- 6 months ago
The big focus of this episode of India First is on the recent crackdown by Pakistani security forces on Tehreek-e-Labbaik (TLP) protesters in Muridke.
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00:00Good evening. Some of the images that I'm about to show you may be disturbing. We urge viewer
00:08discretion. These are some very shocking images that have come from Pakistan's Punjab province,
00:14from Mureed K to be precise. Mureed K, better known in India as the headquarters of Lashkar
00:21Aitaiva, a UN designated terrorist organization. But the images I'm about to show you are of the
00:28Pakistan armed forces, the security forces. They, as Pakistanis themselves say, are behaving like
00:35terrorists. An armored personal carrier. Just look at this image that I'm about to show you.
00:40An armored personal carrier runs over a crowd of Islamic protesters ahead of the Fajr namaz.
00:46So it's a pre-dawn namaz. Protesters have just assembled to read the morning namaz and that's
00:54when an armored personal carrier, it just comes and runs over there. Image number two,
00:59Pakistani security forces, they open indiscriminate fire on a crowd of religious protesters.
01:05Watch this. They just open fire. Indiscriminately, they fire at these protesters. Pre-dawn. All these
01:13protesters, they've gathered there for namaz in the morning. They've been protesting Pakistan's policy
01:18on Israel. But early morning, a religious group is shot at from multiple directions. Image number three,
01:27head of this religious organization. His name is Saad Rizvi. The organization is Tehrik-e-Labbik.
01:32He pleads with the Pakistani forces on a microphone. You can hear him on that microphone saying,
01:39stop shooting.
01:47This is how desperate he gets when he sees his followers being shot at and killed. He says,
01:52He's saying, you are Muslim. He's Muslim. Why should one Muslim be shooting at another Muslim?
02:04And yet, that massacre continues. Take a look.
02:21Massacre in مرید کے پاکستان.
02:24مرید کے میں خون کی ہولی کھیلی گئی ہے.
02:31میدانِ جنگ بن چکا ہے مرید کے پاک فورسز گن ڈاؤن ریلیجس پروٹیسٹرز
02:36اٹ نماز ٹائم.
02:39یہ جو گولیاں چڑ رہی تھے ناظرین یہ انہی اسی عوام کی ہیں.
02:41یہ جو بندوقیں ہیں یہ اسی عوام کی ہیں.
02:44یہ جو ہمارے اوفیشلز تھے ناظرین یہ جو اس مہینے کی تنخواہ لیں گے
02:47یہ اسی عوام کی تنخواہ لیں گے.
02:49ہم اپنے لوگوں کو کون گولیاں مار رہے ہیں.
02:52Saad Rizvi pleads, yet police opens fire.
03:12Park Media gagged, mass murder in Lahore is the allegation.
03:22Pakistan's state terror is our top focus on India first.
03:45And as you heard that Pakistani journalist, none of this is making to media channels in Pakistan.
03:50There is a ban on Pakistan showing this massacre of this Islamic religious organization's followers, Tehrik-e-Labbeq.
04:00Now, Tehrik-e-Labbeq is opposing Pakistan's sajda to Israel.
04:04Pakistani television channels, incidentally, were showing US President Donald Trump live at the Israeli parliament at the Knesset.
04:11Praising Israel's Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu defeating Hamas, defeating Hezbollah and Iran.
04:17Those are the words, or words to that effect, of the US President Donald Trump.
04:21And this is live on Pakistani television.
04:24Pakistan does not even recognize Israel.
04:26But the most brutal oppression and operation in Pakistan's Punjab province, in Mureedke, in Lahore, was not being shown on Pakistani television.
04:39And all of this is commentary on Pakistan's social media.
04:41We get you that story.
04:42Also coming up at 8.30 tonight, it's being described as thermonuclear boot polish at Sharm al-Sheikh.
04:50Pakistan is a nuclear weapons state, but the Prime Minister of that nuclear weapons state, also known as boot polish,
04:57for serving the interests of Pakistani generals, was summoned to Sharm al-Sheikh to praise US President Donald Trump on the world stage.
05:05In fact, newspaper editorials in Pakistan are saying, is flattery Pakistan's new foreign policy?
05:12And did Prime Minister Narendra Modi do the right thing by staying away and sending a Minister of State?
05:18We get you more on that story.
05:20I'm Gaurav Savant.
05:21As always, let's get started with the headlines on India First.
05:25Bengal police rules out gang rape charges in the Durgaapur case, cites survivor's statement and physical evidence.
05:37Survivor claims after forced penetration accused threatened to call more men if she shouted or complained.
05:44Big twist in Haryana Top Cop's suicide case.
05:53The policeman investigating graft charges against the slain cop Puran Kumar dies by suicide in Rohtak.
05:59Suicide note says Puran Kumar was exploiting his caste.
06:04Mahagat Bandhan's seat-sharing talks hit a roadblock once again.
06:14Tussle continues between the Congress and the RJD over three seats.
06:18Allies CPIML withdraws list of 18 candidates.
06:21Ahead of Diwali, Delhi's air quality deteriorates AQI of 211 recorded in the national capital.
06:34Central pollution body imposes Grap 1 measures in the national capital region.
06:40Top industrialist versus Sindhu Serkara over Brand Bengaluru, Kiran Bajundar Shaw slams poor infrastructure.
06:52Deputy Chief Minister D.K. Shriftumar hits out, says Bengaluru needs collective effort, not constant criticism.
