- 5 months ago
Sunderland's loss to Burnley and Huddersfield Town preview with Ian Murtagh
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00:00Hello, welcome to the Raw podcast brought to you by the Sunland Echo. My name is James
00:23Copley and today I'm joined by my former university lecturer and all-round North East
00:28sports journalism legend, Ian Murtart. How's that for an introduction, Ian? I'm glad I gave you that
00:35to that, James. How's things all right? Everything's good, everything is good, thank you very much.
00:43Good stuff. Well, we'll move straight on to the Burnley game, Ian. I thought it was
00:46a disappointing performance, particularly in the second half. I found it funny in a sense that
00:54we go back to the West Ham game and Sunland were very good against West Ham, particularly
00:58in the first half. Sorry, particularly in the second half. But in the first half, it could
01:04have feasibly been two or three, one to West Ham. They weren't clinical. And then the second
01:08half, Sunland really sort of upped their game. I actually thought it was a similar story,
01:11but in reverse against Burnley, there was a couple of chances for Eliza Mayenda, which
01:15he really needs to be doing better with. And Talby, who was perhaps a little bit unlucky
01:19not to find the target. You don't take those. And then in the second half, Burnley up the
01:23game, Sunland's levels drop, and all of a sudden, it's 2-0. And it's a reminder, isn't
01:28it, that the Premier League is so clinical?
01:30Yeah, I mean, you've touched on a lot of points I'm going to make there, James. The big question
01:35is, has Sunland, is it just a case of the balloon birthing, or has momentum stalled? Let's
01:43not forget, Sunland went into that game on the back of three of the greatest wins, well, in
01:50their modern history. That's fact. I didn't think a win was a gimme. I thought all three
01:58results were possible. I would have said the least likely result was a Sunland defeat, simply
02:06because of the feel-good factor engulfing the club, the confidence injection that the players
02:12will have had. So, yes, it is very, very disappointing result. Let's make no mistake about it.
02:18And I thought Sunland could quite possibly get nine points in the first three games now.
02:26Is that Mertes optimism, Val, going through the roof? A new reality check. But, yeah, it
02:33was a disappointing result. No question about it.
02:37And I think as well, Ian, Libris loves consistency. He talks a lot about connections all over the
02:45fields, doesn't he? But in the two games, Sunland have actually had three different centre-back
02:49pairings, obviously through no fault of their own. But it's been a bit of a nightmare in
02:53a sense, obviously, that you had the injury to seal in the first game. But that sort of
02:59turned out well, didn't it? Because Alderote came on and changed the game. But then you've
03:03got a different centre-back pair and starting against Burnley, Alderote and Ballard. Ballard,
03:08who was a defender, I think we all rate really highly, would probably be playing in the Premier
03:12League before now, had he not had his injuries for Sunland. Suddenly he gets that groin injury
03:17and Sunland never really recovered after that, in my opinion.
03:21Well, that's right. I mean, last week, you know, people were wondering why have Sunland brought
03:27yet another centre-half, although Mucky Ailey is a utility player. I think we've got to
03:34accept that there is a big question mark, fuelled by what happened on Saturday, about Ballard's
03:41overall fitness. Everyone would love a fully fit Ballard to play 30 to 30 Premier League
03:48games this season. But it might not happen, we're still awaiting news on the groin injury,
03:53which forced him off so early on at Turf Moor. But you're right, you're right. It's not ideal
04:01to have had, after two games, so many centre-defensive partnerships. Because I would guess, out of
04:08every combination in the side, the one the Brees would want to see settled is, to use an old
04:18fashion, the numbers five and six are the two centre-halves.
04:21Yeah, absolutely. And I don't think it's necessarily any slight on Jansen Sealt either.
04:28You know, he obviously came to the club a couple of seasons ago now. He broke into the
04:33team, actually, as a right-back. He came very young. I think he only played, was it 16 times
04:39his first season, as I say, a lot of those games at full-back. And then he got a really,
04:44really bad injury. He came back towards the end of last season. I think he just got one appearance
04:47off the bench. He's still very young. I actually quite like him in terms of his physical attributes.
