00:00Having the Commission looking at it at the same time as a public inquiry is investigating
00:05what could have been done to try and prevent it. I don't think that that would be a sensible approach.
00:10With respect, Secretary of State, you just read out one paragraph of the Memorandum of Understanding
00:16which reiterates the frustration in all of this. It is about identifying what UK state authorities
00:23could have done to prevent the atrocity at OMA. Do you accept, whilst you were presenting
00:30it as significant progress and I less so, do you accept that the Irish Government are
00:37under an obligation to construct their own inquiry to answer this question? What steps
00:44could the Irish Government and Irish authorities have taken to prevent the bomb that was constructed
00:51in their state, transported from their state, the team returned to their state, and they
00:57were under state agency observation.
01:01What I just, for the record, what I just read out was not from the Memorandum of Understanding.
01:06It was from the terms of reference.
01:07It was from the OMA inquiry terms of reference.
01:10It's the same issue. The terms of reference are framed around answering whether UK state
01:18authorities could have done more to prevent the atrocity. That means it is with the terms
01:24of reference as to whether the Irish authorities could have done anything to prevent the atrocity,
01:29which is why Lord Justice Horner recommended in 2021 that there should be parallel inquiries
01:34at the same time. And since our exchange, and I predicted this, it is now why the OMA families
01:40are having to seek recourse through the Irish courts to compel an inquiry. So the question
01:46is, is the British Secretary of State, who's engaged with the Irish Government and is surrendering
01:52his ability, your ability, to determine how we deal with legacy, are you pushing the Irish
02:00Government? Are you seeking to create an outcome that will satisfy the desire of the OMA families
02:07to seek justice for their loved ones?
02:10I would emphatically reject the suggestion that I am surrendering anything to anybody.
02:20Since I came into Post 14 months ago, committed to repeal and replace the legacy, I've been
02:27looking to try and find a way forward which is not going to please everybody. And we have
02:35to acknowledge this, because I read very carefully the summary of the evidence you've taken
02:41when you wrote to me, Chair, in June. And on the one hand, people said they want this,
02:46and on the other hand, people said they want that. And those two views are not reconcilable
02:50in a number of respects. So it falls to the Government to try and find a way forward.
02:54It is for the Irish Government to decide what they wish to do within Ireland. And the OMA families,
03:01of course, have the right to pursue all means at their disposal to try and find a satisfactory
03:08way forward. But I would just say about the memorandum of understanding, while we had exchange
03:15of views previously and are having them again today about what it may or may not produce,
03:19I think we need to see what comes out of the unprecedented commitment that the Irish Government has given
03:27in the form of that MOU to cooperate with an inquiry in another jurisdiction. And we haven't got to the
03:33point yet where we see what information is made available. And the time to judge that is,
03:38I would say, is when we see what comes forward, rather than saying it's never going to work because
03:45it's not going to produce anything of any use.
03:46Secretary of State, the OMA families will be sitting there today and will have only taken
03:51from your answers that you are not doing anything, anything, to push the Irish Government to create
04:00a parallel inquiry, or through this negotiation, encouraging them to engage in a way that doesn't
04:07answer whether it was solely the responsibility of the UK authorities to prevent this atrocity,
04:12but that the Irish have answers, questions to answer as well. And as you know, in our last
04:18exchange, I described the position as immoral, and the stance as shameful. And I don't think
04:24there's anything of encouragement what you've said today for the OMA families.
04:28Well, I wouldn't agree with that. And for those who are watching our exchanges today, as they
04:35did when we last discussed this, the memorandum of understanding provides the opportunity for
04:42information to be provided by the Irish Government to the public inquiry.
04:48To answer one question, but not to answer the other side of a very important point.
