- 3 months ago
On this first episode of MO'JO we dive deep into the waters of online fandoms with the help of our guest, Jack from the channel 404 Tales. He shares with us his take on the status of online fandoms today, they're variations, styles, the pros and cons of so fandom exposure and it's incredible impact on the entertainment industry.
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00:00I think that's one of the things I've learned from looking at all these different fandoms online
00:03is like the only people who really lose here are the people who dedicate most of their effort to
00:08hating something without creating anything. You're totally valid for feeling that way,
00:13but do something with it, man. Like make your own fanzine, make fan art,
00:17talk about, like make a new version of stuff.
00:19Hi, welcome to Mojo. My name is Ivan Zapata and I'll be your host for this week.
00:24This past year, the voices of audiences were louder than ever when it came to the things
00:28they liked and disliked, lifting some properties up and bringing a lot of them down. Now more than
00:35ever, the fandom space has become not only stronger, but louder and more and more relevant to the movie
00:41industry in particular, but to entertainment as a whole. So to help us dive headfirst into this
00:47universe, we needed someone who lives in a different dimension altogether. So my guest this week is Jack
00:53from the channel 404 Tales. He's a creator, an animator, but most importantly, a curator of pop
01:00culture and all things fandoms on the internet. So again, welcome to Mojo. And here's my conversation
01:06with 404 Tales.
01:13Hey, Jack, how you doing, man?
01:14Hello. Hello, everybody out there on the internet. It is excellent to be here. I've been a fan of for
01:21of WatchMojo for quite a while. I've watched quite a few lists on that, your guys page. It's kind of
01:28crazy to be here, honestly.
01:29And also, I'm a huge fan of 404.
01:33The first, I remember the first video I ran into on my For You page on TikTok was the John Cena video.
01:42Oh, it's just in the internet.
01:46Wrestling isn't so much like an actual competitive sport as it is a competitive fictional improv,
01:52where people actually put their lives on the line to give the performance of a lifetime. Any decision
01:58or action these people are taking in character, follow them throughout their entire career and
02:03can't really be taken back or written away.
02:05Um, I want to, you know, first of all, I want you to give us a little bit of a take on who you are,
02:11who are you? How did you become this, you know, character on the internet who serves the web
02:19looking and analyzing like fandoms and stuff like that? So where do you come from?
02:24I live on the internet. And I saw there was kind of not a lot of content about the internet itself
02:31on the internet. So I thought I would fill that void by talking about something that
02:35I'm really passionate about. I am a, uh, I like to call myself a fandom fan.
02:40Uh, people like you will often find my videos, uh, and, and go, Oh, okay. So this guy likes wrestling,
02:47right? No, that is the only video I've ever made about wrestling because the John Cena event was,
02:53I, I knew just enough about wrestling to know just how big of a deal that was. And I was like,
02:57I gotta talk about this. And I, I could, I like to talk about things for people who aren't even
03:02necessarily fans of, uh, these fandoms. They, they have some events that get so big and they're so
03:09massive for fandoms. It's hard for me not to get excited about it. And then I got to talk about it.
03:13Even if I'm not, I I've made Kendrick Drake videos. Seems like everyone has something to say
03:18about the Kendrick Drake feud now, but you want to know what I think?
03:21I think it's neat. I've made Superman videos. Superman is very controversial debates,
03:30fights, review bombing, video essays. Uh, and there's no continuity between my stuff except
03:37for it's happening on the internet. And I think it's really, really cool and exciting to talk about.
03:41And you're great at identifying these little like snippets or little like fandom moments on the
03:47internet and just like highlighting them, which is awesome. But first of all, I want to,
03:51I want to start by asking for you, for what you know, for you live, what is a fandom? I mean,
03:58what does it mean to be in a fandom today? I'm going to, I'm going to preface it by saying,
04:02for me, um, uh, I don't know. I guess I'm a bit older. I'm not sure, but, uh, you look,
04:07you know, really square, really tight, you know? So it looks good. You look young right now.
04:14For me, I go back to zines. I go back to like forums on the internet. I go back to chat rooms. I go back
04:20to blogs and that's where people kind of express their fandom in their own personal little bubble.