04:52I think, you know, I think he passes the ball quite well. But he just lacks that real experience,
04:58doesn't he? And it is, when you think about it, and you think about his career journey,
05:03it's a big ask for him to be playing Premier League football at the moment.
05:06Yeah. Can I use Jansen Sealt to emphasise a wider point?
05:13Of course you can.
05:13Yeah. I've heard on podcasts, message boards, social media, etc. He, and Sunderland largely,
05:22didn't do a lot wrong on Saturday. Now, didn't do a lot wrong is a term I heard from
05:29Kieran McKenna in the first half of last season. Didn't do a lot wrong is what Rob Edwards used to say,
05:36looking back on Luton's relegation. Didn't do a lot wrong is not good enough for the Premier League.
05:44The Premier League is a brutal environment, but it's also an elite environment. You don't stay up
05:50by not doing a lot wrong. You stay up by heroic deeds, by technical excellence, by ruthless decisions,
06:00by a manager. Now, going back to Jansen Sealt, and this sounds incredibly harsh, and it's not meant to be.
06:09To be a good championship player, you've got to be a very, very good footballer. I suspect that
06:17that's where his natural environment will be. Sunderland need elite performances, the outstanding
06:24displays, and the courage and abundance. Not doing a lot wrong will not suffice.
06:30I would actually challenge that not-doing-a-lot-wrong statement as well, Ian, because I think he was
06:38probably at fault for the first goal. You know, we're not here to slate that, and of course we're
06:42not, and we are describing his career trajectory and perhaps why he's not a Premier League centre-back
06:48at the moment. But I would argue for the first goal, he was at fault.
06:52That's what I said.
06:54You have to call a spade a spade.
06:55I didn't say he didn't do anything, Rob.
06:57No, that's true. That's very true. The devil's no detail.
07:01People can play magnificently for 89 and 90 minutes and make one mistake.
07:08Indeed. But obviously, you want to be going to Burnley when you're Sunderland, and you want to win
07:14because they're a relegation rival. They've come up with you. It's, you know, an early point in the
07:19season. It would have been great to continue that momentum, that feeling from the West Ham game.
07:23But I don't feel like this is terminal, Ian. I feel like Nabris will know what to do.
07:29There's plenty of opportunities.
07:31It's obviously hugely disappointing. Now, I was really disappointed with that performance in the
07:35second half. It did feel flat.
07:36Sunderland sort of looked like they ran out of ideas a little bit, obviously got hit
07:41on the break. But I do feel that there's enough in this squad to potentially stay up with the
07:49transfer market still open as well for another, what, six days?
07:51Yeah, listen, I think the initial point you made was spot on. It was very similar to West Ham
08:00in that the first goal ultimately proved so crucial and the team that conceded it never looked like
08:07coming back after conceding that first goal. What we've got, we've got more material to throw into this
08:13this algorithm. Imagine if that West Ham game hadn't taken place and this 2-0 defeat on Saturday was the
08:23first game of the season. Let's just think about what our conclusion, what conclusions we'd have drawn.
08:30A lot of people across the country, most people across the country would have said,
08:34Sunderland are going straight back down. Even some Sunderland fans would have thought that. But what it
08:43has done is made everyone realise just how hard it is to pick up away points in the Premier League.
08:51I mean, let's get this straight. People will say, if you can't pick up a point at Burnley, who I don't
08:56think won a Turf Mooran two seasons ago until December, where can you pick up points? Now let's compare
09:03that to Sunderland fans mood on Friday or those heading to Lancashire on Saturday morning.
09:13There was still that feel-good factor and that feel-good factor is still there, but that air of
09:17confidence that lasted the full week after the tremendous occasion, the tremendous performance against
09:25West Ham. What we've got to do, of course, is throw the two of those together and try and make sense of it.
