- 1 day ago
Brussels, my love? Have centrist politicians gotten lazy and complacent?
In this edition, we ask if Trumps' America is triggering a new wave of polarisation in Europe and hear how the EU is struggling to keep up with climate targets.
READ MORE : http://www.euronews.com/2025/09/27/brussels-my-love-have-centrist-politicians-gotten-lazy-and-complacent
Subscribe to our channel. Euronews is available on Dailymotion in 12 languages
In this edition, we ask if Trumps' America is triggering a new wave of polarisation in Europe and hear how the EU is struggling to keep up with climate targets.
READ MORE : http://www.euronews.com/2025/09/27/brussels-my-love-have-centrist-politicians-gotten-lazy-and-complacent
Subscribe to our channel. Euronews is available on Dailymotion in 12 languages
Category
🗞
NewsTranscript
00:00Hello there and welcome to Brussels, my love, our weekly European politics show here on
00:18Euronews. I'm Maeve McMahon. Thank you so much for tuning in. Coming up this week,
00:23since taking office, US President Donald Trump has been cracking down on anyone who disagrees
00:29with him. Divisions have exasperated since the murder of the right-wing activist Charlie Kirk,
00:34who was laid to rest last weekend. Meanwhile, here in Europe, public discourse is becoming
00:39more aggressive too, with political fringes growing and the centre weakening. Is Europe
00:44facing similar polarisation and what does that mean for us? And EU climate policy has hit a major
00:51roadblock. Environment ministers fails to reach a deal on the EU's 2035 and 2040 climate targets,
00:58choosing to kick the can down the road to future talks. The UN climate targets may not be met
01:03either, meaning the EU could head to the next COP in Brazil empty-handed. With so much at stake for
01:09the EU's reputation and the planet, we're asking if climate neutrality by 2050 is just a pipe dream.
01:16A warm welcome to our guests this weekend, Jacob Reynolds, Policy Advisor at MCC Brussels,
01:21Susanna Karp from the Foundation for Citizens' Rights and Clean Tech Europe,
01:25and Armendra Kanani from Friends of Europe. Lovely to have you all with us. Thank you so much for
01:30coming. But as usual, before we bring in your views, let's just hear how political fringes are
01:34gaining popularity here in Europe.
01:40Europe's political landscape is reshaping and an end of this process is nowhere in sight.
01:45Over the past decade, new populist parties, both on the left and on the right, have gained prominence
01:56across the continent.
02:01The populist movements present themselves as the voice of the people against self-serving elites,
02:07framing their politics in terms of us versus them.
02:10It's democracy, in black and white, constantly blaming the others for everything that goes wrong
02:19in society.
02:23This has created new social and political tensions, exacerbating polarization,
02:29undermining democratic norms, and adopting an aggressive political discourse that seeks to
02:35weed out different worldviews.
02:37What's the end game?
02:42Is Europe succumbing to culture wars and political violence, as is the United States?
02:51So that is the question we're posing this weekend here on Brussels.
02:54My love, is Trump's America challenging our values and identity here?
02:58Susanna?
02:58Well, first of all, I would say that polarization in Europe has been on the rise for longer than
03:05Donald Trump, even first term in office.
03:09And I think it's good to contextualize it closer to Europe rather than closer to the United States,
03:14because, of course, in Europe, we've also had the situation of Brexit that has still,
03:20you know, challenged some of the constructions we had built up to then.
03:23We also have growing political violence, as we've seen in the last European Parliament
03:28elections in May 2024.
03:31And so there is a wider context that is affecting Europe, of which the United States is just one factor.
03:40And the roots, remember, for this polarization, it links back perhaps to the financial crisis.
03:44Indeed it is, but it's a mixture of things.
03:48But I agree with you, but Europe does polarization really well.
03:51Hitler did it fantastically, let's not forget.
03:53And so there's a history of the roots and antecedents in Europe that we seem to kind of
03:58really kind of not remember what happened in the 20s and 30s, yet we're going back to it.
04:03The roots, I think the causes of some of this, and I'm sure all of you will agree,
04:08are people who feel left out, people who don't know how to make ends meet,
04:12and think that politicians have got their noses in their trough and don't really care about them.
04:17That's on the right and the left.
04:19But the right has a better game playing.
04:22And in a sense, their playbook is clearer.
04:24They prey on vulnerability.
04:26We've seen it time and time again.
04:28Happening in the 30s, it's happening right now.
04:29And so that's what the issue is.
04:31And I think the real fault lies in centre politics and left politics.
04:35They've been fat, lazy and complacent in thinking that things will never go back to what they were before.
04:40And actually, we can take the voter for granted.
04:42And this has come back.
04:44Well, indeed, if you look at that protest in the UK recently, over 110,000 people came out.
04:49A lot of them were former Labour voters, but have now moved.