04:25So right now, what does it mean to be in a fandom?
04:29Uh, so there could be a lot of different definitions of it. I mentioned, I did that
04:33Kendrick Drake video and I found it really interesting that the hip hop community does not
04:37consider themselves a fandom, but I would personally, it makes it easier for me to think of a fandom as
04:44when there's enough people talking about their favorite thing, uh, enough that they form a
04:51community out of it, where you might eventually start to see people talking about other things
04:55other than the actual content they're discussing. They've gotten together to discuss. Uh, yeah,
05:01you mentioned zines. Uh, I think fan events where people would gather together to talk about,
05:07uh, their favorite stuff would inevitably turn into talking about other things that are related to
05:13it. Or if, you know, you had star Wars and star Trek mash up together. And then I think, yeah,
05:19a good start for me of what a fandom is, is when you can start making friends with people outside of
05:25just discussing the thing, which seems kind of like counterintuitive, I guess, to say the moment I
05:29recognize it as a fandom is when they stop talking about the thing they're gathering to discuss.
05:34But I do think I would say a big marker of a different, the difference between like,
05:39oh, people like this thing and they're gathering to talk about it. Uh, it's, that's something that
05:45everyone does. Movies come and go. People might say like, oh, I really liked this movie last year,
05:49but they don't hang around. They don't make fan art of it. They don't keep dwelling on it for years
05:54later. Then you can be a fan of something, but there's not really necessarily a community around
05:58that thing there. But like, it's not, it's not hard to have that these days. It's pretty easy to find,
06:04go on Tumblr and you'll find a small 200 group of people like scraping together whatever content
06:12they can find for this project. That's like 15 years old and no one's talked about it in forever,
06:17but they're still obsessed with it. They can't stop thinking about it. That's a fandom.
06:21And one, and one thing that you add to your, I know to, from what I see to your definition of a
06:27fandom is creating your own, your own piece of that fandom based on what you love. I want to go,
06:35I want to go to one quote that from one of your videos, it's a Superman video, which is my favorite
06:39on the channel, like on your channel. Cool. People like to act like fandoms are ridiculous for getting
06:43heated about stuff they love, but that's everyone that's life. Everyone's just fighting for the things
06:48they love fighting for the stuff they want to see more of. So I want to, I want to deep dive a little
06:53bit more into this. Yeah. So right. That video, that Superman video, what's, you know, what stuck
07:00out to me is not the fact that you were saying that people were right or wrong about man of steel
07:05or soup or James Gunn, Superman. It was about how passionate they can get for one or the other.
07:11Um, and people kind of like not connecting about that or, or like, I don't know,
07:17this missing that passion for Superman. Is that kind of like the through line there?
07:22Yeah, I would absolutely say like, that's kind of what I'm talking about where it's like,
07:25I think one dude obsessed with one thing sitting in a room and still making his own,
07:30like, like talk, like talking to himself in his room about it. I wouldn't call that a fandom,
07:34but I do think finding community with other people who are like, man, remember how good this was.
07:41And then people going, Oh, I saw this other thing. And it gives me the same vibes and like,
07:44it could still be good. It could come back. And then, uh, yeah, like the, the man of steel
07:49versus, uh, or the Snyder versus James Gunn thing is an interesting point of it because it's almost
07:54like there's an ebb and flow to the bigger fandoms, you know, like star Trek, I think is one of the,
08:00uh, like very, very early fandoms that there's like historical evidence of people gathering in a
08:06place and talking about this thing. I saw a hilarious meme the other day and it was somebody saying,
08:12this is what it feels like to write fan fiction for star Trek. And it was that screenshot from
08:17the original avatar, the last airbender where he's looking to his left and seeing all of the previous
08:22reincarnations that have gone through the years. Like, yeah, I think definitely a yearning for the
08:27thing that you originally fell in love with is definitely a sign of a fandom, uh, and then
08:32connecting with other people and, and, and trying to, you know, it's, and it's interesting because we're in a
08:38weird state now where people are starting to use, uh, it used to be, you would just have like,
08:43you know, a team of people making something and then they put it out into the world and then the
08:48fandoms would appreciate it. But now everything's become so interconnected and it's almost like
08:52fandoms have a authority now. So it's, it's almost likely that James Gunn got this shot at Superman
09:00because the fans were clamoring for something other than man of steel.