09:32Now, the easiest conclusion, and it's probably fairly accurate, is that if Sunderland ought to stay up or
09:40indeed flourish in the top flight, the stadium light form is going to determine that.
09:46We would have said that before the season started. But again, I do think it goes back to what you were
09:57saying about conceiving the first goal. There's been a lot of criticism about Sunderland's measured football
10:05meant more as a negative than a positive, i.e. too pedestrian, too predictable, just too safe.
10:14And Sunderland played largely in front of Burnley. Admittedly, Burnley had a low block, especially in the
10:24second half. What I think we all were delighted to see in the West Ham game was just how much pace is in
10:32that Sunderland side. I mean the three forwards were far too quick for the Hammers and that ultimately
10:40told. Now it's very, very difficult to use pace when all you're attacking is space until you run into that
10:48cloud and blue wall. And that's what they did. So there's two alternatives. Do Sunderland defend deeply,
10:58concede possession, which is very, very difficult against the side like Burnley, and then try and
11:03spring attacks? Or do they try and introduce a little bit of guile into the side faced with that wall?
11:11You know, Le Fay in central midfield maybe is a future option because he's certainly got it.
11:18I understand Xhaki didn't have one of his better games, but he's a master of the forward pass as a
11:23midfielder. So yes, there are a lot of lessons to learn, but I think the main one is don't concede first.
11:32Yeah, indeed. It is interesting that juxtaposition you mentioned of, you know, Sunderland being really,
11:40really good on the break, but when a team has the ball, they do struggle to break them down and it
11:44does go slow. It does go pedestrian. What's interesting to me and Ian, and I would like to
11:50to get your thoughts on this, have Burnley sort of provided the blueprint of how to play against
11:54Sunderland? I would say probably yes, but will other teams in the Premier League follow that?
11:59Because to me, there's only really Burnley and maybe it's Leeds at the stadium of light that would
12:04allow Sunderland to have quite a lot of the ball. I feel like the onus is going to be on every other team
12:10in the Premier League to come and do a number on Sunderland. However, as the season goes on,
12:15points start to become a premium, managers are fighting to keep the jobs. They might look at that
12:20Burnley game and they might change the way to play against Sunderland altogether.
12:24There are many ways to skin a cat and there's many ways to beat a black cat.
12:31There are so many outstanding teams in the Premier League that I would suggest to you that, you know,
12:38the teams at the top of the table will look at Sunderland and that they'll say we can beat them by
12:45being better than by, let's be brutal, outclassing them, outplaying them. And that will be the case
12:51in certain games, you know, as was the case for Leeds at the Emirates Stadium on the Saturday evening.
12:57But yes, I think you've certainly got half a point there. You know, Sunderland won against West Ham,
13:06as I said, because instead of building attacks, they sprung attacks. Now, what they did, they did the
13:12opposite after conceding on Saturday, they tried to build attacks and they couldn't. And yes, you wanted
13:20maybe string attacks and exploit the pace you have on your own side, but Burnley didn't let Sunderland
13:26do that. You know, you've got to master a lot of odds. Pace is one, but as I mentioned,
13:34Guile being able to split open in defence is another. And yeah, the next time they play away from home
13:42probably won't be a game like that. No two games are alike after all. But Sunderland, they just have to
13:48learn to be very good at a lot of things.
13:53Yes, that'll be the message from Labrice on the, you just need to be better at everything against
13:58Brentford.
13:58Well, I mean, yes. And let's be fair, I think, within five minutes of his press conference,
14:05after West Ham started, I think he actually said that. We have to be less than we have to improve.
14:11I think that is his mantra. You know, you put to bed the last game and you keep improving.
14:16It's interesting, isn't it, Ian, how narratives shift from week to week. Obviously, we're well
14:23aware of that. You've been doing this job a long, long time. We were all delighted to beat West Ham
14:273-0 at the Stadium of Light. It was definitely a big result, a cathartic result. But then they go
14:33and get beaten 5-1 or 5-0 by Chelsea. It's great. Graham Potter's under pressure. Now, suddenly,
14:40everyone's saying, well, West Ham are no good, despite them having been in the Premier League
14:43since, I think, 2011, 2012 season, something like that. It's just funny, isn't it, how the
14:48sands shift from week to week to week?