04:55Well, of course I've discussed with the Irish Government their position on having their own
05:01way of looking at it, but their position is well known. And in an agreement, you're only
05:07able to agree things where both parties share the same view. But I think the time to make
05:14that judgment is not now about what the MOU will produce. It's when we see how the MOU
05:19works in practice, because it's not happened before. And if you think of other contexts, if
05:26you imagine the UK Government cooperating with a public inquiry in another jurisdiction and saying
05:32that we will provide information, I can't think of any parallels, and that's why I welcome the
05:37memorandum of understanding as being a step forward. And I know you take a different view, but we will
05:41probably have to agree to disagree on that.
05:43Okay. There's no question that Oberbaum had a cross-border dimension, and it is absolutely right in terms of
05:52getting at truth for the families that it should have disclosure and participation, which is why it was a huge
05:58error of the previous Government to establish an inquiry with no legislative vehicle, no defined MOU,
06:05no vehicle to have active participation from any State representative, no Guardie, no Army intelligence
06:12and no diplomacy. And it's the will of the Assembly as well that that inquiry will have full participation
06:20in whatever way that can be worked out. But in the Disclosure MOU, it says as well that there may be
06:26reductions include, at paragraph 36, including matters that may damage the economic interests of
06:32Ireland or the UK. What has that got to do with getting to the truth of an atrocity? And do you
06:36have any anxiety about what information such a broad clause might cover up?
06:41Well, in the MOU?
06:44Well, that is something that the Irish have put into the MOU, and I think one would have to ask them the question,
06:53what did you have? Do you have any anxiety about what might that uncover or cover?
07:01It depends in what circumstances that was operated. I should just add that as well as providing information,
07:08there is also an undertaking to ensure that witnesses from Ireland can be called. And that too is extremely
07:19welcome. It's a very long memorandum of understanding, and it does reflect the
07:26unprecedented nature of the cooperation which the Irish Government is offering to the OMA Inquiry,
07:31which is referred to on a number of occasions when you read the full text of it.
07:39Yeah, I think that's what I would say.
07:40We'll pick up on Disclosure, but the families are participating in hope and after decades,
07:48and I know it is just uncommon on everybody to make sure that their investment of time and
07:54energy and all others should not be in vain. It's important that they get maximum disclosure from
08:02that, and broad clauses like that, with all that we know about suppression of information over the
08:08decades, do not set the tone very well. Thank you.
08:12Thank you. Moving on, Dr Al Pinkerton.
08:16Thank you, and thank you all for being here this morning. I'm going to move us on to a package of
08:21questions about the ICRIR. So over the last few months as a committee, we've taken a lot of
08:26evidence from witnesses about the faith or the lack of faith that they have in the ICRIR, and that
08:33lack of faith seems to spring from the realisation, the belief that the ICRIR is a product of the Legacy
08:40Act, of course it is, and that there's a sense that the Legacy Act was introduced purely to curtail
08:46investigations into veterans. And because the ICRIR is a child of the Legacy Act, there is
08:53distrust that has been expressed about that particular institution, even if there's a faith
08:58in those who are leading it. So can I ask you what the government intends to do to address those
09:05concerns and to try and gain trust from across all communities in a reformed commission?
09:11Well, I think the lack of trust on the part of quite a lot of people in Northern Ireland,
09:18in the commission, in the form and circumstances in which it was created, stem from two things.
09:25One is the wider context, everything else shut down,
09:30inquests that were taking place closed, civil cases stopped, and the, in respect of civil
09:41government, the unlawfulcription.com.
09:44For us, I want to apologize.
09:45It's very vague, I'm the way I want to touch on the UNED.
09:48One is the WGB, I'm the way I'm working in, which I think of that.
09:52But a lot of people have been asking me, which I really need to do,
09:54I'm not going to think of this indeed.
09:55I'm going to say you're going to say you're going to be a better one,
09:58I'm just going to go back.
09:59Well, it's not going to be a better one, but that is one of the first things I'm
10:02just going to stay the one.
10:03You know what?
10:04And that's what I'm going to do, if it's not going to be a better one
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