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00:00hey welcome back to the motorcycles podcast this is where we talk about motorcycles and
00:03what makes them great topics on the show always change but the one thing that always remains
00:08is two wheels fun on this episode we are going to talk about harley davidson's pan america 1250
00:15that's a harley davidson adventure bike but before we do that we're going to make introductions we
00:20got adam laheed he's the only healthy one on this podcast at the moment we got jeff allen he's got
00:2711 broken ribs and some small holes in his lungs and you got me executive editor justin dawes and
00:33i'm getting over covid so uh we are gonna sound maybe a little bit off uh today but we're gonna
00:41give it our best go so uh as we said we're gonna talk about harley davidson pan america 1250 this
00:48is harley davidson's well we'll call it first with quotations around first uh adventure bike i guess
00:54the buell ulysses could be counted as harley davidson's first adventure bike and um we'll
01:02say early harley davidson's probably all were adventure bikes depending on you know where you
01:07rode them right totally so uh but this is those old hill climbers were adventure bikes oh yeah yeah
01:16man with the hands on the wheels the that the statue in front of the harley davidson museum with
01:20the hill climber is one of the raddest statues i've ever seen in my life yeah yeah that old
01:25stuff was pretty cool yeah it's a it's a since we don't have a if you're listening we have to
01:30describe it for you it's a hill climber he's going up a hill he's got a chain on the rear tire it's an
01:35old you know 20s harley and 30s harley and he's like hanging off the bike it's he's on the edge of
01:42control it's a really cool statue if you ever get to the museum you won't ever forget it for sure
01:47you can't miss it can't miss it it's beautiful so um this first uh adventure bike comes in three
01:55variants the special which is the we'll say the normal adventure motorcycle uh an st which is
02:02street focused and a cvo touring model um and this is the first model to use harley davidson's new uh
02:10revolution max 1250 engine so we'll talk a little bit about that as as well but let's let's get
02:17into the details of of the uh the pan america so i say and i think probably both of you agree with
02:26me that this is very much a real adventure motorcycle this isn't some half-baked attempt to
02:30take something harley davidson already had and turn it into an adventure motorcycle it's not like a
02:35sportster with some long suspension on it or something like that no you guys agree yeah yeah
02:40yeah no it's yeah real adventure bike yeah the whole thing was ground up yeah ground up ground
02:46up build which we'll talk about here um it does have some harley davidson styling uh it is polarizing
02:53in its look i like it yeah i like that it looks like a harley and i like that it doesn't look like
03:00other adventure bikes yeah yeah i think that's neat too i agree yeah i would say that it looks much
03:06better in person than it does on a page on a screen when you get around it it the proportions
03:12make sense but sometimes in photos it's hard to find a good angle on the bike um well plus we had
03:19gotten used to what adventure bikes look like yeah yeah pointy except in you know that that kind of
03:26thing and this is this is uh you know it's got that big long wide or i should say wide headlight
03:32that's kind of squished down it's sort of like a uh a smaller version of a road glide you know
03:39yeah yeah very much like you know so um it's got all the tech that a uh you would expect out of an
03:47adventure bike you've got lean sensitive traction control and abs got uh drag torque control which is
03:53like uh using the the throttle and the ignition to act as a slipper clutch uh when it when the slipper
04:00clutch doesn't work anymore because the roads are so slick or the gravel so slick or whatever
04:04so it keeps the rear end from locking up it's got wheelie control it's got combined braking
04:09and it was the first to have adaptive ride height it was the first bike to lower itself when you
04:14when you stopped which to me still like boggles my mind that um someone hadn't thought of it first
04:22and they were the first yeah in in the adventure category they were like the innovators yeah that's
04:27yeah like it just blows me it's like duh like you know all these bikes are have such tall seat heights
04:34as adventure bikes because you need the ground clearance you need the suspension and this makes
04:38it you know easier to get it on and off of yeah and there's there's isn't just when you stop right
04:44it's when you get under a certain mile per hour under a certain speed it'll come down yeah and you can
04:49you can lock it out you can change the parameters a little bit to how it how it activates
04:55well i'm just saying like if you were in something you know tricky you lowers the seat height so you
05:01can touch like if say for instance you're in sand and you need to dab you're you're probably going
05:07slow enough that that it's settled down the seat is settled down yeah very much so more and you don't
05:13you don't notice it when it does it either that's the interesting part is you really don't feel the
