ServiceNow CMO Colin Fleming Makes A Case For Doing Less, Exceptionally

Forbes

In this episode, Colin and I talk about why he drove a strategic shift from product-led marketing to brand-led, the end of the funnel, what all marketing—and buying—has in common, and how simplicity can help anchor marketing in times of great complexity.  Subscribe to FORBES: https://www.youtube.com/user/Forbes?sub_confirmation=1  :00 - Introduction: Why We Shifted from Product-Led to Brand-Led Growth 1:52 - How to Convince a Skeptical CFO of Your Brand's Value 5:21 - Using 'Inconvenient Truths' to Drive Long-Term Strategy 8:12 - Orchestrating Short-Term Wins and Long-Term Brand Building 10:29 - Why We Cut Lead Generation by 50% (And It Worked) 13:21 - The B2B Marketing Funnel is Dead. Here's What We Do Instead. 15:44 - What B2C Can Learn from B2B (and Vice Versa) 18:25 - Why Has B2B Marketing Traditionally Been So Bad? 21:04 - 'Project Marie Kondo': How We Cut 200 Campaigns Down to 6 24:50 - Finding Your DNA: How to Create Differentiated Work 27:32 - Lessons from a Former Race Car Driver 30:57 - Why You Have to Embrace Strategic Risk 33:17 - When AI Does the Work, Brand IS the Work 36:31 - How to Build Brand Trust in a Trustless World  Fuel your success with Forbes. Gain unlimited access to premium journalism, including breaking news, groundbreaking in-depth reported stories, daily digests and more. Plus, members get a front-row seat at members-only events with leading thinkers and doers, access to premium video that can help you get ahead, an ad-light experience, early access to select products including NFT drops and more:  https://account.forbes.com/membership/?utm_source=youtube&utm_medium=display&utm_campaign=growth_non-sub_paid_subscribe_ytdescript  Stay Connected Forbes newsletters: https://newsletters.editorial.forbes.com Forbes on Facebook: http://fb.com/forbes Forbes Video on Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/forbes Forbes Video on Instagram: http://instagram.com/forbes More From Forbes:  http://forbes.com  Forbes covers the intersection of entrepreneurship, wealth, technology, business and lifestyle with a focus on people and success.

Transcript

00:00All right, Colin, so you get to service now 16 months ago, it's May of 24, and amongst

00:09the very first things you do is evolve company strategy from being product-led to brand-led.

00:16Why did you do it, and what does a CEO need to understand about the differences between

00:21the two approaches and when it may make sense to choose one for the other?

00:25You know, I think it's one of those examples of, it's a perfect example of what got us

00:29here won't get us there.

00:31I think, you know, you see a lot of companies when you reach that 10 billion, some odd threshold

00:35where you just have to become a bigger company and tell a bigger story, and that's what this

00:39was in service of.

00:41One of the reasons why Bill hired me was to do exactly that, to build a bigger story, and

00:46I do think a couple things were true.

00:47We had a world-class, one-of-one product that was beloved by IT departments around the world,

00:52but it didn't add up to a big enough story, and so there wasn't enough emotion around

00:57it.

00:57We needed to shift to tell that bigger story, and so it was about connecting the platform's

01:03brilliance to real-world transformation, and we did that especially at a time where all

01:07software companies are chasing the same AI dream, so we needed to find relevance, and

01:11we needed to tell a bigger story as a result of that.

01:13So Bill obviously understood something, if only implicitly, about the importance of kind

01:21of the bigger story, and I'm not sure, at least the premise of this show is that not

01:28enough CEOs, CFOs, and for that matter, boards do understand that.

01:34If you were going to explain the business-building value, the strategic efficacy of story and narrative

01:41to a huge company's chief executive who doesn't understand it, where would you start?

01:49You know, I think there's a few ways to accomplish it, but I do think when you look at any large

01:52organization, the brand is often the most valuable asset that they own, in many cases,

01:58if not all, and so why would you not treat that with the same tender love and care that

02:03you might with your flagship product or your cash cow in that context, and so we really

02:10try to treat it as an asset.

02:12So can I ask you, forgive me for interrupting, let me ask you, however, to answer the question

02:18you posed, which is why not treat it like the asset that it is, but we know that a lot of

02:24massive enterprises don't view their brand or brands, for that matter, in the same way.

02:31They may view the corporate brand in that context, but the brands within a multi-brand

02:36portfolio aren't necessarily understood to be that and to do that, and I mean, in fact,

02:41I'm thinking right now about one of the biggest CMO jobs to have been filled in one of the biggest

02:47categories globally over the past couple of years.

02:51I know a number of people who interviewed for it, when they were interviewing for it, the CFO said

02:57to them, first note, I don't believe in brand, and so let's just use that CFO as an example.

03:06Why not, given that, and to your point, intangible asset valuations are driving M&A activity and

03:18brand and goodwill, and the goodwill engendered by brand are the biggest part of that.

03:22Well, whoever that CFO is, remind me never to work for them.

03:26For sure.

03:27I'll tell you offline.

03:29Fair enough.

03:30You know, I think a couple things are true.

03:31I think when you look at any sort of business, a couple things have to be true.

03:36You have to make sure you treat your valuable assets with all the love and care that you want,

03:41that you need to as a business, and it is a CMO's job to educate said CFO about the long-term

03:47strategic importance.