09:03Yeah. And I have to assume at some point, if the man of steel fandom, uh, and the Snyder fans
09:09persist long enough, we might end up going back to something like that as well.
09:13Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I don't want to jump the gun too early.
09:16Ha! There you go. See, bringing the, bringing the production value to this.
09:23But I want to talk a little bit more about that, the, the, the platforms that we're at right now,
09:27what is the state of fandoms right now? Because the internet obviously like exploded those initial
09:34like bubbles or events where it was like really limited and you live your own passion with a
09:39little group of people. But right now it exploded with the internet. So as a Netscape navigator,
09:46as you so eloquently put it, how, how do you, how are fandoms navigating this new,
09:52like not newish, but like newish territory and, and there's, you know, back and forth and discourse
09:58between and within a fandom. So how do you feel the internet is, is, is giving or, or that home
10:07within the internet is like evolving right now? I think it's changed things dramatically.
10:13And I think a lot of people feel this way about the internet. I love the internet, but I think it's
10:17created a lot of positive change and negative change in some cases.
10:20I think the positive change is obvious. We've already kind of mentioned that like,
10:23you don't have to be alone and just loving that one thing. You're not weird for it.
10:27You can find people just like you. The downside of that, I think I would say is that now there is
10:33almost like a S a very measurable score for how big and powerful your fandom is.
10:42And there's always been some bad blood and fandoms. I think that that's also historically trackable
10:49of how passionate people can get about their thing and therefore get really upset at other people
10:53who are opposing what they see as good. And now it's almost like a, it feels similar to politics in
11:00some sense, where there's a winner and a loser more so than ever before. Not just because of
11:08the fact that fandoms are able to be heard more, but I would say the people who are investing in these
11:14projects who are putting money and betting on it can now point directly at us, the fans and say,
11:21well, they're saying this and there's approximately 10 million of them saying this.
11:26Therefore we can translate this into this amount of money. So where before I think you had people
11:31fighting over, uh, you know, if Spock and Kirk were a good ship or not, and it wasn't really a big deal,
11:40but now you have the executives looking at these forums and these discussions and saying, this is
11:46important. Now we have to care about this. And I would say, like, I think the biggest where place
11:51you see this right now is with star Wars where, uh, you can look at the constantly changing opinion
12:00on what is and isn't good star Wars changing on a yearly basis on what is star Wars that right is.
12:08Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, I get it. And there there's a, and what we're seeing is we're seeing Disney,
12:14uh, as opposed to Lucas, who was one guy with a vision who was probably pretty annoyed with all
12:19of us for telling him what to do. Uh, now you have Disney going, please tell me what we should do.
12:25And we're finding very quickly that the fandom isn't necessarily great at picking winners.
12:30I think we keep seeing star Wars pivot. Yeah. Like you mentioned, I mean, I think,
12:35I think this overexposure of fandoms all over the place, it is a double-edged sword because it does
12:42give fandoms a lot of power. It does give fandoms a lot of, um, initiative, you know, to, to go out
12:49there and to speak their mind and to, you know, bash absolutely everything or love absolutely everything
12:54or bash each other, you know, stuff like that. But do you think it's getting, and to speak a little
13:01bit negatively about it because it's really beautiful and I love being, but to speak a little
13:05bit negatively about it, do you think fandoms are being kind of weaponized right now as, as not only
13:12to create content and to like really know where entertainment is going, but also in the political
13:19spectrum and the social spectrum, especially in the U S they're being like kind of weaponized for this.
13:25And some of them like won't stand for it or some of them like really get into it as well. So do you
13:31see this as well? Oh, uh, yeah. I mean, like, I think it's interesting because we're starting to see,
13:38uh, you mentioned in my Superman video where I'm talking about it's okay and normal for people to
13:42fight over this stuff. I think it's just a silly line to draw and say, if you're talking about something
13:48that is, you know, entertainment, why do you get so upset about that? And like, you can look at
13:54sports, uh, you can look at, and like politics is obviously it has a lot bigger real world implications
14:00when people are arguing over that stuff, but you do see communities of people propping up around
14:06politics as well. When people get really passionate about something, an issue. And I think that line
14:12is blurring. And I, but I think the, the one consistent thing and like, I don't really feel
14:18comfortable labeling, you know, like communities where people discuss politics as politics fandoms,
14:24but like, I do, I do feel like there's a lot of overlap. It's very upsetting to see. Yeah.
