00:00Stop playing Russian roulette with children's mental health on social media.
00:04That's the message from French lawmakers tasked with investigating the psychological effects TikTok has on minors.
00:11The Commission of Inquiry was created earlier this year amid growing concerns
00:14that the video platform was exposing teenagers to content about suicide, self-harm and other mental health problems.
00:21Well, after months of investigation, the Commission is recommending banning kids under 15 from social media
00:27accept messaging platforms and enforcing a digital curfew for teens aged 15 to 18.
00:34Solange Mujain has this report.
00:37The psychological effects are devastating.
00:40That is the conclusion of a French parliamentary report on what TikTok does to minors.
00:45MPs on the Commission say it is so harmful they want to ban it for those under 15.
00:50There's not only its addictive algorithm and its effects on self-esteem and sleep,
00:54but the Commission also heard from teens who say it encouraged suicide.
01:00From one post to another, it gave self-harm techniques and ways to actually do it.
01:07After six months of hearings, speaking to 178 experts and witnesses,
01:12and receiving 30,000 responses from citizens, the Commission gave a scathing review of TikTok.
01:17We need to take back control over the lives of our young people and over our lives in general in France.
01:26And here it seems to me that there are a number of recommendations I'm making that can be implemented very quickly.
01:32Among the 43 recommendations in the report, there is the ban for those under 15,
01:36the need for an awareness campaign, as well as the possibility of a digital curfew
01:41for 15 to 18-year-olds, where social media becomes inaccessible from 10 p.m. to 8 in the morning.
01:48The president of the Commission said there should be financial repercussions as well.
01:52I think what matters to this Commission is to hold the platforms economically and financially accountable.
01:59If the platforms continue to endanger young people and not properly regulate themselves,
02:03then we need a tax system.
02:05The most dangerous will be taxed the most, and that will finance public spending,
02:09since ultimately it's spending on psychologists, on mental health,
02:13and more broadly, it's lives that are being destroyed.
02:17TikTok, which is owned by the Chinese group ByteDance,
02:19says they're using AI to moderate and remove harmful content.
02:23They claim 95% has taken off within 24 hours.
02:27But French lawmakers say they found racist, sexist, anti-Semitic,
02:31and misogynist posts being pushed on young viewers who get hooked on the app.
02:36Well, let's speak more on this with Hayley Hinkle,
02:40who is a policy counsel at Fairplay Childhood Beyond Brands.
02:44Hayley, thank you so much for joining us on the program.
02:46Really great to have you.
02:47I wanted to first of all get your reaction to the Commission's recommendations,
02:51banning under-15s and also putting in place a digital curfew.
02:55Will policies like that make any sort of difference, do you think?
02:58I think yes and no.
03:02I think that there are a couple of things we've come to understand at Fairplay about all of these tech companies,
03:09particularly social media platforms and their interest in children.
03:13And the fact is that their business model really drives them to choose engagement above all else.
03:19And that's why you see the use of design features that extend use and keep children up all hours of the night
03:27and push the most horrific types of content like pro-suicide content.
03:32And so it's not surprising to me that the result here is a recommendation around a ban for certain ages
03:38and thinking about a curfew overnight.
03:39But I think ultimately, you know, all countries need to come together and put into place rules and regulations
03:48that prevent these activities across the board and not just on a company-by-company basis.
03:54Well, Hayley, from what you're saying there, do you believe that there's a willful ignorance
03:59when it comes to the harmful impact that apps like TikTok can have?
04:04The report published by French lawmakers today speaks about that.
04:08It says that TikTok executives have displayed a willful ignorance.
04:12Do you think that's the case?
04:14Yeah, I think that's absolutely the case.
04:16Very similarly in the United States, dozens of attorneys general from across the states
04:22have investigated and brought lawsuits against TikTok as to their conduct with respect to teenagers
04:29and kids under 13 in the U.S.
04:32And absolutely what they found in their investigations is that the company has internal awareness of
04:41the ways in which they are taking away kids' sleep and mental and physical health, but that
04:48the thing that wins the day every time is the decision that's going to make them the most money.
