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MusicTranscript
00:00Hey guys, welcome back to Middle Ground.
00:01Before we jump in, we've got a huge announcement.
00:04A lot of folks have been asking for this for years.
00:07We're finally giving you the first ever Jubilee podcast called Radical Empathy.
00:11That's right. We are really proud and excited to share it with you guys.
00:14It actually features an interview with somebody in this episode.
00:18So stick around until the end and we'll tell you more about it.
00:20For now, enjoy the episode.
00:22The one on my right, sphere.
00:25If you think that is the shape of the earth, point to it now.
00:30If you think the other model is the shape of the earth, point to it now.
00:34Three, two, one, zero.
00:37All engines running.
00:39Liftoff. We have a liftoff.
00:4132 minutes past the hour.
00:43Liftoff on Apollo 11.
00:45One small step for man, one giant leap for mankind.
00:51What do you think the shape of the earth is?
00:55I don't think. I know for a fact it's a globe.
00:58The earth is flat.
01:00It's like we have this picture of reality that's a big puzzle piece.
01:04And then one of those pieces just wasn't fitting.
01:07I'm always open to having a discussion with someone who is holding a wrong belief like this.
01:14Are you willing to change your mind?
01:16I'm not.
01:17The evidence is so much.
01:19Nobody wants to be a flat earther, but if you showed me incontrovertible evidence, I would definitely go back.
01:26Who wants to ridicule?
01:27Where are you going to be getting the discussion with the other side?
01:31I'd like to tear them to pieces.
01:33I'm Jim Underdown, executive director of the Center for Inquiry West in Los Angeles and the chair of the CFI Investigations Group.
01:55I'm Spencer Marks, one of the senior members of the CFI Investigations Group, science advocate.
02:01I'm Marina Yeri.
02:03I'm a theoretical physicist and I'm with the University of Irvine.
02:08I'm Wendell Walton.
02:09I'm a chief learning officer for Young Startup.
02:12I'm Shelley Lewis.
02:13I'm a graduate of West Point, critical thinker, and jumped out of airplanes.
02:18My name is Dan Glattman.
02:20I work as Dan the Waterman in the drinking water filtration industry and I'm a truth seeker.
02:25I get my flat earthers on the left and my low earthers on the right.
02:35Only step forward if this is true for you.
02:38I believe the earth was created by a higher power.
02:43Well, I've been a Christian for 30 years, so the Bible is a flat earth book.
02:54You have to take it literally.
02:56Like, for example, in Isaiah, when it talks about how the earth is like a clay wax seal that's stamped with upturned edges,
03:04that's just not some fancy story.
03:06That's a simile.
03:08It is like.
03:09Right.
03:09Absolutely.
03:10And then Isaiah talks about, too, and I'm a Christian, he who sits upon the circle of the earth.
03:16There's a difference between a circle and a ball.
03:18Well, exactly.
03:19If you look at the original Hebrew, it means disc.
03:23There's over 200 scriptures in the Bible that point to a flat earth.
03:26So this notion that you need God or some higher power to create the earth or the universe is very old
03:41and was initially posited by people of a pre-scientific age.
03:48Since then, we have learned quite a bit about the universe coming into existence, when that happened.
03:56Modern humans don't get their cosmology.
03:59They don't get their physics.
04:00They don't get their knowledge of the universe from the Bible or any ancient text.
04:05It's sort of like the God of the gaps.
04:07Once, you know, people used to believe that lightning was God's wrath and throwing these lightning bolts.
04:12But once we understood it was a natural process, God shrank a little bit more
04:16because now we couldn't attribute those lightning bolts to God.
04:19We had to attribute that to the real science.
04:22The other thing, the point about the Bible specifically for me,
04:25is why is that one particular text the correct one?
04:28You choose to believe that, and that's fine.
04:31But there's so many other writings and so many other books, so why weren't they correct?
04:35Why is just the Bible correct?
04:37Well, what you'll find in a lot of these ancient religions is they're all flat earth religions.
04:43All their cosmology goes back to being a flat earth with an enclosed system.
04:48So it's not just the Bible that teaches this.
04:51It's many different religious books.
04:54So one problem I have is to trying to explain phenomena happen in nature by holy books.
05:04Those are religious books.
05:06Those are not books of science.
05:09And it is wrong to infer or deduct scientific readings out of those books.