14:31It's obvious they have fan fiction somewhere. Yes. Yeah. I mean, like, like we, yeah,
14:37I think the director, I mean, okay, well, hold on. Let's, I mean, like people don't,
14:41and this is the thing people don't like, I understand why people say I don't get politics
14:46in my entertainment. And that's also a whole fandom discussion as well. So I'll avoid steering
14:51too much into politics, but yeah, I'll just say that there's a lot of overlap in the way these
14:56kinds of communities behave. And at the end of the day, there's a, like a third group that I would
15:01also point to just to make this even more controversial. I guess religion has a lot of
15:06overlap with fandoms in some cases where what it all comes down to is its ideologies. And I know a
15:12lot of people don't like thinking about heavy stuff when you're talking about your space fighters
15:18and, and, and, and your silly stuff, you don't necessarily want it to get heavy. But at the end
15:23of the day, what a lot of fandom is, is people fighting for the things that they think are right
15:28right and good. And because of that, I think people get very, very heated and take it very,
15:34very seriously. Um, I don't know about you, but going in to see Superman opening day felt very
15:43different than it has to go see movies in the past, because it felt like there was a lot riding on
15:49it a lot more than just, you know, whether the new DC universe is going to work out. It was a big,
15:57I knew it was going to shape the conversation moving forward online for probably years to come.
16:02And I think how that experience was. Yeah. Yeah. I completely agree because
16:06with Superman, it started like way before that, because we already knew this night of hers was
16:11kind of over, uh, what were, what are they going to do next? And then we start to see that we start
16:16to see things pop up from James gun Superman. And the discussion at that point all over the place,
16:23even the political spectrum was going to a place where it was going to become relevant where Superman
16:30was definitely going to become relevant because he's a nice, nice guy, because he is like you
16:35mentioned in your video, the embodiment of pure distilled good, you know? Um, so it was going to
16:42get in there at one point, but I do want to, I saw a take from a creator not long ago who said
16:48comic books and comic book fandoms are more and more impervious to ideological or political divide.
16:58What did he, we know as comic book fans, who the good guys are and who the bad guys are.
17:05So with, I'm going to go back to the punisher, you know, the punisher, his logo being used everywhere
17:12by police, by military right now, by ice agents in the States and stuff like that.
17:17We know it's being weaponized. We know it's being used for something that,
17:21you know, with, for people who clearly have not read the, the punisher comic books. Right.
17:26And we have their own very specific interpretation. That's different from what other people might have.
17:30Yeah. And the same with Superman, it's being, you know, the American tail and all this stuff that,
17:37uh, was around Superman, but we know he's good. We know what he stands for. So how do you feel about
17:44that? Do you think the comic book fandom is a little bit more impervious because we kind of know
17:49where our heroes and villains like kind of stand and there's, it's a, it's a, it's a line that they
17:55seldom cross, you know? Love that question. Um, I would say that it's, I think it's a good meeting
18:05ground. I think we all kind of come together to discuss these characters. And even if we do,
18:12some people, the thing that bummed me out, I, I, I mean, like, it's funny because like,
18:18even you can say you're a Punisher fan, right? And that might set off some alarm bells in some
18:23people's brains because you don't know what kind of Punisher they're a fan of. And the same goes for
18:29like Man of Steel, Superman versus James Gunn, Superman. They are basically the same character for
18:35all intents and purposes, but there are some pretty key differences into how they're interpreted.
18:40Uh, that stands out to me. I remember, um, I, I considered the immigrant story aspect of Superman
18:52a key part of it. Yeah. However, I've spoke to someone recently who considered it part of the canon,
19:01but not necessarily important to the character. And I think it is important to recognize that
19:08there are aspects of every character that people consider to be more or less important. You know,
19:13like one guy might've only read one Punisher comic, but his Punisher in his mind, like that's more than
19:19enough for him to be, you know, part of the fandom. Does he have a legitimate interpretation of the
19:25character? That's something that the fandom, the Punisher fandom probably has a better idea of than I do.
