00:08My guest today is Romanian Foreign Minister Oana Coyu.
00:12Romania shares the EU's longest land border with Ukraine
00:16and is in the crossfire of Moscow's hybrid war.
00:19Minister Coyu came into the role in June this year
00:22after a period of turbulence for Romania's democracy
00:26and amid escalating tensions between Europe and Russia.
00:29Minister Coyu, thank you so much for joining us. Welcome to the show.
00:32Thank you for having us.
00:34So I'd like to start with security and defence
00:36because Romania has experienced several instances of drones violating its airspace
00:41most recently in early September.
00:44How do you assess the scale of this threat to Romania's security?
00:49We're a country that is safe because we have our own capacity to defend
00:54but also because we have the allied forces present in Romania.
00:58but also we have been here together with our Ministry of Defence, Mr. Jonas Mostanu.
01:03On his side, alongside the other ministries and in the NATO format,
01:07they are working on the preparedness and the increase of our military capacity.
01:12On our side, even in events from the civil society,
01:16as has been the one from the Friends of Europe and Jacques Delors Foundation recently,
01:21were working on the societal resilience.
01:24What do I mean by that?
01:25Is that even if the general audience has typically noticed the actual incursion into our airspace
01:32and other countries as well by the Russian drones,
01:36those have always been together with misinformation campaigns,
01:40with the tests that Russia has put on our democracy, on our information spaces,
01:45to also try to change the narrative around those incursions.
01:49We'll get to that issue of societal threats that you mentioned,
01:54but on the military side, can you give us a sense of whether Romania is actually prepared
01:59to shoot down these intruding drones and aircrafts if they are considered a real threat?
02:05Yes, we are prepared. We have changed our laws recently,
02:09so we allow for the pilots of the planes that are following the drones to shoot,
02:15if that is the case. Also, we have changed the legislation,
02:19so we allow for different air defence systems to be able to also,
02:22in the case it is needed, to shoot them down.
02:25It has actually been the case with the recent drone incursion
02:28that the Minister of Defence has given the approval to shoot down the drones.
02:32It is always a matter, though, of assessing the risk,
02:35whether the actual shooting down of the drone doesn't create more risk on the ground
02:40than the potential risk from the drone itself.
02:43But we do have the capacity, the political will and decision.
02:46If we can contribute to diminish the risks that are created on Ukrainian territory,
02:52we're going to contribute to that as well, making sure that if they enter our territory,
02:57we are ready to use our capacity to take them down.
03:00Because you are on the front line, you have the EU's longest land border with Ukraine.
03:04Yes.
03:05Your government has also said it wants to partner with Ukraine to build more drones,
03:09defensive drones. Can you give us more information about the scale of that partnership?
03:13When could these drones be operational?
03:15So we have had conversation at the defence level,
03:18but also at the foreign affairs level and governmental level,
03:21to create common projects, but also to create the needed laws and needed approvals,
03:28so that the private sphere also advances faster in that direction.
03:33For example, we already have in the private industries projects that are Romanian-Ukrainian,
03:38in the sense that they also test the drones commonly using their common knowledge,
03:44and they have also recently acquired investments from the United States.
03:50We want to continue with even more projects, even from the public sphere,
03:54and to be able to have that not just for our own needs in terms of military procurement and capacity,
04:01but also to create this offering together with combat-tested know-how that the Ukrainians now have,
04:09in order to have that offering for other states that might need them.
04:13So you're talking about the potential to use these to protect the eastern flank beyond Romania?
04:18Yes, we're assessing now potential projects that do not only produce for our own needs,
04:24but can also create an offering for other countries that want to increase their capacity.
04:29Because when we look at the defence priority, it is clearly that now we have a commitment at the NATO side,
04:36but also at the European level side, to increase our budgets, to be able to meet that ambition.
04:42You mentioned NATO commitment, EU commitments. The commitments are certainly there.
04:46We have various initiatives now in order to protect the eastern flank, the so-called drone wall.
04:51The EU has just said that it thinks that could be fully functional by 2027. Do you agree with that assessment?
04:58We agree with that assessment and we believe time is of the essence.
05:02Even when we look at the procurements from now on, time is going to be an essential element.
05:07And we have seen that in many other countries that it is not just about the budget or the capacity
05:13or even the strategic partnerships between countries, but it has increasingly become a conversation that looks at the time element more.
05:22Because obviously we feel the risk more present than we have done before Russia has started this unprovoked aggression towards Ukraine.
05:31You also met with the US Secretary of State, Marco Rubio, just recently.
05:36On Ukraine, what was your message to him and his administration?
05:41We have talked about our common ambition to help to have a peace deal in Ukraine as well, but also about our reluctance in terms of what we see coming from Russia.
05:54We do not see the proper action gestures or decisions in that direction.
