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Lucy Letby: Murder or Mistake - Season 2
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07:00And this occurred in Lucy Letby's presence
07:06I did not choose my view after the trial
07:12I amended my report when giving evidence in the trial
07:18It wasn't until he was on the witness stand
07:23Despite it not appearing in any of his reports
07:25He suddenly said I think the baby also could have had air injected into a vein
07:30He just made it up as he went along
07:33The case in point
07:38In fact the greatest example of the case in point
07:42Is baby scene
07:44I just don't think it is important
07:48The jury were reminded by the lead prosecutor in his closing speech
07:53That Lucy Letby wasn't on duty on June the 12th
07:56Dr Evans was supported in court by at least seven medical experts
08:01But actually there's only one prosecution expert giving media interviews isn't there
08:05I'm sure the others have seen the way that Dr Evans has been treated online
08:14And the way his opinions have been ridiculed
08:17And have looked at that and thought
08:20I don't want to speak publicly for that reason
08:31Now let's find out for Mark exactly how this could impact what is going to happen next
08:39Mark, very good morning to you
08:40Morning, morning
08:42I made two announcements yesterday
08:44The first is that we're going back to the Criminal Cases Review Commission on new evidence from two neonatologists
08:50And you're absolutely right, Mike
08:52The families are just absolutely devastated that he's discussing their babies though in this public way
08:58Ben Myers, who was Lucy Letby's original barrister, has never given a media interview
09:06There are many things wrong with this case
09:09Mark McDonald's strategy is obviously, you know, very different
09:12I've spoken to other lawyers who say that that's not a strategy that they would adopt
09:17I'm not aware that Mark McDonald has won lots of miscarriage of justice cases
09:23By adopting this public media strategy
09:26I don't apologise for speaking out about this
09:31But don't mistake that for a lack of compassion
09:35For the parents that have lost their children
09:38I'm doing what I'm doing
09:41To make sure the general public know
09:44That there is a major problem in this case
09:48I'm not doing it because I want to be on telly
09:52It's not about me
09:54It's never about me
09:56It's about a woman who's serving life in prison
09:59There are a lot of very nasty comments online
10:13From people that just think it's a TV drama
10:18And forget that it actually affects real people
10:21And affects their lives
10:23I mean, it's bad enough for us
10:26But at least we've still got him
10:28The parents that have lost their children
10:30If it triggers such a visceral reaction in me
10:35I can't even begin to imagine how they must feel
10:38The police, when I told them about the box
10:45Said that it was something that had been brought up quite a lot
10:50In the children that they'd been investigated
10:51And it was definitely a repeated pattern
10:56The police told us that we were one of 17 others
11:02Being investigated at that time
11:04And that the main trigger for the investigation
11:07Was children who had been resuscitated
11:10And where doctors didn't really understand what was wrong
11:15The police told us that there wasn't enough evidence
11:21To take it to court at the time
11:23But they would leave it there
11:25In case anything else came up in the future
11:28That's why I think you can't get rid of the box
11:31Because that's a strong evidence in itself
11:34Obviously we've put it away, haven't we?
11:38But I don't think I can get rid of the box
11:41I just don't think I can chuck the box out
11:53The more people go digging
11:56Looking for new evidence
11:58The stronger the case for the prosecution
12:01And looking at the way Lucy Letby behaved
12:09She seemed to be animated by the fact that her baby has died
12:14She'd say, guess what's happened
12:17Her baby's died last night
12:19She wanted to be there
12:22Wanting to organise everything
12:25Even intruding on the parents' grief
12:30That is most weird behaviour
12:34We are dealing with an individual
12:39Who is sociopathic
12:42We all look back at our lives
12:50And things that we do
12:55And things that we say
12:56Why on earth did I say something like that?