19:30I don't think I've read, I'm familiar with the character. I'm familiar that a huge aspect of his
19:36character arc in most interpretations I've ever seen is working outside of the law to create his
19:42own justice and the, how tricky that can be. Uh, and people can interpret that however they want,
19:50because stories usually are kind of vague about that kind of thing. If for any reason, so that a lot
19:57of people can appreciate the story and not necessarily just people who feel a certain way.
20:01Yeah. So it's like, and that's what you just said right there is like,
20:06weirdly controversial take of their interpreting the Punisher wrong. Because I'm willing to bet if
20:11you told that to one of those guys, they say, no, actually you're wrong.
20:14So I mean, and the, the, the, the finger pointing starts, you know, so no, but I understand. I
20:20completely understand. And I think it's a factor of right now, all these stories kind of merging
20:25with reality because we saw it with or right now in, in, in, in Star Wars, you know, for example,
20:31yes, the people and, or is the epitome of Star Wars right now. And it goes deep into what Star Wars
20:38like actually means socially right now rebellion and what it actually takes to be a rebel and what
20:45it actually takes for it to be in, for there to be an empire and the stuff empire will take. So,
20:51and that again, merging into like what is happening right now globally also has a toll on the fandoms
20:58because we can all agree that, you know, I don't know if we can all agree, but, but that maybe this
21:04is a Star Wars that we need right now, the story that we need told right now. So that's, that's
21:10interesting. And it, and it goes to my next point of the power of fandoms right now. As, as I mentioned
21:17in the intro is there, they're becoming louder. They're becoming more and more relevant, not only
21:23driving where entertainment is going or which movies are going to get made, but socially what
21:28stories are being told. Right. Uh, right. Because not only fandoms are creating these stories and
21:34they're coming up, you know, they came up through the ranks of their fandom to finally become the
21:40creators of that, that, you know, that story or the, you know, the people who are carrying now that torch.
21:45Um, but even in a smaller scale, ugly Sonic is, Oh my gosh, that's so crazy. I was literally
21:53like going in my head, ugly Sonic. I wanted to bring up Sonic earlier because I feel like it's
21:59the, the, that fandom is the perfect case study for, uh, having a lot of rough years for the thing
22:07that you love and the fandom coming together, like, like getting better than the, I mean,
22:14like that might be a controversial take in itself, but I think it's very impressive to see,
22:18you can kind of track the Sonic fandom where you can see Sega kind of stopped caring about Sonic
22:24because it was making money regardless of whether or not it was good stuff in my interpretation.
22:29Then maybe that's controversial as the Punisher thing. I don't know. But, uh, uh, I, I think now
22:34we're seeing a Sega reaching out to the fandom. Uh, yeah. I, I often think about, um, an artist I've
22:42been following for a very long time. Tyson Heese, I think is how his last name is pronounced, uh,
22:49made a very, very funny kind of vulgar Sonic comic that went viral. Oh, I saw that. Yeah.
22:57Yes. And he later, he was already a talented artist, uh, later got a job working at Archie
23:04comics, making the official, doing the art for the official Sonic comic. That's awesome. And then,
23:09uh, when the whole ugly Sonic thing happened, guess who they hired to help redesign Sonic?