06:59Images coming out of Pakistan's Mureedke, the Punjab province in Pakistan are horrifying.
07:13Thousands of members and supporters of an Islamic organization called Tehrike Labbeq had taken to the streets to protest Pakistan's policy on Israel and Gaza.
07:23They were insisting they will go to Islamabad and protest outside the U.S. embassy.
07:29But they were confined to areas in and around Lahore.
07:33And this is where clashes broke out and Pakistani forces now stand accused of opening indiscriminate fire
07:40and killing a number of protesters just before the pre-dawn Fajr namaz.
07:47Some of the images we are about to show you are horrifying.
07:50We urge viewer discretion.
07:52An armored personal carrier, for example, runs through the crowd.
07:55In another video, the leader of Tehrike Labbeq, Saad Rizvi, is heard pleading with the security forces to stop firing at fellow Muslims.
08:05And yet, apparently, even he was shot at repeatedly and injured.
08:11Is he dead or alive?
08:13There is no clarity because no official information comes out of Pakistan on this issue.
08:19Their media is banned from covering this.
08:25Pakistan is collapsing, toned apart by its own state machinery.
08:44As the army tightens its grip, the country's streets are soaked in blood.
08:51In Punjab, Mureed K. at the behest of army chief Asif Munir, provincial police opened fire on protesters of the tariq-e-labaiq Pakistan.
09:14A video of TLP chief Saad Rizvi has now surfaced.
09:23His desperate plea asking Pakistani forces to pull back.
09:26Despite the appeal, shots were fired, allegedly aimed at Rizvi himself and his brother.
09:52He was fired, he was fired.
10:22claims that over 500 of its workers have been killed in cold blood.
10:52The government is silent and the media has been ordered to stay silent as well.
10:57The orders, insiders say, come straight from Asim Munir, determined to crush what he calls
11:11a religious insurgency.
11:13But what Pakistan calls law and order today looks like state-sponsored carnage.
11:22And as bodies piled up in Muretke, the Pakistani Prime Minister was far away, celebrating the
11:27Gaza peace deal in Egypt's Sharm el-Sheikh.
11:30Back home, the truth was being buried, journalists silenced, news channels gagged.
11:35But some, like Hamid Meir, dead question.
11:39Yeah.
11:40I am appearing to take command.
12:09Has Shahbaz Sharif lost all control of Pakistan?
12:13Bureau Report, India Today.
12:39One Muslim should not fire at another Muslim, and yet, they just kept firing him desperately.
12:43Moments later, there's another video that shows Shah Rizvi just collapsed.
12:48Apparently, shot at, shot dead or alive, we still do not know.
12:53Death toll? Officially, some reports seem to indicate, 10 dead Tehrik El Labbek protesters say they've counted more than 200 bodies.
13:01We still do not know, because you heard Pakistani journalists say they are banned from covering it.
13:06Officially, the government isn't making a point on this, isn't clarifying on this.
13:10But, is this an inflection point for Asim Munir's hybrid regime in Pakistan?
13:16Joining me on India first is Lefton General Raj Shukla, he's former army commander and a commentator on strategic affairs.
13:22Ambassador Rajiv Dogra, he's served extensively in Pakistan, was council general in Karachi, was ambassador to Italy.
13:29He's written multiple books on Pakistan, including The Durant Curse.
13:32Taha Siddiqui is a journalist and columnist from Pakistan, but currently in exile in Paris.
13:38And Sandeep Unnithan is a senior journalist and analyst with me on this broadcast.
13:42General Shukla, Pakistan army gets away with murder.
13:45It opens indiscriminate fire, whether it's Khaybar, Pakhtoongkwar, Balochistan and even Pakistan-occupied Jammu and Kashmir.
13:51But can the Pakistani security forces get away by shooting and killing people in Pakistan's Punjab province?
13:58What do you make of these developments, sir?
14:06General Shukla?
14:07Give me a moment as we re-establish this link with General Raj Shukla.
14:13Ambassador Dogra, Tehrik al-Labbaik was seen as an instrument of Pakistan's deep state.
14:18You heard Saad Rizvi, he's literally pleading for Allah's state, stop firing.
14:23And yet the firing continues.
14:25And then there's total media, blackout in mainstream Pakistani media.
14:29What do you make of these developments?
14:31Well, a lot of guesswork has to go into it.
14:35Because as you said, there's a total blackout.
14:38But the nervous reaction, both by the army soldiers who have been caught on camera pleading that this kind of gunfire on the citizens should not go on, as well as some reports which are coming out of Pakistan indicate that it was a very, very close call for the army.
15:00What I'm particularly wanting to draw attention to is the contrast between the previous army chief, General Bajwa, and the present army chief in handling the same organization's protests.
15:13Tehrik al-Labbaik's protest happened during General Bajwa's time also.
15:18But he then did not resort to wholesale firing and firing directly at protesters.
15:24Instead, he sent a senior general along with a huge bundle of currency notes.
15:29Yes.
15:30And eventually, as an offering, that please withdraw your protest and that work.
15:34This time, none of that has happened.
15:36They didn't reach out to the protesters.
15:39They didn't listen to their demands or their complaints.
15:42In fact, they didn't even listen to a very, very powerful chief of Tehrik al-Labbaik, who, as you said, has been shot at and no one knows in what condition he is.
15:56So, Pakistan army is religious so long as it suits us to have an agenda against India.
16:04But Pakistan army has no respect for religion when it comes to crushing their own protests within Pakistan.
