Northern Ireland Secretary Hilary Benn has indicated the Government is “close” to a fresh agreement on how to deal with the legacy of the Troubles

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Northern Ireland Secretary Hilary Benn has indicated the Government is “close” to a fresh agreement on how to deal with the legacy of the Troubles.   Mr Benn said a framework has been created following discussions with the Irish Government including significant reform of the Independent Commission for Reconciliation and Information Recovery (ICRIR) as well as protections for army veterans.   Appearing before the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee on Wednesday, he described dealing with the past as the “unfinished business” of the Belfast/Good Friday Agreement from 1998.

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00:00Having the Commission looking at it at the same time as a public inquiry is investigating

00:05what could have been done to try and prevent it. I don't think that that would be a sensible approach.

00:10With respect, Secretary of State, you just read out one paragraph of the Memorandum of Understanding

00:16which reiterates the frustration in all of this. It is about identifying what UK state authorities

00:23could have done to prevent the atrocity at OMA. Do you accept, whilst you were presenting

00:30it as significant progress and I less so, do you accept that the Irish Government are

00:37under an obligation to construct their own inquiry to answer this question? What steps

00:44could the Irish Government and Irish authorities have taken to prevent the bomb that was constructed

00:51in their state, transported from their state, the team returned to their state, and they

00:57were under state agency observation.

01:01What I just, for the record, what I just read out was not from the Memorandum of Understanding.

01:06It was from the terms of reference.

01:07It was from the OMA inquiry terms of reference.

01:10It's the same issue. The terms of reference are framed around answering whether UK state

01:18authorities could have done more to prevent the atrocity. That means it is with the terms

01:24of reference as to whether the Irish authorities could have done anything to prevent the atrocity,

01:29which is why Lord Justice Horner recommended in 2021 that there should be parallel inquiries

01:34at the same time. And since our exchange, and I predicted this, it is now why the OMA families

01:40are having to seek recourse through the Irish courts to compel an inquiry. So the question

01:46is, is the British Secretary of State, who's engaged with the Irish Government and is surrendering

01:52his ability, your ability, to determine how we deal with legacy, are you pushing the Irish

02:00Government? Are you seeking to create an outcome that will satisfy the desire of the OMA families

02:07to seek justice for their loved ones?

02:10I would emphatically reject the suggestion that I am surrendering anything to anybody.

02:20Since I came into Post 14 months ago, committed to repeal and replace the legacy, I've been

02:27looking to try and find a way forward which is not going to please everybody. And we have

02:35to acknowledge this, because I read very carefully the summary of the evidence you've taken

02:41when you wrote to me, Chair, in June. And on the one hand, people said they want this,

02:46and on the other hand, people said they want that. And those two views are not reconcilable

02:50in a number of respects. So it falls to the Government to try and find a way forward.

02:54It is for the Irish Government to decide what they wish to do within Ireland. And the OMA families,

03:01of course, have the right to pursue all means at their disposal to try and find a satisfactory

03:08way forward. But I would just say about the memorandum of understanding, while we had exchange

03:15of views previously and are having them again today about what it may or may not produce,

03:19I think we need to see what comes out of the unprecedented commitment that the Irish Government has given

03:27in the form of that MOU to cooperate with an inquiry in another jurisdiction. And we haven't got to the

03:33point yet where we see what information is made available. And the time to judge that is,

03:38I would say, is when we see what comes forward, rather than saying it's never going to work because

03:45it's not going to produce anything of any use.

03:46Secretary of State, the OMA families will be sitting there today and will have only taken

03:51from your answers that you are not doing anything, anything, to push the Irish Government to create

04:00a parallel inquiry, or through this negotiation, encouraging them to engage in a way that doesn't

04:07answer whether it was solely the responsibility of the UK authorities to prevent this atrocity,

04:12but that the Irish have answers, questions to answer as well. And as you know, in our last

04:18exchange, I described the position as immoral, and the stance as shameful. And I don't think

04:24there's anything of encouragement what you've said today for the OMA families.

04:28Well, I wouldn't agree with that. And for those who are watching our exchanges today, as they

04:35did when we last discussed this, the memorandum of understanding provides the opportunity for

04:42information to be provided by the Irish Government to the public inquiry.