23:16Yeah. So he went from making a very fandom, very unofficial comic to, I think he's like one of the
23:24lead artists on the Sonic movies. That's awesome. So yeah, I was immediately, it's so funny that you
23:29went straight to that. Cause as you were describing that sensation or that kind of thing happening,
23:33it's happening everywhere, but yeah, like I can't give a more perfect example. And as of late,
23:37it's one of the most public displays of like fandom rage. Yeah. Changing the result of a movie
23:46because for the better. Yeah. For the better. And it came at a cost of like millions and millions of
23:51dollars for them to remake the entire movie because fans weren't happy, you know? So that's so bad for
23:57those animators, man. You can't imagine because you, the thing is you have to do what the people at
24:01top are doing. And I guaranteed there were a lot of animators spending all that time working on that
24:05Sonic going, this is a mess. This isn't great. I don't like this, but I'm going to do it. I need
24:10that bit. I need a paycheck. And then for them to go, you know what, we've decided this doesn't look
24:14good. So we're going to do it this way now, but you know what, as long as artists are the more like,
24:19and then, like I said, in this case, it was a good thing. I think ultimately it saved the movie,
24:24got the fans excited about it. I'm sure would have probably still did decent numbers, but you saw the
24:29fandom completely do a one 80 on that franchise because of it. And they went from being like
24:35upset about it to being on the side of the movie and pushing it forward and celebrating it. It became
24:40a banner of look, this is what happens when you listen to us and you, you celebrate this thing.
24:48Um, I, I think the flip side of that is, I think some people don't think fandoms should have any say,
24:56right. And what is being done. And they, and like the, some studios almost do
25:02worse when trying to capitulate the fans because it becomes a, you know, like a, a checklist of
25:08things you got to check off to make the fans happy. And I think oftentimes that's more so coming from
25:14an outsider trying to interpret, you know, trying to amalgamate what all these different fans are
25:19saying. I, I keep going, I hate to keep on hitting star Wars, but I, I, I do think I did see Andor
25:26for the first time the other day. And I would agree that it is a very compelling and interesting
25:31movie, especially a series to watch, especially right now. But, uh, rise of Skywalker, I think,
25:37uh, is a great example of listening to the fandom almost to a detriment, I would say.
25:47Uh, or I don't know, how do you feel about that movie? Maybe this is the first one we don't see eye
25:50to eye on, uh, mistakes were made on that. Well, and I still know there are fans of it out there.
25:58I got a pretty intense discussion with the guy about who was like defending it. He still loved it.
26:04The sequel trilogy for me is a series of mistakes that were made while it was going on. I mean,
26:12decisions weren't final when they started. Uh, so as they were making it, the decisions they were
26:18making were not, you know, were not the correct ones. I like, I like a lot about the sequel. I
26:24like a lot about the, about the movies, you know, I enjoyed them a lot. Um, but I do recognize as time
26:30goes on and I've seen them again that, you know, some decisions weren't, you know, it's, they just
26:36weren't the right ones, you know? Um, and I think the fans saw that. And I think new audiences,
26:44is I, I think you will find more fans of the new movies within newer audiences to Star Wars,
26:51to Star Wars than before, you know, than prior fans of Star Wars, because they kind of repeated
26:56the same thing in, in, in, in the, the Force Awakens and then, you know, all, all the different
27:02things they made with those movies. So that's kind of like my take on it. I'm, I'm in like the middle
27:06ground, you know? Yeah. But I am enjoying a lot of what they're doing because they are trying to make
27:12original, uh, original takes and original series, original characters, um, and or being like the,
27:18the main one for me, but I appreciate that they keep doing it. But the last, I think the, the,
27:25the hill that I'll die on with Star Wars is excited. The hill that I'll die on on Star Wars is they need
27:32to keep making Star Wars. They, okay. I don't want Star Wars to stop because it's not for everyone,
27:41but what they do every time they do something new, it, it gets me excited to watch it. You know,
27:46that's cool. I like the acolyte. Um, I haven't seen the, the little with the,
27:51like the Goonies style show that came out with Jude Law. Oh yeah. I saw, I, yeah, it's okay. So maybe
27:57this is our first argument because yeah, I'm actually, I think for me, Star Wars is an event.
28:07And I think the more, I think, I think I do want them to keep making Star Wars, but I think the more
28:13you do of Star Wars, the less special it becomes. If that makes sense. I think I like Star Wars as more
28:19of a big event. I would love it if it was like a thing that you get a new trilogy every decade.
28:27And then you don't get a whole lot more. And then that way, it's kind of like still a special
28:32thing. Even if it's not great, people still get excited to go see it. People still have their
28:36favorites. I mean, like, I like, we don't got to get too into it because now we're going to super
28:42niche into this one fandom. We're supposed to be talking about fandoms, but, uh, uh, I do think
28:47it is interesting how we have generations of Star Wars fans now. And in the same way, we've seen,
28:53uh, one generation completely dismiss, uh, the prequels that Lucas did. And then the generation
29:00following that prop those back up again as something very special because they grew up with it.