16:11And that means Pakistan's Punjab province, you know, not even in KPK or Balochistan or Sindh or POJK, but Taha, Pakistan government is still not coming clean.
16:23TLP workers have been, you know, have been on social media.
16:27Some handles say 200 dead.
16:29Some handles say 500 dead.
16:31Even the Pakistan army cannot hide so many deaths.
16:34And that too in Punjab province.
16:36And what are the security implications of what has just happened in Pakistan?
16:40Well, I think, you know, the Pakistani military is known to sort of hide facts.
16:48We know that we've seen this sort of similar kind of military operations or police or law enforcement operations in other parts of the country.
16:57We know in Balochistan, similar sort of, you know, operations happen that nobody has access to, nobody has information to.
17:04You know, there's like a massacre going on in Balochistan in a similar way in Khaibar Pakhtun Hall.
17:10So and now we're seeing that happening in Punjab also.
17:13And I think, you know, what this really shows is that these false lines that are in Pakistan, you know, they are they're basically becoming more and more apparent.
17:22And the rule that is by the rule of, you know, General Asim Munir, who is the de facto head of the country, even though he's the army chief, he his rule over the country is, you know, it's weakening.
17:35And these are signs of those false lines that are coming out and that that weakening where we're seeing that, you know, there are false lines happening everywhere.
17:43And I think, you know, right now what we're getting the information from the ground is that there were people of the TLP, Pakistan, which went to negotiate sort of terms of the end of this operation.
17:58And they even disappeared. We don't know where those people went.
18:02We do not know right now where Saad Rizvi is.
18:05And there's a lot of, you know, information blackout and the Punjab government is not being forthcoming.
18:11The police is not being forthcoming.
18:13So so there is no clue as to what really went on.
18:17But, yes, we have seen footages of people, you know, being killed, dead bodies lying all over Mureed K.
18:25And the TLP is now vowing for another sort of, you know, onslaught.
18:30So in the coming days, we might see this again flaring up because this is not the this is not an end because they did a clearing operation where they used force.
18:39But there were no negotiations done.
18:41There was no sort of, you know, a conclusion achieved.
18:45And there is no this is not a peaceful resolution that we're coming to.
18:50So this is going to happen again. And we've seen this repeated several times in the past.
18:55In fact, there were some reports that seem to indicate that, you know, as you mentioned, the negotiating party, it just disappeared.
19:02Nobody knows where they are. Nobody knows where Saad Rizvi is. Nobody knows Asad Rizvi, his brother is.
19:08Whether they are shot at or shot dead, both of them, that container was set on fire.
19:12And you're looking at those images of the container set on fire.
19:14You spoke of media blackout. Before I come to Sandeep Punithan in just a moment.
19:18I want you to listen in to the Pakistani journalist Hamid Meir, where he exposes the hypocrisy and the double standards of the government that they don't recognize a country like Israel.
19:28But the Israeli TV was live across Pakistani channels and no mention of this massacre that was taking place in Lahore and in Mureed K.
19:38We can listen in to Hamid Meir.
20:04They were trying to get out of the war, and then there was a big crackdown which was a loss on both sides.
20:12Sandeep, you've been looking at social media, open source information and intelligence, talking to people and analysts,
20:21what is the bigger picture that emerges of what's happening in Pakistan and across the country if you look at the bigger picture,
20:28protests in Pakistan occupied Jammu and Kashmir, this war that's happening, the day-long war with Afghanistan,
20:35and we'll come to that in just a moment, but trouble in Balochistan, trouble in Sindh earlier,
20:40but this fire in the heart of Pakistan, this would virtually be a heart attack for Pakistan.
20:46Absolutely, Gaurav, this is a fire in the heart of Pakistan in Punjab province, which pretty much runs Pakistan for the last several decades.
20:57And you know the thing with what's unfolding right now with the Tariq-e-Labaiq Pakistan,
21:02it's surprising what's going on over here because the Labaiq is seen as one of those manageable proxies of the Pakistan Army,
21:09which they roll out every now and then to put the PTI on the defensive or the PMLN on the defensive.
21:18So this is an instrument of the state. What went wrong this time around?
21:21Is it what we are seeing playing out on the screens right now?
21:25Is this what General Asim Munir once said in March, if you remember the hard state?
21:30He kept repeating this thing that Pakistan is now going to be a hard state.
21:33Is this the hard state that he spoke of where the PAK military is turning on its proxies?
21:38And you know, given the kind of backlash that you can expect from this, Gaurav, I think this is what we are looking at right now is Pakistan's Lal Masjid moment.
21:48In 2007, when the PAK military under General Musharraf stormed the Lal Masjid, it led to the birth of the Tariq-e-Taliban Pakistan, the TTP.
21:58And today, 2025, the scenario is completely different. Pakistan is facing a poly-crisis.
22:04It's looking at economic meltdown. It's got two hostile neighbors.
22:08It's got Afghanistan on its western flanks. It's got a hostile India on its eastern flanks.
22:14It's got raging insurgencies in Khyber Pakhtunkwa, in Baluchistan.
22:18And now to add to that, you have this fire in the middle of, you know, heartland Punjab.
22:23This is a crisis entirely of Pakistan's making Gaurav.
22:28Oh, indeed.
22:29Over the last couple of months, Field Marshal Munir has assiduously worked to set his country on fire.
22:35And what you're seeing here is the result of that.
22:38So, Field Marshal Asim Munir, you're saying he's actually set his country on fire to consolidate power, General Shukla.