03:49CFOs have their surface area they've got to cover, and many of them are brilliant at doing

03:54what they do, but a CMO cannot go in there and just make assumptions, and what seems obvious to a

03:59CMO is obvious to everybody because there's context shifting that has to happen, so it is our

04:03job to educate, and never have I walked into a CFO and just started from day one with a common

04:09understanding of what the value of a brand is.

04:11It is our job to talk about long-term valuation and differentiating assets and distinctive assets

04:16and think about these kinds of things, and so I do think it is a two-way street, and you have to

04:21get them there, not only the CFO, but the board, and in some cases, the CEO.

04:25So I do think it's, number one, the job of the CMO to sort of put that on the table, and those that

04:30choose not to do or just go in with click-through rates and multi-touch attribution models, that's

04:35not a way to live, and you don't see outcomes that way.

04:37It's certainly not a way to succeed, and I'm wondering if you have a story about, you know,

04:45one of the times you've had to educate, and I don't mean that pejoratively, but informed

04:49perhaps is a less pejorative word in this context, you know, a CFO about the value of what you're

04:59doing or what you want to do, and how that went.

05:03You know, what have you used that you find works with this audience?

05:08There have been some inconvenient truth motions where you come in and present a set of data

05:13points that is like a narrative violation of, I've worked for too many, a few now, but the last two

05:19have been incredible growth stories of, you know, almost insatiable growth, and sometimes you have

05:26to come in there and say, cool, look at what's happening, we're growing 30, 40 percent year on

05:30year, but it's not adding up to enough, it's not building a long enough mode, it's not building

05:34enough pricing power, category optionality, and you've got to present the long view.

05:39In some cases, it's true with ServiceNow today, we've done a really great job of telling the story

05:44of who we, you know, sort of the company itself, ServiceNow, but very few people can actually

05:50articulate what we do.

05:51That is a long-term strategic miss for the company that we have to remedy.

05:56And presenting, let's say, negative data points when the company's growing as rapidly

06:00as it is, sometimes can be a bit of a faux pas in a large setting, but it doesn't make

06:05it not true.

06:06And I do think that that's being, you know, being confident, a confident CMO and realizing

06:10that your job is there to drive current trajectory and current growth of the organization, but

06:17also positioning for the long-term is really, really important.

06:18So balancing those short-term and long-term objectives is pretty critical.

06:21So being comfortable being able to tell those stories.

06:23And, you know, there have been moments when I've been told to never bring that data point

06:27back again, let's say, in the past.

06:29And foolish Colin, perhaps, or foolish any of us, really stays steadfast on what it really

06:33means.

06:34Yeah, you've got to have the courage of conviction.

06:36So, one, it occurs to me that I should, a quick disclaimer for our audience, let everyone

06:44know I have been a ServiceNow shareholder for, I don't know, six years, five years, seven

06:51years, years and years.

06:52And just want to make, say that more or less up front.

06:57But I'm also wondering, because you brought it up a couple of times about what advice you

07:03have for our C-suite friends in the audience about the relationship between the short-term

07:11and the long-term.

07:12I don't want to necessarily use the word the balance between them, because I think it's

07:19an orchestration between them.

07:21I think it's never losing sight of either of them.

07:24You know, what's your perspective on it?

07:26Because with a CFO in particular, CEOs too, of course, so oftentimes myopically focused

07:33on this quarter and this quarter's earnings and next quarter's numbers and how you're

07:41going to communicate the same to the street.

07:43You know, long-term can sometimes perhaps seem a luxury that doesn't have a return on

07:47investment in a calendar that matters.

07:51So, how do you talk to them about it?

07:53And what advice would you give them on how to think about it?

07:55Yeah, you know, it's challenging because, you know, many of the brand-level long-term

08:01measures take quite some time to move.

08:05But you do see behavioral distinctions that happen in that period of time.

08:08And so, one of the things that I've tried to be really clear about in the organization,

08:11even in the interview process, was I'm going to bring you data that might have holes in

08:16it, or I'm going to bring you data that shows directional trajectory, but not a matter-of-fact

08:23trajectory.

08:23And if you look at awareness or consideration or purchase preferences, those show movement.

08:28But in some cases, it could take years to actually show much movement.

08:33And so, one of the things we've been able to garner in terms of where we choose to invest

08:36is like, look, I'm making this decision to invest more in brand as I have with ServiceNow,

08:41based on these five behavioral things that I am seeing in this gap in the data.

08:45And I do think what CMOs can do more and more of is come back around after we've made that

08:50decision and show has it actually earned credit or not.

08:55Did our hypothesis come true?

08:56And I do think that that trust and transparency, even if the data is flawed, even if you are

09:01wrong, does earn trust along the way.

09:04And I do think that trust with the board or trust with the C-suite is really job number

09:09one for a CMO because there is so much art and science contained within it.

09:13I won't use the word balance, but you've got to showcase both.

09:16And I think that many marketers, and I've been foul of this myself in the past, it's easy

09:21to go into the factual short-term measures and say that is the full story.

09:26But we all know by looking at buying trajectories and buying patterns that there's a much more

09:30complex onion.

09:32And in the shift, going back to the first question from product-led growth to brand-led,

09:38what metrics have you left to the side and what have you renewed or begun to focus on

09:48to make sure that the trajectory is heading where you want or to know that it's not, which

09:54is, you know, an inevitability sometimes so that you can course correct.

09:59Yeah.

