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In My Own Words - Season 2 Episode 1 -
Frederick Forsyth
Frederick Forsyth
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03:22Em kỹ quý vị đã thấy tôi đã bắt đầu tướng pháp bạc,
03:27nhưng tên bác nói,
03:29không làm gì tôi làm cho cuộc hôm nay.
03:33Lại h wird xa căn bộ.
03:35Để tìm vô trai hay công việc.
03:38Em đã được bắt được bráz đại bạc bạc Trang Trang Trang Trang Trang,
03:41tôi không thể bắt được trả lấy đại chúng tôi.
03:44Trong đạo họ tr Associs này,
03:46đã được bắt đầu tập bệnh của tôi.
03:47Từ đó, anh có tới trái.
03:49Ready?
03:50When you're ready, press play.
03:57That's Tunbridge school.
04:00Yep.
04:06I didn't have a very happy experience at Tunbridge.
04:10All my contemporaries
04:12were the sons of doctors, surgeons, lawyers, bankers
04:16and my father was a shopkeeper.
04:22I was relentlessly bullied.
04:27Schoolwork thrown all over the room.
04:30I had bedclothes on the floor.
04:33Pushing and shoving, punching.
04:37I longed to leave.
04:40But back then, it was, sniff up a lip, don't make a fuss.
04:46And that caused me to withdraw into myself.
04:52I would shut myself away in my cubicle, close the door.
04:56The habit of solitude became very ingrained in me.
05:01But at 16, I was skipping school.
05:11Taking the secret flying classes.
05:14And then a tiger moth.
05:18And looping over the midway estuary.
05:21And then I would go back to Tunbridge.
05:25Had I been discovered, I would have been expelled immediately.
05:31Since I was a boy, I wanted to be a pilot in the Air Force.
05:37That shrimp was right underneath the Battle of Britain.
05:44And I remember, I must have been about three years old,
05:48standing on the lawn of our house.
05:52And my father's khaki-trousered leg next to me.
05:55He was staring upwards.
05:58In the sky were Spitfires and Hurricanes.
06:04Flying against the Luftwaffe.
06:06My dad revered those young men.
06:17So, naturally, I wanted to fly a Spitfire too.
06:25My dad was the powerful influence of my childhood.
06:27I thought he was an extraordinary man, a remarkable man.
06:30I worship my dad's memory to this day.
06:39When I sat at Tunbridge that I was going to leave early and join the Air Force,
06:44I got an awful lot of schoolmasterly opposition.
06:48A lot of pressure.
06:50Eventually they sent my father to try and talk him into talking me out of it.
06:55And one after another, they lectured him.
06:57Very much from on high to down below.
07:03And Dad, God bless him, just sat there and listened to this.
07:07And when they'd all had their ten minutes each lecturing him,
07:11he delivered one single sentence.
07:13He said, gentlemen, if my son wants to become a British fighter pilot,
07:19I'm going to give him all the help and encouragement that I can.
07:22And then he got up and walked out.
07:31Oh, yeah. I remember that.
07:33Three years of struggle, from 15 to 18.
07:38And I finally got it.
07:40The wings of an RAF pilot are on my chest.
07:42My parents were about ten feet away.
07:46I know they were very proud that day.
07:49Dad really was bursting.
07:53So, yeah.
07:54I did two years of natural service.
08:00And after that, the question arose.
08:03Are you going to sign it on in the RAF?
08:06Or are you going to leave?
08:09I wanted to be assigned to a supersonic squadron.
08:13I was told rather pityingly that I'd be commanding a desk.
08:16So, I left.
08:21I just want to show you this letter you wrote.
08:24I've completely forgotten this.
08:27Why I do not want to sign on in the Royal Air Force.
08:34Oh, dear.
08:35In the Air Force of today, as I have seen it, there is far too little scope for energy, enthusiasm, initiative, drive, brains or talent.
08:51Or any of those qualities usually associated with success.
08:57Harsh words.
08:59Yes, they are.
09:06Don't forget why I was their only child.
09:09And only children do tend to be sometimes a bit self-obsessed.
09:15And don't understand why anybody else should not subscribe to their rules.
09:21So, that can create problems in life.