05:19My name is Wendell.
05:20I am a logical, biblically-based, and scientific flat earther.
05:27I didn't start out, and no one starts out as a flat earther, but I had a lot of questions.
05:32So I actually got to the point where I had to go out and put my own eyeballs on it.
05:37So we went out to an observation at Salton Sea, and things just didn't add up down there.
05:43So we've gone back probably a dozen times,
05:46and I can guarantee you that there is no curvature over distance.
05:49The Internet has played an important role in confirming my view of this topic.
06:00That's the problem.
06:03We have the advantage of information today that's outside of channels 2, 4, and 7,
06:08and the few networks that are corporately owned.
06:10It's pretty easy to say YouTube isn't research, but when you spend enough time, you're picking up quite a bit.
06:18And with the discussion groups, panels, we've gone against opposition.
06:23We've opposed ourselves.
06:25Surprisingly enough, Flat Earth is its own worst enemy.
06:28So it's not that easy for us to come to consensus, and we find that consensus is orchestrated and not actually scientific in any way.
06:37You know, my grandfather used to tell me growing up, never believe anything you read in the newspaper, right?
06:42He told that to me.
06:43Now, with the age of the Internet, it's like, you know, how much of this misinformation are you getting there?
06:48And when you have, like, eyewitnesses taking video of something, you do have to take everything with a grain of salt.
06:56That's why, because of my multimedia background, I knew that all that stuff could be faked.
07:01You know, take it into Photoshop, take it into After Effects.
07:03Okay, this is at the core of the issue of why there are so many Flat Earth believers out there right now.
07:15The problem is, the information from someone who decides to start a website or produce a YouTube video is not reliable.
07:25When I have a toothache, I go to a dentist.
07:28When my car breaks down, I go to a mechanic.
07:30When you have questions about cosmology, you should go to an astrophysicist, you should go to a physicist,
07:37you should go to people who have spent years and years studying these ideas, not some six-minute YouTube video.
07:44There is a percentage of people that if they saw a YouTube video that was not within their scientific chops to refute on the face of it,
07:55would believe anything out there.
07:57One of the things I will say is NASA.gov has their own documents out there that we get to vet,
08:03which is through the Freedom of Information Act.
08:05And would you agree that NASA documents, if they're on display, that we should be able to go and research inside there?
08:12NASA is not proving that the Earth is flat.
08:15Well, they say it in 14 other documents.
08:16You should read what NASA says, and you should listen to what NASA says.
08:20I would love to see your NASA evidence that the Earth is flat.
08:23It's only their contradictory issues that bring us here.
08:27We're all familiar with the Earthrise photo, right?
08:30The Earth is rising over the moon.
08:31We're all familiar with it.
08:32As a NASA, you can go out to the NASA site, you can download the original, right?
08:35I already know what you're going to ask.
08:36So, you bring up the luminance on it, and you can see where it's cut out and pasted there.
08:41They're showing us doctored images that are clearly doctored.
08:45The blue marble is a very famous image from 1972.
08:49When you talk to the artist from NASA, his name is Robert Simmons,
08:53he talks about exactly how it was created from data, and it's not a photograph whatsoever.
08:58He added clouds.
09:00Let me explain.
09:00He added a highlight of the sun.
09:02If you take, you know, on your phone, most phones have that panoramic image.
09:06When you do that, you're taking a series of pictures, and the phone cleverly stitches that together.
09:11I'm just saying how it's presented.
09:12It's presented as a real photograph.
09:13So, when NASA takes real photos, and they either clean them up for color,
09:17or they stitch them together so it's one large image, it doesn't mean they're CGI.
09:22You're talking about composites.
09:26I'm what you call a globe denier.
09:28You could even get me into a virtual construct if I can't find the borders myself.
09:36What shape would you say you think you're in this?
09:39It appears to me to be a stationary plane, as opposed to the vastness of infinity of space.
09:45I would find it to be an ice plane where we have a localized sun, and our environment thrives there.
09:51You know, these particular people have misled us on television.
09:55This is a brilliant opportunity to speak.
09:58We've been suppressed, censored, by mainstream media.
10:01Alternative media is just a thing of beauty for me.
10:05I view the other side as uneducated.
10:09I'm running.
10:14I'm running for this.
10:16Well, they certainly think they're educated.
10:19And they're following quite a bit of the university system, what we call scientism.