10:00A couple of things we did was we moved the idea of a lead, which is obviously the lifeblood

10:04of many B2B organizations.

10:06We've moved it from an outcome to simply a signal.

10:08And I, you know, perhaps famously now dropped lead generation by about 50% of the company

10:14in my first year, which is usually a recipe for being fired as a CMO.

10:20But we sort of knew that if we went for quality over quantity, we would see conversions up.

10:25We would see trajectory go more strongly and things like this.

10:28And thankfully, all those things came true.

10:31And so what seemed like a short-term measure, Colin should be fired, ended up being a long-term

10:36boom for us as a company.

10:37And we did that by realizing a few things.

10:40Number one is that it's not an individual lead that buys a product in B2B.

10:44It's a buying group of upwards of 20, 30 people that come together to make these purchasing

10:49decisions.

10:49That's a critical thing, right?

10:52We know that roughly 90% of the time, the first brand that comes to somebody's mind is

10:56the one they end up purchasing.

10:58Is that right?

10:5990% of the time, according to Harvard Business Review.

11:01So if you're not part of that initial consideration set, you're not getting bought.

11:05And what we found is we simply weren't top of mind.

11:07We didn't have that mental availability.

11:09And so we needed to focus more on telling the bigger story and being more relevant in

11:13the AI conversations.

11:15Instead of just chasing leads down a funnel and optimizing that within an inch of its life,

11:19we're still highly proficient at that.

11:21But it's not in service of itself.

11:23It's just in service of the broader goal.

11:24Yeah, which is, I think, an important lesson for the marketers in the audience as well,

11:31which is you've got to measure what matters, not just everything that you can measure.

11:38And at the end of the day, there are only so many things that matter.

11:42And I think that the perspective that the lead is an input and for leads to be down and conversions

11:49up is quite a justification of the strategy.

11:55You talked about the funnel just a moment ago in passing.

12:01And I know, like many in our global marketing community, you have the perspective, I share it

12:09for what it's worth, that the funnel, such as it has been, has been laid to rest.

12:15Actually, I don't know if it's been laid to rest, but it's dead.

12:17Talk about the end of the funnel from your perspective and what that means and what the

12:24implications are.

12:26How does it change things in a way that the rest of the C-suite needs to understand?

12:31You know, I have built a lot of funnel slides in my day, and it's a very convenient mechanism

12:38for communicating a much more complex story that actually exists.

12:43It's not a linear trajectory.

12:44We talked about those 22 people that influence, on average, a B2B buying journey.

12:50Those people are not at the same place.

12:53Some of them are early indicators.

12:55Some of them are highly adapted, maybe have experience with your product or service.

12:59And so it is loops.

13:01It is not a funnel because as you're dealing with hidden buyers, obvious buyers, there's

13:06a myriad of determinations.

13:07And so I do think that the more you look at actually how buying happens, the more you realize

13:13that you can't use, it's not linear.

13:15And when you take it back at, when I look at how people buy service now, if I look back

13:20at a deal we won, there's some hundreds, if not thousands of touch points that happen

13:25over a given buying cycle that all add up to something meaningful, but it doesn't mean

13:31that it happens in a linear trajectory.

13:32And so we've moved to what we call a buying group orientation, where we just make sure

13:37that we communicate the value of service now at certain points, and they don't happen

13:41at the same point.

13:42They don't happen at the same time.

13:43So a CFO may be, well, who the heck is service now?

13:46And the platform administrator may say, this is where I've spent my life.

13:50You have to treat them equally because they equal hold influence.

13:52And I do think that's a different mindset.

13:54And I do think those that have taken the time to really understand how people buy in B2B

14:00blatantly disregard the idea of a funnel.

14:03If we think about how buying happens in B2B, B2C, just amongst human beings, what can you

14:11tell us?

14:12What are your thoughts on how buying happens?

14:16And then how do you manage planning in a nonlinear buying universe?

14:24It becomes more gray, that is for sure.

14:26It's easy to draw a funnel slide, and say, we're going to invest X, Y, and Z at certain

14:30stages of the funnel.

14:31It's much more complex than that.

14:33I think this is where, as much as we try to separate or drive some separation between B2B

14:38and B2C, the same components are true.

14:41Do you trust the brand?

14:42Is it the right place for you?

14:44All the same qualities are true, they just maybe happen over longer-term cycles, and

14:49there's more people involved.

14:51But it's not too dissimilar.

14:53And so I actually spent a lot of time taking tips and tricks from my friends in B2C, just

14:58how we might learn about building brands, making sure you have that top-of-mind mental availability.

15:05Because if that HBR summary I shared with you before, 90% of the people buy the first brand

15:09that comes to mind, the game is totally different.

15:11The attribution model tells us that we should spend all of our money in down-funnel activities

15:17to convert those that are already made up their minds.

15:20But human behavior and actually observing the buying cycle says it's a brand game.

15:25And I don't think a lot of B2B marketers have figured that out yet.

15:28And maybe we're misled, but every data point that I've seen in the last 10 years tells me

15:33that's the place to go, which is why we've invested much more on the brand side and rebalanced

15:39that materially.

15:39Because I just do believe the game is on that mental availability.

15:45You're very much on the record about your thoughts on how B2B marketing needs to change.

15:54And I want to get to that in a second.

15:55But before going there, you just said you try and take some tips from your friends in

16:01the B2C world, from B2C marketing methods and madness.

