- 5 months ago
I, Witness is not just about interviews. Shahid Siddiqui was inside 10 Janpath on the night Sonia Gandhi received confirmation of Rajiv Gandhi’s assassination.
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00:00:00The Dambam's wife, he spoke to her and she confirmed that in the blast Rajivdi is no more.
00:00:07The way Priyanka was able to face the situation, Rahul was not here.
00:00:12Priyanka, a 18 or 19 year old girl, took command of everything, started telling kya karna hai, kya nahi karna hai.
00:00:20I could see that she has this ability to overcome her emotions and feelings, which is amazing.
00:00:26Amar Singh loved to do everything on a big scale.
00:00:29And the Sefai, Mahal Sir used to have Amitabh Bachchan, all the styles.
00:00:33Everything was Bollywood.
00:00:34A 3A, the Ambani, Amar Singh and Amitabh.
00:00:41Three A's of Indian media power games.
00:00:45Bollywood, industrialist and politician.
00:00:48Of everyone that you've interviewed with all the Prime Ministers, if I can ask you,
00:00:53there was someone that you admired and you came out of that interview and you changed your point of view.
00:00:58Kya yeh etna sahi nahi nahi hai.
00:01:00My interview with Mr. Narendra Bodhi, I had tremendous dislike for him.
00:01:07I was very critical of him in my paper on a lot of, I used to appear in a lot of channels, I used to attack him.
00:01:12But after interviewing him, many of his answers were a bit convincing.
00:01:18And because I said, why did you bring the bodies to Amadabad, why they were taken around?
00:01:25He said, look, the train was coming to Amadabad.
00:01:28That means people were coming to Amadabad, so where would I have taken them?
00:01:31That is the reason he gave an answer.
00:01:37I believe that he should have apologised, as he should have taken the responsibility, the moral responsibility.
00:01:44And especially, riots may, he may not have been responsible for the riot to take place, but after the riots, the control which should have been there.
00:01:52Hello and welcome, you are watching Booked, and we have a very special guest with us, journalist, author, politician as well.
00:02:08But now he is with us in the form of an author with his brand new book, Eyewitness, Mr. Shahid Siddiqi.
00:02:14Thank you for taking the time out and joining us in the studio for Booked.
00:02:17It is our pleasure, it is our honour to have you.
00:02:19Sir, first up, Mr. Siddiqi, tell us a bit about your book, Eyewitness, because with whatever I have read, you seem to have chronicled every big political event, political leader over the last many decades, where you have been a witness to that as well.
00:02:37Not really.
00:02:38I have written only about incidents where I was a witness either, or I knew intimate details through people who were directly involved.
00:02:50So, I can't write the history of independent India of 77 years in one book.
00:02:56True.
00:02:56So, it is only about the incidents, points and leaders with whom I had the opportunity to work closely, or my father was able to work and I was able to get this first-hand information from these people.
00:03:11Or they used to come to my house, because my house in Delhi, was not just a newspaper office, it was the centre of political activity, social activity, cultural activity.
00:03:23The IPTA theatre people were always there, the left people were there, all the leaders of the Congress party, they were discussing in another room.
00:03:34There were six, seven, eight rooms, and every room was occupied by one group or the other.
00:03:39So, it was a very fascinating environment in which I was able to see India emerging as a nation, as a society, as a wonderful country.
00:03:51Siddiqui Saab, you say not all political events, but it's very enviable for a journalist, you know, for me to look at your, you know, your trajectory,
00:04:01because every near big event, in the form either of a politician or a journalist, you've been part of it, and intimately, if not covered it, then been witness to it.
00:04:12Yes.
00:04:13Is that correct?
00:04:14Yes.
00:04:14I have been very fortunate that I, as a kid, was able to meet, not once, but few times, Pranjit Jawaharlal Nehru, and then I interviewed Mrs. Indra Gandhi.
00:04:28The day, after emergency, I was the first and the only one who interviewed her.
00:04:33She was not ready to talk about emergency and what happened, and she refused an interview to every journal, every journalist in the world.
00:04:41But she decided to give an interview to me.
00:04:43So, that was the most important interview for me when Mrs. Gandhi, in 1977, decided to give an interview to Nei Dunia and to me.
00:04:51So, that was my biggest, you know, achievement as a journalist, although I was teaching in Delhi University at that time.
00:04:58I was teaching political science at that time.
00:05:00And so, then onward to, I worked very closely with Rajivji, but I also was involved in the making of Janta Party.
00:05:09Because after, because my father was arrested during emergency, I also had to face the wrath of emergency.
00:05:18And as a result, we came close to Janta Party people when emergency was lifted and they came into power.
00:05:23And I was involved with Babu Jagjeevan Ram and Bahuguna Ji as a young man, doing odd things for them, running around.
00:05:30So, I have always been an activist, not just a journalist, from my very young days.
00:05:37The reason is that my father was involved in the freedom movement.
00:05:40And he was one of those people who moved from Lahore to Delhi in 1946, 47, instead of going from, at the time of partition, going from here to the other side.
00:05:51Because he believed in Gandhi, he believed in independent India, secular India, and therefore, he decided to, you know, migrate from Lahore to Delhi.
00:06:03It's, you know, your journey has been fascinating.
00:06:06But tell me, Siddiqui Saab, do you hold the, you know, like I said, as a journalist, it's a privilege.
00:06:13Yes.
00:06:13But also the honor of possibly interviewing nearly every Prime Minister.
00:06:17Virtually, yes, except, let's say, Muradji Bhai Lesai, my father interviewed him, not me, but I interviewed I.K. Gujral Saab, who was a family friend.
00:06:33Dev Gola Ji, very, I knew him before he became Prime Minister.
00:06:38Chandrasekhar Ji, I had known for decades as a young man when he became the President of Janta Party in 1977.
00:06:47So, from 77, I had known him.
00:06:50Then, of course, Rajiv Gandhi, I worked very closely with him.
00:06:55So, and then I was very fortunate that there was no chance of my interviewing Nayinder Mohanji, sorry, Nayinder Mohanjiji.
00:07:06And I got a chance to interview him as well.
00:07:09We'll talk about that interview.
00:07:10We'll talk about that interview.
00:07:11It was somebody who's practically interviewed nearly, not nearly, sir, nearly, all Prime Ministers.
00:07:15Yes, but not just interviewed.
00:07:18I have worked with many of them very intimately and those were the times when the politicians used to take people like us into confidence.
00:07:27Access hodata, real access hodata.
00:07:29Not only access.
00:07:30They used to discuss with us, I'm going to do this.
00:07:33How will people react?
00:07:35What is your gut feeling?
00:07:36And we honestly used to tell them.
00:07:38And we, some, we, and they knew that we will keep the confidence.
00:07:42We will not reveal it.
00:07:44We will not write about it.
00:07:45I have written about many things now which I did not at that time.
00:07:49At that time, right.
00:07:49Yes, those were schools, but I never wrote about them because those were discussed with me in confidence.
00:07:55So, those were different times when there was an understanding between the political leadership and the media.
00:08:04And not only me, I, I remember the editor of Times of India, George Varghese or Kuldeep Nayyar.
00:08:10Kuldeep Nayyar worked with Lal Bhadu Shastri ji and in fact with two Prime Ministers, he was a media advisor.
00:08:16So, many, many of the editors and top editors were always taken into confidence by the Prime Ministers and others.
00:08:24Which is the case now?
00:08:26Which is not the case anymore.
00:08:27Which is not the case anymore.
00:08:29There is, you know, what can I say, a different kind of relationship between the media and the political, politically powerful people.
00:08:38It's no more equal relationship.
00:08:40But the terms of engagement, Siddiqui Sahib, have changed over time.
00:08:44It's not something new.
00:08:45Yes, it has.
00:08:45It's over time.
00:08:46Yes, over time.
00:08:46Slowly, gradually, they've changed.
00:08:48See, everything has changed, so things change.
00:08:50So, things have changed here also.