22:44Is that also your assessment?
22:46Because that Pehelgaam terror attack was clearly for him to consolidate power and become the Field Marshal.
22:52Is this the current crisis that you see in Pakistan's Punjab province?
22:57His offering to Donald Trump that whatever problems I may face within,
23:02Asim Munir is doing a sajda to Donald Trump saying I'll get rid of the radical elements in my country,
23:08even if it is Pakistan's Punjab province, but American interests will be protected.
23:13You know, that elevation of Asim Munir post-op Sindhu always appeared some kind of, you know, an artificial construct to me.
23:25And Pakistan now is characteristically back on the brink.
23:29I think it's worse than a Lal Masjid moment.
23:32To me, it seems that Pakistan is losing strategic balance.
23:35I mean, for the reasons that Sandeep pointed out, nothing is right.
23:39And in the midst of all this, you have these two characters playing out the Trump pantomime.
23:45One in, what is that place?
23:48Sharm al-Sheikh.
23:49Sharm al-Sheikh.
23:50I mean, we saw the sheer obsequiousness of Shahbaz Sharif yesterday,
23:56and you are endorsing a deal in distant Gaza when Punjab is burning.
24:03I mean, what worse than that?
24:06And Asim Munir, I mean, look at this, what shall we say, the juvenile nature of the Pakistani state,
24:12where you thought that, you know, selling rare earths, doing that crypto stuff,
24:17can take care of these basic problems at home.
24:20And what really surprises me, it was Sandeep is saying that this time it is the Labaic.
24:25The Labaic was always the arm of the PATH military.
24:30So there is something seriously, you know, afoot there.
24:33And we see a complete absence of statecraft.
24:37And when you shut down internet, you shut down mobiles and look at the mobilization of the Labaic and all.
24:43So that is the second serious point to worry.
24:46And this other move of, you know, Mutakhi visiting India eight days long,
24:53the visit to Dioband and all that, that must have the Pakistanis seriously worried.
24:58And the, I mean, the worst thing if I'm a Pakistani is this, that what you once called your strategic depth,
25:06you've turned it into a hostile backyard.
25:08So if I'm a young, a young and aspirational Pakistani citizen, I mean, what do I have to look forward to?
25:15There is utter despair, broken politics, bankrupt economy.
25:20Militarily we were, you were almost vanquished on the 10th of May.
25:24Every right thinking Pakistani knows.
25:26And you are doing this pantomime abroad when your country is on fire.
25:30So that's why I conclude by saying that Pakistan seems to be losing strategic balance.
25:35Yes, yes. Ambassador Dogra, is that also your assessment that this is worse than the 2007 Lal Masjid moment for Pakistan?
25:43And, you know, it has multiple fires on all flanks, tension with India at the LOC.
25:50There's tension with Afghanistan on the Durand line.
25:53You know that better than most, how bad the situation in Afghanistan is and trouble in Pakistan's Punjab province.
26:00Well, Gaurav, one answer to your question is that Pakistan has had multiple crises worse than Lal Masjid crisis.
26:10I am not only referring to 1971.
26:13I'm also referring to the 9-11 when the American president at that time said he'll bomb Pakistan into Stone Age.
26:22But Pakistan has survived it all.
26:25It is quite possible that it may scrape through the present crisis.
26:30But the big difference from the big crisis that I've outlined is that this time the crisis is from within.
26:37The crisis is from Balochistan.
26:39The crisis is from KPK.
26:42The crisis is from Punjab now, which should be the most worrisome.
26:48They seem to have got a handle on it at the moment.
26:51But how long will that pressure cooker stay in place?
26:55That remains to be seen.
26:57The other thing which has not been talked about much, and I think you might focus on it later in the program,
27:03is the Afghan beating that was given to the Pakistani army.
27:09In fact, I'm just coming to that in a moment.
27:12The moment I'm through with Punjab, I'm coming to celebrations in Afghanistan,
27:16and the massive celebrations that are taking place.
27:18But Taha, Pakistan does not recognize Israel,
27:21but Pakistani media was showing live coverage of the Israeli kereset of the parliament
27:26at a time when TLP was opposing this deal.
27:29What does this indicate?
27:30What is happening within Pakistan?
27:32Is TLP or the Tehrik El Abbek no longer a stooge of the Pakistan army?
27:38Is the Pakistan army turning against the Tehrik El Abbek?
27:41What's happening?
27:43Well, Gaurav, I think, you know, Pakistan does that.
27:47Pakistan military establishment has done that in the past,
27:50that it uses these Islamists for its own strategic purposes.
27:55We've seen that the Tehrik El Abbek Pakistan was used in the past to pressure civilian politicians,
28:00including, you know, the Sharif government back in the last government when it happened in 2017.
28:05Yes.
28:06That's when, you know, the TLP rose to prominence in the Faizabad, Dharna,
28:10where earlier it was mentioned also that the general came and gave money to these TLP protesters.
28:15And so at that time, they were used against, you know,
28:19because General Bajwa wanted some favors from the government, so they used the TLP.
28:23And then they discarded them, then they reincarnated them.
28:26And so this is like a, you know, repeat circle that we continue to see.
28:31The very fact that, you know, the TLP is not getting any coverage now,
28:35but was getting coverage earlier, like, you know, in the past when TLP did similar sort of protests
28:40and came out and showed its street power.