16:05I'm wondering what tips you think B2B might have to offer the B2C marketers in the audience,

16:11B2C CEOs and CFOs in the audience that perhaps they've not considered.

16:15That's interesting.

16:18We usually work the other way around.

16:20But it's interesting on the last, you know, I think having spent nearly my entire career

16:24after some time with Red Bull, my entire career has been essentially been in B2B.

16:29And I do think that the best B2B companies are able to measure and optimize and build scalable,

16:34repeatable revenue systems better than B2C has.

16:37If you look at the direct-to-consumer model, it's SaaS from 15 years ago or software as a

16:42service.

16:43And that's the idea of subscription modeling and whatnot.

16:45So I do think that the operational rigor and how we connect marketing to that is probably

16:49pretty adept and pretty advanced in B2B that I think B2C can learn from.

16:56And one of the things that's sort of misunderstood in our world is B2B represents 70% of the GDP.

17:02But the marketing is not good in comparison.

17:06And, you know, as much as we try to, you know, be best of breed in that sense, comparatively

17:14B2C marketers run circles around B2B when it comes to creativity and culture, the ability

17:19to show, you know, shape culture and provocation.

17:22And I do think that it's really been a personal career mission of mine to simply reverse that

17:27and say, if B2B is 70% of the GDP, then we should have our fair share.

17:31We should be able to communicate in the same way and drive the same level of provocation and

17:36creativity and personality.

17:38And so, you know, my charter has just been to rally an organization to help us think like

17:43that and taking advantage of whatever we may have in stride as well.

17:47If you look back, right, which is, say, over time, why do you think B2B marketing has been

17:56what it has been, like, what was the fundamental miss or misunderstanding for that matter about

18:04its functionality, its functionality, it's not the word I mean, but it's how you should

18:12go to market as a B2B brand.

18:14What wasn't understood?

18:17I think there's probably a few things.

18:21One thing that I have become sharper in my, as my career has grown, has become more and

18:25more apparent to me is a B2B marketer's desire for credit through things like attribution models

18:32and stuff like this, it almost dictates an outcome that is not aligned with how people

18:37actually buy products and services.

18:40And so, therefore, you run to a common misconception of, you know, gate forms in front of every asset

18:47you have and PDF data sheets and things like this that are usually positioned at the later

18:52stage of the funnel.

18:53So, therefore, they get a lot of the credit and marketers end up chasing that and it makes

18:57it, it's a self-fulfilling prophecy in a way.

18:59But reality is when you take a step back and you do even more research about the buying journey,

19:04it's pretty clear that it's more a funnel than that.

19:05And so, I do think it's a pure desire for credit and proof that marketing is valuable.

19:11I don't know that that's particularly different than any other part of marketing, right?

19:17Which is to say, and I'm going to punch myself in the face when this is over for even bringing

19:22it up, but in the brand performance conversation, right?

19:25Why is performance, the language of which just makes me crazy because I believe as this audience

19:33knows, the brand is the greatest performance engine in the history of performance engines.

19:38But there's been such a migration to quote unquote proving based on, going back a little bit,

19:47but based on a last click, as if that last click was proof of anything but itself, right?

19:55It was proof of nothing that preceded it and led to it, which kind of brings me back, I

20:01think, in some ways to, again, your line about how buying happens.

20:08And I can't help but, as I listen to you, think that maybe B2C, to offer my own answer

20:14to my question, maybe some B2C marketers can, in fact, learn from how B2B approaches the buying

20:25cycle, right?

20:26Because there seems to be a great, I mean, obviously, or typically, the purchase size is

20:33significantly different.

20:36So there's an order of economic magnitude that is exponentially greater, of course.

20:41But I think, I think as a consequence, there's sometimes a greater understanding or disposition

20:47of kind of the economic buyers in the chain that maybe some B2C marketers could benefit

20:56from, from considering, right?

20:59You know, we talk about purchasers and influencers, and I don't mean influencers in a creator economy

21:04way, but, you know, um, this, the old trope is, you know, the cereal, um, uh, parent would

21:11buy, you know, they, they're the buyer, but the kid's saying, get me the sugar one.

21:16Um, so purchaser and influencer, and, and I wonder if there aren't ways, um, to think about

21:22it differently.

21:23And I, so I will leave that to the audience.

21:25Um, but, uh, um, so you come in 16 months ago, as I said, in the upfront, and as you know,

21:33because it's your career, um, and, and you, you make these changes, um, and you, you begin

21:41these shifts and I, I'm wondering what resist, obviously Bill was on board, but I'm wondering,

21:48um, what kinds of resistance you might've gotten, even from within the marketing org and

21:54how you, how you overcame it.

21:58Uh, I mean, of course, you know, it's when you, when you join an already successful company,

22:03um, there is a natural sense of what got us here will continue to grow us.

22:09Right.

22:09And I do think that like a lot of high growth companies, uh, we had built up a sense of

22:14incrementality inside the organization.

22:16We're growing 30%.

22:17So therefore we need to do 30% more things, um, next year.

22:22And, uh, you know, that's a natural, um, uh, answer to a lot of the questions when it

22:27comes to marketing strategy.

22:29Uh, but that growth can also hide inefficiency.

22:31And we chose to just, and there wasn't a lot of resistance here, but we chose to take a

22:35second and say, okay, if we've grown almost unbridledly 30% year on year, what's working,

22:43what's not, um, and really take a second to step back and say, okay, um, what's, you

22:48know, what, what should we be investing in more?