12:59But then put it under a spotlight
13:03In a criminal trial
13:05With someone saying
13:08That's just bad behaviour
13:10Abnormal behaviour
13:11Maybe in hindsight it was
13:14But
13:17We can't murder her
13:21I don't need this at some stage
13:28Most of the babies who died
13:37Died from an injection of air
13:40Into the bloodstream
13:41It's something that's very easy to do
13:43Right
13:44This is a standard set up
13:47In any children's ward
13:49Or neonatal unit
13:50I'm using red wine
13:53Simply to make it easier to see
13:58Nobody's looking
14:01Just connect it
14:03Flush it through
14:04You can see how the
14:06The fluid's gone in
14:09The pink stuff
14:10And then there's a bubble of air
14:13And that'll end up in the baby's circulation
14:16Within seconds
14:18Take it out
14:19Syringe is gone
14:22No evidence
14:24So it's that simple to do
14:29There was also this peculiar discoloration
14:33Described by a number of doctors and nurses
14:35When these babies collapsed
14:37And I found a number of published papers
14:40Where air embolus was cause of death
14:44And where this peculiar discoloration was found
14:48Air embolism was diagnosed by Dowie Evans
14:55On the basis of exclusion
14:56That he couldn't think of anything else
14:57That could have caused these sudden collapses
14:59He said it's not that
15:00It's not that
15:01It's not that
15:02Therefore it must be air embolism
15:04I can't think of anything else it is
15:05It's an interesting diagnosis to make
15:08Because it's very hard to prove
15:09And it's also very hard to disprove
15:10While we're talking
15:21I am being filmed
15:22Talking to you
15:23No
15:26Yes
15:27Yes I am serious
15:28Yes
15:28They're in my kitchen
15:30Hello
15:31When I started and picked this up
15:32Four or five months ago
15:34In that period of time
15:35Boom
15:36The whole thing has changed
15:37Oh there he is
15:38Hello
15:39I've currently got
15:41Hi
15:42Very well
15:42Fifteen experts instructed
15:45To look at this case
15:47And I've got reports coming in
15:49On a weekly basis
15:51From all over the world
15:53Sorry
15:53Have you got me?
15:54From Harvard
15:55From Tokyo
15:57From Sweden
15:58From Canada
15:59And in the United Kingdom
16:01We could do it anytime you want
16:03I am expecting
16:05Two more reports
16:07In the coming weeks
16:08Okay
16:09For the insulin cases
16:11Alright let's do it that way
16:13Baby F and Baby L
16:23Were the insulin cases
16:24They were crucial
16:26To the convictions
16:28Some people called them
16:32The smoking gun cases
16:33Because there was
16:35Hard evidence that
16:36These babies had been poisoned
16:38Lucy Letby
16:39Was accused
16:40Of putting
16:42Insulin
16:43Into their drips
16:44That were either feeding
16:45Or giving them nutrients
16:46The test results
16:50Were discovered
16:50Many months
16:52After
16:53The police started investigating
16:54The efficacy of these blood tests
16:58Wasn't disputed
16:59In court
16:59In fact Lucy Letby
17:00Herself admitted
17:01When she was cross-examined
17:03That someone
17:03On the ward
17:04Must have poisoned them
17:05With insulin
17:06But she just said
17:09Categorically
17:09It wasn't me
17:11So we're here
17:15To talk about
17:16Baby L and F
17:18This is
17:20From the prosecution's
17:22Perspective
17:22Absolutely crucial
17:24That if this test
17:27Is correct
17:28That exogenous insulin
17:32Has been given
17:33Then that's it
17:36From their point of view
17:37Game over
17:38Was it given?
17:41So we came across
17:43Reference to some reports
17:45By Dr Walk
17:46The biochemist
17:47From Guildford
17:47Who administers
17:48The quality control testing
17:50For all of the labs
17:51Dr Walk
17:52In court
17:53Provided
17:54Two pairs
17:55Of results
17:55Of quality control
17:57One pair
17:58For baby F
17:59And one
18:00For baby L
18:01And
18:02Her second report
18:04A test
18:05That was done
18:05Just a few weeks
18:06After baby L's test
18:08Shows
18:09That
18:10The
18:11Insulin result
18:13Came out
18:15As 962
18:16Right
18:17The target result
18:18For that insulin level
18:19Was 108
18:20So it was around
18:22800% higher
18:23So what is this
18:25Studying me?
18:26So the jury
18:27Was repeatedly told
18:29By the prosecution
18:30There is no other
18:32Way
18:33That this result
18:34Could indicate
18:34Anything else
18:35Except exogenous insulin
18:36Here we have
18:38A quality control test
18:39That is showing
18:41The same result
18:42That the two baby tests
18:44Baby F
18:45And baby L
18:45Showed
18:46A fictitiously
18:47High insulin level
18:49The reliability
18:51That was attributed
18:52To this test
18:53Is invalid
18:55So this is not
18:56An opinion
18:56It's a fact
18:57When Dr Wart
19:00Was questioned
19:01In court
19:02She presented
19:02The first
19:03Of those tests
19:04That was done
19:05And then the subject
19:06Was changed
19:07Are you saying
19:08The jury
19:08Were not told this?