04:52But it's indicative of a broader trend that applies in Europe and the same in the UK and similar things going on in America.
04:58And I agree you have to put it in context.
05:00But what is the context?
05:01The context is one where the political scene has drifted wildly away from the concerns of ordinary voters.
05:09And so over several decades, you've seen the kind of political mainstream, the political elites have pursued policies, which have been increasingly, increasingly unpopular among ordinary people, whether that's on migration, whether that's on climate that we're going to tackle next, whether it's on social and cultural issues.
05:24And the gap between ordinary people and the people who are supposed to represent them has just turned into a chasm.
05:30And inevitably, there's going to be a backlash when people vote time and time again for more control on migration, less centralisation of power in Europe.
05:38And they vote for that again and again, and nothing happens.
05:41It's inevitable that there's going to be a reaction.
05:43Lying, lying has become part of the political playbook.
05:46And this is what the difference is right now in the sense that since Boris, Trump and every other leader in that same group, they've made lying publicly acceptable and they've ruined the office of either private president or prime minister and people can't trust.
05:59So if you've got someone saying, actually, don't take paracetamol because it will make you, it will give you autistic kids, which is absolutely ridiculous from the, you know, the most powerful leaders in the Western world.
06:10You know, the game's a bogey. And so that that's the part of the issue.
06:14Well, if you want to talk about trust in politics, I'll take you back to what I said, which is that you can only have trust in politics if you respect the processes of democracy.
06:20And if you have people voting time and again for certain things and political leaders refusing to follow through on them, casting aside their votes, thinking that they should be made to vote again, and basically just pursuing a policy that's the opposite one to the one that we voted in for, you're going to have a huge gap in trust.
06:35That's the real root of it. There's always been lying in politics.
06:37There's always been dodgy characters and cheating and stealing and all the rest of it.
06:41But what's different now is that the people who are supposed to represent us completely disdain our opinions.
06:46And that's the root of this polarisation.
06:47Susanna, do you think the UK is sleepwalking back to fascism?
06:51Oh, I can't really make that statement as such, but I want to really reframe the context as well, just to say that perhaps there is a moment where we just need to renew democracy
07:02and to give a space for citizens to represent themselves.
07:06Perhaps it's the system of representative democracy that is now crumbling because the times have changed.
07:13Citizens have much more information about what's going on in the world than previously.
07:17They are following various analysis themselves.
07:21Maybe there's a role for permanent citizens' assemblies, committees.
07:25I mean, the Conference on the Future of Europe was an attempt at doing that.
07:30That's not working, Susanna.
07:32Because they haven't been institutionalised.
07:34I think we need to go deeper into the space of creating a direct way for citizens to represent themselves and have decision-making power.
07:43What's not connecting with people, as we saw last week in the UK, was the death of the activist Charlie Kirk.
07:49Which is, of course, extremely concerning that we don't want to live in a world where there's political violence or politically motivated violence.
07:56And now that we're talking about the UK, you know, there's also this episode from 2016 where Joe Cox was murdered a week before the referendum on the UK's belonging to the EU.
08:08And so, actually, we've been in this climate that has been, sadly, really increasingly more aggressive for a decade.
08:18And we read about those attacks every day, attacks on politicians online enough.
08:21We have to remember, one thing is that, so we have a citizen engagement unit, right?
08:24We're one of the only think tanks that are able to kind of, so we spoke to 2,024 citizens in the year of 2024.
08:30We've recently spoken to about 2,000 across five member states.
08:34The key issue that people have, they have faith and hope, they don't have trust.
08:39They've got the faith and the hope, they don't trust the politician, and they don't believe that the private sector or the public sector or political leaders will have their best interests at heart.
08:47And this is not new, but for some reason, our political masters don't want to hear that properly.
08:53They're still firefighting the right rather than thinking about how do I reclaim the hearts and minds of people that actually want fair, authentic, grounded leadership.
09:03And I don't know why.
09:05So Nigel Farage is now taking a huge swing in the UK.
09:10Keir is making absolutely big mistakes constantly, which is a real disappointment.
09:14Asylum seekers and migrants don't have to be in hotels.
09:17And now we're getting more and more insider reports, and everything he's doing seems to be walking into a trap.
09:23And Farage is coming through.
09:24And you're right to say there's a kind of a fascism taking place in the sense in the UK that what you're having is this kind of rabble rousing, you know, thousands of people that turned up.
09:34But when the BBC spoke or other journalists spoke to individuals, they didn't know it was a right wing rally.
09:39They were thinking they were out.
09:40Many argued, many argued, said we're not far right.
09:42We're just pro-UK.
09:43Absolutely.
09:44You can make it sound very complicated, and we need, like, citizens' assemblies or consultations or the rest of it.
09:51But the response is actually quite straightforward.