00:08:51But I was very fortunate that I was able to, you know, get the confidence of some of these very, very important people who played such an important role in making this country.
00:09:03Because India was evolving in very, very difficult circumstances.
00:09:08And my belief is that every Prime Minister, every politician has contributed to the making of India.
00:09:13They have made mistakes.
00:09:14But at the same time, they have worked very hard to really bring India where it is today.
00:09:20And I was very fortunate to be quite close to Atalji also and worked with him as well before he was the Prime Minister and when he became the Prime Minister.
00:09:29Siddiqui Sahib, we'll separate for a brief while your political journey and your journalistic journey.
00:09:34But let's, you know, I'm going to hark back to many of the interviews that you've spoken of in the book there and you've elucidated that.
00:09:42But let me ask you a larger question.
00:09:44Has there been any event or any interview that you, in this book, which you felt you were very emotional about?
00:09:54Or, you know, that one interview or that one event that you have chronicled in your book?
00:10:01There are many, many, many events where I'm extremely emotional about.
00:10:06Of course, my interview with Mrs. Indira Gandhi, my mother was very emotional because he, as soon as I came back after interviewing her,
00:10:16she embraced me and for her, Indira Gandhi was something great.
00:10:21Although, when I got this message from Fotodardi that Mrs. Gandhi will be giving an interview to you,
00:10:28I was reluctant and I went and asked my father that should I interview her?
00:10:35And my father said, look, Indira Gandhi did her job by sending me to prison.
00:10:40I did my job by going to the prison.
00:10:42You do your job by interviewing her and it's always good to interview with somebody with you.
00:10:47You do not agree fully.
00:10:49So, it was most emotional yet most challenging.
00:10:51Yes, but my most, if you talk of most emotional moment.
00:10:56Event, yeah.
00:10:56Yes, that is my, when Knight Rajiv Gandhi was assassinated.
00:11:02Assassinated.
00:11:03Because I had become quite close to him once he was out of power and working very closely with him.
00:11:11And just a week before his death, on 14th of May, he called me and he said that we are forming the government, etc., etc.,
00:11:20and you have to be involved and then I don't want, I always told him, look, I can't be with you.
00:11:26Or your party because my paper will suffer.
00:11:28I want to keep my freedom.
00:11:30He said, I don't want to hear anything.
00:11:32You resign from your paper, etc., etc.
00:11:33And then a day before he was leaving, that is on the 19th, 19th he called me and he said,
00:11:40I am going to Tamil Nadu, come with me, you will enjoy the campaigning there.
00:11:45It's like a, you know, drama, big show, you will enjoy it.
00:11:49I said, look, I have to go to Shah Jahampur.
00:11:51I am campaigning there for Jatinder Prasad.
00:11:54He said, oh, yes, he is losing, so go there.
00:11:56On 20th, he said, tomorrow I am voting and going to Andhra and then to Tamil Nadu.
00:12:02And I was, I proceeded to Shah Jahampur, that is on 20th.
00:12:06But in Shah Jahampur night, I was a bit, you know, disturbed.
00:12:10And next morning, although I went there for three days, next morning, I just drew back to Delhi.
00:12:17And read here in Delhi, I called George, Vincent George, that I want to speak to Rajiv Ji.
00:12:22He said, you can do it only after 10.30 because he will be available in the circuit house on telephone.
00:12:28Why did you want to speak to Rajiv Gandhi?
00:12:29Because a riot had taken place in Meirat on 20th May during the polling and nearly 70 people had died.
00:12:37So I wanted to send a delegation to, because these riots during the camp election have an impact.
00:12:43For our viewers who haven't, you know, listeners who haven't read the book, you were associated with what party at that point?
00:12:50No, I was not associated.
00:12:51I was working with Rajiv Gandhi as a friend.
00:12:55I was not a member of Congress party.
00:12:58But he said, you know, I was a member of the National Integration Council and there I questioned VP Singh.
00:13:04And Rajiv Gandhi said, look, Shahid, I need your help.
00:13:07You must come and help me.
00:13:08I said, the only way I can help you is I'll tell you what I believe in because your problem is that you only listen to what you want.
00:13:14I mean, people come and tell you what you want to hear.
00:13:17And they just first got what is your view and then they come and, you know, tell you all that.
00:13:23So that's where we became close and I started campaigning with him, helping him, not as a party member, but as a friend.
00:13:32So on 21st, I reached Delhi, I talked to George and I went to sleep.
00:13:40Suddenly my wife woke me up.
00:13:41He said, there is a phone call that listened to BBC.
00:13:44There is some blast in Tamil Nadu.
00:13:46So I immediately, you know, went to BBC and there was the news that there is a huge blast and many people have died.
00:13:55Now still, there was no confirmation of Rajiv Gandhi's death.
00:14:00I immediately rushed to 10th Janpat.
00:14:03And at that time, I was among few people who had direct entry into the house.
00:14:09There was no security required.
00:14:11No, I just walked in.
00:14:12And Sonia Ji was standing in George's room.
00:14:16George's room was a very small.
00:14:18What time was this?
00:14:19This was about 10.30 in the night.
00:14:22And it was a, it's a small room with just one table and two chairs for him.
00:14:27And she, she was standing there and George was trying to connect somebody on phone.
00:14:32And then he passed on the phone to Sonia Ji.
00:14:36And Sonia Ji spoke.
00:14:38Later, I learned it was Nadini Chidambram, Chidambram's wife.
00:14:44He spoke to her and she confirmed that in the blast Rajiv Ji is no more.
00:14:51It was confirmed from her, his Lotto shoes.
00:14:54And he collapsed and I was standing behind her.
00:14:58I got hold of her and suddenly Priyanka came rushing and we took her inside the house.
00:15:06And the whole night I was there.
00:15:08And that was the most emotional moment for me.
00:15:12And it has always been because he, he recommended these Lotto shoes to me.
00:15:16I had, I had never bought, I had not heard the word Lotto.
00:15:20He, he said, I went with him to Vancouver in Canada.
00:15:24And he said, Lotto shoes lene jara hon chalo.
00:15:27So he got me a Lotto, pair of Lotto shoes.
00:15:29And I was never, never able to wear them because he was recognized only by his shoes.
00:15:35So that, that moment was the most emotional moment.
00:15:39And it was also because the way Priyanka was able to face the situation.
00:15:44Rahul was not here.
00:15:46Sonia ji collapsed and was not in any position to take, you know, command any position or situation.
00:15:57And Priyanka, 18 or 19 year old girl, took command of everything, started telling kya karna hai, kya nahi karna hai.
00:16:05And next day, when the luggage of Rajiv Gandhi came, I was standing behind her and the car came.
00:16:14And she said, two backs have come, three had gone, why two, take out the third.
00:16:19So I could see that she has this ability to overcome her emotions, her feelings, which is amazing.
00:16:26Because I was not able to do that.
00:16:28I was, I had collapsed.
00:16:29I was virtually crying constantly, shaking myself.
00:16:35And Sonia Gandhi ji was in no shape.
00:16:37She was in no shape.
00:16:38She was.
00:16:40And Priyanka Gandhi took charge of the entire.
00:16:42Took charge of everything, which is, which was amazing.
00:16:44So that was one moment which is in the book and which was one of the most emotional moments for me personally.
00:16:53And as a journalist, as an observer, whatever you call it.
00:16:57Shai ji, have you ever spoken about this to Priyanka ji?
00:17:02Yes, I have.
00:17:02I have.
00:17:03I have spoken about this to Priyanka ji.
00:17:05And Priyanka ji, in fact, corrected me.
00:17:07I said, you were 17.
00:17:08She said, no, no, I was 19 at that point.
00:17:10So from her, I learned that she was 19.
00:17:12And I told her that this is what was there that night.
00:17:18So anyway, yeah.
00:17:20This was clearly one of the most emotional.
00:17:24Yes.
00:17:24To, to, to bear witness to an event.
00:17:26Yes, bear witness to.
00:17:27And which you've written about.
00:17:29And I always felt sorry that I didn't go with him.