28:43It's because, from what I know, and when I talk to journalists in Pakistan who work there,
28:48who are colleagues of mine from, you know, from the time I worked with them, they tell me that the ISPR,
28:53which is the official media wing of the military, micromanages the media to the extent that, you know,
28:59there are direct phone calls that come to the news ticker desk,
29:03there are direct phone calls that come to the newsrooms,
29:06and which say that what news you should run, what news you should not run.
29:10And so the media has managed in this way, and that is what we're seeing.
29:14So right now the Pakistani interest or the Pakistani military's interest is to show this, you know,
29:19a speech of President Trump because they are, you know, as you also mentioned,
29:25there's this whole sort of, you know, flattery going on with the President Trump
29:28because they're expecting some kind of a reward or return from it.
29:31So they are completely bowing down to the American policy and American sort of, you know, leadership.
29:37And at the same time, local issues, local, you know, serious issues like when we see Punjab burning,
29:43when we see, you know, this happening on the streets of Punjab and it's not being shown,
29:48this is complete micromanagement by the military media wing.
29:52Stay with me. Let me now shift focus to what's happening on the AFPAC border in General Shukla,
29:57the defeat of the Pakistan army in just 24 hours.
30:02If 58 of their soldiers were killed, 27 of their posts were overrun.
30:06They had several Pakistani soldiers that had been taken prisoners of war by Afghanistan.
30:11Multiple coffins were returned, some even today.
30:15What does that indicate a reality check for a nuclear weapons state that cannot even fight the Taliban army?
30:22You know, the Pakistani strategic establishment seems to have lost it.
30:28They are clearly underestimating the power of the TTA, the TTP and possibly the LABEK.
30:37We know the trouble that is going on in KP with the change of the resignation of the chief minister.
30:43If Imran is behind it, he's been cautioning the Pakistanis against what they did to these Afghan refugees.
30:49You see, these Pashtuni bonds are very strong. They override all nationalistic instincts.
30:54So what Pakistani statecraft is doing surprises me beyond measure.
31:00And if you are falling into some kind of Trump trap to help him get pogrom, then you are mad.
31:09You don't know what the Afghanis can do.
31:11I think the foreign minister is still here. I was at that event in VIF where in Urdu he made it very clear.
31:19He said, Joe Afghanistan, he started off with the British and the Russians and all that.
31:24He said, we've given it back to them in great measure.
31:28So this sudden, you know, this air strikes on Kabul.
31:31You see what is happening to Pakistan? I think clearly is this.
31:34It is trying to punch greatly above its strategic weight in its aspiration to match India.
31:40So the good metaphor, you know, somebody said, Pakistan is a bumblebee.
31:45By all the laws of aerodynamics, it should not only… it should… it can barely fly.
31:50It is also trying to gather honey. Afghanistan, Kabul, West Asia.
31:56And look at the size of your economy.
31:59So that's why I'm saying strategic overreach leading to loss of strategic balance.
32:04The Pakistani statecraft seems to have lost it.
32:07Right now, General Shukla, are of celebrations that are going off across Afghanistan.
32:13You know, there are trousers of Pakistan Army in Ambassador Dogra.
32:171971, you had 93,000 Pakistani Army trousers that had been taken down.
32:24Symbolically, those trousers are being put up on various squares across Afghanistan today in Kabul.
32:31And that's huge humiliation for the Pakistan Army.
32:35One of their captured soldiers was crying.
32:37Several coffins have been returned.
32:39Several posts have been overrun.
32:41Sir, will the Pashtun movement on either side of the Durand Line gather steam in your appreciation?
32:48Or is that unlikely?
32:50Well, that's my hope.
32:52And that is why I wrote that book.
32:54And the facts as they are on the ground show that there is resentment on both sides of the Durand Line because people are not very happy in Pakistan with Pakistan.
33:08There is nationalism amongst Pakhtuns, as the frontier Gandhi used to call them.
33:15So that is the bonding glue.
33:18Secondly, and I think this is, we are not appreciating what happened a couple of days back between Pakistan and Afghanistan sufficiently enough.
33:27Because after operations endured, this is the second beating that Pakistani Army has scored.
33:34So the earlier skirmishes between Pakistan and Afghanistan resulted in a very, very short duration fight where Pakistan came up the winner or the Trumps.
33:46But this time, there is no doubt that Afghanistan has given them a really, really hard knock.
33:53So Pakistan Army's morale would not be very high.
33:57And the situation, which I keep coming back to repeatedly, would be worrisome for Pakistan Army because it cannot then go around handling multiple crisis.
34:10Yes.
34:11The worry for us should be whether in such a situation, Pakistan would like to divert the internal attention by having a terrorist strike somewhere in India.
34:20They did this during Operation Sindhu, which was exactly the purpose.
34:24And they got the national feeling sky high.
34:27So will they do it again this time?
34:30Or will they try and attempt for a major terror attack?
34:33That remains to be seen.
34:34And that should be our worry.
34:36But as far as Pakistan…
34:37It shouldn't that be Pakistan's worry, especially after 11 of their air bases were taken down.
34:41Six of their radar stations were taken down.
34:43Nine of their terror camps were taken down.
34:45You know, each time India has escalated and this time perhaps General Shukla, there could be an escalation from the Afghanistan side.
34:51There could be something that could simmer in Khaybar Pakhtunkwa.
34:55Something could happen in Balochistan.
34:57And the Tehrik El Abbek, will they get united?
34:59Or in such a situation, they will say this is an army that sides with Israel and America?
35:04I agree with Ambassador Dogra.
35:08We should be on the watch.
