- 2 weeks ago
As Prime Minister Narendra Modi turned 75 on Wednesday, BJP launched a fortnight-long seva pakhwada to mark the occasion.
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00:00So let's raise the big questions. What is Narendra Modi's secret source of political dominance?
00:07Modi at 75, is his birthday now a national event? Is the Modi personality cult simply on show in a display of psychophancy as critics allege?
00:19What is Mr. Modi's biggest success and failure? Those are the big questions. Let's get straight to our talking point.
00:25And joining me now, our special guests, people who've tracked Narendra Modi as a leader for years.
00:35Joining me now, Swapandas Gupta, senior political commentator, author, someone who's been a BJP politician, also joined by Ashok Malik of the Eurasia Group.
00:45He too has tracked Mr. Modi for years. Nilanjan Mukhopadhyay joins me.
00:49He's an author who's written a well-written biography on Prime Minister Modi and we hope to be joined by Pavan Verma, author and politician, also shortly.
00:59I want to come to you, Swapandas Gupta, breaking each question one by one.
01:04What is Narendra Modi's secret source of political success and longevity?
01:09That he hasn't lost an election in more than two decades.
01:13What is the secret source of Mr. Modi at 75?
01:19Well, Rajiv, I don't think there's any secret about what explains Modi's success.
01:24I think one of the first thing is that there is an image of complete dedication, which he exudes, which is very, very important.
01:33And secondly, I think this comes across sharply in various of his election campaign, is that he rarely fights on small issues.
01:46It's always the big picture, which he's concerned with.
01:51So his positioning is that of a leader who is above the petty squabbles of either regional politics or national politics.
02:03It's these two in my mind, which actually explains why he retains a consistent appeal over the decades.
02:14And that's something which I think he is slightly unique in India for that.
02:21You're saying he rises about petty issues. Critics would say that he started off as a Hindutva hero.
02:31He was seen as this Hindu Ridei Samraat post-2002.
02:35That's how he built...
02:36No, no, Rajiv, that's not a petty issue.
02:39That is a larger...
02:40No, no, his critics see it as a divisive. I didn't say petty.
02:43His critics see it as a divisive issue.
02:45Is he seen today in that?
02:48Yes.
02:49No, no, his critics might see it.
02:51Fair enough.
02:52His critics might see all that.
02:54I am explaining it that as far as I see it,
02:58Narendra Modi's ability to articulate the Hindutva idiom,
03:03sometimes explicitly, sometimes more symbolically,
03:08is also symptomatic of his ability to address the larger issue.
03:19Hindutva is not something which is linked to the local drains or local compulsion.
03:25It's something which is a larger, which spans the whole state or whole nation.
03:31And that's really what I'm talking about.
03:34Modi is not a locally...
03:37You believe he's seen as a symbol of a kind of nationalism.
03:42Am I correct?
03:43A muscular nationalism.
03:45He is seen certainly in a national...
03:47He's seen as a national figure.
03:49He's probably seen as the only national figure in India today.
03:54There is no other parallel to him.
03:57And therefore, particularly when it comes to national elections,
04:00where Lok Sabha elections,
04:02where the question is who is going to govern the country,
04:04I think Mr. Modi has a natural and a clear advantage,
04:11which often leads to the BJP getting a majority.
04:14And when he doesn't get a majority,
04:15I mean, you'll obviously ask yourself the question,
04:182024.
04:202024 was one occasion where it was some of the local issues
04:24which diverted,
04:25which made him lose that cutting edge,
04:30which made the BJP lose that cutting edge.
04:34Whenever he presents itself as a national figure...
04:38That's an interesting perspective.
04:44Nilanjan Mukhopadhyay and Swapandas Gupta saying Modi at 75
04:48has managed to transform himself
04:51into this national cult figure.
04:53What, according to you, is there a secret sauce to it?