00:17:32Because I felt I should have gone.
00:17:35I should have been there this way or that way.
00:17:38Because I had developed great love and regard and affection for Rajiv Gandhi.
00:17:43And I always thought that Rajiv, you see, Rajiv Gandhi was not a politician.
00:17:47He was not interested in politics.
00:17:48And I've written in the book that he was the real accidental prime minister.
00:17:52He wouldn't have been in politics if Sanjay Gandhi had not died in an accident.
00:17:57He would not have become the prime minister if Mrs. Gandhi had not been assassinated.
00:18:03Rajiv Gandhi never wanted power.
00:18:05Rajiv Gandhi never wanted to be in politics.
00:18:08He was forced into it because of the situation.
00:18:11And even after becoming MP from Ameethe after the death of Sanjay,
00:18:15he, he always avoided doing any active politics.
00:18:20He, Mrs. Gandhi was quite annoyed with that.
00:18:22Right.
00:18:22And Arun Rehru took over the place of Sanjay.
00:18:27And because Rajiv was not…
00:18:28You talk about Arun Rehru's role in the 1984 riots as well in the book.
00:18:32Yes, I have written about it.
00:18:33Yes.
00:18:33I have written about it because this is what…
00:18:36Do you blame him?
00:18:38I don't blame him.
00:18:39I don't blame him.
00:18:40But what I heard, H.R. Bhardwaj, for two reasons I will question him.
00:18:45That H.R. Bhardwaj, who was the law minister and very close to the family,
00:18:52he told me that when the news of Mrs. Gandhi's assassination came,
00:18:58he immediately rushed to the medical institute.
00:19:02And he was there in the lobby.
00:19:03And suddenly, Arun, people were standing outside shouting and, you know, wailing.
00:19:12Arun, Nehru and Fotidar, they came down from the stairs.
00:19:16And they looked at the crowd.
00:19:19And they said,
00:19:20Instigation.
00:19:27That was instigation, number one.
00:19:29Number two, even if I don't believe H.R. Bhardwaj, say, he was not right.
00:19:35Then the question is, people blame only Rajiv Gandhi.
00:19:39Why?
00:19:40Rajiv Gandhi's mother had been assassinated.
00:19:42Technically, he was the prime minister.
00:19:44But actually, he was in a shock.
00:19:46He was standing with the body of his mother for next two, three days.
00:19:51He was de jure prime minister, but not de facto prime minister.
00:19:54De facto prime minister was Arun, Nehru.
00:19:56And home minister was Shri Narasimha Rao.
00:19:58And Delhi government was totally under the Delhi home minister.
00:20:02There was no state government.
00:20:03So these two people have never been blamed, never been questioned.
00:20:07And I find it very surprising.
00:20:08People just want to blame Rajiv Gandhi.
00:20:10Of course, Rajiv Gandhi is to be blamed technically.
00:20:13Because he was morally hit and he took the responsibility.
00:20:16And therefore, he went into an agreement with Sant Longoal and that agreement took place.
00:20:23But Arun Nehru, number one, he instigated.
00:20:27Number two, he was for next, quite some time, he was the de facto prime minister of the country.
00:20:35He was controlling everything.
00:20:36Rajiv Gandhi was not.
00:20:39You talk about the most emotional moment of, you know, being witness to so many years of political history.
00:20:48What would be the most challenging, Siddiqui Sahib?
00:20:51Challenging?
00:20:51For you, for as a journalist or a politician or a witness to…
00:20:57One, two moments were challenging for me.
00:21:03One was when I had this differences with Mr. Arun Nehru.
00:21:10He was minister for internal security.
00:21:11You didn't like Arun Nehru much.
00:21:13No, no, it's not a question of liking.
00:21:14It's a question of his misusing power.
00:21:17He was extra-constitutional authority after Sanjay.
00:21:21He was going roughshod over everybody.
00:21:24He was…
00:21:25And in 1980s, he was misusing his power in Punjab.
00:21:32Bhindrawala was a creation of…
00:21:34Of course, Mrs. Gandhi knew it.
00:21:36But Bhindrawala was their creation of…
00:21:38Ghani Zahil Singh and Arun Nehru.
00:21:44They were manipulating Punjab.
00:21:46They were manipulating Kashmir.
00:21:47They wanted to bring down Farouk's government who had won the election in 1983.
00:21:51So he called me to his office and he said,
00:21:56Print these pictures of Farouk Abdullah with Shabana Azmi,
00:22:00which is not really anything bad about it.
00:22:03I refused to do that.
00:22:05I said, why do you…
00:22:06My question was, why do you want to bring down…
00:22:08I knew that he was trying to bring down Farouk's government
00:22:10and he was bringing his brother-in-law, Gul Shah, as the chief minister.
00:22:18I said, don't do this.
00:22:19People of Kashmir will lose faith in democracy.
00:22:21They will lose faith in the constitution.
00:22:23Don't do this because it is not in the national interest.
00:22:26He got very annoyed.
00:22:27He said, you are going to teach me democracy.
00:22:28You are going to teach me national interest.
00:22:30What do you want?
00:22:31I'll give it to you.
00:22:32He told his ministers, kya chahiyeh isko deyado.
00:22:35I got very annoyed that he is offering me some bribe or something for printing these pictures.
00:22:41So I walked out and then I went to Kashmir and I exposed his whole game because a lot of money was going from here to buy MLAs and all that.
00:22:49That whole game I exposed and then he got very annoyed with me.
00:22:53And when he was minister of internal security, he and he told me, tere ko mein sabak shikhhaun ga, I'll teach you a lesson.
00:22:59And there were very few media people who had the guts to stand up to either Mrs. Gandhi.
00:23:07I stood up as a young man during emergency.
00:23:10I went to jail during emergency.
00:23:12I went and then it was not the first time that I was going to jail because of my honest views.
00:23:18And then Arun Nehru said sabak shikhhaun ga, when he was minister of internal security, he wanted to put me behind, but there was nothing against me.
00:23:26But I had done an interview in 84 with some, what was his name?
00:23:37When you were arrested for TADA.
00:23:38When you were arrested under TADA.
00:23:40Yes.
00:23:40Yes.
00:23:41Khalistan leader.
00:23:43Leader, yeah.
00:23:44Who claimed to be the president of his so-called Khalistan government.
00:23:49So, they, TADA was introduced in 86, but they went back to 84, took out that paper and said that, look, he has interviewed.
00:24:03And you think Arun Nehru was behind this?
00:24:04It was, absolutely he was.
00:24:05He, I was, I came to know.
00:24:07And I was put behind bars.
00:24:09So.
00:24:09Release 15 days after that.
00:24:11No, nearly 25 days.
00:24:1325 days.
00:24:14But out of those 25 days, I went to jail on nearly, I think, 24th of October.
00:24:21On 15th of November, Arun Nehru was thrown out of the cabinet.
00:24:25He said, tujhe ma footpath pe launga.
00:24:28He was on the footpath.
00:24:29And I was released a week after that because the court didn't find anything objectionable in the interview.
00:24:37And you had the entire journalist community standing by you.
00:24:39Yes, they stood up with me, Kuldeep Nagyarji, the Eriters Guild, and Delhi University people.
00:24:46And Delhi University, because I was a university professor.
00:24:49So, Delhi University duty event on a strike because they all knew me that I had been fighting for issues.
00:24:56And never, never done anything which was not in the national interest.
00:24:59So, put me behind bars.
00:25:01And the TADA was something extremely ridiculous.
00:25:04And even the judiciary found that.
00:25:05And I was…
00:25:06So, you speak of this as one of the most challenging.
00:25:08What was the other?
00:25:09This was the most challenging thing.
00:25:11Other challenging was with Mr. Amar Singh.
00:25:14When Mr. Amar Singh, I resigned from the Samajwadi party on the nuclear issue thing.
00:25:19And Amar Singh was caught with his hands red-handed with buying MPs and offering them money.
00:25:29And that they went to…
00:25:29And you were with the…
00:25:30And you were, yeah.