22:50Uh, and we found that a lot of our measures were oriented towards activity instead of

22:55achievement.

22:56And, uh, so we created this project inside the organization.

22:59I'll probably get in trouble for this, uh, calling it project Marie Kondo, where we just

23:03simply asked ourselves, what if we were to just take a step back and declutter and focus

23:07and measure the outcome instead of the input.

23:11And we found that a lot of what we were doing was not as effective as we thought it was.

23:15We were doing it just because it felt right instead of it was actually what the customers

23:19were asking for.

23:20So we ended up cutting content by 50%.

23:22We reduced our vendors by 63%.

23:24Uh, we moved from 200 campaigns down to six this past year.

23:28Um, we did less work at higher quality and we increased engagement by something.

23:32I had 66% or something to this effect.

23:34So it showed that the, the, the, the, the, the link between activity and achievement was

23:40not exactly the same and it was broken.

23:42And so it rarely is, it rarely is, but it's human nature for us to just add more as we

23:48scale the companies.

23:50And, uh, so we've proven that, you know, it doesn't have, that link doesn't have to exist

23:54and what an eyeopening moment for us to give time back to the marketing organization to

23:58say, Hey, we can take that extra bit and make this a little bit better of an asset or

24:02write that brief a little bit more strongly or do anything that is worth doing and take

24:07some time to invent new ideas.

24:09And I do think that that has been a breath of fresh air to the team and our employee

24:12survey results show it as well.

24:14And I do think that, uh, there's a lesson learned, um, in that, that I hope we can continue

24:19to learn from ourselves.

24:20You know, one of my biggest concerns, I have many concerns about, about where the world of

24:27marketing is going as, as it is transformed by the practice of marketing, I should say,

24:32as it is transformed by everything, uh, that it is, uh, being transformed by, but there seems

24:39to be this, this great emphasis on more and more faster that I can't help, but think is

24:46the last thing anybody actually needs.

24:48Um, because there's been, there's so much marketing, you know, that, that speaking kind

24:57of globally, universally, and broadly across every single category, every brand, every

25:02product, every service, who the fuck wants more marketing?

25:06Like there isn't a consumer, a buyer, a customer, a marketer out there who wants more marketing.

25:11And yet there does seem to be a focus on quantity, um, like the focus on efficiency

25:17over effectiveness, quantity, uh, um, presupposes quality.

25:21And that math just doesn't line up.

25:24Um, what'd you guys do with the time you got back?

25:28You know, I was, uh, I have a young daughter who, um, is of course obsessed with Taylor Swift

25:33as we all are.

25:34And what she's done to me is, it's just truly amazing.

25:36In her recent podcast, she's made references to somebody like, you're just saying words at

25:41this point.

25:41And we sort of use that as an analogy, which is like, we're creating marketing.

25:45It's just saying words, but it doesn't stand up for anything.

25:47And so, you know, one of the things we did was we found ourselves with the time and ability

25:52to say, how do we show up as one company?

25:54How do we show up as, as with a common message in a common language that when you add it up,

26:00when we add it all up, it adds up to something that's greater than some of its parts.

26:03Cause that wasn't the case, um, in, in prior.

26:06So I do think that it allowed us more time to be more planful, um, and a little bit more

26:12focused on what we ultimately wanted to say and making sure that it was highly differentiated.

26:17It gave us time to experiment with technology like artificial intelligence that allowed us

26:20to be even more efficient and therefore more, more impactful along the way.

26:25So it was really just a, uh, it was just a time back game and allows us to, um, put more time

26:32and emphasis into finding that relevance.

26:33We talked about at the beginning and making sure that everything we did moved the message

26:38forward instead of just repeated it unnecessarily.

26:42How do you, how do you hold yourselves accountable is the right word, but it, it feels a bit more

26:51punitive than I intend for it to do, but, but how do you, how do you hold the work accountable

26:56to always answering the question?

26:59Why us when every single piece of work, every post, every promotion, every, everything has

27:06to answer that question over and over again.

27:09You know, there's, uh, um, there's the proverbial sign, believe sign over the door at ServiceNow.

27:16We, we say now do less exceptionally, um, and I do think that, um, a couple of things that

27:22I think are really, really important for us is, you know, is it exceptional?

27:25Is it elite?

27:26The phrase elite level execution is, is, uh, literally the name of our, uh, of our communication

27:32groups.

27:33Um, and so we hold everything up to a certain common standard and we sort of judge ourselves

27:38by the quality of our work, not by the outcomes or the, uh, or the, uh, volume of content

27:44we create.

27:45And I do think that's been a fundamental mindset shift along the way.

27:48Um, but you know, another thing that we look at is, can we put our logo on, if we can put

27:53any other logo on anything we produce, it's wrong.

27:56And so that level of differentiation and uniqueness and clarity of thought, um, has to be pervasive.

28:02And so I do think that less bureaucracy and putting more people in charge of approvals,

28:07but giving us a forum to share work and in the most positive intent way possible, communicate

28:15whether or not we think it achieves that goal.

28:16And I do think that we get the best input from some of the most junior members of the

28:20team by doing so.

28:21And it's created this little awesome environment inside the company that just gives us the ability

28:25to be self-critical along the work.

28:27And I think that's been a big cultural shift for us as well.