09:53It's that in almost every European country, you have a broad majority among ordinary people for tough action on migration, for changing the way we approach climate, for dealing with cost of living issues and all the rest of it.
10:04And you don't have political parties prepared to put those concerns on the table.
10:08So if you take the example of Germany, for example, where you have, like, a wide majority among voters for tough action on migration, and yet the political parties don't respect that.
10:16In fact, they spend all their time trying to avoid taking action on migration.
10:19This pattern is repeated again and again in every European country.
10:23And you can dismiss this as the rise of fascism, which is incredibly historically illiterate.
10:27You can do that if you like, or you can actually do what you said you were doing, which is listening to the concerns of ordinary people, going on those marches, hearing what people have to say who, as you say, don't consider themselves to be far right.
10:37So you don't believe – do politicians have political responsibility to tell the truth?
10:40Do they have the responsibility to educate, persuade, influence, and have a vision of a future and a Europe that's just and human rights-based?
10:48What you're saying is have a free market economy.
10:50Just because people have been lied to about migration being a problem, then you're saying the majority of Germans, that's not true, absolutely not true.
10:57You have a bulk in the East that actually feel what they do.
11:01And this is part of the problem, right?
11:03The problem is you saying that the role of politicians are not listening and prepared to sleepwalk into a situation like you're saying.
11:12Let's just go with it.
11:13Let's put up the borders and the blanks.
11:15Let's make sure we don't have a concern for human rights because actually that's what people want.
11:19I can't pretend, if you like, that the role of a politician is to somehow sit above everybody, tell everybody how they should think and feel and dismiss their concerns.
11:25No, I'm saying engage, educate, and have values.
11:28And you can dismiss this as a kind of free market, but that's what democracy is.
11:30Democracy is listening to voters.
11:31Democracy is allowing people to have a say in the affairs of their country, not dismissing them every time they have a response or have concerns about their lives.
11:38Was Hitler part of a democracy?
11:39Was Hitler part of a democracy?
11:41Was Hitler part of a democracy or not?
11:43Hitler born into German democracy.
11:44This is a ridiculous comparison.
11:46It's not, it's not true.
11:46He would argue, as Orbán and others would say, this is a democracy because people want it.
11:51Hitler's expressly brought an end to democracy.
11:53This comparison is completely factual.
11:55Susanna?
11:56Well, I think when we speak of those large majorities of citizens that support, for example, policies on climate, we see that Europeans are 60% supporting climate.
12:05When it comes to migration, what I think they're actually saying, and it's being pulled into one category, is that migration needs to be handled better by governments.
12:15And so what that actually means is that integration support needs to look different.
12:20That, exactly.
12:21So, so basically what citizens are noticing is that, unfortunately, some migrant groups are left out in a perpetual cycle of, you know, they're not disintegration.
12:32So they're not integrating.
12:33And so I could absolutely see that as us, the European continent, where we already share diversity on this continent.
12:39We are already coming from multiple national backgrounds, multiple cultural backgrounds.
12:44And what, what if it's right, you know, sorry, sorry to interrupt, because I was in Epping two weeks ago.
12:49So Epping is the place where, you know, it's been the combustion of all this stuff in the UK, where there's a hotel where a man attacked a young teenage girl.
12:58And it led to everything that was a mess down in the UK.
13:01So I went and into that area, but also my family just lived just outside.
13:06And in the town square, the reform gang were putting up their stuff.
13:10And so one of them approached me and I thought to myself, OK, I've never really done this because it's like, it's not, it's going to be ugly or it's going to be whatever.
13:16I thought, no, let's have a conversation.
13:19A woman in the mid 60s had been an anti-apartheid supporter all her life is voting for Farage.
13:25And I said, how is this possible? She goes, because I don't think they're doing the, I'm not a racist.
13:31I just think, why are they in hotels? Why are our borders not being protected?
13:35Why is it that my, my family are not, are unemployed whilst we're giving preferential treatment to others?
13:40So it's about political leadership and people feeling left out.
13:44Yet there she is. And I said to her, what about the message that, you know, in the UK, this is not being reported at all.
13:49So the rise in racial attacks against especially teenage girls by white young men.
13:56And I said, do you realise the message that he's giving out, that Farage and others are giving out is translated into 14 year olds saying to Asian girls, go back to your country.
14:05Who are third generation, fourth generation in the UK.
14:07So this is what's playing out on the street.
14:09And she said to me, oh, I didn't realise that I'll take it up with Nigel.
14:11I said, but this is an old age trick.
14:14I said, the reality is politicians say something.
14:16The impact is on children and kids and on the community, on the ground.
14:20Well, you've got a very schizophrenic approach to listening to people because you can accurately convey the concerns of ordinary people.