00:25:31And your association with the party.
00:25:33No, I had resigned from the party.
00:25:35Resigned, but you still…
00:25:36So, I had resigned from the party.
00:25:37So, what he did was, his P.A. Sanjeev something was caught in the video.
00:25:43So, he said…
00:25:45He said, this was a man of Shahid.
00:25:47And then he made a video.
00:25:49A fake video.
00:25:51Where he…
00:25:52That man comes to my office.
00:25:53Walks out with a paper in his hand.
00:25:55Doing like this.
00:25:56If I give him a secret instruction, he won't walk out like this.
00:25:59So, and then went to Arun Jetli's house, came out with heavy bags and went to the houses of these MPs who were bought.
00:26:07So, they said, this is the video we got of Shahid Siddiqui, giving the names who are to be bought.
00:26:16And then…
00:26:17So, I got very upset with that.
00:26:20And then the reason was that Sanjeev had vanished.
00:26:25Police was searching for him.
00:26:27So, I was a bit afraid that if they may finish him off because he was caught red-handed with…
00:26:35I think Rajdeep had done a sting on that.
00:26:40And so, I thought if he is bumped off, then I will have a problem.
00:26:45Bumped off?
00:26:46I had this fear because he was not to be found anywhere that Sanjeev had vanished.
00:26:50Who would you think would have bumped him off?
00:26:52I mean, in politics, so many bumping does take place and Ammar Singh was not new to anything of this sort.
00:26:59That's it.
00:27:00He was…
00:27:01You are actually saying, Siddiqui Sahib, that Ammar Singh was capable of bumping people off.
00:27:05Ammar Singh was capable of anything.
00:27:07I am not saying he was capable of bumping, but he was capable of anything.
00:27:11He was able to bribe, you know, Hillary Clinton.
00:27:17And there is a book on that.
00:27:19Buy her off.
00:27:21He was an international fixer.
00:27:23Not a…
00:27:24He was able to influence Amitabh Bachchan as well as Anil Ambani as well as buy off Manmohan Singh and Ammar Patel.
00:27:36You were part of the Samajwadi party at one point of time.
00:27:39Yes.
00:27:40Ammar Singh at one juncture was this enigma of sorts who could do anything.
00:27:44Yes.
00:27:45And you are actually saying that he was capable of it.
00:27:47Yes.
00:27:48Because you just spoke of, you know, maybe there is no, you know, you are not insinuating anything but…
00:27:51No, he made a fake video of me and Arun Jatli.
00:27:56Although I did not know Arun Jatli much.
00:27:58I had hardly met him.
00:27:59What fake video?
00:28:00I told you about the fake video.
00:28:01Right.
00:28:02That he made a video…
00:28:03That which you told me.
00:28:04Yes.
00:28:05He was caught with his hands in the till and he wanted to show that it was Shahid Siddiqui who had planned the whole thing because I had designed from the party.
00:28:17I designed from the party on the nuclear deal.
00:28:20I opposed the nuclear deal.
00:28:21I thought nuclear deal is not in the national interest.
00:28:23Although for nearly four years, I was the main spokesperson of the party on every channel in the parliament debates.
00:28:30I was speaking on the nuclear deal.
00:28:32I had done extensive study on the nuclear energy question or renewable energy question.
00:28:39And I had gone to United States.
00:28:41I had spoken to Nick Burns who was the point man for President Bush on the nuclear deal.
00:28:48I had meetings with Condoleezza Rice.
00:28:50I was actively involved in this issue.
00:28:53You quit the Samajwadi party.
00:28:54I was the General Secretary of the party.
00:28:56Yeah.
00:28:57And Amar Singh was also General Secretary.
00:28:59And you quit because you didn't agree with the nuclear deal and Samajwadi party supporting it.
00:29:03No.
00:29:04The problem came when he said you have to defend it on every channel.
00:29:06Who said?
00:29:07Amar Singh.
00:29:08I said I don't want to defend it because I have been opposing it for the last four years.
00:29:11And suddenly it is not in the national interest.
00:29:13How can I defend it?
00:29:14He said we have to say what we have to do.
00:29:17He spoke to me as if we are his servant.
00:29:19I refused to take that.
00:29:21And then I resigned from the party.
00:29:24And after he resigned from the party and he was caught with this incident where these MPs went with bundles of money to the parliament and put it on the table of the speaker and said that Amar Singh had bought them to vote for Manmohan Singh's government.
00:29:44And I was shocked that Mr. I am sure Prime Minister Manmohan Singh knew what was happening and Amar Patel was also involved.
00:29:51So honest Prime Minister like Manmohan Singh allowed this kind of thing to happen and to remain in power buying of MPs with money.
00:30:00And once he was caught and the sting operation was done by one channel, he wanted to blame it on me because I had resigned from the party.
00:30:10Hmm.
00:30:11But he could not do that.
00:30:12He was in fact arrested later on.
00:30:14And another very interesting thing I will tell you.
00:30:17When he was to be arrested, he called me, although I had not spoken to him.
00:30:25I was very angry with him.
00:30:27He called me.
00:30:28He said, Shahid bhai, aapke ghara ana chaata hon mein.
00:30:31I said, why did I say, ana chaata hon mein?
00:30:33Aapse maafi maang na hai?
00:30:34I said, koi maafi nahi.
00:30:35Nahi nahi, mein aana chaata hon.
00:30:36I said, okay, come to my house.
00:30:38He came to my house, sat down and took out a slip from his pocket and wrote,
00:30:45Mujhe maaf kar dije, mein aapne ko bachane ke liye sab jhur bola, lekin galti ho gai.
00:30:50And he passed the slip to me.
00:30:52And he was not talking to me.
00:30:54And once I had read it, I started laughing.
00:30:58And he took the slip from, put it in his pocket, wrote another slip.
00:31:01So he was afraid that I'll be, like his style of things, I'll be tapping the…
00:31:07Discussion.
00:31:08Oh, he thought you were going to…
00:31:09Yes.
00:31:10Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:31:11Pass it on to the police or something like that.
00:31:13And I was, I was, it was ridiculous.
00:31:15So, it was such a ridiculous thing.
00:31:18So the whole meeting, you had, Amar Singh didn't say a word.
00:31:21He didn't say a word.
00:31:22But he kept writing chits and giving it to you.
00:31:24You must have said something.
00:31:26I was told, I'm like, you must have said something.
00:31:27I was like, you can tell Kamal, you have asked me if I forgot, leave it.
00:31:31No, no.
00:31:32Please, don't say this to the police, don't tell this to you.
00:31:35They all write it in the written.
00:31:36And then they'll keep it in the jail.
00:31:39Because he didn't want to, you know…
00:31:42To be, if you were recording…
00:31:43Influencing a witness.
00:31:45I was a witness.
00:31:46Yes.
00:31:47So, he, he, if I had put it on record, then it would have been influencing the witness.
00:31:52So, his lawyer must have told him.
00:31:53Must have told him.
00:31:54But he was afraid that I will go against him.
00:31:57But he was, I had old association with him.
00:32:02When he, he was working as nobody in Delhi.
00:32:06And he used to come to me, yaar mujhe Jatanda Prasad se milwado, mujhe AICC ka member banwado kind of thing.
00:32:12So, I knew him from those days.
00:32:14So, I, I, I didn't, I'm, I knew that it, he is a fixer.
00:32:20And I didn't expect much from a fixer.
00:32:22He was not a politician.
00:32:23But I must say, at one point, he was the, one of the most powerful man in India, not just in politics.
00:32:31He was controlling Indian business, corporate world.
00:32:34Bollywood.
00:32:35He was controlling Bollywood.
00:32:37He was controlling the media.
00:32:39And then he went on to control American politics.
00:32:43There is a book, I have mentioned it here.
00:32:45Trump, in his last election, brought out that book, that he went and bribed Hillary Clinton for, for voting for the nuclear deal.
00:32:56And, and.
00:32:57Do you believe it?
00:32:58Yeah.