05:00Well, we have to look at how Mr. Modi started out first in 2001
05:05from that time onwards as Guja Chief Minister.
05:08He was able to project two definite facets of his personality.
05:12One is somebody who knew the development mantra
05:16and was able to sing it in the manner that the people wanted it.
05:20And the other was that he was able to utilize the sentiments
05:24which were risen by the Godra carnage.
05:26And thereafter, the reaction to that, the Gujarat riots, you know.
05:30So he pursued both these issues very systematically
05:34right from 2001, 2002 onwards till 2013, 14,
05:40when he was actually campaigning as, you know, for the 2014 elections.
05:45Thereafter, as Prime Minister, he has further taken these two factors forward.
05:51And the development mantra has actually transformed
05:54into a kind of a governance platform
05:56which is heavily dependent on welfare.
05:59You know, basically, it is, you know, project-oriented, you know, programs
06:06which he's pursued, which has actually delivered a lot of, you know,
06:10deliverables to the people in terms of food after COVID,
06:14various other manners in which it was given.
06:17And besides that, there has been this recurring, you know,
06:20the theme of Hindutva which has always been there.
06:24If we actually go back from 2014 onwards and track it, you know, page by page,
06:30you will find that every now and then he has returned very strongly to the Hindutva pitch.
06:36The latest being in the 15th of August Independence Day speech, you know,
06:41talking about a high-powered demographic mission,
06:44something which is for the last nearly four decades,
06:47the Sangh Pariwar has been campaigning,
06:49especially in Assam when Bala Sahib Devaras first coined the idea
06:53that the refugees have to be separated from the infiltrators.
06:58You know, it's a completely different way.
07:00The Hindu is a refugee and the Muslims are the infiltrators.
07:04Same lot of people coming, possibly for the same reasons,
07:08but they get different labels by a majoritarian political platform.
07:12You know, that is the way it has been done.
07:13So, it has continued way and Mr. Modi has actually very successfully normalized this majoritarian idea
07:21under Mr. Vajpayee and Mr. Advani, more so Mr. Advani and less Mr. Vajpayee.
07:27It got an entry, but both of them did not think that alone itself is going to be a sustainable political idea.
07:36Mr. Modi believed in it right from the beginning and he has been able to establish it.
07:41As he turned 75, he has actually turned out to be the most powerful leader.
07:46At the moment, it does not seem to be any imminent challenge faced to his political standing.
07:55So, has he normalized the rise in a way, Ashok Malik, of the political Hindu?
08:02With Narendra Modi at 75, as I said, dominant figure now at the national level for a decade,
08:08but even in the state of Gujarat prior to that, has he normalized the rise of the political Hindu?
08:16If you permit me saying this, to assess a political life which has been so long, so rich,
08:23on a milestone day, I don't think we are being fair by limiting it to a few nouns here, a few episodes there.
08:31There is a larger picture which we are missing.
08:33I would say there are three attributes to Narendra Modi which stand out and which have helped him stay on top of his game for years and decades now.
08:45Number one, Mr. Modi has grown older.
08:47He has grown in years.
08:50But his politics has not grown older.
08:53His politics has continuously and continually evolved.
08:56He is a gifted politician and a very dedicated man in the sense that he has taught himself new things.
09:05He has taught himself new subjects, new idioms.
09:09The Narendra Modi, who is a grassroots worker, did not know international economics or the importance of semiconductors.
09:16The prime minister does.
09:19The Narendra Modi, who started off with the Iktayatra, probably did not know foreign policy to the way.
09:24The prime minister, what the Narendra Modi does, and has taught himself to be a sure-footed diplomat.
09:30He has continuously evolved, continuously added to his quiver of arrows.
09:37And he has been receptive to changing public aspirations.
09:44That is what has helped him.
09:45You know, he has not imposed his politics, his ideas on the people, on his, in a sense, his consumers or his voters.
09:54He has drawn from them and responded to them.
09:58That is his number one calling card.