14:50Absolutely. I mean, did the Friday night debacle from West Ham perspective against Chelsea, did that
15:02ever so slightly tarnish the 3-0 win last week? Because let's face it, we were all saying West
15:10Ham weren't very good. But in the back of your mind, you wondered, well, was that the case of
15:16some of them not making them very good? But I think we now know that West Ham side,
15:22at this stage, is not very good and will be struggling this season.
15:27Yeah, absolutely. We'll move on to the Huddersfield Town game, obviously coming tomorrow in the Carabao Cup.
15:33I think Southern are going to field a fairly strong side for this season. You know, we could list off
15:38some players that are in need of minutes. Dan Neill, Patrick Roberts. Patrick Roberts, who I actually
15:41thought did quite well when he came on against Burnley. You know, there's a chance we'll see
15:46new players, Arthur Masawaku, the lad from PSG as well. So it's an interesting fixture.
15:52And I think Sunderland haven't taken the Cups very seriously over the past couple of seasons.
15:58But this is one, given the level of the side we're going to be able to field, I would hope
16:05that they'll have it within them to dispatch League One opposition. I know it's never that
16:08simple in the Carabao Cup, but I'd like to see a lot of these players stake their claim, essentially.
16:14Listen, I think what's going to be fascinating is at quarter to seven when the team sheets come out.
16:23I don't think any of us really have a clue. Now, I think the simple conclusion we're drawing,
16:29or our simple assumption rather, is that lads like Dan Neill, as you mentioned, Patrick Roberts
16:35will be given the chance to play. What we don't know is just how much Reggie Labrie wants a cup run.
16:43You know, a lot of Premier League newcomers just say, this is a distraction. And of course, managers
16:54will never admit they want to crash out, but they're relieved when they do. We don't really know the case
17:01here. Now, I think a lot of Sunderland fans want a cup run this year because they're looking at the squad
17:08and they think, well, the squad is quite healthy, it's quite strong. There are more or less two players
17:16for each position. Therefore, the player who is currently shadowing the starting line of players
17:23will play this week. But I don't think it's quite as simple as that. I think there's a few
17:30factors which Reggie Labrie will look at. I do, I do think that Patterson will play,
17:37but what will he do at central defence? Will he give an audition to the two centre-halves who will play
17:48against Brentford? Now, that's assuming Dan Ballard is out for a little while. Certainly,
17:54even if Dan Ballard's injury proves nothing serious, I can't see him playing. Then you're looking at the
18:01midfield. Well, it's still an embryonic midfield. I think it's fairly safe to say Le Fay will start the
18:06game. But at the back, you know, will Rinaldo move into central defence to play alongside
18:17Acetite and, I pronounced that correctly, didn't I? Or in midfield, you know, will Patrick Roberts come in
18:24or will he give Edengre a chance? Then again, who will start? Do you play Gui or Isidore through the
18:33middle? Do you play both of them or do you give Mayenda the chance against lesser opposition to
18:44gain redemption? I think that's a fair enough expression after a dreadful miss against Bernie.
18:53Mayenda, I think, is the most fascinating individual in this Sunderland team despite
18:58all the arrivals in the summer. I stuck him in my fantasy team. He's raw, but I noticed something
19:07about him last season. The goal at Wembley. What he's learning to do and what a lot of strikers do is
19:17don't try and place the ball. Look at the target, smash it, i.e. the goal against the goal against Sheffield United.
19:25He didn't try and find the ball across the keeper. He wanted it as hard he can and I saw that as a positive.