00:32:59And, and, and, and, and, and he, he himself said, ha, mani kia, par it was not my money.
00:33:04It was someone, because I have a lot of friends, some friends had given it to her.
00:33:08But I had to influence it in the, in terms of the nation.
00:33:11So I influenced her to, because he was also opposed to the deal.
00:33:15And I had spoken to many of the senators in America.
00:33:18They were equally opposed to the deal.
00:33:20And I thought that nuclear deal will only, you know, control, we won't have any energy security from the nuclear.
00:33:30Right.
00:33:31Plants.
00:33:32We will, it will be controlled more by the Americans and by the global, you know, nuclear lobbies.
00:33:40How did it all, because, you know, how detrimental, A, was Amr Singh to the Samajwadi party?
00:33:47He was, you see, Samajwadi party was a party of the farmers, of the poor, of the, it was, it had emerged.
00:33:54It was the party which had emerged as the, one of the most powerful parties in the country because of its different style of working.
00:34:02And it, it has cut down Congress to size, to others to size, but once Amr Singh entered, he turned it into a five-star corporate kind of party,
00:34:16which was not the style of a Samajwadi party.
00:34:19And in the process, Samajwadi party and Mulayam Singh also lost his credibility to some extent.
00:34:24I remember when I joined the party in 99, I think, 99, first meeting of the executive national council meeting took place in Agra.
00:34:35And it was in Mughal Sheraton.
00:34:37And I said, what is this?
00:34:39Because I was in the Congress, never a party holds a meeting in a five-star hotel.
00:34:45And of all the parties, Samajwadi party holding a national…
00:34:50Thanks to Amr Singh.
00:34:51Yeah, thanks to Amr Singh.
00:34:53Because Amr Singh loved to do everything on a big scale.
00:34:56It was everything was Bollywood.
00:34:57And the Sefai Mahoud, sir, used to have Amitabh Bachchan and all the styles.
00:35:00Everything was Bollywood.
00:35:01Everything was Bollywood.
00:35:02And shall I tell you the story how he came close to Amr Singh and to Amitabh Bachchan?
00:35:07Sure.
00:35:08Yes.
00:35:09You see, after Rajiv Gandhi lost elections in 1989, Amitabh Bachchan was terrified that there will be cases against him because he was close to Rajiv Gandhi.
00:35:22And because they were going against Rajiv Gandhi, they would also go against him.
00:35:26And he was already facing income tax issues and a lot of problems over there.
00:35:32So he wanted to reach out to VP Singh government.
00:35:35Hmm.
00:35:36So one day I received a call and we didn't have these phones.
00:35:40We had the regular line.
00:35:42Trump call.
00:35:43Yes.
00:35:44I received a call from Amitabh Bachchan, which was his style.
00:35:48Did you believe it?
00:35:49Amitabh Bachchan is actually calling you.
00:35:50I didn't believe it.
00:35:51I didn't believe it.
00:35:52I said, who Amitabh Bachchan?
00:35:53Amitabh Bachchan said I tell him I cannot get by going by running off.
00:35:56Why do you mean you get by coming?
00:35:58They were real .
00:36:00And it was absolutely true.
00:36:01As I said, I said, even after being there, I said to be dole vaom Anil as we went iam.
00:36:06The only way I received his smartphones from Dubai.
00:36:07liyaan mujhe call ka lijyega. Bilkul milenghe. Yeh baat khتم ho
00:36:11gai. May bada haran ke kuyo milna chaathe hai. Lekin phir mujhe
00:36:15pata laga ke woh mushe milna. Kishi tisre admi nye mein naam nahi
00:36:20haa phe liena chaatha. Usne mujhe bataya ke wo I was very close to
00:36:26mufti mohammed saeed who was the home minister at that point. Vipi
00:36:30singh ke home minister te. To unhe kishe nye bataya hoega ke shahid is
00:36:33very close. Hum aksar sham ko saath bait te te. Bhoot. Mطلب
00:36:37personal family relation te. To woh unke paas pehunchan
00:36:41chaathe. Thru me. Lekin in the mean time Amar singh came to
00:36:46know ke yeh jana chaathe hai. Unho honne kisi ke through mulayam
00:36:51singh ke paas apna message bheja ke mai amitab bachchan ko
00:36:56aap ke paas lana chaata ho. Mulayam singh was for defense
00:36:58minister te. And and he told mulayam singh and mulayam singh
00:37:03was organizing his saifai you know which he used to do every
00:37:07year in December. So he wanted some big Bollywood stars. So
00:37:12Amar singh big thing was that he was able to his ear was on the
00:37:17grapevine so he was able to kisko kya chahi hai. He used to
00:37:20pass that on. So he wanted stars. Amitabh Bachchan wanted to
00:37:26reach out to VP singh and his government. So he told him that if
00:37:30I bring Amitabh Bachchan to saifai. He said yo kamala lehav.
00:37:35So that meeting was arranged between Amitabh Bachchan and
00:37:38and um and mulayam singh. And that's where mulayam singh
00:37:41realized that oh this man is very very important. He can bring
00:37:45Amitabh Bachchan to me. And Amitabh Bachchan was taken to saifai and
00:37:48the whole gang was taken to saifai which was something very
00:37:51very big for mulayam singh yadav. And then their problems
00:37:55Amitabh problem was also Amitabh became very very you know obliged
00:38:01to Amar singh. Mulayam singh became obliged to Amar singh because
00:38:04he had brought Amitabh Bachchan. And then in the meantime he was
00:38:07able to somehow reach out to I don't know that story. I don't
00:38:11know how he became close to Anilambani. And then what I learned very
00:38:15soon was that he was vacationing on a yacht with Anilambani
00:38:21and Amitabh Bachchan. And a three A the Ambani Amar singh and
00:38:28Amitabh. Three A's of Indian media power power games. Bollywood
00:38:35industrialist and politician. Later on another A came in that is
00:38:39Amitabh Bachchan. We'll talk about Amitabh Bachchan.
00:38:42So that is how he was able to bring in all these people.
00:38:46The Sahara he used Sahara to Sahara's money to influence these
00:38:52politicians the politicians to so that networking was very good.
00:38:56Although he was nobody when he arrived he was nobody in Delhi.
00:39:00And the dichotomy. Siddiqui sahab. He died a lonely death.
00:39:04The problem is that it was all fake. The whole hollow was fake.
00:39:10He was not a real man. He was not real.
00:39:12There were no real friends. He was he was the way these days
00:39:16you have hair of influencers. He was influencer one of the very first
00:39:20influencer. But influencers only have this fake image with millions of following.
00:39:25But they collapse like this like a balloon which collapses.
00:39:29I'll go back to Rajiv Gandhi's death which you talk is one of the most emotional
00:39:35times of your life and being witness to a piece of history.
00:39:39You also spoke about it. You called it an international conspiracy.
00:39:43You've been very clear about that.
00:39:45But you also say that there were people within the Congress who were way too glad to not have him around.
00:39:51No. I you see I'll tell you what. Right. Rajiv Gandhi received information from Yasir Arafat.
00:40:02Who was the leader of Palestinian Liberation Organization PLO.
00:40:06His ambassador here was Khalid al-Sheikh. And I had also been close to Yasir Arafat.
00:40:12Because in 1980, 81, Mrs. Gandhi helped me in taking some help to Yasir Arafat.
00:40:19And I had flown there to help Yasir Arafat. So I was also involved.
00:40:23So I was close to them. He sent a message to Rajiv Gandhi that from our sources,
00:40:30we have learned that there is a plot to assassinate you. And RDX has been procured in Europe.
00:40:36Rajiv Gandhi told you that? Gandhi told me that. Khalid al-Sheikh told me that.
00:40:44And Khalid al-Sheikh went ahead and told me that. I said, how did you know that?
00:40:50He said, we are our sources in Musad. And from there. So immediately,
00:40:58Chandr Shekhar, who was the Prime Minister at that time, was informed.