28:29So I want to push a little bit on what you just said about, you know, the, the, um, evaluation

28:36of, you know, if you could put anybody else's logo on the work, it's the wrong work.

28:41Um, that's a pretty fantastic aspiration, but I think in my experience, having been client

28:47side, agency side in particular, it's from the agency side, my whole career, it's, it's

28:52kind of a, if you'll allow me, I think it's, it's a, it's a bit of a foolhardy expectation.

28:59Great aspiration, silly expectation, because, you know, I think about all the times, you

29:04know, a client would have said to us at the agency, you know, is this ownable?

29:08And we're like, if you do it first, it is, but otherwise no.

29:12Right.

29:13Like, you know, um, and, and, and so I'm wondering if you can talk a little bit about how you create

29:23that, that different defensible differentiation so that you're like, yeah, only this and only

29:31us, like unpack that for the audience.

29:34Yeah.

29:34I think our job as CMOs or any marketing leader is to find the DNA of the company, um, and

29:39just point a big shining light on it and find the best and best parts of it.

29:44And just extrapolate that to the best degree.

29:47You know, the things that we're doing here at service now are much, much different than

29:50I've done in my past.

29:51It's not like we repeated the same playbook.

29:53Um, and if you look at some of the things we've done, it's really driving off the optimism

29:58of a San Diego based company that just truly wants to help.

30:01The company was founded on simply being helpful.

30:04And, um, I do think that that's a, that's a huge part of everything that we do is making

30:08sure that the DNA roots of service now.

30:11And there's a story about a woman called Phyllis.

30:13That was really the reason why we created the company that, you know, pointing back to Phyllis,

30:17is this, would, would Phyllis find this impactful, would Phyllis find this helpful and making

30:22sure that, um, as the world goes to artificial intelligence, we give it an optimistic concept.

30:27We're going to put AI to work and we're going to do it for people.

30:30Um, where everybody's talking about speeds and feeds about large language models and

30:34RAG and all these things.

30:35We're going to say, we're going to help you put it to work and then we're going to do

30:37it to make your people better than what they are and better what they can actually do

30:40with their time in their lives.

30:41Um, it's just taking a mindset and the journey that we're all facing and finding an optimistic

30:47bent towards it.

30:48And I do think that a lot of the work went from hiring Idris Elba to this cast that we've

30:52represented in our work that actually represents the buying groups that we talked about before

30:56to a T.

30:58Um, and just giving it a wink and a nod with optimism behind it has been the way we have

31:02found to differentiate ourselves.

31:04Um, and ever, for every company, it's different.

31:07In my past, it was another lens that we would pull on it.

31:09But I do think that our job is not to create or bring a culture or a DNA to the organization.

31:14It is to find that intrinsic DNA within the organization and extrapolate it from there.

31:19Yeah.

31:20And, and do it in a way that matters to the audience you're trying to reach and influence.

31:24And I, I have to say, I, I love the simplicity of being helpful.

31:29I, I've, I've, um, I talk a lot about more brands, more businesses needing to think like,

31:36uh, Mr. Rogers, which is to, to point to, you know, if you remember, he used to say, you

31:42know, in times of trouble, look for the helpers and he would encourage his, his audience to

31:48be the helper.

31:48And, and I think, I think, um, more brands and businesses would do well to consider that

31:55every brand and every business is ultimately in the quality of life business, which is you're

32:00making somebody's life easier on some metric.

32:02Right.

32:03Um, and, and, you know, if you're not helpful, you're just taking up space and time.

32:09Um, it's true that, that, um, inspiration can come from everywhere.

32:14Look at what we just covered.

32:15We covered Mr. Rogers and Marie Kondo as inspiration in a marketing conversation.

32:19Do not tell me that they're not sources of inspiration anywhere you look.

32:22It's pretty phenomenal actually.

32:24Yeah.

32:24All right.

32:24Well, you know what I was thinking about starting here, but I obviously did not.

32:29But, um, as, as you and I were talking about right before I hit record and clapped us in

32:3514 times, um, I didn't know until recently that you used to be, um, a race car driver.

32:42You were a racer and, and, um, I'm wondering what inspiration you take from that, that we can,

32:50you know, add to Mr. Rogers and Marie Kondo.

32:53How, how has your experience as a driver, um, influenced what you do?

32:59You know, it's, uh, I've never seen it asked that way, which is really interesting.

33:04A couple of things come to my mind.

33:05One of the things that I love about former athletes or professionals in this context is,

33:11um, anytime you can, anytime you compete on the world stage, you are quite adept at finding

33:17that last 1% of 1% to find ways to differentiate or stand, uh, stand apart or, or outperform.

33:24And I do think that that, um, is something that is, uh, almost missing that grit, that

33:32determination, that focus.

33:34If you look at like a Nick Drake at Google who I admire or, um, you know, a Kobe Bryant or

33:39somebody that just well-adapted, just out working and out.

33:43By the way, Nick, you, you, you owe Colin thanks for putting you in the same breadth

33:49as Kobe, but you deserve to go.

33:55But I mean, you know, there's a countless examples of these.

33:57Caitlin Clark is another one that's sort of reinvented the sport.

34:00I think there's just, um, there is a mindset that I think we can, you know, there's textbooks,

34:04there's Ivy league schools, but then there's the mindset.

34:07And I think that mindset is, is I do not have an Ivy league education.

34:11I do not have a world-class marketing background, but I can tell you there's a lot of passion

34:15and great determination along the way.