19:34What Mayenda doesn't do is sniff chances. That is what all 15 plus goals the season
19:44predators do. He is a very good player, but that was a bad miss. If you look, I think it was yesterday,
19:51Fulham against Man United, the way that Smith Rowe attacked the ball to score. It was a
19:59very similar chance. I know that it's that height, isn't it, when it's just a little bit above the
20:04comfort zone. He had to adjust his body, which he didn't do very well. So I know I'm going off on
20:09tangent here, but the jury's out on whether Mayenda is a player to score the goals for Sunderland to
20:20prosper this season. I'm still marginally on his side saying yes, but I want to see, I want to see more
20:27chances and I, for one, certainly wouldn't complain if he was leading the line again tomorrow night.
20:32I don't think it will happen though. It's an interesting question, isn't it, because I think
20:36everybody rates Mayenda and he's got that raw potential, raw talent. He is 20 years old. Top
20:43strikers do miss chances, don't they? And I remember last season, obviously, he came in for some stick.
20:48He missed against Blackbird Rovers on Boxing Day, missed against Stoke City a couple of days
20:52later, which took one point from those two games, arguably. Should have taken six really,
20:58but we didn't. However, it's a pertinent point that you make. He's definitely going to be one
21:03for the future. He's definitely going to be a player. You can see that, can't you? There's no
21:07doubt about it. But whilst I think he's going to contribute and he's going to be good for
21:11Sunderland this season, is he enough? Is he what Sunderland needs? Is he what is going to keep
21:17Sunderland in the division? Now you throw into that Wilson Isidore and Mark Guiu, will that be
21:22enough? Should Sunderland be looking for another either wide forward or another striker? Because
21:27defensively, I think Sunderland are going to be fairly competent this season, but it's scoring goals,
21:32isn't it, that will keep you up? That's right. You say good, good strikers, miss chances,
21:38good strikers, sniff chances as well. Now, everyone, I was looking at the Tolby chance in the first half
21:46of a turf mower and he did, he did well, but there was no other option than to try and chip the ball
21:55over and across Dubravka. Now, just imagine if when he'd got possession, I think it was super ball from
22:03Modinga, wasn't it, that to his right he heard the unmistakable sound of Mayemda running at speed into
22:10the box shouting, cross it? Do you know the point I'm making? And I looked at that and my end there
22:16wasn't up with play. And it, you know, wouldn't it have been great if Talby had simply squared the ball
22:24to a teammate who had tapped home? So that's that point. And I've forgotten what your question was,
22:31I'm labbing on so much, James. I think that, well, yeah, it was a long-winded question for me, but
22:37should Sunderland look to find some more goals from somewhere before the transfer window shuts?
22:43I think it's a really, really, really interesting question just to see what they do with that,
22:48because obviously they brought the lad in from Chelsea. I have Isidore and Mayemda,
22:52you know, do we need just that little bit more? Well, John, the other 19 Premier League clubs,
22:58Liverpool, who you'd say have plenty of firepower, they're after another striker whose name I can't
23:08quite recall. I was going to say, there's a lad at Newcastle that wants out, if Sunderland fans.
23:14I know. Yeah, I mean, listen, every man has done once a proven goalscorer. I've heard a lot of good
23:23things about Gooey, although, and I think you might remember this, back two years ago,
23:32I came into the press room at the stadium, I like, I think it was ahead of the Southampton,
23:36the 5-0 game. And I said, a friend of mine, who covers Chelsea and Fulham, he said, he rang me up
23:46and said, oh, Sunderland have got a good player in Mason Burstow. So, I was chatting to him again
23:54today, and I reminded him of that. He said, no, we're talking, he said, we're talking, you know,
23:59different levels here. And he said, he predicts that Gooey will, will eventually be Sunderland's
24:04number one starter this season. So, but, you know, we do know, because Sunderland did try and sign a
24:13goal scoring wide manner, what was it there? Lorient, yeah, from Sicily. Yeah, that's right.
24:23Correct me if I'm wrong here, but I think Mundell was fit at the time. So, not only did he not come in,
24:28but Mundell, you know, he thought, Labrie thought he had, he would have two players for that position.