00:41:00Hmm. Two days after that, after I learned from this Rajiv Gandhi, I went to see Prime Minister
00:41:08Chandr Shekhar. His Minister for Internal Security, Subot Khan Sahai was also there.
00:41:15Hmm. And I told them, what are you doing about it? This, because campaign, election campaign was
00:41:22already there. He was, Chandr Shekhar was now an interim Prime Minister. And he had designed
00:41:29and, uh, the elections were on. What are you doing about security? So, Subot Khan Sahai laughed and said,
00:41:36Aray, tum log aise londiyaar panthi kattu in, in his Bihar style. He said, londiyaar, there is childish
00:41:43talk about this. Nothing is happening. Kaisei kaon spresi stories le hati ho? Kaan,
00:41:47yaa, Thir Fahad ko kya pata lagega? Kind of thing. Hmm. And after that, he was assassinated.
00:41:54And then Jain Commission. I have quoted Jain Commission. I have quoted other books. Jain
00:42:00Commission went into this. And Chandr Swami was very close to, to Narsimarao. Hmm. Jain
00:42:08Commission has written a whole chapter on Chandr Swami. Chandr Swami was anti-Rajiv. And Rajiv was
00:42:13anti-Chandr Swami. This I know. Rajiv had told you many times that he is the biggest rogue. He was the
00:42:18person who had, who wanted to sell some guns for Khashoggi to India, which were not taken by Rajiv.
00:42:25And therefore, he created this whole story of Bofors. He gave the, the documents to, to Indian
00:42:31Express. And this is, Arun Shori has been written, has written about this in his book. And he told me
00:42:35as well, that most of the documents were brought by, but they were false documents. He went on telling
00:42:41that I am going to give you best documents. He took them, him to Sweden, but nothing was given.
00:42:45Arun Shori told me this. So, Chandr Swami was involved. He was working for Khashoggi.
00:42:50He was working for these international arms dealers because their gun was not bought. And another gun
00:42:55was taken. That was the Bofors gun. So, they went after Rajiv's death, Rajiv's life. And Rajiv knew
00:43:02that this was whole a conspiracy of Chandr Swami. And they knew that if he comes back to power,
00:43:06Chandr Swami will be the first man to be in prison. But Siddiqui Zab, it wasn't just Chandr Swami.
00:43:10Chandr Swami was technically the right hand man of Narsimha Rao. Yes, he was. So, you're saying
00:43:14Narsimha Rao was also culpable. Look, look, I'm not saying anything,
00:43:18but circumstantial evidence is that once he became the Prime Minister, Narsimha Rao became
00:43:24the Prime Minister, Chandr Swami used to have direct access to the Prime Minister. He used to walk in and
00:43:30walk out. He used to appoint chief secretaries. Most appointments, if you need a, you know,
00:43:39bureaucratic appointment, you have to go to Chandr Swami. Chandr Swami was very close to him. And then
00:43:44lot of evidence was, you know, not followed up. And that's what Jain Commission says, that international
00:43:52conspiracy has not been followed up. And it should be followed in the interest of the nation. Because
00:43:56Rajiv Gandhi was not an individual. He was the Prime Minister of this country. And the Prime Minister of this
00:44:00country has been assassinated by a conspiracy, international conspiracy, then it is our duty as
00:44:05an Indian. It's a duty of even Prime Minister Modi or any government for that matter. To investigate.
00:44:13But unfortunately, even when UPA came to power and Congress came to power in a coalition, nothing was
00:44:19done. Why? You'll ask me why? Because the same, same Congress had brought down IK Gujarat's government,
00:44:28because Jain Commission had mentioned the role of DMK. And they said, DMK should be thrown out.
00:44:34Otherwise, we'll withdraw our support to IK Gujarat. IK Gujarat refused to throw out DMK from his
00:44:41coalition. Coalition. And as a result, his government was came down. And the same DMK was now part of the
00:44:49UPA in 2004. So they didn't want to lose power. So they didn't want to go back to the Jain Commission.
00:44:54If they go back to the Jain Commission, if they go back to the report of Jain Commission, then a lot of
00:44:59things… You destabilize your government.
00:45:00Yes. And therefore, so unfortunate thing is that ultimately, not only in India, all over the world,
00:45:06ultimately power matters. And for the sake of power, one is ready to forget, forgive, or even look.
00:45:14But forgiveness, somewhere down the line, was it given? Because so much has been made about the fact
00:45:19on how disrespected was Mr. P. V. Narsimha Rao in death, where his body was not even been allowed to
00:45:26get into the Congress premises. You see… What was behind that? No… What was the reason?
00:45:34Of course, Sonia Gandhi… Let me tell you something, that Sonia Gandhi made the biggest mistake by agreeing to
00:45:45have Narsimha Rao as the Prime Minister. Because I knew it… Why do you say that?
00:45:48I knew it for a fact that Rajiv Gandhi hated Narsimha Rao. And Narsimha Rao was a very senior leader.
00:45:53Narsimha Rao was the… Why he hated him?
00:45:56Many reasons. One of the reasons was Chandraswami and his role. And he had introduced
00:46:03Chandraswami to Khashoggi. He was Foreign Minister of Mrs. Gandhi. And after Mrs. Gandhi lost power,
00:46:08he went around with Chandraswami, introducing him to a lot of very important people. He was working
00:46:13even as an interpreter for Chandraswami because he knew so many languages. But the point I'm making is that
00:46:20Narsimha Rao, I know for a fact, he was the chairman of the Manifesto Committee in 91 elections.
00:46:29Rajiv Gandhi… I made certain suggestions to Rajiv Gandhi to be included in the manifesto.
00:46:34Rajiv Gandhi said, you go and meet Chandraswami… Sorry, Narsimha Rao. I said,
00:46:40who am I to go and tell Narsimha Rao what to include? He said, okay, I'll call him. He called Narsimha Rao.
00:46:46He said, Shahir is coming. He will give you certain ideas. Do it. I gave those ideas to Narsimha Rao.
00:46:51Narsimha Rao said, hey, let go. He refused to listen to me. I came back and told Rajiv that, look,
00:46:58he is dismissive. Rajiv said, doesn't matter. As soon as the manifesto comes, I know he is not in
00:47:05agreement with many things I have and I am not in agreement with him. And Narsimha Rao himself,
00:47:09he refused to contest the election. He had sent his household things to Hyderabad because he said,
00:47:19I am retiring. I am not going to be in politics anymore. This is just before Rajiv Gandhi's
00:47:24assassination. And the night manifesto came to Rajiv Gandhi, Vincent George called me and he said,
00:47:31whatever changes you wanted to make, I made those changes. Especially, I wanted to have this idea of
00:47:36Minority Affairs Ministry was mine. And I wanted to include that. Then I wanted to have education,
00:47:44you know. Minority Affairs Ministry was yours as in? I mean, my idea was that we should have a
00:47:51Minority Affairs Ministry. Okay. Where, because Minority Affairs were divided into many ministries.
00:47:56Vaqh was in one ministry. The Hajj was in another ministry. And as a result, there was no
00:48:02bureaucracy to implement these things properly. And therefore, I thought there should be one ministry
00:48:08where it should come under one head. And that's the idea I had given to Rajiv Gandhi. And I have also
00:48:13given the idea of Rapid Action Police Force. I had written a note and given it to him because
00:48:18riots used to take place and police used to play a partisan role. So I said there should be a police force
00:48:23which should be above all partisan affairs and should be very secular, very modern, very,
00:48:28very well trained. And that is the idea of Rapid Action Police Force, which I gave to him. And then I
00:48:35wanted to have Maulana Azhar Education Foundation. These were the ideas which were included in the
00:48:39Manifesto of 91. And Rajiv Gandhi said, I don't care for him, let him go. That is how things happened.