14:26And then at the same time say, well, actually, all these things that you're concerned about, the fact that your kids have schools that don't operate properly,
14:32that are chock full of people, that our borders are completely leaky,
14:35that every time someone who commits a crime in a European country is attempted to be sent back, that's blocked by the courts.
14:40Whenever all these things happen.
14:42But you're saying, actually, you shouldn't really be concerned about this.
14:44You should be concerned about something else.
14:46I'm not.
14:46I'm saying you're about equality, human rights and social justice.
14:49I don't want my political party or whoever I believe in to sow hate, divide and division.
14:55This is what's happening.
14:56People are hitting each other, killing each other, fighting each other in our streets and our communities across Europe.
15:02You see that.
15:03You see that.
15:03And also what we do know is special measures from Putin and others.
15:07They're creating instances where people suddenly hate.
15:12And you know what's dangerous about what you're saying?
15:14We're losing the ability to have empathy.
15:17We do not have empathy at all.
15:19I'd like to bring in, are we losing the ability to have empathy?
15:22I hope not.
15:23We have to, however, educate that ability to have empathy.
15:26And perhaps that is indeed missing from our school curricula.
15:31We don't really talk about citizenship.
15:32We don't really talk about democracy.
15:34I don't know if there's a good understanding of democracy out there.
15:37However, I want to just chip in very quickly, having been actually, I actually stood against
15:43Nigel Farage in the last European Parliament elections in the UK.
15:46And what I noticed in that context is that the massive discrepancy is between what political
15:51parties such as his actually have as an agenda and what people are told that they have as
15:58an agenda.
15:59People are told that they come first.
16:02But in reality, when you actually look deeper into it, and I've had the chance to be on debates
16:07with his candidates, it is the complete opposite.
16:10So this is the real discrepancy there.
16:12And I just want to put that on the table as well.
16:15But the reality on the ground, of course, if you saw the polls this week, the AFD, the
16:18far-right party in Germany, they're doing very well.
16:20They're one point ahead of CDU.
16:22And there was a poll out if Germany had elections this week, that the AFD would potentially win
16:27those elections.
16:27Well, yeah, this represents the fact that for such a long time, like all these voters who
16:31are now voting for the AFD and the pattern repeated right across Europe used to be voters
16:36for what you guys consider to be normal mainstream parties.
16:39Mainstream.
16:39And what's happened is that these parties have abandoned their voters.
16:42They've taken up completely wild positions on all the issues that we've been talking
16:46about.
16:46And their voters have stayed in the same place.
16:48The voters said, hey, I remember when our parties used to put our country first.
16:52I remember when we had strong borders.
16:54I remember when our health service worked, et cetera, et cetera.
16:56And what's happened is that the parties have completely ran away from the voters.
16:59And the voters are looking around and saying, hang on, nobody represents us.
17:02Nobody listens to us.
17:02But what kind of society would they bring about then in AFD Germany?
17:05Well, firstly, you'd have control over Germany's borders again, which would be a tremendous
17:09first start.
17:09You'd have an end to the ruinous environmental policy, which has completely destroyed German
17:13industry.
17:13So that would be two very obvious and very successful things the AFD could immediately
17:17There we go.
17:17Would we see a copycat approach from them?
17:18Total misinformation and disinformation on your part.
17:21You can just dismiss it.
17:22No, I'm not dismissing it.
17:23I'm not dismissing it.
17:24You can dismiss me as much as you dismiss all the voters all around.
17:27I'm engaging in a debate with you.
17:28I'm engaging in a debate with you to say, what you're saying, no, no, no, what you're
17:32saying is wrong.
17:33What you're saying is not factual.
17:35And it's not true.
17:36So therefore, it has to be challenged.
17:37This is a debate.
17:38This is a political debate.
17:39People are listening and watching this.
17:40If I sat here silently while you said borders closed, hospitals are not working in sector
17:45Well, you're definitely not going to sit here silently, aren't you?
17:45And indeed, I'm not.
17:46And neither I should.
17:47But when you are telling lies and you're being untruthful about the situation, the reality
17:53is the demise of hospitals across Europe, the demise of issues about migration are decades
17:59old.
17:59It's because politicians haven't taken seriously how they deal with this issue and let it just
18:05simply go by the wayside.
18:07And as you say, now the right are saying, I know I can pick up that little sweetie and
18:11make those vulnerable people feel great because I can solve it.
18:13What does Faraj say?
18:15I will sort the boats problem in two weeks.
18:17It's classically out of the Trump playbook.
18:19People that you're talking about tell lies, sell untruths about the reality of solving a
18:24problem within weeks and months.
18:25And suddenly, oh, I'm going to be a better politician that has not been able to solve
18:29Germany's problems for the past 30 years.
18:31For Germany to say it was its borders closed, it's chilling.
18:35It's absolutely chilling.
18:35It might sound chilling to you, but it doesn't sound chilling to millions of Germans.
18:39Does it sound chilling to you?