10:00Second, for all his faults, even his worst critics say,
10:05this man is hard-working, dedicated, sure-footed.
10:08He is the three-o'clock politician.
10:10If there's a problem, I want him there.
10:12Even his critics say that.
10:14In a time of fairly frivolous politics, not just in India, but in many parts of the world.
10:19Look at the politics of the United Kingdom.
10:21People, you know, prime ministers going off for parties in the middle of COVID.
10:25In that sort of an atmosphere, we're seeing that in the West, we're seeing that in other democracies.
10:30Narendra Modi comes across as a serious person.
10:33A serious person, serious with his job.
10:35You may not agree with his politics, but you don't doubt his seriousness.
10:40I believe those are his strongest colleagues.
10:43Okay.
10:47Pawan Verma, therefore, do we look at Mr. Modi at 75,
10:50well beyond just seeing him from the traditional way he was seen,
10:54let's say, even a decade or two ago,
10:56as I said, the rise of the political Hindu,
10:58that he's evolved according to Ashok Malik
11:01and thereby has been able to change and adapt to the aspirations of a new India,
11:07as he calls it.
11:08Or is that...
11:10Do you agree with that?
11:16Thank you, Rajdeep.
11:17I first would like to congratulate the prime minister on his 75th birthday.
11:22He has certainly emerged as a figure of history in India's democratic politics.
11:31Now, if we have to assess him in terms of his personality, persona, and his achievements,
11:37I will quickly give to you what I think are his five pluses
11:41and the five minuses, which I believe in some way have dented the image he came with in 2014.
11:50In terms of the five pluses, there's no doubt that we have rarely seen a leader in recent times
11:56with the kind of will to power he brought.
12:00Rising from the chief minister against great odds to become the prime minister
12:04and the relentless energy which he has invested in that pursuit of power,
12:11which is visible.
12:12He works 24-7 a day.
12:14That's a plus for him.
12:16Second is his eloquence.
12:18His ability to be able to address any subject and speak in a manner which has an impact on his audience.
12:25We have rarely seen leaders of that kind.
12:28I think perhaps after Atal Bihari Vajpayee.
12:32Thirdly, he has built a rapport which is based on popularity with the masses.
12:40Otherwise, no leader would have got two absolute majorities largely on his strength.
12:46Fourthly, in terms of his pluses, his project of targeted welfarism,
12:54although there is a great deal of corruption at the lower level in its implementation,
12:58but the targeted welfarism has made an impact in the building of his what you call the personality cult.
13:07And fifthly, I think he's made a contribution to the much expanded digitization of the Indian economy.
13:15Now, as against that, if you ask me, objectively, in terms of his minuses,
13:22I would put five quick things very quickly.
13:25I think he, the hopes that he brought in 2014, that he will take economic reforms,
13:33ease of doing business, to a point where India would look different in 10 years,
13:40that hope has not been fulfilled.
13:43They have been, his measures have been half-hearted.
13:46With two absolute majority, he could have done much more in terms of that, point number one.
13:53Point number two, he has injected, in my view, for the worse,
13:59the greater communalization of the social fabric and of Indian polity,
14:06far more than it was before, and in a far more pervasive sense.
14:12Third, he has brought, unfortunately, because the first thing he did in 2014
14:17was to bow before parliament, in fact, he knelt before it,
14:21a certain kind of authoritarianism, which has, in a partisan manner, weaponized
14:31otherwise institutions which were meant to be autonomous and independent
14:36under the constitution, such as the CBI, the ED, and, I would say, the election commission.
14:43Fourthly, I think that the falling standards of discourse in Indian politics
14:48ultimately take their inspiration from the leaders at the helm
14:53and Prime Minister Modi could have been more careful in ensuring that that remains
14:58because he is the Prime Minister of the whole country.
15:01And I think there he has fallen short of expectations.