05:18change in the bike's attitude at all which is pretty cool so and then once you get going again
05:24would you crest a certain speed i can't remember what it is 25 30 miles an hour something like that
05:30it raises back up automatically yeah so really cool uh really cool thing so um it runs kind of adventure
05:38normal wheel sizes 1917 on the special on the cbo and then 17 inch wheels on the st which is the
05:46the street focused one uh they just you know they just added to the lineup so um i don't know it's
05:52very much a real adventure motorcycle uh i think it's got everything that you would want minus maybe
05:59adaptive cruise control and all the radar stuff but i i'm assuming that the next iteration of the bike
06:05will have all that stuff because yeah and plus it has all the all the available accessories you would
06:12want for your adventure bike soft cases hard cases you know skid plate hand guards all that stuff it's
06:18got high seats low seat you know all that stuff so i guess now they have a a single a one-piece seat
06:25option so yep that'd be cool you know all over all around it's it's a very very much uh um adventure
06:35motorcycle and it's got an all-new engine in it which is um the revolution max 1250
06:41uh they also have revolution max 975 975 in the nightster um so the 1250 is used in uh the panamerica and
06:54in the sportster um but the little bit different tune in both the bikes uh in the panamerica makes
07:01150 horsepower at 95 pound feet of torque that's those are claimed numbers from marley davidson
07:07um it's a dual overhead liquid cooled four valve 60 degree v-twin with vvt on both the intake and
07:16exhaust cams um which is is pretty cool as well um i think the sportster only gets it on
07:24the intake if i remember right or maybe that's the nightster maybe the 975 only has it on
07:30the motor's got all of the features you would expect on a on a premium adventure bike it really
07:38does um and it's got some stuff that other ones don't um it's got a hydraulic valve uh lash
07:44adjustment just like on all their their big big twins and stuff so there's no valve clearance checks
07:50there it's always got the right correct correct clearance so um overall i really really like that
07:57engine what about you he do you like that engine uh yeah yeah it's okay for sure you know it's nice
08:03it's got you know revs kind of fast and has that signature harley davidson you know character and
08:09exhaust note which is neat but you know in a more modern liquid cooled you know power plant which is
08:16cool you know i think harley davidson did a okay job of you know appeasing the harley davidson purist but
08:22finally giving you know the the modern motorcycle rider you know some contemporary performance
08:29yeah i would say you know down low it definitely has the the harley-ish um feel to it or sound and
08:35then when you rev it out it becomes it feels very european to me yeah it feels like a ktm lc4 it um you
08:45know or lc8 i should say it just feels really really sporty and it revs and it feels modern it feels
08:53wholly modern when you're on the gas mm-hmm yeah yeah good on good on harley davidson for having
09:00the huevos to make the investment for this thing that's that was a that was a big i guess you would
09:09say gamble but you know that they sort of had to make but yeah none of them for doing such a good job
09:15yeah they definitely had to make they had to modernize harley's uh offerings a bit you know so
09:23sportster pan america nightster all those things add to that um definitely not not for the traditional
09:33harley owner except that they are because it was a very successful launch of that bike it was actually
09:40the best-selling adventure motorcycle for a few months when it first came out which is saying a
09:45lot because yes bmw's gs is a sales machine like bmw doesn't even have to have a full lineup they just
09:55had the gs they would still do better than some other manufacturers yeah so um that did really really well
10:05um and people you know people moved from other they had conquest sales they had people that bought
10:13from outside of um harley davidson but then they also had the harley davidson faithful buying the
10:20bikes too they were like oh man i i own a gs along with my road glide now i can have a road glide and i
10:26can have a panamerican so it makes a lot of sense to uh for harley davidson do it because they realize
10:32that there are a lot of owners that own multiple bikes and if they have a harley they may buy
10:38a harley in other segments yeah and probably looking to bring in a even just slightly younger buyer
10:47yeah yeah very much yeah or something a little more sporty a little more utilitarian you know
10:53yeah exactly so let's talk about like um riding impressions and whether we like it or not let's
11:02let's start off with adam let's let's give let's hear your feelings on the pan america
11:07yeah i think it's it's it's okay for a harley davidson adventure bike you know it's
11:12you know not my favorite adventure bike but you know for harley davidson's first shot at it you
11:17know it's an okay offering okay about you jeff i i guess i have a little bit stronger feelings
11:25than why you know i'm i'm like what's not to like i i think it's i think it's a really nice adventure