05:59That is why we are having a continuous conversation on the increase of pressure.
06:04We agree in Romania, and I have mentioned this to Secretary of State Marco Rubio as well, that the ambition that President Trump has put forward,
06:12the request actually to members of the European Union to cut off from energy sources from Russia that generate profit that then is used to fund the war, is the proper decision.
06:24Romania has taken that decision for a while now.
06:26Some of the other countries in the region, though, are not aligned with you on this.
06:31They want to continue buying Russian gas.
06:34Yes.
06:35Do you think President Trump can put pressure on them to change their minds?
06:40Well, I think President Trump has shown that he is willing to use the power of the United States and the power of his messages to create pressure where he considers that is the case.
06:51I also think that what is needed is to have alternatives in the sense that it is needed in our continent to have energy sources that are clean, that are reliable, and that are at the right pricing to allow for that decoupling to happen.
07:09We have seen, for example, energy be used as a war weapon by Russia towards Moldova, for example, and it has been very important that together with Moldova and Ukraine, with help from the European Commission, we have managed to mitigate that very fast.
07:24We will come on to the issue of Moldova in just a bit.
07:27But you mentioned earlier on these societal threats in Romania and over the past year, especially since that presidential runoff was cancelled back in December, there has been a lot of scrutiny on democracy in Romania.
07:40How are you recovering from this?
07:42How are you restoring trust not only in public institutions but also in Romania's pro-Western path?
07:49So Romania has always had a pro-Western path, a pro-European path for many years now, and this has always been clear by every Eurobarometer, every research that has been done.
08:00In the same time, we have seen our elections being threatened by foreign interference and by instruments that do not align with the principle of democracy and democratic options and votes.
08:13So, some of the things that have happened since then is that our president, Nikos Ordan, has presented the full report of the information that were gathered by the Romanian institution at that point, and he presented that report to the European leaders, but he also decided to make that public.
08:30They will continue to share the resources that they have and the lessons learned.
08:34And this is important because those threats do not disappear.
08:38Even if we have one in Romania, in Moldova, the pro-European path has won spectacularly, I would say.
08:45We believe and we expect that the interferences will continue in the sense that we see the same type of intentions in terms of malign narratives.
08:55So, it is very important that we defend ourselves, not just at the country level, but at the European Union level, and that we support countries that want to join the European Union in the same process.
09:07You mentioned Moldova, I do want to ask you, and you mentioned the spectacular, you said, victory for Maya Sandor, the president's pro-EU past party.
09:15Now, there is a sense of frustration in some countries that the EU accession process is not going quick enough.
09:21Is it time to decouple Moldova's bid from Ukraine, which is being blocked by Viktor Orban and Hungary?
09:27It's time to de-block Ukraine as well. I think that is very important now.
09:32Now, we need to focus on the merit-based approach, which practically essentially means that each country by its own merit needs to be recognized.
09:41And in that case, Moldova, but Ukraine as well, are way more ahead than where the European Union collectively acknowledges it,
09:49in the sense where you need to have not just cluster one open, but the rest of the clusters as well can be open.
09:55And we need to not forget about the Western Balkans. And why do I mean that?
09:59It's because I've met today Montenegro, Albania, they have done spectacular work, and this is also a momentum for them to...
10:07But if I may, it's a merit-based process, and you said it, but it's still being held back by political will of Viktor Orban,
10:13who wants to block Ukraine's accession. So shouldn't it be the case that for Moldova to be able to progress,
10:18that it needs to be decoupled from being coupled with Ukraine in this process?
10:22Well, I think what we need to do is to make sure also internally that we have the proper decision-making reforms.
10:29Because it is clearly not just the merit of Moldova, the merit of Ukraine, Albania, Montenegro, and so on, we can go on.
10:35But it is clearly a problem that we have for ourselves if the will of 26 countries is blocked irresponsibly just by one single vote.
10:45And we need to do the proper reforms, but also fully use the current frame that we have to move forward.
10:50So you agree with European Council President Kosh's proposal to change the rule, so that it's not unanimity, but a qualified majority, to open the next stage?
10:59We're going to have the Council soon, and the final decision is going to come of that.
11:03But yes, Romania thinks we need to move faster, and we need to make sure we do not block our common decisions.
11:09So you support changing from unanimity on this issue?
11:13We're going to have our president present at the Council with the position, but Romania's stance is very clear towards de-blocking both Moldova and Ukraine.
11:23And you would be willing to do that through changing the rules on unanimity?
11:27As I was saying, the president is going to be present at the Council, and the final decision is going to come out of that.
11:32But Romania's position so far is to make sure that we de-block both Moldova and Ukraine.
11:37And if that is not possible, we're having a conversation that is not separate from the conversation we're having with Ukraine.
11:44We need to have the acceptance, the approval and the support of everyone that is on board to be able to move further.
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