19:10That's correct
19:10So I think
19:12That's a significant
19:13Piece of information
19:14That
19:15Completely undermines
19:17Well as far as
19:18I can see it
19:19The process
19:19I mean I'm not a lawyer
19:20But you know
19:22What it shows
19:23Is that
19:23What the jury
19:24Were told
19:25Was not correct
19:27These results
19:28Cannot be safely
19:30Relied upon
19:30Thank you
19:33I've now got
19:51Full reports
19:52And they're very compelling
19:55What each
19:58Of the cases
19:59Exposed
20:00Was serious
20:03And systemic
20:04Failings
20:05Of the unit
20:06There were people
20:08That were coming
20:08Forward
20:09Raising issues
20:12About this
20:13Neonatal unit
20:14Probably
20:16One of the
20:18Loudest voices
20:19Of those
20:20Was Lucy Letby
20:22She's the one
20:27Who's now
20:27Serving life
20:28In prison
20:29There's been
20:48An announcement
20:49That people
20:50Are getting
20:50Very excited
20:50About
20:51Mark McDonald
20:58Now
20:58Has just managed
21:00To get
21:00The best experts
21:01In the world
21:02Together
21:02They've looked
21:03At every case
21:03In detail
21:04And they're going
21:05To say
21:05What their
21:06Conclusions are
21:07I think it's in here
21:08Are you here
21:09For the Lucy Letby
21:09Press conference
21:10Yes
21:10Thank you very much
21:13Today's a bit
21:17Of a game changer
21:18In the whole
21:19Of the case
21:21Really
21:21Having taken over
21:22In September
21:23It's kind of
21:24All led up
21:25To this moment
21:26Dr. Shu Lee
21:44Is seen as
21:44One of the most
21:45Senior paediatricians
21:46In Canada
21:47And he's going
21:48To chair
21:48The press conference
21:49He got involved
21:50In this trial
21:51Inadversively
21:52In that one
21:52Of his papers
21:53From 1989
21:54He felt
21:55Being misused
21:55By the prosecution
21:56So surely
21:58When he discovered
21:58This was absolutely
21:59Horrified
22:00I don't usually
22:02Do medical legal
22:03Cases
22:03I don't like
22:04But in this case
22:05Because what the
22:06Prosecution expert
22:07Witnesses had said
22:08With respect to the
22:10Skin discoloration
22:11That was associated
22:12With embolism
22:13Wasn't what I wrote
22:15About
22:15And that that was wrong
22:16Mark said
22:18Look you're known
22:19As the godfather
22:21Of neonatology
22:21In Canada
22:22Can you get me
22:23Some other
22:23International experts
22:24Who'd be prepared
22:25To look at this
22:26Pro bono
22:26And the anticipation
22:28Is that they're going
22:28To talk about
22:29Every single case
22:30Before I start
22:37I'd like to share
22:38The synchrotes
22:39And condolences
22:39Of members
22:40Of the international
22:41Expert panel
22:42With families
22:43Of the affected infants
22:45We understand
22:46Their stress
22:48And their anguish
22:49And our work
22:50Is not meant
22:51To cause more distress
22:52Rather
22:53It is meant
22:54To give them
22:55Comfort
22:55And assurance
22:57In knowing
22:58The truth
22:59About what
23:00Really happened
23:01Now the members
23:02Of the international
23:03Expert panel
23:04He started the conference
23:06Listing the names
23:07Of all the experts
23:09And all their credentials
23:10The fact that
23:11They've given their time
23:12Pro bono
23:12And have produced
23:14Thousands of papers
23:15So it's undoubted
23:17That these were
23:17Extremely high caliber experts
23:19Now the next baby
23:21Is baby 4
23:22Which is another case
23:23Of air embolism
23:24The notion
23:25That these babies
23:27Can be diagnosed
23:28With air embolism
23:29Because they collapsed
23:30And had these
23:31Skin discolorations
23:32Has no evidence
23:33In fact
23:34This baby
23:36Was born after
23:37Prolonged
23:37Premature rupture
23:38Of membranes