09:25Is that you, Freddie?
09:26Yep.
09:27Yep.
09:28Definitely.
09:32I thought, what the hell are you going to do now?
09:37I know, foreign correspondent.
09:40I'll be like those men that used to be in Dad's paper when I was a boy.
09:48I got a job on the Eastern Daily Press in Norfolk.
09:51And there, I learned journalism.
09:55To keep it accurate.
09:57How to interview.
09:59How to track down sources.
10:01Damn good training.
10:03In the business of accuracy.
10:04And I wanted a much bigger map of the world.
10:05So, I went down to London.
10:14And I hawked myself around Fleet Street.
10:19I was getting rebuffed at every single door.
10:22And they ended up in a bar.
10:27And a middle-aged man on the same bar said, look at me and said, you're pretty fed up.
10:34My boy, what's the matter?
10:35I'm trying to get into journalism.
10:38I always said, why don't you come with me and we'll cross the road.
10:42I'm with the Press Association.
10:44But as soon as he learned that I spoke French and German, he said, you want Reuters?
10:48And I started in Reuters.
10:56Paris office.
11:01Wow.
11:03This is the French press card.
11:06Which I would flash when I wanted to get access to somewhere in Paris.
11:10Paris has always been very lively.
11:21I'm enjoying life.
11:23My flat was just near the Moulin Rouge.
11:27I had girlfriend after girlfriend after girlfriend.
11:32What was your brief for Reuters in Paris?
11:35I was covering repeated attempts to assassinate the president of France.
11:39Charles de Gaulle.
11:40The extreme right wanted him dead.
11:54So it was a very tense time to be in Paris.
11:59I managed to find a bar the extreme right wing frequented.
12:04And sat nursing a beer.
12:06They drank too much.
12:10They got loose thunder.
12:12And I listened.
12:14And that was plotting to assassinate the president?
12:17Yeah.
12:19How and when and where and who.
12:23Reuters was suddenly advised, I suspect, by British officialdom, to get me out of Paris.
12:30How old were you when all this is going on?
12:3322.
12:35That's pretty young.
12:37Yeah.
12:39Yeah.
12:41So I was transferred to the communist hell of East Germany.
12:45After the building of the Berlin Wall, the Reuters man was the only Western journalist left, East of the Wall.
13:01Room bar, bedroom bar, office bar, and my phone was bugged.
13:07So I was living under a microscope.
13:11What was followed everywhere?
13:12How much did you tell your parents about what you were really up to?
13:27Not a lot.
13:28Mother would have worried.
13:29But then mum wouldn't worry about anything.
13:30If I crossed the road, she worried.
13:32I went back to London to join the BBC.
13:47They were doing reports for the evening news.
13:52Mr. Joan Mears, the chairman of Chelsea Football Club, who's also chairman of the Football Association, has declined to be interviewed about the whole matter.
14:00And someone said, will you go to Africa for us?
14:03I said, I don't do Africa.
14:05And they said, oh, come on, it's only a week.
14:09Maybe ten days.
14:11Fly down there, file a report, fly back.
14:14There's been an outbreak of civil war in Nigeria.
14:21Five million Igbo tribesmen in Nigeria's eastern region, the Afra, as they now call it, have declared independence.
14:28This is a cruel war with modern weapons in its way as cruel as the war in Vietnam.
14:33And having got there, I discovered that what was going out on BBC was a complete rubbish.
14:50Absolute nonsense.
14:51It had nothing to do with the reality of what was on there on the ground.
14:54What were they saying was happening?
14:55Oh, that the Nigerian army had swept through the rebel territory, defeating the Biafran army at every step.
15:02In fact, it hadn't happened.
15:04Because the British government was supporting the Nigerian dictatorship.
15:09So, if the British government said this isn't happening, the BBC would say it isn't happening.
15:13But I reported what I found.
15:17We're a news gathering organisation.
15:20Or we're nothing.
15:22This is the town of Ore in western Nigeria, the town that the Federal armies said they thought couldn't be taken.
15:27Well, it's been taken by the Biafrans.
15:30They moved in this morning, consolidated their position and moved even further west.
15:33And that's what the BBC didn't want to hear.