24:36Now, what he's using is Hidingre and Tolby, who I think possibly were brought in to compete against,
24:43against each other. So, yes, I do think something could do with another player to score goals,
24:51probably a wide player. And all of a sudden, the name Diallo, Amad Diallo is cropping up.
24:59He didn't come for Man United, the first game. And yesterday, he was taken off, I think after 52
25:05minutes, he's playing out of position, and he didn't play particularly well yesterday. Now,
25:11I'm not saying it's, it's going to happen. It's what a lot of Sunderland fans dream about. But
25:17funnier things do happen in football, and there's going to be a lot of shocks and surprises in the
25:22next seven days. I think it's criminally, and I watched that game yesterday, that he's playing
25:27right wing back in a back five. I think, just to go off on a tangent a little bit, but I can't see
25:32that formation ever working at Manchester United. And playing Diallo there, just, it makes no sense
25:38to me. He can't be, he can't be happy with that, given what we know about and what we saw from him
25:43when he was at Sunderland, that free flow and elegance in attack, who was given a free roll
25:48really by Tony Mulberry, wasn't he? He must be sat there thinking, God, this is miserable.
25:54Well, you do wonder, because it's pretty clear now that Manchester United will stick with the
26:01three at the back. So really, the only position open to him is that wing back slot, which as you
26:08can correctly say, isn't his forte. I always think why buy a Ferrari if you're going to drive
26:14it like a Fiat Punto, you know what I mean? That's how I feel with Ahmad at the moment.
26:22I'm one of these drivers who drives a Fiat Punto and tries to drive it like a Ferrari.
26:27I'll quickly run through my predicted 11 for the Huddersfield game tomorrow night.
26:31I think Paterson will go in goal, as you say, Ian. I think we might see minutes for Huggins.
26:38Masuaku, left back, I think we'll see the lad from PSG come in, Mooka Lele.
26:43A lot of people have got Jenson sealed in their predicted 11s. I actually think he'll bring in
26:47Zach Johnson. I think he'll give some minutes to him ahead of his exit at some point, and I think
26:52everybody else will be rested in that defensive line. Neil Riggard-Lefe, I think in the middle,
26:58I think Roberts will go right wing. I think you could see Isidor left wing, and then Mark Guiou up
27:04front. And it's a bit of an opportunity for the likes of Guiou and Isidor, isn't it? Because,
27:09you know, if either of them scores a couple of goals and looks really good, then all of a sudden,
27:13the chat coming into the Brentford game shifts towards whether they should be starting or not.
27:19Oh yeah, listen, there's so many questions before the game, and there will be questions that remain
27:23after the game, whatever the outcome. I, with that, the final friendly against Rea Belacano,
27:33and as you remember, you know, one squad was dispatched to Germany to play quite impressively
27:39against Augsburg. The other squad were on duty 24 hours later, and they lost quite comprehensively to
27:46an impressive Spanish side. Dan Neil that day was probably Sundland's best performer by some distance,
27:54and I'm sure tomorrow his pride will be hurt, his determination will be fueled, and his passion for
28:02Sundland will come out, and I've got no doubt whatsoever he will play well. As I said earlier,
28:09that we do wonder, will it be a case of giving players a game because they haven't played yet? Will
28:16he try and try and develop some combinations? What I do now is that sentiment won't come into
28:26Labrie's equation whatsoever. I'm going to just bring you back a few years, show us how long I've been
28:32doing doing this job. And the story, I mentioned that when I was giving a talk at Sundland City
28:38Supporters Club in Quiggies Park before the season started. And I remember, in 1990, Dennis Smith's
28:44Sundland side, which of course, if you, if you recall, went up because of Swindon's misdemeanours.