23:39There is a standard
23:41Treatment guideline
23:42In this country
23:43And in other countries
23:44That if there is
23:45Prolonged
23:46Premature rupture
23:47Of membranes
23:47The mother
23:48Should be given
23:49Antibiotics right away
23:50So that the baby
23:52Can be protected
23:53From any infection
23:54In this case
23:55That was not done
23:56This was not
23:58A stable baby
23:59As alleged
24:00By the prosecution witness
24:02So this baby died
24:03Of systemic
24:05Sepsis
24:06Pneumonia
24:07We did not find
24:09Any evidence
24:09Of air embolism
24:10It's not that unusual
24:15For experts
24:17To draw different
24:18Conclusions
24:18Based on the same
24:19Evidence
24:19That often happens
24:20But to draw
24:21Such diametrically
24:22Opposed views
24:23Based on the same
24:24Evidence
24:25Is really quite
24:26Staggering
24:26So baby 9
24:29The doctors
24:30Failed to respond
24:31To routine
24:32Surveillance warnings
24:33That this baby
24:34Was colonised
24:35With this bacteria
24:35They did not
24:37Recognise the diagnosis
24:38This was likely
24:40A preventable death
24:41Now baby 11
24:44There's actually
24:45No proof
24:45That the tube
24:46Was even dislodged
24:47It was probably
24:47In the right place
24:48It's just that
24:49The consultant
24:50Didn't know
24:50What he was doing
24:51The journalists
24:56And some quite
24:57Experienced journalists
24:58In the room
24:58Couldn't quite believe
24:59What they were hearing
25:00In summary
25:01Ladies and gentlemen
25:02We did not find
25:04Any murders
25:04In all cases
25:06Death or injury
25:08Were due to
25:09Natural causes
25:10Or just bad
25:11Medical care
25:12People were just
25:15Speechless
25:16If you are looking
25:18For the truth
25:18You don't need
25:21To go any further
25:21I'll be happy
25:23To take any questions
25:24Dr Hammond
25:27I'd like to ask
25:28Dr Lee
25:29Did any of the
25:30International experts
25:30Look at this
25:31And go
25:31Gosh this could
25:32Easily happen
25:32In my country
25:33Or did they say
25:34God what an
25:35Appalling system
25:35The NHS has
25:36This is the tip
25:37Of the iceberg
25:37Thousands of babies
25:38Must be dying
25:39Avoidably from
25:40Substandard care
25:41I would say
25:42That if this was
25:43A hospital in Canada
25:44It would be shut down
25:45Right
25:45It wouldn't be happening
25:47Can I say
25:49Thank you to the panel
25:50Thank you to everybody
25:51For coming
25:52Those who don't have
25:53Reports
25:53There should be
25:53Some more left
25:54Behind here
25:55So you can look at
25:56My shoes
25:56Thank you
25:57If you're a poor
25:59Parent listening to this
26:01And the experts
26:02Are not only saying
26:02Your baby wasn't
26:03Murdered
26:04What they are saying
26:05Is with better care
26:06Your baby would be
26:06Alive
26:07You can't imagine
26:08Anything more
26:09Devastating for the
26:10Parents listening to
26:10These
26:11This is just the tip
26:12Of the iceberg
26:12I mean this is big
26:14But there are more
26:15Reports after this
26:17An independent expert panel
26:19Concluded that Lucy Letby
26:21May be innocent
26:22And the victim
26:23Of a horrendous
26:25Miscarriage of justice
26:26Lucy Letby's new lawyer
26:28Mark McDonald
26:29In the report
26:30Demolished the case
26:31Against her
26:32Free Lucy Letby
26:33Free Lucy Letby
26:35I'm now at the point
26:37Where I think
26:37This needs to be reviewed
26:38It needs to be gone over
26:39We need to see it all again
26:40Free Lucy Letby
26:41Free Lucy Letby
26:43Free Lucy Letby
26:45Free Lucy Letby
26:47Free Lucy Letby
26:49Free Lucy Letby
26:51Free Lucy Letby
26:52Free Lucy Letby
26:52The tide has turned
26:57I don't think
27:00Dowie Evans will ever