10:25Right, scientism.
10:26Obviously, it's the belief in what's written, where we tend to be exploring in the field with physical properties, not theories of any kind.
10:39We're using actual measurements that are calculated not by our guidelines, but the guidelines of science as we know it.
10:46I can only hope they're uneducated, as opposed to disingenuous.
10:50Well, that's the other thing, too, because we know that, on a large scale, the government has been disingenuous, and they're pushing a narrative, right?
10:59So it's hard for us.
11:01I mean, I'm sure that you've met people, too.
11:02It's like, look, are you just, you haven't looked into it yet?
11:06Or are you a shill?
11:08Are you part of a disinformation campaign?
11:10I don't think you guys are uneducated.
11:15I think you're wrongly educated.
11:17I think the problem with what I've seen in the Flat Earth crowd is that it's not that they're undereducated, but they, instead of looking at evidence and letting the evidence guide to where the ultimate conclusion is, they start with a conclusion, and then they try to cherry-pick evidence to support their pre-drawn conclusion.
11:36They cast away all the bits of evidence that actually is contrary to their beliefs.
11:40I think that you're very well-educated, as well as you are, Jim.
11:44Certainly Ali is.
11:45He's probably going to get the best education of all of us.
11:47Exactly, and he paid for it, too.
11:50But more and more professionals are coming on board.
11:53They're starting to question their reality.
11:55So the thing of it is, is once you start to really look, take a hard look at the evidence, and you are unafraid of just standing for the truth, wherever that may lead you, then people end up becoming flat-earthers.
12:10I'm hoping to be able to tell our side of the story from the inside out.
12:18So many times, flat-earthers are depicted from the outside in, and I want to be able to share with others empirical data that proves the earth is not what we've been told.
12:30I have changed my mind at some point about this topic.
12:36So when I was 12 years old, I went to space camp, and I met Alan B. Shepard.
12:46Oh, nice.
12:47Yep, yep, and I wanted to be an astronaut, and I wanted to be the first woman to walk the moon.
12:51Oh.
12:51So for me, I'm a glober.
12:53I went into this completely wanting it to be true, and my husband told me he saw this thing about the fake moon landing, and I was like, you're absolutely crazy.
13:06There's no way that the moon landings are fake.
13:09And then in 2010, my husband was killed, and so I never really developed that until around 2014 when flat-earth kind of came back up.
13:19And that little voice inside my head said, remember the fake moon landings?
13:25Remember when that was brought to my attention?
13:28And then I started really critically analyzing that, and I would say, you know, just looking at that evidence, if they can lie about the moon landings, they can certainly lie about pictures and satellites and other things.
13:40And so I started going down that rabbit hole of studying, so that was my influence from my husband.
13:46How many lies does it take to make a liar, right?
13:49And being ridiculed for being inquisitive is pretty tough on us.
13:53I wouldn't say that I've changed my mind because my mind isn't set.
13:56NASA is solely designed to change my mind.
14:01It is, from its inception, from its discovery, has been a television program.
14:06It's been a space program to sell us on something that they've yet to actually show us.
14:12Show me a globe spinning with clouds and a moon.
14:18Show me home.
14:20And I think I could shut up quite easily.
14:23I think I could shut up.
14:26The timing of your conversions is interesting to me.
14:30Twenty years ago, the flat earth world was tiny and insignificant.
14:39Enter the advent of the internet, YouTube, online discussion groups, all these new available places where you could find information about everything.
14:50This is true that the evidence as you looked were not robust evidence.
14:57And the sources you used, they were not reliable sources again.
15:01But my problem is that, and I like you guys that you are very skeptical, but at the same time, you are not skeptical about your belief system.
15:10You keep going back, you think that that's my foundation for why I believe the earth is flat.
15:15And I'm telling you, you're wrong.
15:17I have evidence that proves it's flat.
15:19What type of evidence?
15:20It proves it's not a ball.
15:21What type of evidence?
15:22We're being misled.
15:23We're being deliberately misled by mainstream media.
15:26It's your evidence.
15:28We see too far.
15:29We see too far.
15:30We should not be able to see.
15:32I live in Dana Point.
15:33Okay.
15:34I can see San Clemente Island, which is 60 miles away.
15:37So what?
15:37That's very high.
15:38What do you mean, so what?
15:39Oh, I'm on the beach.