15:04And finally, in terms of the economic benefits, in spite of the welfarism,
15:09there is a certain degree of alienation because of growing inequality
15:16and rising unemployment, a lopsided economy where there are more billionaires
15:23being produced than anywhere in the world, and more people falling beyond the levels
15:28of acceptable poverty.
15:31So I would say that if you look at the balance sheet, he is a figure of history,
15:36but you have to see it in perspective and then judge him in his entirety.
15:42Let me then turn to the second question I am raising today, Swapandas Gupta,
15:50that we have seen the way the birthday has been celebrated.
15:53Every celebrity, every minister putting out tweets, putting out photographs, large ads.
15:59Is this the culmination of the personality cult that Modi has become?
16:04Critics will say this is an example of authoritarianism.
16:07His supporters will say this is an element of adoration and admiration that people have.
16:13Does the truth lie somewhere in between?
16:15Or are we seeing an instinctive politician who is domineering
16:18and therefore a personality cult has grown around him?
16:23Look, Rajdeep, there is no doubt that Modi today is the tallest political leader
16:31and a person whose landmark birthday is being celebrated in this generous fashion.
16:40It's not that every birthday of Mr. Modi has been celebrated in a similar way.
16:47Today being 75 is obviously something.
16:50It's the landmark birthday that the occasion has demanded it.
16:54And secondly, the point is, at a time when for a very long time India lacked a towering figure
17:06who was a cementing force as well, Narendra Modi fulfills that role.
17:12And at 75, he is very different in stature from the Narendra Modi, which was elected in 2014,
17:30despite the opposition of the people, the types of which Pavan Verma articulated, you know,
17:37those very same criticisms were level.
17:39Today, he epitomizes something more.
17:43He epitomizes a certain power that India actually represents in the whole world.
17:51He represents the fact that not only has he modified his Hindutva, has come of age,
17:59it's the fact that he has also managed to alter Indian aspirations quite substantially
18:05and make India think very big.
18:08And I think because of all these reasons, Narendra Modi has a very special status in the minds of Indians.
18:18At a time earlier, Jawaharlal Nehru was celebrated quite generously.
18:22How is that different?
18:24How is that?
18:26But how is that different from, let's say, Devkan Barua in the 1970s saying India is Indira, Indira is India.
18:32Today, the BJP is saying the same.
18:34Isn't this much like India than the emergence of this personality cult?
18:38How is Modi's personality cult?
18:40You would want someone to say it, but the point is no one has said it.
18:46The fact is, Mr. Modi's birthday is being celebrated quite generously,
18:51but not in the same slavish manner as the time when Devkan Barua said what he did,
19:00when India was, when civil liberties had been removed and when emergency was in full plan.
19:06Today, you can say that this is cultism.
19:10You know, others will say, no, it's not.
19:12Modi is really quite something special in India.
19:15So, these are various points of view.
19:18I believe that while certain people may have celebrated his birthday,
19:23put out tributes partly because they want the attention of the powers that be,
19:28there is a genuine feeling that Mr. Modi stands for something special,
19:33and he has managed to take India to a status which was far,
19:40which certainly wasn't expected in 2014.
19:43Yes, there are shortcomings, but that has got nothing to do with the fact
19:49that Modi's own personality is today not only national,
19:54but to a very large extent, he is a commanding international figure.
19:58Of course, there is work, these are all work in progress, etc.
20:02And it is also a fact that the BJP supporters will celebrate it far more robustly
20:10and vociferously than will a lot of other people.
20:13That's only true to be expected.
20:15He's the man who's taken them to three victories.
20:18So, that is only true to be expected.
20:20No, no.
20:20Swapan, I take that point.
20:23But it's...
20:24Sure, BJP supporters celebrating is understandable,
20:27but there is a sense, Nilanjan Rukhukopadha,
20:29and if you go through Modi's life,
20:31and you've been as one of his biographers,
20:33you've seen Modi likes the idea of a public spectacle.