00:48:48But Sonia Gandhi, I don't know why and how, agreed to have Narsimara as the Prime Minister. Once he was
00:48:54the Prime Minister, he said, I'm going to be, I'm virtually, I was retiring, I'm very sick, I'm not
00:49:00very well. So I'll be there only for a short time. After that, you can have someone else. And why they
00:49:08agreed was because Indian economy was in doldrums. You remember Tender Shekhar's time, our economy was in
00:49:15bad shape. We had a bargain with our gold reserves, things were very bad. So they wanted somebody senior who
00:49:23could take control of the situation. And Narsimara, once Narsimara became the Prime Minister,
00:49:30he started using again the Bofors card. And this I know for a fact. This is what Vincent George told
00:49:37me and others told me. Achar Bhardwaj told me. Achar Bhardwaj told me in lot of details about it. That he
00:49:44started pressurizing Sonia Gandhi that look, I have to open the Bofors thing because I have received new
00:49:51documents and new inquiry and new things. Nothing of that happened. Bhardwaj told me that every time
00:49:56I went to the Prime Minister, I said, what is new? Give me the documents. He was the law minister. So he
00:50:01never gave any documents. But he used to tell Sonia Gandhi in order to pressurize her, keep her quiet.
00:50:07And that's where Mrs. Sonia Gandhi went into her shell. He was afraid for the family. He was afraid for
00:50:12Rahul and others. She told you that? No, she didn't tell me. But I could see that he was not ready to speak
00:50:19out at all. In the first, if you see… That's the reason the acrimony in the death
00:50:23of KB Narasimha Rao. Yes. First three, four years, till he was removed and KSRI took over.
00:50:29Mrs. Gandhi was not ready to come into politics to take any active role, play any active role. Only
00:50:35in 96 election, when Narasimha Rao was removed and KSRI took over, that Sonia Gandhi for the first time
00:50:42went out to campaign for Congress Party. Before that, she was afraid to be part of politics
00:50:48because Narasimha Rao was using this Bofo's card to remain in power and keep her, you know, in a corner.
00:50:59Yeah. Last few questions. We've talked about… You know, I wish we had more time. We don't. But I will
00:51:04go back to one A that you speak of, which is Ahmed Patel. And that one A is connected to that one
00:51:11interview, which is in detail that you have given, that you were given by the then Gujarat Chief Minister,
00:51:18now our Prime Minister, Mr. Narendra Modi. First, I will ask you, were you actually threatened to pull
00:51:26the interview down? No. It was… Ahmed Bhai… Ahmed Bhai… Ahmed Bhai was very soft-spoken. He never
00:51:33threatened anybody. But it was in a… you know, kid's glove that he used to send his…
00:51:41Being threatened in a velvet… by a velvet glove. But you were threatened.
00:51:44Yes. He… he said… he… he said, look, you should not print this interview.
00:51:49Okay. Kill it. I said, why should I kill it? It's a scoop. It's a wonderful interview. And for the first
00:51:55time, Narsim Modi, Prime Minister, he was… Chief Minister, that Modi had agreed to talk about the
00:52:03riot. And I have only and only questioned him about 2002 riots. And therefore, it's a very,
00:52:10very important interview. He said, no, no, no. It… it won't be good for you. Because
00:52:16Samajwadi party had just come back to power with Akhleesha. And you were with the party.
00:52:20Yes. I was with the party. Right. And they are going to have six, seven
00:52:24Rajya Sabha members. And your name may be there. You can be there.
00:52:31So, along with threatening you, he offered you a bribe. Yes. He… he… he… he didn't
00:52:35threaten me. He… he offered me this bribe that either this or you'll be out. And the moment
00:52:42interview was published… You were out of… I was out. And then later on, I learned that he called
00:52:47the Samajwadi party leaders that, look, your party man has done this. And this is not in the
00:52:52interest. And Gujarat is… is going to damage us. And therefore, you should… because they were in
00:52:57alliance at that point of time, Congress and Samajwadi were in alliance. Right. And therefore,
00:53:01you should take action against him. And you were dropped off… I was thrown out of the party. Yes.
00:53:05So, you hold… I… I… I suffered many times because of my belief in my journalism and my…
00:53:12Because you were both an insider and an outsider at the same time. Yes. Which you speak of.
00:53:16Unfortunately, I believed… the reason people ask me one question, why did you get involved in
00:53:21politics? One reason was… if Rajiv Gandhi had not been assassinated, I have not… I joined Congress
00:53:26Party only after Rajiv Gandhi's assassination. And Madhav Raus India and Jatnir Prasad, they came to me
00:53:35and they said, Tumhara dost chala gaya, uske sapne poore ni karoge. Because I had been part of forming
00:53:40the manifesto, I thought it's my duty to implement the dreams I had seen with Rajiv Gandhi. And therefore,
00:53:45I joined the Congress Party for the first time. That was one reason. The other reason was that
00:53:50if Arun Nehru had not thrown me into the jail, I would not have become very active politically,
00:53:57because I realized that if you really want to fight these politicians, then you have to be
00:54:02active in politics. Then there was a Samajwadi Party, you helped form the Jatta Party.
00:54:06Then third reason was that among the Muslims, the problem is that educated don't come to politics.
00:54:13It's… it's mainly people who are regarded as rogues, gundas, this, that. And these politicians,
00:54:20whenever we questioned them, they said, you people don't take interest. You educated Muslims,
00:54:25remain away from politics. You are afraid to be part of the
00:54:29dirt. And therefore, I thought it is my duty to do something for them.
00:54:33From Samajwadi Party, help form the Janta Party. Your last innings is RLD or is there more after this?
00:54:39RLD. Finished. No more politics. Absolutely. No more politics.
00:54:42Book is the full stop. Book is the full stop. I would not have published the book.
00:54:45Yes. I would not have published the book if I had not decided to remain away from party politics.
00:54:52I'll ask you two final questions, Siddiqui Saab, where you've touched on it in your book also.
00:54:59And there's a dichotomy to it as well, because you speak so vociferously, you know, on it as well,
00:55:05which is your dialogue with the RSS. Yes.
00:55:08And over time, it's not, which is new, it goes all the way back because you have been part of the committee,
00:55:14which was, you know, I think with Mohan Bhagwatji also consulted. But your interaction with the RSS goes back a few years.
00:55:23Priti, I have always believed that in this country, we have to build bridges.
00:55:31There are a lot of wounds because of the past history, because of the partition. And we can't go on,
00:55:39you know, we have to find solutions to these problems. And one of the ways is talking to people
00:55:50who really dislike you or who have many complaints against you. And because engagement is necessary.
00:55:58Even if you close the doors, keep the windows open. That's what I believe. And therefore,
00:56:02even in 80s, I was talking to Vishindu Parishat. I interviewed every Vishindu Parishat leader from
00:56:10Ashok Singhal, Daudyal Khanna, the… The hardliners.
00:56:15I mean, all hardliners. I always, and I also participated in, you know, many discussions,
00:56:22we have tried to find a solution to the Ajodhya conflict, a peaceful solution. I was part of many,
00:56:29many of them. I did not write about that because I always believe that we must find a solution.
00:56:33There's no point in confrontation. So, I have always believed that. And I also believe that
00:56:39we must also engage with RSS. RSS, I disagree with RSS. I have always opposed RSS. I have written
00:56:46about it from my childhood. I have opposed RSS. But at the same time, RSS is a very, very powerful
00:56:52organization. I don't believe RSS represents Hindus. RSS represents certain section of Hindus. RSS represents
00:57:01certain politics in the country. But it is one of the most powerful organizations. So,
00:57:07so you must engage with them and listen to them, what the grouses they have and tell them what you
00:57:13have in your mind. So, I honestly, I had the opportunity. I was a member of parliament at a
00:57:18time and I was invited with three, four MPs to meet Mohan Bhagwadji. He had not taken over as the
00:57:25Sarsan Chalak, but he was to, he was going to do it in a few weeks time. And there I had a long,
00:57:32you know, talk with him. And I told him that, look, you can't throw Muslims into the ocean.
00:57:37So, you have to learn to take Muslims as Indian equal citizens. And Muslims also have to understand
00:57:45that India is their country where they, they, they have to live here, die here,
00:57:51and they have to work for this nation, et cetera, et cetera. So, we had a long discussion.