11:30bike i mean and adventure bikes are they can be so different right you have touring adventure you have
11:35like serious off-road adventure but i i think this thing it i think it does both fairly well
11:46to me it's it's as it's as if a bmw like you're comparing it to bmw so it's as if the bmw and the
11:52ktm you know got together and had a baby in some ways it reminds me of the ktm in some ways it reminds
11:58me of the bmw which i don't know this but i would think that that would be a target for harley
12:04you know yeah i mean that's the that's the hard part for harley is like where do they position
12:09this and what do they target um so you know yeah i think i appreciate the rider aids that it has i have
12:17i i uh like i said i like the styling as far as riding it i like it in the in the sitting position
12:26standing position it's fairly narrow and i wear usually i wear knee braces when i ride adventure
12:32bikes because you know there's always off-road options and uh some bikes you really notice the
12:39width with the knee braces and uh less so i think on the pan america yeah i agree uh it's it's a
12:46actually a very slim feeling bike because of that kind of traditional shaped tank right and so this big
12:54boxy thing that a lot of adventure bikes covered in plastic yeah yeah and and so that right there
13:01makes it feel slim and i do the same thing i wear knee braces most of the time when i'm riding an
13:05adventure motorcycle and um it definitely that helps a lot it's got good ergonomics um it's got some
13:14options where you can get risers for the handlebars and a few other things and so um but overall it's very
13:21good the way it is um and i really like it's easy to toss around like it's a big motorcycle it's a
13:30big bore adb but um the handlebar width and shape and the slimness of the tank really allows you to like
13:38throw your knee into the tank and really move the bike around really easily um and sometimes it feels a
13:44little bit lighter um that is it doesn't feel as massive as some of the other bikes like a gs
13:51well when it came out it was against the gs 1250 and it felt a lot smaller than the gs 1250.
13:59the uh the engine i think is really really nice um it puts power to the ground really well and that
14:05lets it slide around power you know power line roads and gravel roads like you can really slide the
14:11bike really nice as a really nice balance um and being able to really control that rear tire um so
14:18overall i think it was a really good first effort and it was one of my favorite bikes when it came out
14:23in in 2021 um you know everyone's kind of moved on since 2021 so um you know the the gs 1300
14:35r 1300 gs multi strata tiger um and even the ktm have all got updates since that and have upped the
14:43game a little bit so i think it's time for um for harley-davidson to respond and bring bring the level
14:51up a little bit more on their bike uh i think um you know the semi-active suspension is pretty nice
14:58but i do think it maybe needs a little more suspension travel it's got seven and a half inches on
15:02both ends um and since you have that adaptive ride height why not just make it longer travel
15:09because you can lower the bike anyways instead of lowering the bike an inch and a half or whatever
15:13it is let the bike lower two and a half inches or something you know and and and give us that extra
15:18travel and ground clearance when we need it as an adventure bike um and then it can still lower
15:24itself down when you need it but overall i think it's a i think it's a great adv bike and if you're
15:32shopping for adv bikes you should absolutely go check one out i i think um it is very much a um
15:41an alternative to all the all the other big adventure motorcycles that we we talk about here
15:46yeah a certain unique being that it's you know it's such a uh a new motorcycle but it it also has
15:55a huge dealer network you know yep yeah for sure it doesn't do huge dealer network and i will say like
16:02the first um couple of years they did have to work out a few kinks right um they had some charging and
16:09battery issues um which with 2024 on is supposedly solved um a lot of people just put lithium batteries
16:18in their bike and it helped the problem with like low battery voltage after it sat for a while so like
16:23parasitic draw from all the electronics um made it like hard starting or screwed up the display there's
16:30a few problems so um but uh as of now it seems all those are are all those are are sorted and so
16:39that's that's nice so but um yeah overall i think it was a i think it's a great great bike um for
16:48what it is 20 grand for the the special they don't really have the base model anymore um so starts at
16:5520 grand but obviously it goes up from there if you change the buildings and it's not cheap no it's not
17:00cheap not cheap but but it's not um it's not out of hand in the the big adventure bike no segment
17:09right i remember when it when it came out it also there was priced below i think below the bmw and
17:16just slightly above the kkm yeah it was kind of in the middle there yeah so obviously inflation is is
17:23driven up prices a little bit unaffected by tariffs yeah yeah well there are i'm sure not all the parts