35:10Two weeks back, there were some indications that Pakistan was up to some tricks of this kind.
35:15And you saw these statements of the army chief.
35:17In fact, two terrorists were killed in Kupwara, LC just this morning.
35:20I am suggesting something bigger.
35:22So we should be prepared for that.
35:24Asim Munir has warned publicly that the next attacks could be from the east.
35:29I have been talking for very long about a new national security reality developing along our eastern horizon.
35:35And therefore, I wish to make one connected point, which I wish to throw up.
35:39See, if you go back to the Cargill Review Committee, I recall Mr. Subramanyam, who was a real forward-looking strategic visionary.
35:47We spoke of the DIA and the theater commands in sync with the CDS for the armed forces to develop an external orientation.
35:56Given the great troubles which are militarily led in Nepal, Bangladesh, Pakistan, Afghanistan.
36:02Now is the time to, you know, go ahead with this.
36:05Theater commands is not about air power.
36:07It is also about a quasi-diplomatic visage connected with the DIA.
36:12Our armed forces need to develop an external orientation.
36:16Given the grave, shall I say, militarily led instabilities in our neighborhood.
36:22What's happening in Myanmar, Bangladesh, Rami Desai has been writing greatly about it.
36:28It's time to act on that dimension.
36:31Very interesting.
36:32You should point that.
36:33But if I come back to that Afghanistan-Pakistan border, Sandeep.
36:36Afghanistan has denied a visa to Pakistan's DGISI and national security advisor and to Pakistan's defense minister,
36:43saying either you come to us with proof or don't waste our time, point one, point two.
36:49They're also telling Pakistan Army, the skies may be yours, but the land belongs to us and we can strike deeper.
36:56This is perhaps the offensive defense that would put the fear of God in the Pakistan Army along KPK.
37:04Absolutely, Gaurav.
37:05And you know, I think the Pakistan military is bitten off more than it can chew this time around.
37:10You know, with what I call the Tetra crisis.
37:14You have a hostile India on one side, you have a hostile Afghanistan and of course these raging insurgencies within the country.
37:20And they've been accusing the Afghan Taliban, without evidence of course that the, you know, the Tariq-e-Taliban Pakistan operates from sanctuaries within Afghanistan.
37:31And of course, Afghanistan accuses Pakistan, especially the ISI, of fomenting terror inside Pakistan with the ISKP.
37:40Now, this is a tutu-mehmeh kind of situation along the Durand Line.
37:44And you know, Gaurav, the Durand Line is 2,600 kilometers long.
37:49It's longer than the distance between New Delhi and Bengaluru.
37:53That's how long this line is.
37:55And what Pakistan has done with all its actions over the last couple of days, it's literally lit the Durand Line on fire.
38:01There's fighting even today in one of the districts near Kandahar.
38:05And you know, again, posts have been overrun.
38:08They've been hit.
38:09The Afghans are spoiling for a fight, Gaurav.
38:11They've, you know, been sitting quiet for four years.
38:14But I think this kind of build up that Pakistan has been throwing people back at them, the Afghans have been forcibly repatriated.
38:22That's sparked off a lot of discontentment within Afghanistan.
38:25And I think the Taliban of all people are now accusing Pakistan of harboring terrorists and striking at Afghanistan.
38:31And very quickly, Gaurav, you know, what Pakistan seems to be in right now is what I see a certain pattern over the last 60 years.
38:39You know, every time it embarks on an external adventure, you know, the generals go on to an adventure like 65 or 71 or 99.
38:47Okay.
38:48And in 2025, it has grave internal repercussions.
38:52Yes.
38:53Ayub is outed in 65.
38:54In 71, they lost half their country.
38:56In 99, there's a civil-military collapse over there.
38:59And 2025, you just painted a picture for our viewers what's going on inside Pakistan.
39:04Aasem Munir is riding a tiger.
39:06And there's only one way that you end up when you're riding that tiger.
39:10And we'll be tracking that story very, very closely.
39:12To all my guests, many thanks for joining me.
39:14There's another very interesting aspect that we will be discussing.
39:17Pakistan is a nuclear weapons state.
39:19But boot polish of US President Donald Trump by a Prime Minister of that thermonuclear boot polish.
39:27You know, Shabash Sharif, that's what he's called in his own country.
39:30So that thermonuclear boot polish comes up.
39:32When flattery becomes foreign policy, this headline in a Pakistani newspaper aptly sums up Pakistan's Prime Minister Shabash Sharif recommending US President Donald Trump for a Nobel Prize for a second time.
39:45Allegedly, for stopping the Eighth War.
39:48Now, the 20-point peace plan of US President Donald Trump, endorsed by more than 30 world leaders at Sharm al-Sheikh in Egypt, is being described by many as a cringe show of strength.
40:01Prime Minister Narendra Modi was also invited, both by US President Donald Trump and Egyptian President al-Sisi.
40:08But he chose to stay away.
40:10There was a prior commitment, the state visit of the Mongolian President to India.
40:15There are some analysts who say it was a very wise decision by Prime Minister Narendra Modi not to be a part of that line-up at Sharm al-Sheikh.
40:25We get you more in this report.
40:27In Egypt's Sharm al-Sheikh, a so-called peace summit turned into full-blown Trump Darbar.
40:48From awkward handshakes to public praise contest, Trump basked in the spotlight.
41:00Regards, where are you?
41:03There you go, thank you very much.
41:06Do you wanna say what you said?