18:41No, of course it doesn't.
18:42I think Germany needs much stronger borders.
18:43Germany's engaged in an open borders experiment, which has been a disaster for Germany, as have
18:47many other European countries.
18:48Well, not for the Germany.
18:49Do you think the UK, Germany, Paris, France and the others, if you didn't have black
18:54and ethnic minority people in Europe, right, our economies wouldn't be working?
18:58And also, in terms of the informal economy, you must realise that.
19:01You want to talk about untruths, right?
19:02You want to talk about untruths?
19:03It's a demonstrable fact that the era of mass low-skilled migration has been very, very
19:07bad for European productivity.
19:09It's encouraged, it's completely discouraged investment.
19:12It's allowed industries who shouldn't have been able to.
19:15Simply not the truth.
19:15I want to bring in another voice, because, of course, we have three very animated voices
19:19around the table.
19:20But I would like to bring in another from VUB University, Professor Kamil Bernat.
19:25He actually thinks that polarisation here in Europe is not quite as bad as it is in
19:29the US.
19:29Take a listen.
19:30The institutional design is completely different.
19:32So in our cases, most European countries are more consensus-oriented democracies.
19:38Their polarisation is in general less intense because we have more than two parties.
19:42But most importantly, I think the kind of polarisation in Europe is not so moral or so identity-based
19:48yet, as it is in the United States, because there you have the Democratic Party versus
19:52the Republican Party and all other identities that people identify with fall on these lines.
19:58So you have one big us versus them polarisation in the United States at this point, which really
20:03organises all other conflicts, basically, which we don't see yet to that extent, at least
20:08here in Europe.
20:08Dr. Kamil Bernat there.
20:10Susanne, would you agree with that?
20:11Should we be more optimistic, perhaps, that consensus will prevail?
20:14Well, I think there's really good basis for consensus because also when these surveys
20:19are carried out, right, and so I see citizens engaging with them, I see citizens taking part
20:25in a variety of manifestations, I think there is a real interest in sharing what we each think
20:32is important.
20:33So that is a good starting point.
20:35I think we haven't gone as far as we could have over the past couple of years in deepening
20:40that space for conversation, because you cannot reach consensus without having that conversation.
20:45And the EU perhaps has been too complacent.
20:48Absolutely.
20:48On democracy, I think there's no way to really counteract that.
20:54Yeah, far too complacent.
20:55I agree.
20:55We need to have more conversations like this one, but I'd be wary of consensus for the
20:59simple reason that what we've seen for so long has been a fake consensus.
21:02It's been a consensus of the European institutions.
21:05It's been a consensus of the Brussels scene, of think tanks funded by the European Union of NGOs.
21:09But what about rule of law?
21:09It's been a consensus, right?
21:11This doesn't actually represent ordinary people.
21:13So I think we need a little bit more dissensus.
21:16We need a little bit more polarisation that puts the proper issues on the table that we
21:19need to have a proper debate about, because what we've had is this fake consensus which
21:23has stifled debate and stifled the ability of ordinary people to have their concerns heard.
21:26On that point, we can bring, take up this conversation to a close.
21:30Stay with us, though, here on Euronews.
21:32Shortly, we will be back to hear how EU officials went to New York this week without a clear
21:37binding climate target in their pocket.
21:39Stay with us here on Euronews.
21:48Welcome back to Brussels, my love, our weekly European politics show on Euronews.
21:54Well, this week, all eyes were on New York, where leaders from all across the globe gathered
21:58to discuss all the pressing issues of our times, and among them, climate change, with scientists
22:03warning that this summer was the hottest on record here in Europe, the stakes could not
22:07be higher for the COP30 meeting taking place in Brazil in November.
22:11EU climate watchers were furious that the EU failed to agree on their precise targets for
22:162035, and they just brought a, quote, statement of intent to New York this week.
22:21For one reaction, we checked in with Colin Roach from Friends of the Earth.
22:24It is both significant and embarrassing that the European Union is not showing up in New York
22:29with its climate target for 2035. The rest of the world requires the European Union. That's one of
22:35the world's largest emissions of greenhouse gases to show leadership. What the European Union needs
22:40to do now, first of all, is increase its ambition. It also must close the loopholes that it's proposing
22:45in its new 2040 proposals. And finally, must start delivering, really deliver on the ground for
22:51European citizens to address things like energy poverty, ensure we're investing in the climate
22:56transition for everybody, not just the rich. And we do it at a sufficient pace that we can avoid the
23:01very worst impacts of climate disaster, which are already hitting European citizens across the
23:07continent.
23:07And that's Colin Roach there. Now, the UN, of course, had told global leaders to bring those
23:12targets with them. It's a requirement of the 2015 Paris Agreement. Susanna, how bad is it that the EU
23:16had nothing in its pocket to share?