15:36They wanted to hear that Nigeria was winning hands down.
15:39And that was all they wanted to hear.
15:42The Foreign Office accused me of bias.
15:45Well, I was summoned into London by the BBC.
15:50I said, I think I'd like to go back.
15:53Well, he said, we have a policy of no covering that story.
15:57I said, oh, well, unfortunately I don't.
16:01So I'm off.
16:05So I resigned.
16:07Well, very shortly afterwards, I was sitting at a cafe in Camden.
16:12A man walked in and looked around and looked at me and then walked over and then took a chair, the chair opposite me and sat down.
16:21He said, I'm so-and-so and we really need a man, or an agent anyway, right in the very heart of Biafrans.
16:32They wanted to hear what is going on. Are they likely to continue resisting? Are they collapsing?
16:43You've been a little bit opaque about this gentleman.
16:46Oh yes, I'm talking about MI6.
16:50So I went back as a freelance foreign correspondent.
16:55I got myself attached to the Biafran army.
16:58Do what I told you.
17:01Covering the story from the Biafran side.
17:05But also as an agent for MI6, getting real information out of this now completely surrounded enclave.
17:26The Nigerian army put a circle round Biafran.
17:34They stopped all food supplies.
17:37I remember I was sitting in my hut in Inugu, the capital of Biafran.
17:53I looked out the window and there she was on the lawn.
17:57And she had her little brother by one hand.
18:01And she raised her other hand with a gesture, I'm hungry, give me food.
18:08Tapped her mouth.
18:11I tried to explain, I didn't speak a word of her language, Igbo language.
18:16I hadn't got any food.
18:17And she just nodded as much as to say, yes, I understand.
18:23And turned away and led her little three-year-old brother off into the bush, the jungle.
18:33Where I knew they would die.
18:36And I just went back to my chair and I sat down.
18:40I leaned my head forward and my forearms had just burst into tears.
18:46It was one of the very few times that I'd ever wept.
18:50As a girl, as an adult.
18:52As an adult.
19:02To be so helpless made me angry.
19:08Angry with officials supporting it as a policy.
19:12Who could have stopped it if they'd wanted to?
19:14And they insisted that the denial of food continue.
19:22One has to ask, how the hell do they sleep at night?
19:34Back in London, they had no flat, no car, no money, no savings, nothing.
19:40With a huge question mark.
19:42What the hell are you going to do now?
19:45And I didn't know.
19:48And then I hit on this weird idea.
19:52I'll write a novel.
19:55I had an idea in my head and I'd had it in my head for seven years.
19:59Since Paris.
20:01When I'd covered those repeated attempts to assassinate Charles de Gaulle.
20:07And I thought at the time, if the extreme right-wing really wants to kill him,
20:12they might succeed, thought I, if they'd brought in a professional assassin.
20:16And paid him to do what they can't do.
20:24I was crashing on the sofa of a friend in Chelsea.
20:28When they left for work, about nine o'clock, I would settle down at the kitchen table.
20:32And I just tapped and tapped and tapped and tapped.
20:38I gave myself a ration of 10 pages per day.
20:42And I did that for 35 days.
20:43It's a hundred to one chance ever to be published.
20:50But the fifth publisher I approached.
20:54Harold Harris of Hutchinson.
20:56He said, it's a bit interesting.
20:58I'm prepared to take a risk.
21:00And publish it.
21:01And he said, I'll offer you a three novel contract.
21:06Wow.
21:08Like paradise.
21:09Three novel contract.
21:11So I thought, wow.
21:12This is a writer who hadn't got tarpence to rub together.
21:16But there was a problem.
21:19I had not a shred of an idea to what novel two or three would ever be about.
21:24I just didn't know.
21:25I'd only ever planned one.
21:28What I'm writing tends to be quasi-factual.
21:32That's all I know about in post-war Germany.
21:34Because they've been there.
21:37And I know about in Africa they've been there.
21:40So I wrote a synopsis on each.
21:43The Odessa file and the dogs of war.
21:48The Odessa file is about the uncovering of a Nazi mass murderer in Germany.
21:54By an investigative reporter.
21:58And the dogs of war was about a mega rich mining magnate.
