43We need to secure the legal aspect to be sure that Belgium is not going to be brought in front of a court of justice later on.
16:55That's it.
16:56So, the Belgian prime minister has repeatedly said he fears a retribution from Russia.
17:02legal problems.
17:05How serious is that?
17:07Especially in a context of war.
17:10And are the others immune to that argument?
17:14Why is there still no agreement on this?
17:17Why is it so difficult to sort of spread the risk?
17:21Because it is a first in our history that we are going to take the assets that are blocked following an invasion, a war, an unfair one.
17:37And so, we don't have examples to follow.
17:42And it needs to be secured legally.
17:46That's it.
17:47I'm going to ask you one last question.
17:49I want to bring up a very particular threat to our societies.
17:54And I know that you are very concerned about that.
17:57And that is regression, intolerance and the demonization of dissenters.
18:04Racism, anti-Semitism and sexism are on the rise.
18:09You are in charge of equality and inclusion.
18:12How do you promote this these days?
18:15With good sense.
18:18You know, I like figures.
18:21And obviously, equality is also in the interest of our economies, of our competitiveness.
18:30We need to have all the skills, the potential skills on board.
18:36If we decide that half of the humanity, women for instance, cannot have a complete and full career to deploy all their talents.
18:51That they are reframed with kids, with, you know, culture impediment.
19:01And also that we don't accept the LGBTIQ plus people and so on.
19:07This is an attempt also to our competitiveness.
19:10This is refraining ourselves.
19:12And, you know, violence has a cost.
19:17It costs 290 billion a year for the entire European Union.
19:24We all pay the price of this violence.
19:27Exclusion has also a price.
19:29This is 390 billion a year.
19:32So, if we want to spare money in this period of financial crisis,
19:39we need also to fight against exclusion, discrimination and to have all the skills on board.
19:48All right. EU Commissioner Hadj Al-Abib.
19:50Fascinating conversation.
19:51Thank you so much for coming on the show.
19:53Thank you.
19:54Thank you.
19:55Thank you.
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