04:48To answer one question, but not to answer the other side of a very important point.

04:55Well, of course I've discussed with the Irish Government their position on having their own

05:01way of looking at it, but their position is well known. And in an agreement, you're only

05:07able to agree things where both parties share the same view. But I think the time to make

05:14that judgment is not now about what the MOU will produce. It's when we see how the MOU

05:19works in practice, because it's not happened before. And if you think of other contexts, if

05:26you imagine the UK Government cooperating with a public inquiry in another jurisdiction and saying

05:32that we will provide information, I can't think of any parallels, and that's why I welcome the

05:37memorandum of understanding as being a step forward. And I know you take a different view, but we will

05:41probably have to agree to disagree on that.

05:43Okay. There's no question that Oberbaum had a cross-border dimension, and it is absolutely right in terms of

05:52getting at truth for the families that it should have disclosure and participation, which is why it was a huge

05:58error of the previous Government to establish an inquiry with no legislative vehicle, no defined MOU,

06:05no vehicle to have active participation from any State representative, no Guardie, no Army intelligence

06:12and no diplomacy. And it's the will of the Assembly as well that that inquiry will have full participation

06:20in whatever way that can be worked out. But in the Disclosure MOU, it says as well that there may be

06:26reductions include, at paragraph 36, including matters that may damage the economic interests of

06:32Ireland or the UK. What has that got to do with getting to the truth of an atrocity? And do you

06:36have any anxiety about what information such a broad clause might cover up?

06:41Well, in the MOU?

06:44Well, that is something that the Irish have put into the MOU, and I think one would have to ask them the question,

06:53what did you have? Do you have any anxiety about what might that uncover or cover?

07:01It depends in what circumstances that was operated. I should just add that as well as providing information,

07:08there is also an undertaking to ensure that witnesses from Ireland can be called. And that too is extremely

07:19welcome. It's a very long memorandum of understanding, and it does reflect the

07:26unprecedented nature of the cooperation which the Irish Government is offering to the OMA Inquiry,

07:31which is referred to on a number of occasions when you read the full text of it.

07:39Yeah, I think that's what I would say.

07:40We'll pick up on Disclosure, but the families are participating in hope and after decades,

07:48and I know it is just uncommon on everybody to make sure that their investment of time and

07:54energy and all others should not be in vain. It's important that they get maximum disclosure from

08:02that, and broad clauses like that, with all that we know about suppression of information over the

08:08decades, do not set the tone very well. Thank you.

08:12Thank you. Moving on, Dr Al Pinkerton.

08:16Thank you, and thank you all for being here this morning. I'm going to move us on to a package of

08:21questions about the ICRIR. So over the last few months as a committee, we've taken a lot of

08:26evidence from witnesses about the faith or the lack of faith that they have in the ICRIR, and that

08:33lack of faith seems to spring from the realisation, the belief that the ICRIR is a product of the Legacy

08:40Act, of course it is, and that there's a sense that the Legacy Act was introduced purely to curtail

08:46investigations into veterans. And because the ICRIR is a child of the Legacy Act, there is

08:53distrust that has been expressed about that particular institution, even if there's a faith

08:58in those who are leading it. So can I ask you what the government intends to do to address those

09:05concerns and to try and gain trust from across all communities in a reformed commission?

09:11Well, I think the lack of trust on the part of quite a lot of people in Northern Ireland,

09:18in the commission, in the form and circumstances in which it was created, stem from two things.

09:25One is the wider context, everything else shut down,

09:30inquests that were taking place closed, civil cases stopped, and the, in respect of civil

09:41government, the unlawfulcription.com.

09:44For us, I want to apologize.

09:45It's very vague, I'm the way I want to touch on the UNED.

09:48One is the WGB, I'm the way I'm working in, which I think of that.

09:52But a lot of people have been asking me, which I really need to do,

09:54I'm not going to think of this indeed.

09:55I'm going to say you're going to say you're going to be a better one,

09:58I'm just going to go back.

09:59Well, it's not going to be a better one, but that is one of the first things I'm

10:02just going to stay the one.

10:03You know what?

10:04And that's what I'm going to do, if it's not going to be a better one

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