41:09The highlight, Trump asked Pakistani Prime Minister Shabazz Sharif to repeat what was discussed earlier in private.
41:16Thank you very much.
41:18Do you wanna say what you said to me the other day?
41:20Come, would you like to say what you said to me?
41:24And Sharif, who was only eager to impress the American president, once again nominated Trump for the Nobel Peace Prize.
41:32Italian Prime Minister Giorgia Meloni was seen covering her mouth in disbelief while Trump smirked and nodded.
41:39What is outstanding, genuine and most wonderful candidate for Peace Prize because he has brought not only peace in South Asia, saved millions of people.
41:57And then Trump praised Pakistan's Army Chief Aasem Munir, who was not even present, even as Sharif stood grinning behind him.
42:05I'm not going to keep you standing for a while. These are great leaders.
42:07It was not only the awkward moment. Trump and French President Emmanuel Macron in what can only be described as a handshake arm wrestle, a bizarre 38-second tug-of-war on the red carpet.
42:25Thank you very much, Emmanuel. I would imagine Emmanuel standing someplace behind me.
42:30And to make it worse, as Trump looked around for him on stage, Macron stayed seated in the audience, refusing to join the parade.
42:40Trump invited UK Prime Minister KS Sharma to the podium to shake his hand and then sent him back without letting him say anything.
42:4820-minute notice and I think it's fantastic.
42:51About a woman, that's the end of your political career, but I'll take my chances.
42:54With the Italian Prime Minister, Georgia, Melanie Trump calls her beautiful on global stage and then, as an afterthought, seeks permission.
43:04Melanie smiles politely, fold her hands in a namaste.
43:07We have a woman, a young woman who's, I'm not allowed to say it because usually it's the end of your political career if you say it.
43:17She's a beautiful young woman.
43:18And now, if you use the word beautiful in the United States about a woman, that's the end of your political career, but I'll take my chances.
43:26Where is she? There she is.
43:27You don't mind being called beautiful.
43:30Trump also mistakenly addressed Canadian Prime Minister Mark Carney as president.
43:34Carney joked, thanking Trump for the upgrade.
43:37And then the ghost handshake.
43:42As Egyptian host, Abdel Fattah al-Sisi reached out, Trump turned away mid-camera flash, leaving the Egyptian president hanging.
43:52He also discussed family business at the formal event.
43:56Caught on a hot mic, Indonesia's president asking Trump for a meeting with his son.
44:01India is a great country with a very good friend of mine at the top, and he's just done a fantastic job.
44:12And I think that Pakistan and India are going to live very nicely together.
44:19With back home, India quietly chose distance over drama.
44:23Prime Minister Narendra Modi skipped the Sharm al-Sheikh spectacle, sending Minister of State Kirti Vardhan Singh instead.
44:31And looking at the circus that followed, that may have been the wisest diplomatic move of all.
44:37From handshake wars to misplaced compliments, the Trump Darbar in Egypt had plenty of embarrassment in store for world leaders.
44:47Bureau Report, India Today.
44:49So what should one make of Pakistan Prime Minister, Shabha Sharif's thermonuclear flattery of Donald Trump and Sharm al-Sheikh?
45:01Donald Trump holding fort, and Prime Minister Narendra Modi choosing to stay away despite the invitation?
45:07A wise decision, or as some argue, an opportunity lost?
45:12Joining me on India first is Ambassador Kamal Sibbal, former Foreign Secretary of India,
45:17and Raymond Vikri Jr., Senior Associate and the Chair of the U.S.-India Policy Studies at the Center for Strategic and International Studies.
45:26Welcome, gentlemen.
45:27Ambassador Sibbal, what do you make of Shabha Sharif's virtual sajda to Donald Trump, his flattery, recommending Trump for a Nobel Prize for the second time?
45:38Well, actually, it was cringeworthy.
45:44He went just too far in his obsequiousness and his desire to flatter Trump, and he continued using all sorts of adjectives to praise him.
45:58Actually, either he is himself a fool or he thinks Trump is a fool.
46:03After all, the Nobel Peace Prize has already been given to the lady from Venezuela.
46:11Now, for him at this stage to think that he can gather brownie points by recommending Trump for the Nobel Peace Prize,
46:20which will only be decided next year, is actually playing a game because he wants to flatter Trump.
46:29But, you know, the astonishing thing is the snub, indirect snub that Trump administered to Shabha Sharif.
46:38I mean, he can't think of Shabha Sharif without thinking of his favorite field marshal, Munir, and he's not there.
46:46So he's clearly devaluing the position of the Pakistani prime minister and the civilian leadership of Pakistan by actually indirectly saying that he considers Haseem Munir to be the real force in Pakistan-U.S. relations for whatever reason.
47:05And this is the kind of humiliation, double humiliation, one that Shabha Sharif humiliates himself as the prime minister of Pakistan by laying it so thick that it is almost pathetic.
47:19It's so pathetic.
47:21And on top of that…
47:21Even Pakistani newspapers are saying that, you know, flatteries become their foreign policy.
47:26And it is, as you said, very cringeworthy.
47:30Raymond Vickery, you saw the whole show at Sharm al-Sheikh.
47:33Your reading of the optics and the essence.
47:36And would Trump have been flattered by this?
47:39Would he see through this?
47:40Or it works, both for Shabha Sharif and for Donald Trump?
47:45Well, thanks very much for having me.
47:47I think that you have to recognize, as our former governor in Virginia once said, who's a neurologist, that our president is a narcissistic maniac.