29:05I wouldn't be surprised if we see another third generation of, you know, like what we now consider
29:10the sequel era prop up as like, these were actually brilliant. I, and like, maybe they, they just weren't
29:16for me. Maybe it's this other generation that's enjoying them right now is going to appreciate
29:21them more than I ever could. And I would, I think that's one of the things I've learned from looking
29:25at all these different fandoms online is like the only people who really lose here are the people who
29:30dedicate most of their effort to hating something without creating anything. Uh, so yeah, it's like,
29:35I think the looking at, uh, a fandom or looking at a new franchise or a new interpretation of the
29:41franchise and just sitting there going, this sucks. I hate this. This is bad. That's really the only,
29:44like you are, you're totally valid for feeling that way, but do something with it, man. Like
29:49make your own fanzine, uh, make fan art, talk about like, make a new version of stuff.
29:54Uh, but segue into what are the latest or most recent fandoms that you think right now are the
30:03most interesting, at least for you who kind of lived through this and kind of study this, you know, to,
30:08to, to make your, your content. I, and I'm biased on this because I am an animator. So I do
30:14like to, I know animation isn't for everybody. It's not everyone's favorite medium. Um, but I
30:20think there's been a really interesting boom of indie animation right now that has been able to
30:26function with a direct line to the fan, like to the fandom. Um, a pilot just came out from glitch
30:34productions called the Knights of Guinevere. And I believe the team was formed after a Disney show,
30:44I think called the owl house got canceled a little prematurely and they went and then went to the
30:51smaller YouTube channel that, uh, you might know from doing, um, amazing digital circus was another
30:57one that's been pretty popular, uh, which kind of taps into, and this might, I know some of the people
31:03working on it. Um, but tapped into like a more, it kind of feels like targeting the five nights at
31:09Freddy's audience a little bit. Okay. Like they've kind of grown up a little bit, but they're still
31:12interested in this idea of like a very colorful, uh, horror kind of atmosphere. And, um, I think
31:20what it's so interesting to me about that fandom in glitch productions, and then, uh, I'll just shout
31:27out a few more has been hotel, an interesting project going on right now is the homestuck revival.
31:34I don't know if, you know, homestuck, if that sounds familiar to you at all, that is a entirely
31:39online produced Odyssey. Like it's a, it's actually a huge sprawling. It was a like daily biweekly,
31:47weekly, monthly updating comic that also had like animation in it. And the fandom became,
31:52if you don't know homestuck, I bet if you were like in the con scene in the two thousands,
31:58you would be aware of the homestuck fans. It like their fandom kind of ended up retroactively,
32:04like people were more aware of the fandom than they were for the actual product at the time.
32:09And interestingly enough, like, it's almost like you talk to the homestuck fandom and it sounds like
32:14talking to like a veteran, you're asking a veteran about a war. They're like, I haven't heard that name
32:19in a long time. Hussy. Those were different times. And like, and what's crazy is, uh, an artist named
32:26Vivzy pop. It has a Amazon backed, uh, animation that like another artist who got their start online
32:34deviant art kind of era stuff back in the 2010s. And now they're doing full fledged productions of
32:40animated seasons of stuff that's pulling in huge crowds at conventions and stuff like that.
32:45Uh, I think largely because it's, it's, they're putting it all up for free online. So it's like some
32:51of the highest quality YouTube content you can find. It looks like something that would be on
32:56television or in a movie theater or on a streaming platform, but it's, they're posting to YouTube
33:00right away. And the fandom is pretty intense. And I think it's very interesting that they're bringing
33:06back a old franchise. I don't even know if you can call Homestuck a franchise. That feels gross.
33:11They're bringing back Homestuck, which has a, uh, very interesting fandom history. Uh, and they're
33:18exposing it now to this new audience and that's going to be interesting.
33:22Is that, is that kind of like the way fandoms go full circle? Because I know as they become creators
33:30and they see their stuff out there, is there, is that work or are those creations better served
33:37in a smaller scale to their own fandoms or, uh, what does it take for them to like,
33:42kind of like break away into the mainstream, for example?