15:39It's 11,100 feet tall.
15:41I'm on the beach.
15:41It is tall.
15:42I'm on the beach.
15:43Yeah, yeah.
15:44Can you see a ship which is going?
15:46Oh, yeah.
15:46Let's talk about the ship that goes over the curvature of the earth.
15:49I love that.
15:50So science has said that when I see a ship go out of my field of view, it's going over
15:55the curvature of the earth, correct?
15:57Yes.
15:57But then I bring my P900 up, and guess what?
16:00I can zoom it back in.
16:02So is it going over the curvature of the earth or not?
16:05Absolutely.
16:05Oh, not all the time?
16:06Not all the time?
16:07No, you don't see all the ship.
16:08The bottom part of the ship is hidden by the curvature.
16:11At that distance, you shouldn't see the top of it either.
16:13If the earth were truly flat, there would be really hardly any limit.
16:17You'd be able to stand at the top of the Empire State Building and look towards Chicago,
16:22a mere thousand miles away, and see the lights of Chicago at night.
16:25Why wouldn't you?
16:26No, because you have an atmospheric disturbance.
16:27Very thick.
16:29I've been into astronomy since I was 10.
16:31It's faulty logic.
16:32It's completely faulty logic.
16:34Let's reset, and then I have a morning.
16:36Okay.
16:37Okay.
16:40One of the big things I do is investigate extraordinary claims like flat-eartherism
16:47or ESP or all sorts of different things.
16:51The earth is undoubtedly a globe and not flat.
16:55This is well supported by gobs of science.
17:00Scientific consensus is possible.
17:05Scientific consensus is possible.
17:06What is the question?
17:08I don't understand the question.
17:09Scientific consensus is possible.
17:12Possible.
17:12Anything is possible.
17:14I mean, anything is possible.
17:16I've got a tremendous issue with consensus and peer review.
17:20I've been spending a lot of time arguing with people that argue the other side,
17:24and I found that, surprisingly, consensus always wins.
17:27It was shocking to me that the group with the majority has an incredible advantage.
17:34As scientists, flat-earthers, truthers, punks, we're at an incredible disadvantage.
17:44Let's talk about scientific consensus for a second.
17:47You're never going to get 100% of anyone.
17:49There is scientific consensus on a global earth.
17:53There's scientific consensus on evolution.
17:56A lot of big issues.
17:57Use the word theory.
17:58Do you know what a theory in science is an extremely...
18:02And a fact is a fact.
18:04Don't mistake this word theory.
18:06You are not me.
18:06In science, it's not conjecture.
18:08It's an explanation.
18:10By definition, it's an explanation.
18:12It's a deep...
18:13Well, let's talk about a fact.
18:15Show me a fact, then.
18:16Why are all facts theories?
18:17In science, the word theory is the highest level that you can give something because it's so well-supported.
18:24What about a fact?
18:25That is a fact.
18:26It's not a fact you would call it a fact.
18:29Do you know why?
18:29Do you know why?
18:30Because in science, there's always room for improvement.
18:33There's always room to tweak and find better information.
18:37So that is how science works.
18:39It gets better refined over time, as opposed to flatter theory, which never gets refined.
18:44It simply is what it is.
18:45New ideas have limited access to media and limited exposure.
18:50Until we're in university curriculums, we will continue to appear uneducated.
18:56Well, that's not true.
18:58In the history of science, we had many occasions that the idea was not welcomed by the society.
19:06Einstein was one of them.
19:08Galileo.
19:08Galileo was one of them.
19:10But if your theory is an authentic one, and it can go through this hardship of scientific method, eventually we'll win.
19:20I used to believe that science was after the truth, right?
19:27We all just want to know what the truth is.
19:29Science has been trying so hard to divorce itself from the idea of a creator when God's intent was to create science to lead you to him.
19:38You know, sometimes things seem supernatural that we are able to explain later through, you know, science.
19:44Okay, I understand.
19:45But there are other things as well that are supernatural, that go beyond the natural, that we can always explain through believing in a creator, right?
19:55This is my big issue with science, scientific approach and non-scientific approach.
20:00You are absolutely right.
20:02In science, we are after the truth.
20:04And we are hoping by each day we're getting closer and closer to the truth.
20:10We never get there.
20:11Never.
20:12Well, I know that's true for you.
20:14No, no, that's a science.
20:15That's you guys.