23:18Well, I remain optimistic for Balem because it is 10 years since the Paris Agreement. And while climate
23:24change is, in my view, as well as the view of the scientific consensus, undoubtedly the greatest
23:30challenge for humanity of the century, it is much stronger of a challenge for Europe than it is for
23:36other continents. Europe is actually warming much faster than other places around the world. And so
23:42it is in our absolute interest to raise the stakes in Balem and then have, indeed, a higher target for
23:50Europe. So higher NDC.
23:51There was a study out this week saying that Europe is the fastest warming continent.
23:56This summer, there was 16,000 preventable deaths and cost the European economy 43 billion. What's your
24:02take on all this?
24:03Well, I think the only thing my fellow panelists will agree with me on is that this is symptomatic of a
24:07situation that happens a lot in Europe, where the preferred kind of modus operandi is to agree
24:12targets, do sit around the table, kind of shake each other's hand, have a nice target, and then completely
24:17avoid any of the questions about how you would actually implement this, right? And so this is
24:21the thing that probably the only thing...
24:22Kick the pan down the road.
24:22And what's happened is that, this is now my take where they won't agree with me, is that the reality
24:27has begun to kick in. And the targets that were agreed, when people try and figure out how you
24:33actually translate that into action, have realised that this would mean enormous sacrifices for ordinary
24:37Europeans, enormous difficulties with energy production...
24:40How can you translate that into action? How will these targets actually impact real people?
24:44Well, that's the issue. You know, we sometimes seem to think that, you know, we could take away the
24:47polarisation debate, the far-right debate from this debate. We can't. We've had 10 years. Leaders have
24:53had this jamboree going every year, twice a year, whenever, spending lots of taxpayers' monies, but no
24:57actual practical outcome for people on the streets and communities on the ground, especially those in
25:03the, you know, Africa and Latin America and elsewhere. Now, what's happened is that the political
25:07climate for climate change, if I can call it that, has fundamentally changed. The leader of the
25:11our most powerful nations has said, it doesn't matter. Climate's not... climate change isn't
25:16happening. And you Europeans are taking this too, too much, too far. But when you set that tone,
25:21when you set that tone, it gives three or four member states in Europe, like Orban and others,
25:27to say, you know what, we're not going to have a consensus on this one. And look at that,
25:30everyone's joining our side. And this is far too... I agree with you, Suzanne. This issue is far more
25:36important than any political divide, because it's borderless. And we've seen the number of fires,
25:42the deaths, and it's only going to get worse. How many times have you been on this panel and said,
25:46oh, it's the warmest year again, and it's going to continue every summer. So something is happening.
25:50And meanwhile, yeah, President Trump this week in New York, he's called it all a hoax.
25:54Absolutely. So we already had this happening during the first Trump presidency. I was at the COP
25:58in Bonn exactly when he actually first arrived and talked about clean coal at the time, I recall
26:04distinctively. But I want to bring it back to targets. Why do targets matter? First of all,
26:09the European Union is way on track to meeting its targets. We met our 2020 targets ahead of time,
26:15and we are now meeting the 2030 targets ahead of time. So actually, targets are not there as a ceiling
26:22that we should be scared of. They're really as a sort of landing trajectory towards this cleaner
26:27technological future, which does not include clean coal, but which certainly includes a new
26:33industrial revolution. And this is why targets matter, because they drive investments. And they
26:37drive investments around the world. I agree on the targets issue, right? Okay. I mean, I'm not sure,
26:43because I don't think, you know, across the globe, the targets have been met. But in reality,
26:48what Macron has done in France has only created the bonfire of polarization because of the way he approached
26:56climate action. Jacob, what would be your ideas or proposals to attack this issue?
27:00Well, I love the phrase clean and love the phrase a new industrial revolution, which is desperately
27:05what we need, because the reality, whatever the promise is, the reality of climate policy across
27:10Europe has been the destruction of European industry and has been the adoption of measures
27:14that would put, that have put companies out of business, have put people out of jobs, and have made
27:19people feel the pain in their pocket through the fact that their energy bills are rising. So whatever kind
27:24of conversation we want to have about how to fix it. Absolutely not climate policy for that. What
27:29you can claim is the fact that we have overprotected European industry to the extent where it stopped
27:34being competitive on the global market. So this is the issue with our industrial policies at the EU level,
27:40that we weren't actually encouraging competitiveness. This is why we're having a big
27:44awakening on competitiveness right now. You can't have competitiveness without abundant cheap energy, right?
27:47And abundant cheap energy is not going to happen tomorrow. The cheapest energy in history is
27:51renewable energy. We're at war on our doorstep. We did a deal with the devil 12, 15, 20 years ago,
27:58even though everyone was warned not to take Russian gas. What do we do? We have the, you know,
28:02the foot on our throat as a result of that. That's the reality of energy prices.