17:31on that thing are american made but um i knew they i know they do use a lot of suppliers nearby
17:37uh milwaukee so um you know anyway um i have a funny story about this bike um and that we actually
17:49had an effect before the bike came out on the design of this motorcycle so um yeah so in 2018 they
18:01teased this bike they put out this video and it showed it in the prototype testing and and so i went
18:09frame by frame for the video and like basically pointed out okay the engine looks like it's you know
18:14you know this many degrees and it looks like this and it looks like it's got this suspension
18:19this type of wheel this you know bubble and i just went through and kind of like
18:23made my predictions on what what the pan america will be and i i wrote my article that looks heavy
18:28um and that if uh if it came in my article i wrote if if this thing weighs less than 550 pounds i will buy
18:38all of the harley davidson engineering and design staff pizza and beer and um so then we come around
18:44to 2021 it's the press launch they have their powerpoint presentation going and the screen comes
18:51up and it says dry weight for this is for the base model not the special but there was a base model
18:56at that time um and it said 535 pounds does uos pizza and beer right in the presentation right in the
19:05harley guy yeah in the presentation for the press launch and so i was like oh geez so we stuck to it
19:12and we bought pizza and beer for like 400 people in milwaukee and had a pizza party um i stuck i stuck
19:20stuck to my my challenge and we we we paid up it was it cost us like 15 grand for pizza and beer but
19:27did you get to throw that on the expense account we threw an expense account it did not come out of
19:31my own pocket but uh i was dissuaded from making challenges like that in the future
19:38we got you this time but not yeah yeah yeah we'll cover this one but not next time
19:43so but it was cool like they they they took the the that article and printed it out the the lead
19:50of the the project printed out for every engineer and went to everyone's desk and put it on their
19:56desk and they all pinned it up in their cubicle and every one of them worked on removing weight
20:01from whatever they were working on in order to get it less than 550 because before it was going to be
20:07more so it was cool we had an effect on on the bike um that's media doing its job yeah yeah helping to
20:16improve the product yeah we improved the product before it even came out so that was a pretty pretty
20:22fun story and then we printed out like a little like magazine with all our articles about the bike
20:26and yeah it was it was really fun it was good to meet all the people that did it and they were all like
20:30yeah thanks for doing that you know like one guy was telling me about like the
20:34uh the gear on the back of the clutch basket for the starter like it was a solid piece of
20:40of aluminum and then he went through and like removed all this weight and made it look like uh
20:45you know uh what do you call it like grandma's doily for you know uh like you know he removed all
20:52this material and everyone did that holes in it yep added more like the world uh editor of dirt bike
21:00editor ron greyer he was used to say he put he put holes in everything back in the day he would
21:05always say there's nothing lighter than a hole this is true yeah i had more lightness in the way of lotus
21:12so um anyway i think um you know that was that's a fun story so um having us all ridden the bike and we
21:21all seem to like it in in some form what would you like to see from harley davidson to make this bike
21:28better because obviously it's time for it let's let's give them a challenge again we're not going
21:32to buy them pizza and beer but let's give them a challenge to improve the this bike and maybe
21:38they'll listen to us so jeff what do you what do you want to see out of the well i could see them
21:44expanding the lineup like they do with you know all of their other models you know different options
21:49different you know accessories uh like for instance a version with an 1821 so you could have you know
21:58additional tire choices um that'd be neat you know that kind of that sort of thing maybe even like a real
22:07uh i don't know if stripped down is the right word but a stripped down version that's very off-road
22:13you know and even like like ktm maybe even a uh uh a version with the smaller motor with the with the max
22:24975 yeah sort of a mid if that if you could say that a mid-size adventure bike
22:33you know maybe that would be maybe that would be the thing with the 975 and then in the 1821
22:38you know sort of a that'd be cool lighter bike yeah adventure bike yeah yep that's a really cool
22:47idea adam about you yeah i think what jeff just said is a great idea you know maybe a slim down and
22:54i mean it's going to be a harley davidson so it's never going to be like tenary slim but just a slim
23:00down with another pizza party you know i think a slim down 975 you know middleweight plus size
23:08adventure bike would be cool that'd be a cool variation you know the something with it it's
23:14going to be hard to do the 21 inch 18 inch wheel combo with that chassis configuration i'm sure but
23:20that would be cool you know i know they're making that st the 17 inch variation which is cool you know