34:17And I do think that that's something that I have carried with me from my, my background

34:21and maybe it's helped along the way.

34:23Yeah.

34:23And, and it does occur to me that some in our audience may not know that Nick was a professional

34:28rugby player in his, in his, uh, youth, um, thus, thus the reference, um, you know, I,

34:36I was, I had breakfast probably like six weeks ago now with, um, uh, Joe McEwen, who's the

34:42CMO of the McLaren F1 team, uh, when I was in London and she was talking about, and I'm

34:48sure this is very common to fans of the sport.

34:51I happen not to be a particularly educated fan of the sport, uh, a very casual one.

34:56Um, but how even sponsored decals on the car, like literally the smallest amount of weight

35:05can influence the fraction of a fraction of a second that can be the difference between

35:10first place and second place.

35:12Um, and, and I'd not thought about kind of the, the sometimes, uh, um, very large effects

35:19of very simple and small things.

35:22Um, and, and I'm kind of wondering, um, this is a terrible segue, but sorry, that wasn't

35:31even a segue.

35:32It was a tangent.

35:32It occurred to me.

35:33I shared it.

35:34She's wonderful.

35:35She's great doing a brilliant job.

35:37Um, how I've been thinking quietly since our conversation began about risk and appetite

35:45for risk and appetite for strategic risk.

35:48And, and I think about, you know, you, the growth trajectory that the business was on

35:54growing 30% year over year when you got there and, and kind of a, a, a, what would have seemed

36:00a very natural, you know, this is so not broken.

36:02Let us not fuck with it.

36:05Um, what's your perspective on the embrace of strategic risk?

36:10And does it bring us back to kind of the relationship between the short and long-term and what happens

36:15in between them?

36:16And, um, what are, what are some of the bigger strategic risks, um, beyond moving from product

36:23led to brand led that you've taken in your career?

36:26Um, you know, I, I think that there's a, a myriad of things that, um, we could have done,

36:33uh, joining the organization that would have kept the lights on and moved us forward.

36:38But I think there was a pretty common understanding and, and, and to, uh, the leadership team's

36:43credit and Bill's credit, like you've got to reinvent yourself as a company over and

36:47over and over again.

36:48Microsoft is a different Microsoft than it was.

36:50Apple's a different Apple.

36:51NVIDIA is a different Apple.

36:52So even the best and brightest companies in the world have to continuously find ways.

36:55NVIDIA is a very different Apple.

36:58I think you meant NVIDIA is a different NVIDIA.

37:00Fair enough.

37:01That's what I meant.

37:02Yes.

37:03You're right.

37:03But yes, it's, um, I do think that the, you know, what we saw before the market saw it

37:10for us was just an opportunity in front of us to continuously reinvent ourselves.

37:14And, you know, one of the things I love about working, uh, within Bill's organization, it's

37:18just, he believes, he trusts, he lets you go.

37:21And so I do think that, um, the reason why they hire people is to come in and do new and

37:27exciting things, not just to keep the lights on.

37:29And so I felt like it was an inflection point.

37:31Um, and, you know, I do think that we are on this earth for a very short period of time.

37:36And, you know, one of the things that I've tried to make as my career has grown, maybe

37:40make a legacy for Colin, whatever it may be, is a re-invent, hopefully helping reinvent

37:45the B2B distinction, because I do think that that's got a stigma that is unnecessary and

37:50not required.

37:51And why not, you know, a few of us take a stab at changing it.

37:54So that's where the risk taking comes from.

37:57Yeah.

37:57I like that.

37:58And I tend to have the perspective that, um, prefixes get marketers and marketing in

38:04too much trouble.

38:05B2B, B2C, digital, this, that, the, it's all just fucking marketing, figure out what levers

38:11are going to work.

38:12Um, and, and the prefixes wind up creating a certain myopia that I've yet to see serve anyone.

38:21Um, all right.

38:23I got a last question for you as, as we come on time and, and, you know, arguably it's,

38:29it's its own week long conversation.

38:32Um, but, um, you've, you've been very explicit and talking very direct about how AI is rewriting,

38:41how marketing runs.

38:43Um, I'm wondering what you can share, um, with our audience generally, but in particular

38:48for, um, the CEOs and CFOs in the audience to understand what, what that rewriting means

38:55kind of from what to what, from your perspective, what's, what's changing fundamentally.

39:00I mean, everything's changing fundamentally.

39:03It's hard to, you know, what's not changing is, is the ultimate question.

39:06Probably, um, you know, um, I do think that what you've built Seth, and I think what exists

39:12today is this incredible network of CMOs, um, that I've only recently been welcomed into,

39:17but it's just floored with the brilliance that exists within it.

39:20Uh, Vinita Chai mentioned this the other day that just kind of floored me, which is a quote,

39:24I think he said, something to the effect of when AI does the work, uh, brand is the work,

39:29something to this analogy.

39:30I think that's a phenomenal takeaway that we should be, um, thinking about in the context

39:37of we can automate more and more now with AI, more than we've ever been able to do before.

39:41It's driving great efficiency and speed in ways that we candidly never saw possible.

39:45It's leveling the playing field of things that big companies used to have advantages

39:48in that do not.

39:50What has not changed, um, is the brand you build and the trust you build it and the creativity

39:55that surrounds it is still present, possible and highly differentiated.