28:51Anyway, Kevin Ball had been one of the main signings, and he had a quite difficult pre-season game
28:57against Torpedo Moscow. And that must have shaped Dennis Smith's selection. Sundland's first game was
29:04at Norwich City, and he played John McPhail alongside Gary Bennett. Now, some of that was because it was
29:14still taking Kevin Ball, who subsequently, of course, became a legend at the club. Then it took him a little
29:20while to settle, but sentiment came into it. John McPhail had been at, with, with Dennis
29:27Smith at York City. He played a prominent part in Sundland getting promotion from third tier to second tier.
29:35I think, astonishingly, I think he scored 16, 17 goals. He's a penalty taker. And he did well in the
29:41season when Sundland went up through the playoffs. So, I do think there was a little bit of emotion,
29:47a little bit of sentiment. In that decision, Dennis Smith said he's been a great servant. He deserves at
29:54least one top flight appearance in his career. Sundland played well, lost 3-2. McPhail, I don't think,
30:00played for the club again. Kevin Ball came in, and I think he's played the year. Side-tracking a bit,
30:06but that is how much football has changed now. Nothing like that will even enter Libri's mind. You know,
30:16this is about doing, is balancing game time, game time with forming partnerships with getting the
30:23result that he wants. That leads me nicely to me, my next question. And I promise there's a point
30:29coming after this question, Ian, but how many years now have you been on the beat writing about
30:34northeast football? If you don't mind me asking. Well, no grey hair, and I've still got my own teeth.
30:40And some people would say I've still got the same hairstyle.
30:45I, this is my 40th season. Now, I think it's 40 years next August since my first game.
30:55I, I had a, I think the Sundland Necco out of all, uh, out of the, the main, uh,
31:01regional establishment is the only one I didn't work for. I had a short six months at the Shields
31:05Gazette. And all I was doing there, it was a small desk, and I would fill in, uh, when people
31:11are on holiday. And so at the beginning of the season, I covered it at Newcastle, I turned to Liverpool,
31:16Newcastle away to Tottenham. And then I remember covering a couple of Sumberland games when, uh,
31:23Laurie McMenny was in charge. One, I can remember, I was, you know, listening, my ears were burning,
31:29I was scared to say something. There was, there, at that time, it was almost, uh,
31:34outright war between him and, and the media. Uh, I went, when I went to the Northern Echo,
31:40I covered the lower division clubs, Darlick and Hardy, Booth, Scarborough, York. Again,
31:43filled in now and again for, um, uh, for people on holiday. So for instance, at the start of the 89,
31:5190 season, I was at, uh, Swindon when, when, when Sumberland won. And then I moved to the Chronicle
31:59and I covered Sumberland outright for five years. Uh, a lot of that was for professional reasons. It
32:06was also because I was living in Newcastle and I was getting married. I actually left the
32:11North Echo two days before I got married. And, uh, so my first game covering Sunderland on a regular
32:19basis is older, older viewers, listeners of yours, readers will remember this is one of their favorite
32:26games. It was Sunderland 4, West Ham 3, the Kieran Brainy game, which became known as I'm quite
32:34friendly with Kieran because obviously we're both Celtic fans. And I remember that after that game,
32:41seeking out Liam Brady, who was a hero of mine, because I was, you know, I followed
32:47public-rounded football. And anyway, I remember getting an interview, Brady on Brady. So,
32:54that was a great time. And of course, who would, a few weeks later, suddenly beat Newcastle in the
32:59playoffs. Then they went up and that season, 1991, which I think is forgotten by some people,
33:07Sunderland played some of the most amazing football I've seen in the first half of the season
33:11before gradually, you know, entering the relegation quagmire. Anyway, so then, 1995, I moved
33:19to the journal and, uh, covered Newcastle, Sunderland and Middlesbrough. Uh, some of my happiest times
33:25because all three clubs were on the rise at the time. You know, you had Keegan's Entertainers,
33:31Kenny Dagleish, Bobby Robson. You had Peter Reid, Quinn, Phillips, promotion, move to the stadium