27:01Admit he's made a mistake
27:02I think he's stuck
27:03In that mindset
27:04I didn't watch the press conference
27:16I've reviewed all of the reports
27:19In detail
27:21The reports I've seen
27:22Are some of the weakest reports
27:24I've ever seen
27:25They're hopeless
27:28These people were recruited
27:31By Dr Lee
27:32So they were selected
27:34And if they had been recruited
27:37Even subconsciously
27:39If Dr Lee had said
27:40They are misusing
27:42My evidence
27:43Then I think
27:45That would immediately
27:46Prejudice
27:47Their thinking process
27:48And on top of that
27:50Of course
27:50You know
27:52They're Americans
27:53They're Canadians
27:55They don't know
27:58How the system works here
27:59Americans
28:01Unfairly or not
28:03Have a reputation
28:03For functioning
28:04As hired guns
28:05And I've experienced this
28:07A couple of times
28:08Where the other side
28:09Will seek an opinion
28:11From across the Atlantic
28:13And
28:15Because they can't get
28:17An honest opinion
28:18From the UK
28:20You know
28:21The gang of Lee
28:23You know
28:23I mean
28:23I don't want to be rude
28:25About people
28:26Most of the time
28:29They've just got
28:31Their facts wrong
28:31You know
28:34I could not believe
28:35What I read
28:36They've got their facts wrong
28:37I'll be happy to take
28:40Any questions
28:40Thank you very much
28:42Indeed
28:42That's an astonishing
28:44Set of revelations
28:46This is the first time
28:47You've seen this press conference
28:48You've watched this for
28:48No I haven't watched it before
28:50It's the first time
28:50You're watching
28:50Yeah
28:51Thank you very much
28:54Dr Lee
28:54Can you tell me
28:57How many publications
28:59Have you authored
29:00In terms of peer-reviewed
29:03Publications in journals
29:04I've authored over 400
29:05How many peer-reviewed
29:08Publications
29:09According to PubMed
29:10Is Dr Dowie Evans
29:12The Crown Star expert witness
29:14I've got no
29:15The answer is zero
29:16So
29:18Here is the problem
29:20You
29:21And your panel
29:22Have written
29:23Together
29:24Thousands
29:25Of peer-reviewed
29:27Papers
29:29On Neolitology
29:30The Crown Star witness
29:32Dr Dowie Evans
29:33Has written zero
29:34What does that tell you
29:37About the scientific
29:40Knowledge
29:42Of Cheshire Police
29:44Of the Crown Prosecution Service
29:46The judge of the trial
29:49And the judges of the appeal court
29:52That they do not understand
29:54The difference
29:54Between scientists
29:56Who have published
29:57Multiple papers on this subject
30:00And someone
30:02Who has published
30:02Nothing
30:03So
30:07First of all
30:08The panel that we have
30:09Is
30:09As I said
30:10This is the top launch
30:11In Neolitology
30:12This is the panel
30:12Of the
30:13The beauty of Neolitology
30:14In Neolitology
30:15Sons of the
30:27To the
30:28The
30:29Now
30:29The
30:30As I said
30:31Those
30:31The
30:32Though
30:32And
30:33The
30:44I'm going to ask 3 questions
30:46First of all, the first question would be
30:48If our panel found so many problems
30:50With the medical care provided
30:52By this team at this hospital
30:54How is it that Dr. Evidence found none
30:56Because in none of the 17 cases
30:58Did he even identify one
31:00Problem with the medical care provided
31:02At the hospital
31:04The second question I would ask is this
31:06He seemed to be rather selective
31:08In his use of information
31:10So if he wasn't selective
31:12If all the information was used
31:14In fact you would come to a very different conclusion
31:16Than what he came to
31:18The next question I would ask is
31:20Even when there is an obvious cause of death
31:22Why did he go around looking for malfeasance?