40:01And so it's created more of an emphasis on the things that are, um, that still make the

40:05great companies great.

40:07And I think that's where we've tried to focus our energy, automate the things that are Monday

40:10and that suck the life out of us.

40:12Let's be honest, segmentation and tacking and taxonomy and market research in these things

40:18and pointing it towards things that drive highly differentiated brands.

40:22And that's where we have focused our time.

40:24We believe if we adopt it and address it now, it will, we will be part of writing the future.

40:29And instead of being relegated at the museums, if you will, and, uh, we still think that

40:33there's a human at the, at the driver's seat, if that makes sense.

40:36Well, if you're in America, apparently museums are starting to rewrite history.

40:40Um, so, so there's that.

40:42Are you going to go there, Seth?

40:44I just did.

40:45I'm sorry.

40:46Um, uh, uh, the unfathomable is suddenly, uh, fathomable.

40:52So, you know, I'm interested, uh, as you know, I love Vinit and it's Vinit Mayra for those

40:57listening and I'll drop, um, I'll drop in the show notes, um, uh, the conversation Vinit

41:02and I had on this show, um, some months ago, uh, I, I'm a brand person through and through.

41:08I'm a brand marketer.

41:09I began my career brand, brand, brand.

41:13Um, I worry, I, I, I both worry and don't know cause I probably don't understand enough

41:21to know if, if brand actually, and this is not true in every category, but I wonder in

41:26many, if brand, um, survives the machine era, which is to say, if we are bots marketing to

41:33bots, how do, how do we translate the emotional resonance and relevance of a brand, a good brand,

41:40to something functional that can be interpreted by a machine?

41:45Um, and can we, and what does that mean about brand?

41:49What does that mean about how brands are built?

41:52Um, how they're communicated?

41:54Uh, these are the questions that I don't know that they keep me up at night because I have

41:58the fortunate position of not actually having to do that work.

42:01Um, but I think about it a lot and for, for CMOs like, uh, you and, and those who make

42:07up our global community.

42:10Uh, I'm still a believer, my friend, uh, I'm still a believer.

42:13Um, I still think, I do think that when the machines automate the mundane, there are a few,

42:19there are less and less things that we can own and it is still one of them.

42:23Um, and it is still going to be the buying cycle doesn't change that much when there's still

42:29a human at the other end of it, at the end of the day, that mental availability, that

42:33passion, that trust, that emotion, trust is being an incredible, a critical word there.

42:37And I, you know, perhaps naively, um, but, uh, that's been the focus is, you know, if

42:42we can choose to own one thing, it should be what ServiceNow stands for and how we're

42:46highly differentiated.

42:47And if we can do that really well, I still remain pretty bullish on the company.

42:52No doubt.

42:52And, and I said, that was the last question, but you used a word that I also think a lot

42:58about, which is trust and kind of the end of trust back to kind of, you know, that,

43:03which was inside my comment about museums, rewriting history.

43:08How do you think about how to build trust in any brand in a world where, um, trust in

43:16institutions, uh, is, is at its lowest point and maybe ever.

43:22I think about trust a ton as it relates to the company and the brand.

43:27And what's unique about B2B, and I didn't mention this earlier, perhaps, um, uh, I regret

43:32it, which is what's really different about B2B is that careers are made or ruined by decisions

43:39that are made in large B2B certain journeys.

43:42Companies have, people have made careers by choosing ServiceNow and become CIOs, um, uh,

43:48as one reference.

43:49And there are many other examples, of course.

43:51Um, but when you're talking about multimillion dollar year long deal cycle type of transactions,

43:56trust becomes the, the factor in these considerations.

44:01And so how are we showing up with, um, all the ways that, um, we'll earn trust and be helpful

44:08literally as our content strategy is always be helpful.

44:10That is the whole content strategy.

44:12When you talk about making careers, um, that, that's pretty helpful.

44:16And it, it brings me to something that I've, I've probably shared 30 times and on this show,

44:23which is, you know, one of my favorite pieces of work of all time is that 1974 IBM mainframe

44:29ad that simply said, nobody ever got fired for buying IBM.

44:32Uh, and while it tied, you know, pretty directly into risk mitigation, um, not getting fired,

44:39pretty helpful.

44:40It's pretty darn good.

44:41It's pretty darn good.

44:43That's what we're looking for, right?

44:44I mean, that's ultimately what we're chasing.

44:46Cause if we have, um, large organizations that are trusting of service now or any brand

44:50that we're representing, uh, that's better than any great, uh, advertisement or great data

44:55sheet you might produce ever.

44:56Right.

44:59That is absolutely right.

45:01Carl Fleming.

45:02Thank you so much for being with us.

45:04Thanks for having me.

45:05This has been fun.

45:06Absolutely.

45:06And to our audience, thank you too, for being with us.

45:09And if you're listening, uh, on the pods or watching on YouTube, uh, thanks for hanging.

45:14Um, and please, uh, smash that subscribe button and give us a review because that is, if it's

45:20a good one, don't give us a review.

45:22If it's a bad one, ain't nobody needs that.

45:25Um, but give us a review if you've got a good one or a bad one, let's be honest, truth and

45:30truth and podcast producing, uh, because that helps other people find the show.

45:34Um, thanks.

45:36And we'll see you next time.

45:37Um,

45:37um,

45:38um,

45:39um,

45:40um,

45:40uh,

45:41um,

45:42um,

45:42uh,

45:43um,

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