22:03Engaging the services of half a dozen mercenaries to top a West African dictator.
22:09There were six mercenaries in Biafra.
22:12And I got to know them all.
22:14Harold Harris said I want Nazis by next year and the dogs of war the year after.
22:24Well that was a pretty tight schedule.
22:28So I said fine I'll get stuck in immediately.
22:31And he gave me an advance.
22:35Which I could then use to fund the research.
22:39Into Odessa file.
22:41I love accuracy.
22:43And so I go through a lot of time and trouble.
22:46Traveling and traveling and traveling in the preparation of my novels.
22:50If you're going to describe something, get it right.
22:52And I went down to Vienna.
22:58And I got in touch with Simon Wiesenthal.
23:02The great Nazi hunter.
23:05O-D-E-S-S-A.
23:09The organization of former members of the SS.
23:13And I said I'm writing a fictional Nazi concentration camp commander.
23:21Who vanished in 1945 and has never been seen since.
23:25And I remember Simon saying well why invent one?
23:29I've got real ones.
23:32Which one would suit you?
23:34And eventually I arrived at.
23:37Rushman.
23:38Edward Rushman.
23:43The butcher of Riga.
23:45There was an extreme right-wing movement in Germany.
23:49And the Odessa had penetrated the establishment.
23:52It had members high in the police force.
23:56And in the Ministry of Justice.
23:58And the civil service.
24:00And many of them had been involved in mass murder.
24:03So it went undercover in Germany.
24:05To pretend to be a young Nazi fanatic.
24:10And I went to secret meetings.
24:16That's a kind of a dangerous place to put yourself.
24:20Yes.
24:24Did you enjoy it?
24:26It's challenging to pretend to be what you're not.
24:28Or not to be what you are.
24:30But while I was researching and writing the Odessa file.
24:36Well they launched the Day of the Jackal.
24:39With a print of 5,000 copies.
24:46And it just exploded.
24:48It just went completely crazy.
24:50The reorders came in.
24:53In buckets.
24:58We got to a point where they had a backlog of orders.
25:01They couldn't fulfill.
25:03The printing machines wouldn't work any faster.
25:06And then the Americans came in.
25:08And then the Japanese came in.
25:10With huge numbers.
25:11So how did you feel about that?
25:24Bewildered.
25:26Bewildered, yeah.
25:28But by then I was so deeply involved in the subsequent novels.
25:33Researching and writing.
25:35The Odessa file and the dogs of war.
25:37Frederick Forsyth developed in the Jackal.
25:40The magic formula of mixing fact with fantasy.
25:43The Odessa file and the hunt for Nazi war.
25:45The Odessa file is Frederick Forsyth's immensely successful follow up to the Day of the Jackal.
25:53Very shortly after they made a film of the Jackal.
25:59The director stuck to the story absolutely like gloom.
26:04They retained the title.
26:09And since then it's become embedded in the lingo.
26:13As an assassin.
26:17Oh yes.
26:18The watermelon.
26:26Then the checks began rolling in.
26:29Rumour has it that you made your first million.
26:31Is that true?
26:33Hmm.
26:35It's a rather large amount of money.
26:37It's not afraid.
26:39It's a large amount of money.
26:44I'd never need to work again.
26:46I didn't want to.
26:48But I was still writing all the time.
26:51To finish Dogs of War.
26:53I bought a farm in Spain.
26:56And then I married Carrie.
27:02She was 27.
27:07Came from Northern Ireland.
27:09The Forsyth's are in a way just the sort of couple that Freddie might have invented.
27:17Good looking, bronzed, all the war correspondents.
27:20Good God.
27:21Married to a very attractive model.
27:23And both ideally happy.
27:24And then my wife being Irish, she said why don't we go and sell in Ireland.
27:33So I bought a house at Inner Skerry in County Wicklow.
27:38Both my sons were born there.
27:41And Carrie and I lived there for five years.
27:46There aren't lots of female characters in your books.
27:53No.
27:55That's true.
27:57It's a diversion.
27:58If it was absolutely necessary for the development of the plot that X and Y and Z happened, then I would say this and that, this and that happened.