20:17You think you do have the truth.
20:19Now let's look at the evidences, as you were mentioning.
20:21You do have the conclusion, let's find the evidences.
20:25Science doesn't work that way.
20:26That's not true.
20:27Well, that's not what we are saying.
20:28Well, you are saying, you are referring to Jesus, who many billions of people do not believe, including myself.
20:35And many more billions do.
20:36So what?
20:37So who's right?
20:38Of course I can.
20:39When you say that we start with a conclusion and then try to match everything to make it work, like, that to me is complete dishonesty.
20:47That is not true at all.
20:49That is what you are doing right now.
20:50No, you're not.
20:50You're making that assumption.
20:51No, it's not my assumption.
20:52Which I think science does a lot of.
20:54So do you make assumptions or not?
20:55Does science make assumptions?
20:57Does science make assumptions?
20:57No, of course.
20:58Sure, we do make assumptions based on things that are well-supported and proven and reproven.
21:06We don't have to.
21:07Show me how you isolate gravity.
21:09If gravity is an assumption, show me the scientific method how you isolate gravity.
21:14We've done the action.
21:14That's the place to start.
21:15Let's cool off.
21:17Yeah, sure.
21:17And reset.
21:18I just want to check in.
21:31How are you guys feeling?
21:33How is this discussion going?
21:35I kind of feel like I want to develop some of this stuff a little bit more.
21:39It feels high level, but I feel like there's so much that I haven't really even touched base on.
21:44Well, I mean, I certainly didn't think that anybody on either side was going to flip.
21:49Well, there's still time.
21:50There is still time.
21:51I have hope for you, Wendell, and Shelley.
21:53I don't know about Dan.
21:54I have hope for you, too.
21:56But, you know, it's certainly, I'm glad it's a civil discussion, certainly.
22:01Oh, yeah.
22:01Put your waters to the side, and we'll just do another problem.
22:06Are you on the other side?
22:08Good.
22:08He flipped!
22:10Wendell, welcome aboard.
22:12Lock on.
22:13The greatest moment in television history right there.
22:16Good, Ed.
22:18All right.
22:20NASA is trustworthy.
22:21So, I mean, obviously any organization can be wrong with certain things,
22:32and they may have individuals that lie or deceive or something,
22:38but as a general organization, they're looking for the truth.
22:42Yeah, the idea that NASA and the government is lying to us about the shape of the Earth
22:50is the height of conspiracy theories.
22:54In order for this to be true, the literally hundreds of thousands of people
23:01who at some point over the last 50 or 60 years
23:06would have to be somewhat complicit in this,
23:11and nobody spills the beans at all,
23:15is on the face of it completely unbelievable.
23:20The private does not know what the general is doing.
23:24There's compartmentalization happening all the time.
23:27Of course.
23:27So, it wouldn't be that far-fetched.
23:29Has the government ever lied to us is really the question at stake.
23:33We all agree on that.
23:34Yeah.
23:34But now we have NASA.gov, right?
23:40And we, oh, absolutely they're not lying about anything.
23:43They're completely transparent.
23:44Everything is true.
23:45We'd be foolish to think that's true.
23:47No, no, no, there's a difference here.
23:48I'm sorry.
23:49This is a fallacy here.
23:50There is a difference.
23:51Not a fallacy.
23:52I'm sure it is.
23:53Go ahead.
23:53See, you were talking about a government.
23:56Now you're talking about an agency of the government.
23:59NASA.gov.
23:59But this agency is scrutinized by thousands and thousands of scientists around the globe.
24:08You are dealing with smart people, believe me.
24:11You are dealing with smart people.
24:12I don't deny that.
24:13So, it is very hard to do that.
24:15Once or twice, maybe.
24:17Not for the whole time.
24:18Raise your hand if you think we went to the moon.
24:21What is the proof?
24:23Hundreds and hundreds of pounds of moon, rocks, and dust.
24:26And we have distributed those freely to PhD scientists around the world.
24:32And not one of those geologists have said, what is this?
24:35They've proven to be fake.
24:36And collected on the ice in Antarctica and in the Arctic as well.
24:41Those are collected.
24:42You don't have to go to the moon to get moon rocks.
24:44As a matter of fact, all U.S. Air Force photography prior to 1958 shows a flat Earth.
24:51Only NASA shows a sphere.
24:53That's not true.