31:24So if you can answer those 3 questions
31:28I think you have the answer to your question
31:30Sir
31:34Yeah, I mean he's wrong on all 3 counts
31:36I mean first of all
31:38He says I have not
31:40Made a single criticism of the management
31:42Of the babies
31:44This is factually wrong
31:46I made it very clear
31:48That there was a delay in giving antibiotics
31:50In the case of baby D
31:52As for being selective
31:54Once again
31:56He's completely wrong
31:58Utterly incorrect
32:00Um
32:02I stressed to Cheshire police
32:04That I wanted to see
32:06And did see
32:08The case notes of all the babies who died
32:10I reviewed all of them
32:12So again he is factually wrong
32:16And then he says
32:18Why am I looking at malfeasance
32:20And ignoring everything else
32:22Well since then we found
32:24Suspected
32:26That there are
32:28Additional babies murdered by Lucy Letby
32:30So
32:32Dr. Lee is wrong on
32:34All 3 of the observations
32:36He's made about me
32:38Well I think it's very worrying actually
32:40I mean it's very worrying that people are getting the facts wrong
32:44You know
32:48And I think Lee had been
32:50Subconsciously programmed
32:52You know
32:54By the pro let me crowd
32:58There we are
33:00I'm glad you showed me that clip
33:14Because it just shows that Lee doesn't
33:16Is not
33:18Up to speed with his facts
33:22Yeah he got his facts wrong
33:24Never get your facts wrong
33:28Initially I thought well you know maybe there's something in this
33:50So I went away
33:54Spent a few days
33:56Going back over my trial notes
34:02For example the case of Baby O
34:04At the first press conference
34:06They accused a doctor of inserting a needle
34:08And causing the liver injury that killed Baby O
34:12The baby died from shock
34:14From a liver perforation
34:16At the second press conference
34:18The expert panel appeared to contradict this version of events
34:22Baby 15
34:24Baby 15 died from a subcapsular liver hematoma
34:28Caused by traumatic delivery
34:30This time a botched delivery was responsible for the liver injury
34:36There was no mention of a botched delivery at the trial
34:42The delivery went well
34:44The issue of whether
34:46Baby O had been injured
34:48By a needle
34:50Was discussed at length
34:52Before the jury
34:54The only pathologist being questioned
34:56Was definitive
34:57There was no perforation injury
34:58The insertion of the needle
35:00By Dr. Brary
35:02Was a last ditch attempt
35:04To try and save this baby's life
35:06Experts in court
35:08Supported the view that
35:10That was deemed appropriate
35:12A lot of the evidence
35:14A lot of the evidence that they presented
35:15At the press conference
35:16Was not new in my opinion
35:18Regurgitation of evidence
35:20That had already been presented
35:22At the trial
35:24And been dismissed
35:26I don't think I've seen anything
35:29To show that she's been the victim
35:31Of a miscarriage of justice
35:33Not yet
35:34As someone who covered the trial
35:44Something that has come into my possession
35:47Is an email from Dr. Xu Li
35:50An email that he sent out
35:52To recruit people onto the panel
35:56Something that caught my eye
35:59At the end of this
36:01He says
36:03We might be her last hope
36:05My immediate reaction
36:07Was it called into question
36:09How balanced really
36:11Is this request?
36:12If you're saying
36:13We are her last hope
36:15You're in her corner
36:18I feel desperately sad
36:29For the families of the babies
36:30Involved
36:31They know that their babies
36:35Were harmed and killed
36:36By Lucy Letby
36:37The public perception now
36:40Is that
36:41Maybe she didn't do it
36:42It must be incredibly difficult
36:45For them to stomach
36:46Today Richard Baker Casey
36:50Who represents some of the families
36:52Said Lucy Letby's lawyers
36:54Will have a serious uphill battle
36:57To try and convince them
36:58To convince them
36:59That the convictions are unsafe
37:00The families would say
37:02For all the bells and whistles
37:03That might be attached
37:04To a press conference
37:06There is nothing remarkable
37:08Or new
37:09About the evidence being presented
37:11Whatever side of the debate
37:15People are on
37:16People should remember
37:17That the dead and armed
37:18Are not public property
37:19To be dissected on television
37:20Or on the internet
37:21To be dissected on television
37:22Or on the internet
37:26People will jump on the fact
37:29That there will be nuanced differences
37:31Between the different experts
37:32One of them said
37:33We think liver damage happened
37:34During the birth
37:35The other one said
37:36We think liver damage happened
37:37Sticking a needle in
37:38So there's a difference in those interpretations
37:39But both of them found no evidence
37:40Of deliberate harm
37:41It's not unusual to have those differences
37:42And I don't think that negates the validity of the reports
37:44What was so powerful in the evidence
37:45What was so powerful in the evidence
37:46In the evidence
37:47In the evidence
37:48In the evidence