04:52So it absolutely makes sense to me that investigators have concluded that these executives are purposely
04:57turning a blind eye to what's happening.
04:59Well, Hayley, I do want to turn to Australia for a little bit because they are also going
05:03to be implementing or they want to implement this social media ban.
05:07It's set to take effect in the next few months.
05:10It's going to ban 16-year-olds from using social media.
05:13Experts are raising concerns about data privacy and the accuracy of age verification technology.
05:20Implementing these bans won't be as easy as some might think, will they?
05:24Yeah, I think there's definitely a lot of questions about the technological capabilities
05:31that we have available to keep kids off of platforms.
05:37Kids are very tech savvy.
05:39And that's part of why, again, I think regulations that really address the company practices across
05:46the board are also important.
05:48And absolutely, we need to make sure that any age assurance or age verification is happening
05:53in a privacy-protective way.
05:56At the same time, we also know the companies have a lot of data and make a lot of inferences
06:01about the age of each user.
06:02And I think that we're seeing lawmakers and regulators and enforcers in a lot of countries
06:09start to say, hey, we're going to hold you responsible for what you know.
06:13Hayley, tell us about some of the things that you've been seeing.
06:16I mean, we talked about the impact it has on children in terms of sleep, harmful content.
06:21What have you been seeing?
06:24Yeah, absolutely.
06:25Displacing sleep, which comes with a whole host of other physical and mental health effects.
06:31Kids are really easily funneled down rabbit holes of increasingly extreme content on a topic,
06:39whether that's about self-harm and suicide or eating disorders and body image.
06:43Other features can also really affect body image for young boys and young girls.
06:48Filters and likes and follower counts, you know, these things that really show to kids
06:55that if you look a certain way, you'll be more popular and get more engagement on TikTok.
07:00Those have a real negative impact on young people at a very vulnerable time when they're
07:06really looking for social acceptance.
07:08And that's something that TikTok knows, too.
07:12I'm sure plenty of kids that are going to be hearing us talking about this will be,
07:16you know, saying, no, we don't want this kind of ban put in place because it allows them
07:19to keep in touch with their friends when they're not at school.
07:23Are there any good reasons for allowing children to stay on TikTok?
07:26I just want to be devil's advocate here a little bit.
07:29Do any reasons make up for the harm that the apps cause?
07:34I think as it stands now, the tradeoffs are very substantial.
07:40You know, at the same time, at Fairplay, we have not called for all out bans because we
07:46understand that a lot of technology has become a part of kids' everyday life.
07:51But that said, you know, for me personally, in order for it to be something to recommend
07:55for, you know, a child I know in my life, you know, we're not there at all.
08:00And so I think we really need to see practices change either from because of fear of what
08:07lawmakers will do or fear of bans.
08:09But TikTok's got to do something and start really altering how it treats kids before it's
08:14really safe.
08:16Well, Heidi, what would you recommend to parents that might be watching, thinking what they
08:19can do to protect their children?
08:24Yeah, I mean, I think a few things.
08:25I think having open conversations with your kids and really creating an environment where
08:31they're comfortable sharing with you when they see something that upsets them, you know,
08:36having some understanding that some of this content can get increasingly extreme and also
08:43understanding the limits of the tools as they stand now.
08:46TikTok has purposefully made them pretty difficult to use, the safety and parental tools, things
08:52like, you know, the option to, quote unquote, reset your feed only work for so long.
08:57And so, you know, it's very easy for your child to be, you know, experiencing things that you're
09:03not even aware of because of this little device in their pocket.
09:06I think working with other families to agree on things together in your neighborhoods and
09:12communities about when you're going to give your kids phones and social media can really
09:16help because there's strength in numbers.
09:18And I think telling your elected officials, you know, submitting comments and processes
09:23just like this one to share about your family's experience and demand something better is so
09:28essential because all families are experiencing this right now.
09:33Hey, thank you so much for joining us on the program.
09:35Really great to get your insights on this topic.
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