24:53That's absolutely not true, Jim.
24:55I wouldn't lie to you.
24:58NASA's lying to you, my friend.
24:59The other bit of proof is we have a laser retroreflector on the moon.
25:04That we're using now.
25:05We still use to this day.
25:07It's sitting there.
25:08You can find to the inch how far away the moon is.
25:11No pictures of home.
25:11That only is there.
25:13By the way, my question to you is, why?
25:16Why would all these honest, hardworking people perpetuate this massive fraud?
25:25Why would they do this?
25:27What's the benefit of doing that?
25:28Okay, the benefit of it.
25:29They make $52 million a day.
25:31Follow the money.
25:32No, the little guy.
25:33Follow the money.
25:33The little guy.
25:34That's what.
25:35Then when you say all, okay.
25:36It didn't start out that way.
25:37And NASA was not founded to prove the Earth was a globe.
25:40It had nothing to do with the way they were founded.
25:41Well, if you go and study the Earth.
25:42Are you sure?
25:43Yeah, positive.
25:44Really?
25:44Yes.
25:47Somebody has to be a voice for reason and somebody has to be a voice for truth.
25:51It would be a fantasy to believe that I would change anybody's mind from the other three.
25:56However, if there's somebody sitting on the fence and this is the first introduction to this debate,
26:01perhaps they'll hear the reasonable voice and say,
26:04that makes more sense than having this pizza-shaped Earth.
26:09I can put myself in the mindset of the other side.
26:15I used to be a ball-earther.
26:24Everything you say right now is completely what I used to agree to.
26:30So I completely understand where you're coming from.
26:33For me, I think the correct way to do any kind of investigation or to examine things
26:39is by literally putting yourself in that mindset of the other person.
26:42So I do do that.
26:44I disagree with your position, but I completely understand from your perspective what you're saying.
26:56The trouble I have understanding your perspective is, in the modern world,
27:03unless you live in a cave somewhere, you have to believe in science implicitly.
27:08I met a flat-earther, a young woman, who said,
27:10I don't trust anything that science does.
27:14And that's a problem because human beings can't replicate the whole body of science every single generation.
27:22At some point, you have to trust what's already been discovered and proven and move on to the next thing.
27:29Otherwise, we're not going to advance at all.
27:31I mean, when you turn that key ignition in your car, you expect the car to start out.
27:36And not blow up.
27:37And not blow up because science puts you in that position.
27:41So it's really hard to understand how people would know in their hearts that science achieves wonderful things
27:51and then just jumping ship when it comes to this other issue.
27:55We're not drawing conclusions.
27:56We understand the mechanisms that made that car work.
27:59There is no theories and no disputed conclusions involved there.
28:05It's not a good analogy.
28:06Can I admit a great compromise that we have to experience being against the grain people
28:11is we have to literally sit in a group and decide whether or not we can afford to have an opinion.
28:17And that's tough.
28:19I actually, I agree with you there because we're the same thing.
28:23I mean, I think skeptics go through this and atheists go through this.
28:28I don't believe in God.
28:29When I'm around religious people, I take a chance socially when I tell them I'm an atheist.
28:35So I know it takes some courage to follow your beliefs, and I appreciate that.
28:40But I think I've done a lot of research in that venue too.
28:45And it's not something I choose to believe in.
28:47It's something I have to believe in based on the evidence.
28:51See, what I get from you guys is that seeing is believing.
28:54So how come you believe in God or Jesus?
28:56You haven't seen neither of them, right?
28:59I've seen evidence, though.
29:00Well, exactly.
29:01So we are looking for evidence.
29:03There are many, many other evidences for Earth not being flat.
29:09My point is that these experiments clearly show that the Earth is globe.
29:15And you don't need to go outside the globe to see its globe.
29:18It's a conclusion.
29:18You told me you want the evidence.
29:20If you're saying that you look only to see something,
29:23then I dispute your belief system in God and Jesus or Yehovah or Buddha or Zoroastra or anyone.
29:31You keep going back to religion as they are conclusion.
29:33Because it's coming from there.
29:34You do have the truth.
29:36I have evidence.
29:37I have evidence.
29:38You pointed at the beginning of this.
29:39She pointed out physics.
29:40You quoted Bible.
29:42Of course I did.
29:42That's the reason.
29:43That is not the only reason I know what the shape of the Earth is.