28:05But where the hero or villain is simply taking an afternoon off, I mean, I feel I can go on to when he takes up his real activity, which is probably killing somebody again.
28:15And as for the women characters, they've quite rightly been described as cardboard cutout figures.
28:20And this is true also. I can't describe women.
28:24I see. Why is that?
28:25I don't understand.
28:28We've got that much in common at least.
28:30You do?
28:31Absolutely, yeah.
28:35Do you know who you were actually writing for?
28:39I possibly do. He's probably a middle-aged man.
28:43I'm not being sexist.
28:45I just think that if there's someone out there saying, that's what I want to hear about.
28:50Tell me about this.
28:51It'd probably be a 47, 48-year-old business executive who's getting home tired at night and wants all his feet up and a nice cup of tea and read a story.
29:07That will interest him.
29:10Because it's reasonably factual.
29:13And hopefully accurate.
29:15Now, Miles Copeland, you helped to set up the CIA.
29:19And how close did Frederick Forsyth come to the literal truth?
29:22Well, first, let me say that I think it's a first-rate novel.
29:26I couldn't put it down.
29:27A little short on sex there, Freddie.
29:29But we can't have everything.
29:31He does some research on this, which I just don't believe because...
29:34I don't understand. In fact, I think I'm going to take this up when I go home.
29:37Some of my old colleagues must have told him things I had no business telling him.
29:40Some of the things that he had to say in there about how these things are run are absolutely 100% authentic.
29:45Um, I want to talk a bit more about your relationship with MI6.
29:52Yeah.
29:54I imagine it worked both ways?
29:59Uh, yes.
30:02And how often did you carry out these kind of errands for MI6?
30:07I can't say.
30:09Sorry, I can't say.
30:11Really, I can't say.
30:15We were in Ireland for five years and then returned to London.
30:26But I couldn't work at home.
30:28I'd be constantly disturbed, interrupted.
30:32If I'm trying to write something, I mean, that involves a lot of, of, um, inner thoughts.
30:40Um, and sometimes just, just sitting, staring at the, at the paper or the typewriter.
30:47Uh, getting those thoughts.
30:49And then someone comes bursting in.
30:51That's it! You listen, that's it!
30:53Oh, shut up. Gone now. It's gone.
30:58Is being a writer compatible with family life, Freddie?
31:01Writers have a part of themselves that is shut away and not available.
31:09Locked in this thing, this bone dome called the cranium.
31:17And, uh, even in company, there's part of you that's still detached.
31:21Not easy, uh, to, to cope with someone like that.
31:27And, uh, Carrie and I grew apart.
31:32And she eventually said, this isn't working. Would you, would you leave?
31:38Your first wife, uh, parted with you partly because of your, your, your writing?
31:43Well, I don't know whether it was that.
31:45It wasn't, um, it, I mean, I never tried to be obsessive about writing.
31:51And, and I think really I didn't probably put in more than nine to five.
31:55But anyway, uh, no, there were, there were other, one grew apart.
31:58So what, what do you think you've been like to live with down the years?
32:03I, I don't know.
32:04It's a judgment only other people could make.
32:06Someone looking at you.
32:07But you've talked about a, a certain requisite detachment that writers have.
32:13Yeah. Yeah.
32:14I think you have it.
32:15If you, if you want to be a writer, you must have it.
32:16One might, someone might say that's a very cold sort of attitude to life.
32:22I think it, for a writer, I don't think it's, it's an option.
32:28So I moved from London to the country in, in one fell swoop.
32:37But, alas, my wife, number one, didn't like the country at all.
32:42So, um, it, it, it didn't work.
32:49And the boys would come out to visit me weekends.
32:52And, uh, I mean, it, it must be very, very dramatic for children to see their parents part.
33:01I'd been apart with my first wife for a year when I met the lady who became my second wife.
33:18And her name was Sandy.
33:20And within, I sort of thought by it, she'd come out to share my life at the farm.
33:27So she moved in and we'd married four years later.
33:29What are those?
33:40These?
33:41Yeah.
33:42That's like little tablets.
33:43They remind me not to shove a cigarette in there.
33:47My wife, Sandy, disliked it.
33:51She said, you've got to stop, you've got to stop.
33:54Were you a big smoker?