23:26even like uh a more like not hardcore sport like road sport but yeah like it did almost an adventure
23:34sport like real precisely made adventure sport that would be a cool variation you know kind of like
23:41they could go as wild as having you know ducati pike's peak you know pike's peak just super high
23:47end like just road sport to the max like honestly that would be a good little niche for harley davidson
23:53to to own that you know especially with like their their their competition street legal competition
23:59baggers like they have they have that technology they have those components obviously it's in touring
24:05uh configuration but you know they'd be cool to you know kind of narrowing on that segment and
24:10in theory they could potentially own that segment yeah i mean they they race the hooligan class with
24:16the pan america right so excuse me so it was a flat track uh uh adventure that too but like i really
24:26like he's idea of like an an st we'll call it str right yeah str yep yep perfect you know and it's
24:35just done to the to the max and it's a special model that you know is more expensive and has a high
24:41margin for harley but really ups that that's that thing to where you would buy one and go take it to a
24:48track day and not have to change anything i think that'd be really fun um and then of course i'd like
24:54go ahead oh they could do it boutique boutique style like they do with their that their that
25:01that harley davidson rr a hundred thousand dollar bagger like they could just make a limited run of
25:07those really high-end bikes lots of carbon fiber you know some titanium things here and there and
25:12yeah huge huge margins limited edition stamp the tank yeah they that would be cool it'd be super sick
25:19it was i think that would that would be killer but i'd also like to see a off-road arm model like
25:24jeff's talking about and and you are you know lighter 21 and 18 longer travel um you know it may not be
25:34it may not be what harley people are looking for but people outside of harley may step into the
25:41brand for something like that you know i think a 975 engine would be suitable um you don't need a ton of
25:47power um for something that's more off-road focused you know like a hundred horsepower is
25:53plenty for an offer it's like for super off-roady adventure motorcycle and you just make a longer
26:00travel and slim it up a little bit more and um yeah i think it'd be killer you might catch the eye of
26:07a ktm uh buyer you really could you know you really might so um i think we're all especially if they
26:14especially if they lean into like the american manufacturing american manufacturing you know
26:20like sometimes they lean into that sometimes they don't but if they you know could make a bigger point
26:25of that especially in today's you know american-centric society or more american-centric society that would
26:33be that'd be cool yeah very much so so um yeah i think we're all kind of aligned on what we'd like
26:40to see so harley if you're listening do it we may buy you pizza yeah defense you make an str all right
26:50maybe we'll buy you pizza an off-road rr i'll bust out the credit card um so uh anything else you guys
27:00want to add on on the pan america before we we wrap this thing up honestly you guys got me excited just
27:07those two variations that would be really cool it would be cool i'm happy to see them break out of
27:13the mold and you know and do something and have it work out well for them you know yeah they've tried
27:19some stuff some of it seems sometimes it's it has seemed uh sort of uh not fully on board i guess is what
27:32i'm not fully committed fully realized yeah yeah i think this bike though like i think it really does
27:39show that um you know harley davidson proved they can build other things besides chromed out cruisers
27:47and big baggers like you know it's a huge company with a huge engineering know-how and it can do what it
27:54wants um but it also likes to stick to what's safe sometimes and um i think the stepping out to the
28:02adventure bike was not a fully safe move for them and but it gave them the ability to to show off their
28:10technical know-how and their engineering prowess and they did it i mean it was it was picked by you know
28:17some of us as the best adventure bike for 2021 um because it it did trounce a lot of the the current
28:26machines on the market so um you know while it's still harley it's a real adv it's competitive in the
28:33class um but it's probably time for a refresh um which i'm sure we'll see soon and then um i think
28:41the last thing i'll say about it is don't knock it until you try it because it's actually really
28:47really good yeah yep so yeah that's gonna be it for us yep that's gonna be it for us we're uh we're
28:54big fans of pan america thanks for listening we appreciate the support hit that like button
29:00um subscribe if you haven't um and put your comments down below let us know what you think
29:05about the pan america um if you think it's a real adventure bike and what would you like to see harley
29:11uh change for the next uh the next update for that motorcycle thanks for listening we'll see you
29:18on the next episode
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