33:45Ooh, that's an interesting question. I think the, um, the biggest thing that you need to break out,
33:54like I have something I like to call, and this is kind of one of the reasons that's a good idea for
33:58me to make a video when suddenly you have everyone talking about something, even people outside of the
34:03fandom, that's the Kendrick Lamar. That's the, uh, John Cena kind of moments, um, where all of a sudden
34:10everyone has an opinion on this because everyone's being exposed to it and weighing in on it.
34:14I do think there needs to be, to get out of that bubble. You really need, uh, man, it's, it's hard.
34:22I think it used to be influencers were a big part of it. You would, you see a lot of
34:27Undertale, Five Nights at Freddy's. You can track a lot of those success of those two franchises,
34:33not just to being good, compelling, interesting games, but because huge let's players were blowing
34:39up at that time and were able to capitalize on these cool games to spread. And like, people got
34:45excited about the games. It was like a very symbiotic relationship, right? Between influencers
34:49and media to talk about the media. Uh, when people get excited about media, they want to talk about it.
34:55So they'll find influencers are talking about it and then influencers will be eager for more
35:00media to come out. So then that benefits the media. Um, that's a cyclical relationship that
35:06is often very helpful for getting, you know, news out there. I think a lot of let's players now make
35:11money by acting as advertising to like, say, Hey, play our game on your stream. And if it does well,
35:18maybe you can keep playing it and we'll cut you in or something like that. But I think the bigger
35:22thing is seeing people getting excited about something is what it takes to get outside of
35:29just your little insular thing. Like, uh, just getting, like, I think I saw Mr. Beast tweeting
35:35about that Knights of Guinevere thing. And I would never thought he would be a fan of that, but it's
35:40interesting. Like he, I wanted to give them credit because he thought what they were doing was really
35:43interesting. And I think that's what you need to really get success. And it's, you need to get
35:49people who have no idea what this thing is, but they're, they're like, what is it? Like, I want
35:53to know now, like you can, and that's hard. Cause, uh, you know, I think that's one of the reasons
35:58movies are struggling these days is because it takes a financial investment up front to get involved
36:05with it. But I feel movies aren't getting the chance to be talked about, um, as much as they were
36:11before they're either good or bad, which sucks. Um, because you don't get that conversation. You don't
36:19get people excited. You don't get people passionate, like, uh, passionately talking
36:23about those movies to see if they're good or bad. It's just like, it's just like a constant head
36:29butting. And then that's it. You know, that's influencing the studios too. They're like, we're
36:33not going to make this unless it's going to be beloved and everyone's going to talk about it.
36:37I saw the Minecraft movie the other day and I was like, this was cool, but I bet there could
36:41have been a lot of other cool things also, but you have to do something that's already
36:46popular nowadays to make a successful movie. And that's, that's another example of like
36:50fandoms really, you know, speaking up and going like, no, this is, you know, this is actually kind
36:55of interesting and, and a good take on what we like on what we're passionate about. So let's talk about
37:00it. Okay. Uh, we're closing down here, but let me, you know, yeah, I know, keep going, man. I can
37:09keep going. So let's, you know, let's save it for a part two, you know? All right. Okay. Okay. But
37:14anyway, thank you. Thank you so much for this conversation, man. This was great. This was a
37:19great time. I'm going to keep following the channel. Please invite people to all your channels.
37:24Go for it. You have, okay. Uh, you guys can find me by looking up four zero four tails. That's T A L E S
37:33on just about every single platform you can imagine. I think, uh, I'm not doing a whole lot of streaming,
37:39but man, I'm on Tik TOK. I'm on Instagram. I'm on YouTube. Uh, I think I still have an X account.
37:44I'm on blue sky. Uh, yeah. If you know a platform that I'm not on, let me know. I will go to it. I love
37:50the internet. I love exploring new places and I love talking to strangers. So hit me up.
37:54Perfect. And you know, stealing from you again, safe travels, Netscape Navigators,
38:00and we'll see you here again at Mojo at, uh, in our next episode. So thank you again.
38:06See you later. Bye guys.
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