33:56Yeah, about 30 a day.
33:59Yes, exactly.
34:00I was lucky to escape with no, no shadows on lungs, no cancer.
34:06In 1991, Dad was, uh, he was ailing.
34:21But my mother had died, so he'd been alone for two years.
34:27They were very, very much feeling alone because they were very deeply devoted for, so, 45, 50 years.
34:42I had planned to go on with my then very young wife, Sandy, to the Caribbean for a holiday.
34:52And he said, you will absolutely not counsel.
34:59Anyway, we went.
35:01And I think the third or fourth day there, a voice came on the phone and it was, um, his living carer to say that he'd just died.
35:16It was not unexpected.
35:18But it was a, a wrench.
35:30I wouldn't have gone if he hadn't begged me to go.
35:36I hope I was a good son, because he was certainly a bloody good father.
35:40But I think, I think he, I think he, I think he, I think he would have said that I was.
35:47And certainly, uh, we, we both, uh, had a very, very good relationship.
35:54Um, very close.
35:59So, anyway, all families have losses.
36:01What am I going to see?
36:16A man who pleaded guilty for forgingly misleading financial regulators before his company...
36:21That was him.
36:22He was an investment broker.
36:23He informed me that I now had a, a, a, a big holding here.
36:25And he said, you know, I'm not going to be here.
36:26I'm not going to be here.
36:27I'm not going to be here.
36:28as community service and banned from being a company director for several years.
36:33Among his clients, the author, Frederick Forsythe.
36:35No, I said, I would責任 and Ruiz,
36:37Macavie, Antoinette,
36:39he could detain very little business of such grabger catalog.
36:40In fact, we are not going to be here close to himself,
36:43in the position of anypectporance that you have hidden and indie companies.
36:46which is, we know it's massive controversy.
36:47Take it to our heritage,
36:51but I amologia you and store here results.
36:52Am I done?
36:53You, I love it.
36:54I don't know where I really want to write some results to share.
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38:06Tôi đã nói, tôi nói, tôi không thể tin tốt, nhưng tôi đã nói, tôi không thể tin tốt.
38:18Vì 15 năm rồi, tôi đã mất bản trọng.
38:21Những người thứ tôi đã làm đã được rồi.
38:26Tôi đã tắt đầu tổ ra.
38:28Trong trọng trọng trọng trọng trọng, trọng trọng trọng trọng trọng trọng,
38:31tồn bài tọng trọng trọng trọng trọng trọng trọng.
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40:55Đó là một đứa đoàn đoàn đoàn.
41:04Nhưng tôi đã chỉ thất vọng của tôi.
41:09Sau đó, tôi đã chỉ thất vọng của tôi.
41:17Nhưng tôi đã thất vọng của tôi.
41:19I think yes she became very dependent on medication and she simply suffered a
41:28health collapse
41:34and the downward spiral just refused to reverse itself and she finally passed
41:43away
41:49I can get emotional about those things but I take them for my privacy if I'm going to be emotional
42:04shut myself away
42:08they're not going to go and blub on Nye Street
42:13Sandy wanted a very quiet cremation
42:21very short and dignified and it was
42:26she wanted ashes scattered where her babies were scattered
42:32the only babies she ever had were Jack Russell's
42:37she had no children, didn't want children
42:40it was here, underneath this tree
42:46Sandy was, he's here
42:51how does it feel to be on your own again
43:00but I have lots of friends and people have written and emailed and telephoned and sent their
43:13commiserations and so I'm not alone in the world it's just that well I live alone obviously
43:20and uh I shall not uh how shall I put it change that now till the day I die
43:28perhaps you could write again
43:31I might, I might, a need peace and quiet which I get very too little of
43:35um I'm going to have to sit down soon
43:38I'm going to have to sit down soon
43:41Can you give me a hand back?
43:42Can you give me a hand back?
43:47Oah
43:47Oah
43:48Oah
43:49Oah
43:52Oah
43:54Oah
43:57Oah
43:58Oah
43:59Oah
44:00Oah
44:01Oah
44:02Oah
44:02Oah
44:03Oah
44:04Oah
44:05Oah
44:05Oah
44:06Oah
44:07Oah
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