48:00And it's all about him.
48:03And that's the whole purpose of having a lineup and being able to call on people, humiliate them in some part.
48:12And then to have a person who will fall at his feet and lick the shoes and say wonderful, wonderful things about him.
48:25That's a very unfortunate aspect of the president, which we have, and the administration.
48:34But we have to look beyond these and see what we can do to build peace and prosperity in a very troubled world, which requires waging peace just like war.
48:48So these kinds of spectacles, while very disconcerting, make it very necessary for great democracies like India and the prime minister to step up and fill a leadership gap here so that we can have some semblance both of strategy and partnership for the principles which have kept the peace for some 80 years since World War II.
49:18I will give credit to President Trump for being involved, for getting apparently a ceasefire in exchange of hostages.
49:29That's better than just letting the killing go on, which has taken 70,000 Palestinians and Israelis as well.
49:39So, but that having been said, this is not the way to go about it.
49:45You need to be able to treat people with respect and not fawning.
49:49Oh, absolutely.
49:51But, you know, since you mentioned Prime Minister Narendra Modi, Ambassador Sybil, did Prime Minister Narendra Modi do the wise thing by staying away and sending Minister of State, Kirti Vardhan Singh, and not, you know, the external affairs minister, Dr. S. Jai Shankar, either?
50:07Your reading of the steps that India took.
50:10I think it was very wise because, you know, you just see what Trump said after praising Prime Minister Modi, he suddenly equated India and Pakistan, saying that India and Pakistan are going to get along very nicely.
50:25Now, I think the worst thing would have been if Prime Minister Modi had been on the stage, he would have pulled him and asked him to shake hands with Nawaz Singh and say something ridiculous like India and Pakistan have to get nicely together.
50:42I'm willing to mediate.
50:43I'm going to do this.
50:44I'm going to do that.
50:45I saved millions of people already, and I want to do more after this success in Sharm el-Sheikh.
50:51I can have another success.
50:53It's a long-festing problem.
50:55Now, if you were to say these things, which he's quite capable of saying, it will be a huge, huge, huge embarrassment for the Indian Prime Minister.
51:01I think dignity demanded that the Prime Minister stay away.
51:06In any case, even if he had gone, he couldn't compete with Nawaz Sharif with this kind of obsequiousness.
51:11With Nawaz Sharif, yes, sir.
51:13Because, and then the argument would have been that Nawaz Sharif has won brownie points over India because he flattered Trump,
51:21and Trump was exceedingly happy.
51:23But Prime Minister Modi stood aloof and missed the opportunity, as some people are saying.
51:28I think it was very well.
51:29Very interesting.
51:30The Prime Minister not to go.
51:31So you think it's a very wise decision.
51:34Mr. Vikri, your reading, would the US see India being represented by a Minister of State in this hall that was full of kings and heads of state and heads of government?
51:45How would this be viewed by the United States of America?
51:51Well, there's a difference between how it would be viewed by the United States of America and how it would be viewed by Donald Trump.
51:59I think the United States of America is very much invested in the dignity and the ability of India to act for itself.
52:13Well, Donald Trump is not that way at all.
52:18I think it was a wise thing, a wise move under the circumstances.
52:25But that having been said, I do think there's a leadership vacuum.
52:29And I think a great democracy like India has a role to play in building peace in the Middle East as well as South Asia.
52:40And I would think that the kinds of ties which India has with Israel, after all, Israel has been a major supplier of defense material to India, that India will want to play a more proactive role as a world leader in the Middle East, Ukraine, and across the world.
53:05India has the ability to be a great power, but it must, in that role, be willingness to step forward and provide some leadership.
53:17And I'm sure that's in the works.
53:19Okay, is that in the works, Ambassador Sybil?
53:22Would you see this, one, either as an opportunity lost or in the times to come, an opportunity for India to step up on the world stage, considering we're usually friends with both sides, whether it's Israel and Gaza or, you know, Palestine on one side or Russia and Ukraine on the other?
53:39Or should we just build our power till the time we're actually there?
53:43A few things. Firstly, the entire process was stage managed between Trump and Netanyahu.
53:50We had no role to play. We were not consulted. We didn't have to give any advice.
53:56Even Netanyahu didn't want us to get involved. So it was not our baby, if you like.
54:02Now, the Arab countries obviously have to be present there. Turkey has to be present there. It's a co-signatory for the deal.
54:13And the European countries had to be there because Europe doesn't want to be left out.
54:17It doesn't want to leave the global stage only to the Americans and be content with being ignored or being in the sidelines.
54:23And as you know, the French president and some other countries, they have actually announced their support for a two-state solution for an independent Palestinian state.
54:34So they had to be there to mark their interest.
54:36And don't forget that France has played a very major role after the First World War in terms of the drawing of the maps in this region.
54:46And Britain, of course, as you know, was the supporter of the creation of Israel in the first place.
54:53So they had to be there. We didn't have to be there.
54:56And if he had to be there, it would have been a competition between India and Pakistan.
55:01And Trump would have made that into a competition.
55:04I'm glad you said that. So it was a very wise decision that India did not cope.
55:09Look, if the prime minister was there on the stage, lined up behind the trumpet, does it look dignified for the Indian prime minister to be in this role?
55:18I don't think so.
55:20Absolutely. And I will let that be the last word on this part of the show.
55:24Ambassador Kaval Sibbal and Raymond Vickery Jr. for joining me here on this India Today special broadcast.
55:29Many thanks. We'll track the story closely.
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