20:37You know, his critics will call it narcissism,
20:39but there is this obsession with the self.
20:43Is that true or not, that optics matter,
20:45the idea of a public spectacle matters to Mr. Modi
20:49and his followers' supporters?
20:50No, I would not want to, you know,
20:57fix any label from my side,
20:59but I would like to remind everybody
21:00that Mr. Advani, who possibly knew him the best,
21:04especially when he was making a mark
21:06and emerging from being a state leader to a national leader,
21:10he called him a very good event manager.
21:12So, I think that says it, you know,
21:14that Mr. Modi has actually known the benefit of using events.
21:19And let us, if we actually go back to 2013-14,
21:24when Mr. Modi was, you know,
21:26making a niche for himself permanently
21:28in the national platform.
21:30You know, it was a very well-crafted product
21:32which was publicized in a very organized kind of manner.
21:36You know, he was among the first Indian political leaders
21:39who sensed the advantage of the social media,
21:42got onto it, you know,
21:43also got about this entire and organized publicity campaign,
21:48you know, learned so much from the Obama campaign,
21:51you know, of the first Obama campaign.
21:57So, from all that, he really learned so much.
22:00So, we have to understand that,
22:02you know, we are talking about birthdays and events.
22:05You know, say, a few years back,
22:08Mr. Modi's birthday was celebrated, you know,
22:10when the Cheetah Project was launched.
22:12So, always in the last 11 years,
22:15there has always been some big synchronization
22:18of some national event with Mr. Modi's birthday.
22:21So, it is not that, you know,
22:23it is just some ordinary people doing something
22:25and, you know, it has happened on its own.
22:28It's a very well-planned manner.
22:30I'm not saying that it is not to be done.
22:32It used to be done, even I remember,
22:34as a very young, you know, child,
22:36Indira Gandhi's birthday.
22:38It's done across the world.
22:41I do remember a few occasions.
22:43We live in a multimedia age.
22:47We live in an age where political choreography does matter.
22:53So, I'm just trying to understand, Ashok Malik,
22:57do you believe that the personality cult
22:59is now even bigger than the party?
23:01That today people vote for the BJP,
23:04not necessarily because of the BJP,
23:05because of Mr. Modi,
23:06that he's become larger than life
23:08in the truest sense of the term.
23:10Rajiv, three points.
23:12One, Mr. Modi is certainly more popular
23:15than the BJP is today.
23:17There's no question of that.
23:18He has not just added to the BJP's permanent vote,
23:21he's also given it a temporary bump,
23:23which is individual and, you know, particular to him.
23:28But broadly, he's left the BJP much stronger
23:32institutionally than when he began.
23:35It's got a much wider electoral base today.
23:38Second, is politics in India today over the top?
23:44Of course it is.
23:45But politics was over the top before Mr. Modi arrived.
23:48It will be over the top after he leaves.
23:50You know, the Ranjan Mukhopathai spoke about the Cheetah event
23:56being commemorated along with Mr. Modi's birthday some years ago.
24:00You know, many years ago, Children's Day was commemorated
24:03on Pandit Nehru's birthday.
24:05It is a characteristic occasion, but it was commemorated.
24:07Mahatma Gandhi, no less, delayed the start of the Gandhi March
24:13till enough international press had arrived.
24:15It's there, it's recorded in history.
24:17And I'm not blaming anybody for that.
24:19He was maximizing the moment.
24:21And that is what politicians do.
24:22That is what intelligent statesmen do.
24:25There's nothing wrong with that.
24:27We need to realize that a milestone birthday of such a popular leader
24:34will see a certain choreography, some of it organic, some of it inorganic.
24:41We need to also recognize this epoch for what it is.
24:45In my estimation, the two most popular politicians in India,
24:50the two provinces in India, I'm sorry,
24:52the two prime ministers with the greatest mass appeal
24:55and all India popularity were Pandit Nehru in the 1950s
25:01and Narendra Modi in the past 10 years.