37:49In the evidence
37:50In the evidence
37:51In the evidence
37:52People will jump on the fact
37:53That there will be nuanced differences
37:54Between the different experts
37:55One of them said
37:56We think liver damage happened
37:57During the birth
37:58The other one said
37:59We think liver damage happened
38:00Sticking a needle in
38:01So there's a difference
38:02In those interpretations
38:03But both of them found
38:04No evidence
38:05Of deliberate harm
38:06It's not unusual
38:07To have those differences
38:08And I don't think
38:09That negates the validity
38:10Of the reports
38:11What was so powerful
38:14About Xu Li's statement
38:16Was he was also clear
38:18That there was very, very poor medical care
38:21The unit simply was not up to the task
38:24Of coping with such a complex workload
38:29Instead we decided to blame it all
38:31On the nurse for being a murderer
38:35Two babies a day die
38:37Probably avoidably in the NHS
38:39Because we don't have the staff
38:41And the expertise
38:42And the facilities to save them
38:43And that's the lesson
38:44That needs to come out of this
38:45We don't want more
38:46Witch hunts for murderers
38:47We want properly staffed
38:49NHS units
38:50With a proper safety culture
38:51So more babies each year are saved
38:53And more mothers are saved
38:54To save
39:13Today I'm going to the criminal cases review commission
39:16To hand in over a thousand pages
39:19On detailed reports
39:21Into why it is
39:22That Lucy Letby
39:24Did not commit any of these crimes
39:34Mr. McDonald
39:35Yes
39:36You know from what the family said
39:37At the end of the Thurwell inquiry
39:38A couple of weeks ago
39:39Not what the family said
39:40What the lawyers said
39:41Let's get it right
39:42They represent the family
39:43Yeah but it's not
39:44You've got to get it right Liz
39:45Okay
39:46Right
39:47What you're trying to get at
39:48Is do I have empathy
39:49For what's going on
39:50With the families
39:51No no what I'm asking you
39:52Well let me answer that question
39:53Do I have empathy
39:54Of course I have empathy
39:55These families have been through hell and back
39:57I have said
39:59If they want to look at these reports
40:01Then they can look at them
40:03Because what I'm after is the truth
40:05Those families say
40:07That there's a due legal process
40:09That's followed
40:10And that you could
40:11You know
40:12Put this application in
40:13Which you've done
40:14But why did you
40:15What why did you need
40:16To hand deliver it
40:17They say you're just
40:18Full of publicity
40:19You know
40:20Because you
40:21Run the blog
40:22Continuously
40:23And your podcast
40:24All the way through the trial
40:25When it comes to media
40:26You've been out there
40:28At the front of the media list
40:29I know that
40:30And you have
40:31My job though
40:32And you had one narrative
40:33And you captured that narrative
40:35Really well
40:36Excellently
40:37Because I put together
40:38A counter-narrative
40:39A narrative that I say
40:40Is actually the truth
40:44I feel very confident
40:45That the CCRC
40:47Will now refer this
40:48To the Court of Appeal
40:49I feel very confident
40:53The Court of Appeal
40:55Will say
40:56That her convictions
40:57Are unsafe
41:06I spoke to Lucy only
41:07Last night
41:08And now I hear something
41:11Very different
41:12In her voice
41:13I hear hope
41:17Two of my four grandchildren
41:24Were born
41:25At the same time
41:26That Lucy Letby
41:28Was waging carnage
41:30In Chester Hospital
41:31The children murdered by her
41:34Should now be at school
41:36Enjoying holidays
41:38Enjoying life
41:39That will never happen
41:41Clearly Lucy Letby
41:43Should confess
41:44But I don't think she will
41:46I think she's blanked off
41:50All of her crimes
41:51In order
41:52To be able to live
41:53With herself
41:54Our son is always going to know
42:06And she'll probably always be in and out of the news
42:09And he'll always be reminded of it
42:11And I don't know when he's older
42:13How that's going to make him feel
42:15Or what effect that has on him
42:17I worry for his future, yeah
42:19When he gets older
42:20But then it is one of
42:22I guess the biggest cases in the world
42:24Yeah
42:25And people do have a right to know
42:26What had happened
42:27There's always going to be two sides to it
42:31Isn't there?
42:32Personally I think she's 100% guilty
42:35I fear from being guilty to not guilty
42:43Depending on how I feel that day
42:45Because I definitely feel something went on
42:50At the hospital
42:52But then I also find it so hard to believe
42:55That somebody could actually do something like that
42:58But obviously we'll never know the whole truth
43:05And you'll find support information online by heading to channel4.com
43:18As slash support
43:19Now back for a new series Sunday at 9
43:22A dangerous manhunt that gets darker by the minute
43:25The return of 24 hours in police custody
43:28But another 24 hours here next
43:31This time in A&E
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