29:47And you keep...
29:47That's fallacy.
29:49It's not fallacy.
29:50It is a fallacy.
29:50Actually, it is not fallacy.
29:51It is a fallacy.
29:52You just muted your pencil.
29:53Yeah, yeah, yeah.
29:56I'm a theoretical physicist.
29:59What I'm doing is the combination of string theory and cosmology.
30:03So we try to understand what happened during the Big Bang, after the Big Bang, or even before the Big Bang.
30:11What are you hoping to get from the discussion today?
30:14Well, I hope I would be able, particularly to the young generation,
30:18to convince them that first they should think critically.
30:21And don't leave anything.
30:22They shouldn't take anything for granted.
30:25Look at the evidences and examine those evidences.
30:29And throw away those claims that are not evidence-based.
30:39Science, not to put it down, but when you're talking about rocket science,
30:44this is very difficult for the majority of people to understand.
30:49And it's designed that way.
30:50And so, in a lot of ways, hiding behind rocket science is similar to religion.
30:57If you look at the Catholic Church back in the days, only we can interpret the Bible.
31:01You have to listen to what we say.
31:03So in a lot of ways, we're getting that same notion from science that says,
31:09only we can interpret what these numbers are.
31:11You just need to trust us.
31:12But then when we actually do go and test some of their equations and they don't work,
31:17does that beg the question for us to go and test it for ourselves?
31:21Absolutely.
31:22I would say, you know, one great thing about science is its predictability.
31:28Let's for some moment, for a short moment, assume that your model, this flat earth model, is correct.
31:33I don't know what does it buy for us.
31:35What does it predict for us?
31:38So my question for you guys would be, next time, bring me something from your theory, your model,
31:46that you can predict something which the globe earth model cannot predict.
31:52Then I would change my mind.
31:54I would just say that don't believe anything that I've said.
32:00You've got to do your own research.
32:01And I think what you'll find is that you'll see that a puzzle piece doesn't fit.
32:05And the only way you're going to do that is if you put your own eyeballs on it.
32:08I don't blame people for being skeptical.
32:10I'm skeptical about a lot of different things.
32:13I applaud that instinct in you.
32:15But you have to go beyond just not believing in something.
32:21Ask the hard questions.
32:23Ask what qualifies a YouTuber, a book author, anywhere else you're getting this information.
32:31What qualifies them to make wide-ranging comments about the shape of the earth?
32:39Look, anybody who can overturn Einstein or some major theory is going to be eventually
32:44written in the halls of science for the rest of their lives.
32:49But they have to come up with the goods.
32:50They have to show good science-based evidence that what they say is true.
32:57And they have to withstand the test of time and peer review and the rigors of the scientific method.
33:03All right. Thank you.
33:04Good to meet you.
33:05What a pleasure.
33:06Ollie, it was nice to meet you.
33:08I'll get a hug too.
33:09Nice to meet you.
33:10Very nice to meet you.
33:12Hey, I want to get you a copy of my novel.
33:14Oh, sure.
33:15Hey, good job.
33:16Thank you guys for watching this episode of Middle Ground.
33:19That's right.
33:20We know that one of the biggest requests we get is we just want longer episodes.
33:23We want to know more about these stories.
33:25We want to hear more about the Middle Ground.
33:27So we created a podcast called Radical Empathy where we can do just that.
33:32Shelly, from this episode, actually sat down with me and we had a conversation about her
33:36beliefs and how she came to be a flat earther.
33:38It's amazing.
33:39You have to listen to it, but don't just take our word for it.
33:41We're going to play you a little sample right now.
33:44All right.
33:44Should I take a listen?
33:45Let's do it.
33:46All right.
33:46This is John Regalado sitting with Shelly Lewis, and we are here to talk about beliefs.
33:53Okay.
33:53I have studied that the earth is flat and have come to the conclusion that I agree with
33:59that.
34:00This episode is amazing.
34:02This is our first one ever, and you can find it anywhere.
34:04You can find it on Spotify, Apple, Stitcher, wherever you listen to podcasts.
34:07But if you love it, please let us know in the comments there and also give it five stars
34:12because if you guys love it, we're going to do even more.
34:14This is just a big test.
34:15Yeah, we'd love to do a whole season of these for you guys.
34:18So thank you so much for supporting us.
34:20We want to keep making new things for you.
34:21And until next time.
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