25:05I'm not making any comparisons.
25:06I'm not going into who was better, who was worse.
25:09I'm not going into that.
25:10I'm just saying in terms of mass appeal and all India popularity,
25:16these two epochs stand out.
25:18That is what is special about this movement politically.
25:21Interesting the way you're putting it.
25:27Pavan Verma, do you therefore see that we have arrived in this Moditva era?
25:31We are still very much in it.
25:33The prime minister is 75.
25:34He shows no signs of retiring,
25:37no going into any Magdarshak mandal,
25:39is energetic as ever, traveling across the country.
25:42Are we in a Modi era?
25:44And how would you contrast it with what was once described
25:46as the Nehruvian era,
25:48the biggest difference between that era and today?
25:51You know, I've already given the reasons
25:57why I believe that at least on the front of the preservation
26:02of a more or a less authoritarian democracy,
26:07there's a difference.
26:08I'm not saying there were not personality cults then.
26:10But talking of personality cult, Rajdeep,
26:14you see, you can't separate the man from what actually made the man.
26:19He is a man who revels in authority.
26:23Please see his tenure as chief minister of Gujarat,
26:27where he broke little opposition.
26:30In fact, he hardly ever gave enough importance even to the assembly.
26:34So, when he became prime minister with such a massive mandate,
26:41it is but natural that his personality cult was then at its peak
26:45because he had created history,
26:47but he also reveled in that personality cult.
26:51And what that has led to,
26:54and that is an observation which I see from sometimes real
26:58and sometimes apocryphal feedback is,
27:02that it has reduced the BJP,
27:05which was otherwise a very active collegium,
27:10Advani, Murali Manor Jorshi,
27:13Vajpayee, in discussion,
27:15and sometimes holding a different opinion.
27:21It has reduced the BJP to a fairly inert conformity,
27:26which I believe is a consequence of that cult.
27:30So, you benefit from it,
27:31and then there are some consequences that follow from it.
27:34As far as whether we are in a Modi era,
27:37you see, India is a country of a varying hue of political possibilities.
27:44And as one line in Urdu says,
27:48Every pinnacle has in its own genes,
27:53its own descent.
27:54So, at the moment,
27:55he is certainly the most power-towering and powerful figure.
27:59But I don't believe that we can call any particular period of history
28:03as a Modi era,
28:05in identifying it only with an individual.
28:09And there are other dangers to also a personality cult.
28:12For instance, in foreign policy,
28:14where you take personal chemistry with a leader
28:17to be, in a way,
28:19sometimes a substitute for careful strategizing.
28:23Now, these are consequences of that,
28:25but that is what has made the man.
28:27If you didn't have this will to authority,
28:31who would imagine a chief minister
28:33of a smaller state than other than Gujarat
28:36making it to the prime ministership
28:38against stalwarts like Adwani?
28:40I think you've all given us plenty of food for thought.
28:49Hopefully, as Mr. Modi cuts his birthday cake,
28:52if he at all cuts the birthday cake this evening,
28:55he listens to some of these varying thoughts.
28:57I think from all of us,
28:59we can only wish him a very happy birthday.
29:02He has been, like him or not,
29:05whichever side of the divide,
29:06you are a very gifted politician,
29:09a consummate politician
29:11when it comes to power politics.
29:13And that can be divisive,
29:15and he has been a divisive figure,
29:17but he's also been a figure
29:19who has to be understood at different levels.
29:23You need to understand Narendra Modi,
29:27and therefore,
29:28he remains a figure of enduring fascination.
29:3275 not out, Mr. Modi,
29:35and we only wish you a very happy birthday.
29:39Ashok Malik, Pawan Verma,
29:41Nilanjan Mukhopadhyay,
29:42and Swapandas Gupta for joining me here.
29:44Thank you very much.
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