28:06The climate driven lunacy told Germany to turn off all their nuclear power. You want to talk
28:10about the effects of it. Of course, the, the, the war with Russia has been a tremendous problem for
28:14you, especially Germany, but the whole of Europe, especially Germany, right? And the, but the reality
28:20is, is that you need abundant cleat, abundant and cheap energy in order to have an industrial revolution,
28:25if that's what you want. And nobody on the green side has any serious proposals for how to make that
28:30happen, right? Nobody has solved the problems of storage, of intermissancy, of all the rest of it,
28:34and that's not going to happen overnight. So if you, you can present it as the, there's no
28:38losers in this situation, but ordinary people who do the, who do the work are the losers of the work.
28:44Yeah. And I'm actually surprised to hear what I've just heard, because I've been reading reports
28:48and talking to innovators and industrial manufacturers in Europe for the past decade.
28:52And I'm actually hearing that we are actually managing to solve intermissancy. We're also deploying
28:57renewable much faster, renewables much faster than we have been. We're also developing
29:02the innovations that are actually then scaled around the world. So they are all starting
29:07in Europe. We are leaders in that regard, but it's hard. It's very hard for innovators to compete
29:12on the global scene because Europe is over cushioning its old industries, not allowing them.
29:18And on that point, Susanna, we will have to close the conversation here for more
29:21on that story. Do keep an eye on euronews.com. But for now, thank you so much to our panel
29:25and thank you so much for watching. See you soon on euronews.
29:36Hello there and welcome to Brussels, my love, our weekly European politics show
29:40on euronews. I'm Maeve MacMaham and this weekend I'm joined by Darmendra Kanani from Friends of Europe,
29:46Susanna Karp from the Foundation for Citizens' Rights and Jacob Reynolds from MCC Brussels. And
29:52together, we're taking a look back at the news of the week. And one that stood out was several
29:57European countries from France to the UK officially recognising the state of Palestine. The move
30:03infuriated the Israeli government with Prime Minister Netanyahu replying that it meant these
30:08countries openly support terrorism. Another move that really upset his government was European
30:13countries threatening to pull out of the Eurovision Song Contest unless Israel is removed. So I'm
30:18curious to hear how the panel feels about this move. Jacob?
30:22The kind of combination of these policies, and especially the one on recognising a Palestine,
30:26is a very sad development that demonstrates the degree to which Israel increasingly seems to stand
30:32in for everything that's bad in the world at the moment. And that the recognition of Palestine,
30:35which is a complete nonsensical proposition because it's not a state, has only rewarded the horrendous
30:42activities that Hamas initiated on the 7th of October, the anniversary of which we're coming up to. I'd
30:46like to have seen the fact that this anniversary, which people are going to try and almost forget
30:51about, it seems, and Hamas are being rewarded for that brutal, brutal atrocity. This isn't going to
30:56solve the issue. This isn't going to bring peace any closer. Instead, it's a kind of virtue signalling
31:00exercise for leaders, especially like Macron, who are deeply popular at home. So what they do is they
31:05go off and find an international... How do you bring an end to the genocide?
31:08How do you bring an end to the genocide? Well, there's no genocide.
31:10Innocent people... No, no, no, no. Innocent people are dying. The UN has said that you don't
31:14believe it exactly. You're not going to believe in the UN. But you should, you must know, right,
31:18independent journalists and others are reporting what's happening on a daily basis. Women and
31:22children in particular are being bombed and killed. What would you do? So you want to say,
31:27oh, oh, gosh, this is all this, the symbolic nature of, you know, not accepting Israel and all the
31:32rest of it rewarding Hamas. Innocent people are dying. What's your solution? What would you do?
31:36Well, the only solution... What would you do to stop the violence?
31:39Yeah, the only solution to the violence is that Hamas needs to release the hostages
31:42and give up its control over Gaza. Is that what's required? That we actually demolish
31:47a whole population in order that he feels satisfied through some sort of nonsense that
31:52Hamas is everywhere, which we know. And Hamas is different from the Palestinian community.
31:56Let's just get the reaction from Jacob on that question.
31:58What's required is the complete destruction of Hamas. And it's completely legitimate for Israel
32:02to go about doing that, right? So that's what needs to happen.
32:03Even if that involves killing the majority of Palestinians,
32:06who are not Hamas.
32:07It doesn't need to involve them.
32:07No, no, but that's what's happening at the moment.
32:09That is the reality on the ground. Susanna, let's bring in your view.
32:10Yes. The reason why these European member states have started recognizing Palestine,
32:14which to very many seems to be long overdue, is because they are paving the way for a two-state
32:20solution. So there is a real interest in creating the conditions that can yield negotiations in the
32:28long term, so that we can secure a peaceful future for the Middle East in the long term.