00:57:55Then after Modi ji came to power and there were a lot of lynching and a lot of Muslims were facing
00:58:02attacks everywhere. I thought I must speak to Mohan Bhagwadji. So, I requested an appointment with him in 19,
00:58:09sorry, so 2016 or 17. And he gave me an appointment. I went to Nagpur and I had a one-to-one meeting with him.
00:58:17And again, I said, you have to do something about it because this, this is not the kind of
00:58:24Hinduism, which of, which I have believed in, which I have seen from my childhood. And this is not the way
00:58:33the country will move forward, et cetera. I mean, we had a long discussion. And after that, I think in 22,
00:58:41we, we were meeting for educational work. We are doing a lot of educational work in the community.
00:58:46That's why Mr. S.Y. Qureshi, Mr. Najeeb Jung, myself, General Zamiruddin Shah, five people found,
00:58:52formed a group to work for educational, you know, empowerment of the community and bringing modern
00:58:59education and bringing them into the mainstream, country's mainstream. And there we said that we must
00:59:05talk to these people. We must talk to Sarsan Chalak. He said, why would he talk to us? I said,
00:59:11let's write to him. We wrote a letter to him that we want to meet you. And he gave an appointment and
00:59:16we met him. And he's, he said that, look, there are certain things which we don't like. You, people talk of
00:59:22jihad, you call Hindus a kafir. You, so this should, and, and the, a cow slaughter should stop. I said,
00:59:28absolutely. We are all for stopping the cow slaughter. Pass a law. We, Muslims will support.
00:59:35Jihad is absolutely not what is propagated. Indian Hindus are not kafirs. This is a wrong understanding
00:59:42anyway. So we also had our grouses. We said, we are called jihadis. We are called Pakistanis.
00:59:47We are attacked everywhere in the name of cow jihadis. They attack Muslims. So you should do
00:59:54something about it. So we agreed that these problems cannot be solved in a day. So we must form a group.
01:00:00So a group of four leaders from RSS was nominated by Mohan Bhagwadji and five of us. So we met a couple
01:00:10of times. Then this group again met Bhagwadji. But I, I would do myself from the group after few
01:00:18meetings because I thought we are not going anywhere. So you don't think anything constructive
01:00:22came out? No, I feel it's, it's not easy when you have this kind of suspicions and this kind of doubts
01:00:29for hundreds of years, it will take time. But I wanted to focus more on educational work
01:00:36in the community. So you would do yourself from that. Yeah. And no, I'm, I'm not against it. I'm
01:00:41fully with the group. I think engagement should take place, not when only with RSS, with everybody.
01:00:47We must, there should be engagement between Hindu groups and Muslims group, the various organizations
01:00:52of Hindus, of Sikhs, of Christians. You see, politicians can't solve everything. So it is,
01:00:59engagement has to be on a non-political level. Political level, there will be all be differences
01:01:03because they will go by the political interest, their own political interest. And they will create
01:01:08this fear among the Hindus, among the Muslims, and among the Sikhs, among the Yadavs, among the,
01:01:13so this is the kind of politics we are playing in this country, politics of fear. Right. And this
01:01:17fear psychosis won't take us anywhere. Therefore, we have to find ways to come together. And, and,
01:01:24and despite everything, we are living in one country, one nation. And therefore, we must work together,
01:01:31even if we don't agree with each other. My final question, Siddhii Saab, there are so many
01:01:34questions to ask you. This will take another conversation and hopefully I'll invite you
01:01:37for my podcast to that. But I'll ask you one final question. Of everyone that you've interviewed
01:01:44with all the prime ministers, if I can ask you, there was someone that you admired and you came
01:01:48out of that interview and you changed your point of view.
01:01:51My interview, my interview with Mr. Narendra Bodhi, I had tremendous dislike for him. I was very
01:02:02critical of him in my paper on lot of, I used to appear in lot of channels, I used to attack him.
01:02:07But after interviewing him, many of his answers were a bit convincing. And because I said,
01:02:14why did you bring the bodies to Ahmedabad? Why they were taken around? He said, look, the train was
01:02:22coming to Ahmedabad. That means people were coming to Ahmedabad. So where would I have taken them?
01:02:29That is the reason. He gave an answer. Then I said, why the army was not brought immediately? He said,
01:02:36what was the month? Month of February. The riot took place on 27th, February 28th. First, the army came.
01:02:45There was only one day's gap. And one point he made, which was very important. That, look, this was the
01:02:52first riot, which was played live on TV channels. This was the first live communal riot in the country.
01:03:01And I have visited a lot of riot areas, Bhaagalpur, Ajimpura, Maliana, Mehrat, Muradabad, everywhere.
01:03:08And I have seen once the riot takes place, the news percolates down to the people after four, five days.
01:03:16In the meantime, administration is able to be ready to take control. In this case, as soon as Godra
01:03:23happened and people were burned, live channels were showing the burned bodies and riots took place
01:03:30all over Gujarat. The administration was not ready. The police was not ready. So, this was the first
01:03:36riot where administration was taken totally unprepared because there was no chance of… and there was no
01:03:44earlier rumors. There was no tensions. Most of the riots, tensions start building weeks together
01:03:49and the administration knows that a riot may take place. Here, there was no tension of any kind.
01:03:54Right. It was an accident, incident which happened. So, that was it.
01:03:58So, these issues you agreed with him? Huh? So, you agreed with…
01:04:01I… not agreed. I understood his dilemma. Okay. I understood his dilemma. So, this is…
01:04:07But at the same time, I believe that he should have apologized as… he should have taken the
01:04:13responsibility, the moral responsibility and especially riots may… he may not have been responsible for the
01:04:19riot to take place. But after the riots, the control which should have been there. And that's what
01:04:24General Zameeruddin Shah wrote in his book and he told us that the army was not given the
01:04:28facilities. The army arrived the very night. Right.
01:04:32And he… they were not given the vehicles. They were not given the facilities to move around. And they
01:04:37were not able to take control. Right. So, the point is that he… he should have apologized for it.
01:04:44I am not saying he was responsible. Like Rajiv Gandhi took the moral responsibility. Right.
01:04:50Manmohan Singh went to Har Mandar Sahib and took the responsibility and apologized for the 84
01:04:56riots. Sunya Gandhi apologized for the 84 riots. They were not responsible directly. So,
01:05:01sometimes it's the responsibility of the highest authority to take the moral responsibility.
01:05:08So, but you still haven't answered my question. Who was that one Prime Minister that you interviewed,
01:05:13you thought you really, you know, were in awe of him, but came out not feeling as…
01:05:19That was Mrs. Gandhi. That was Mrs. Gandhi. That was Mrs. Gandhi.
01:05:22That was Mrs. Gandhi. Because Mrs. Gandhi, when I went to interview her, she was a…
01:05:27So, you went in… She was emergency. She was the dictator. Everybody…
01:05:32So, when you came out, you said she's not that strong. She was like a huge, big, powerful woman.
01:05:39When I went to meet her, she came into the room and she was a diminutive, very fragile,
01:05:47soft-spoken woman. So, you were not that impressed.
01:05:51I was not impressed. I was not impressed. But, and she was very evasive in her replies.
01:05:57In her answers too. So, I was not very impressed. She was not honest. Yes, I was not very impressed.
01:06:01Alright. So, Siddiqi Saab, that's all the time that we have for now. Thank you so much for joining us.
01:06:06Thank you. Thank you very much.
01:06:06I hope your book is a tremendous success. I witness. Once again, we'll just show it to our viewers.
01:06:12That's his book. These are just some stories, some anecdotes that he told us. There's so much more
01:06:17in this. If you really want a slice of political history in the decades that have gone by,
01:06:22Shahid Siddiqi has been that, not just the fly on the wall, but been witness to it, both as an insider
01:06:28and as an outsider, as a journalist. He's documented it right here. Thank you, Siddiqi Saab for joining me
01:06:33and you'll soon get an invite for my podcast and he must have you. Thank you.
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