32:32You've asked a question on Eurovision, which is in a way a symbolic competition. It's,
32:38you know, kind of member states take place or countries take place voluntarily. No one is
32:42forcing anyone. So then my question is, does Israel want to take part in Eurovision? And if so,
32:47why does it not let the aid through? Because that would give, of course, a very positive
32:52signal to the European states, which are threatening to withdraw, and they would be motivated to stay on
32:58board.
32:59Do I mentor your view here on the Eurovision participation? Would that not just hit
33:03ordinary Israelis, who do not support Benjamin Netanyahu, as we've seen them on the streets?
33:08No, we have seen them on the streets, but we need more action from the diaspora across the world.
33:12And also, don't forget, Eurovision has a particular iconic, you know, sense of itself.
33:18But at the moment, when a leader, a corrupt leader at that, it continues to commit genocide,
33:25you need sanctions on every level. Every act is political, as far as I'm concerned. They should
33:29absolutely be banned from Eurovision Song Contest, because you can't say, you know,
33:32this nonsense that France and others say, it should not be, it should be cultural and not,
33:36you know, political. Why do we have LGBTQ communities participate? It's always been a political
33:41issue. If you don't stand up, the Palestinian community will be raised out. Simple as that.
33:46Let's bring in the view from the Irish Renew Europe MEP, Cynthia Newarka, who actually presented
33:51the Eurovision Song Contest in the past. I'm normally against cultural bans, because they affect
33:58artists. And artists are not the people who are dropping the bombs or pulling the trigger on the
34:04guns. But in this instance, my opinion that Israel should be boycotted is totally different, because
34:13this is a boycott against an arm of the Israeli government. It's the Israeli Broadcasting Corporation.
34:20And they have the final decision whether to participate or not. Israel has become a rogue state
34:25with thousands of Palestinian, tens of thousands of Palestinians killed. This is completely against
34:32the international and the European rule of law.
34:34Well, this is very, very appropriate that the lady says that she's usually against boycotting
34:40artists. But just in this one case where the artist happens to be a survivor and happens to be having
34:45a song that's trying to make a point about what happened on October 7th, then obviously we have
34:50to boycott this person, right? I am a firm believer that Israel has every right to participate in Eurovision.
34:55And indeed, as was said, this is supposed to be a meeting place for people.
34:58Jacob, is Netanyahu breaking international law or not? Do you understand what international
35:04law means in terms of what he's doing currently in Palestine? You know that he's broken every
35:09single international agreement on humanitarian aid accessing the place. And we have every independent
35:15party saying that actually what he's doing is breaking the law. And even this, this is before
35:20October 7th. So there's no point just referring to that tragedy. Before the October 7th, you should
35:25know, and you know this only too well, he was corrupt. There were hundreds and thousands of
35:29people on the streets calling for his demise and for his removal. But suddenly, as a result of what's
35:33happened, he's become pure and not a rule breaker.
35:37It's quite straightforward. If international law means that Israel can't take action against a
35:40terrorist group, which is claimed control of a territory and wants to, and has as its aim,
35:44the fundamental eradication of all Jewish people, then if international law wants to get away with that,
35:48then I'm happy to take the hit on that one and say that it should be international law that's
35:52changed if it means that Israel can't deal with them. It's okay on your conscience that innocent
35:56people are being bombed every day. War is obviously horrible, right? No, no, this is a particular incident
36:00where there are no rules being applied. He's a rule breaker. He's a rule breaker every single day,
36:05and you think that's acceptable. It's very easy for people to sit around saying that
36:08we should wage war as if it was some kind of like technocratic exercise where we can follow all
36:14these rules and no one will ever get killed in a war. There's a reason why after the Second World War,
36:18these international arrangements were put in place so we wouldn't face the horrendous
36:21situation we felt in the 19th, 20s and 30s. There's a reason for these agreements.
36:25Actually, the reason for the agreements after the Second World War was so that the
36:28Jewish people wouldn't be eradicated, right? And you might have forgotten that.
36:31I haven't at all. It was about human rights. Actually,
36:34fundamentally it wasn't just about one community. It's about creating an international sense of
36:39purpose and legal framework for human rights. Because what happened in the 20s and 30s,
36:43regardless whether it's Jewish or other communities, was not to have human rights.
36:46Darmendra, on that point, we can bring this conversation to a close. For more on that story,
36:50though, do take a look at euronews.com or you can download our app. Thank you so much to Darmendra
36:55Canani from Friends of Europe, Susanna Karp from Foundation for Citizens' Rights,
36:59and of course, Jacob Reynolds from MCC Brussels for being our guests. And thank you so much for watching.
37:04If you would like to share your own opinion on any of the stories we've discussed today,
37:08reach out to brusselsmylove at euronews.com. You can also find us on social media. But for now,
37:13thanks for watching. See you soon.
Be the first to comment