33:38alike. And then you had Middlesbrough, Robson, Janinho, Rabinelli, Emerson. So I had a season ticket
33:45for Wembley. I went down so much in those days. You've got a very poor record at Wembley though,
33:50I understand, Ian. Absolutely dreadful. My middle name is Jonah. And, uh, and that my reputation was
33:58reinforced by the fact that, uh, I kept jumping a few years, strong decades down the line. I turned
34:06freelance in, in, in 2020. So that meant I didn't tend to go to games outside the area. So I tend to
34:13cover games with, with, within the North East. But anyway, I remember I moved to the daily start of the
34:18turn of the millennium. The one game that I never covered because I was in between jobs. I left the
34:25journal on the Friday and started at the start on the Monday. So I had no game to cover, but it was the,
34:32I went to the stadium alike and saw Sunderland demolished Chelsea 4-1. And what a lot of people would
34:39still say was the best performance I've ever seen. Certainly the best 45 minutes I've ever seen from
34:44a Sunderland style. So yeah. So, so, so Daily Star then, Daily Star and Daily Express. Daily Express,
34:51when Reach took over, Daily Mirror as well covered. Uh, I used to cover, I covered Wimbledon for 15 years,
34:59loved that. Uh, Republic of Ireland football. And then 2017, the Sports Centre, who was a very good friend of
35:06mine. He said, do you want the bad news or the good news? I said, I'll have the bad news. He said,
35:09you're not covering Wimbledon this year. And I said, but what's the good news? He said, I want you to
35:15go to the World Cup. I want you on the England beach. And I said, is that good news? And actually it was,
35:22you know, England, it was called the impossible job for the managers. But it's also, when, when the likes
35:29of Capello were in charge, it was, uh, it was, uh, what, what's it? A miserable experience a lot
35:35of the time for the journalists. Gareth Southgate was in charge, who I knew from his
35:40military days, gone on very well with him. I was welcomed into the pack, uh, very well. I had
35:46three very happy years, not three, two and a half happy years covering England. Uh, the seven weeks
35:52of spending Russia was an experience of a lifetime. So, uh, and then as I say, since then, uh, my
36:00traveling has gone down from, uh, something like 20, 25 flights a year to just my family holiday flights.
36:10Oh, fantastic. The question I was going to get to all of that experience you've got in over the years,
36:14all of the football seasons, you know, you talked about Dennis Smith in the nineties, all of your
36:19experience, good for Newcastle and the Premier League, Middlesbrough, England. How does this season
36:24feel to you from a Sunderland perspective? How do you think it will go?
36:30I can't recall the feel good factor, uh, being so strong on Weirside and its surrounding areas,
36:41because let's not forget Sunderland are not a city team. They're a regional team, even beyond region as well.
36:46Um, but yeah, the fans are in a good place. You know, when, uh, you see those fans in, uh,
36:54marks out of 10, how would you mark your mantra? How would you mark your, your, your owner? I think
36:59they're both be 10 out of 10 at the minutes. Uh, I, I think the two most important qualities
37:06that the football club needs to possess are identity and connectivity. Now they got that when
37:12Norway was in charge, they lost it under Beale and to a certain extent when Michael, Mike Dodds was an
37:17interim charge, they've got it back. They, you know, Sunderland will always be Sunderland AFC,
37:22but let's face it, they're Sunderland United at the moment, aren't they? You know, you feel everyone
37:28is at one, everyone is on the same page singing from the same hymn sheet. Of course it's going to be hard.
37:34I, when I saw a lot of pundits putting Sunderland 20th, 19th, 18th, there was that part of me which
37:43thought that's lazy. You haven't done your homework because you look at the recruitment and you can
37:50make a logical argument for every single player who's, who's come to the club. This isn't scattercombe.
37:55This was very spiritual reinforcements. Having said that, you know, I am, how should I put this?
38:05Yeah, I'm slightly less confident now than I was on Saturday morning.
38:12We all, we all lurch from result to result in this business, don't we? We just lurch from high to low.
38:17Yeah, and listen, there will be, whether you've got Leeds connections, maybe 24 hours time,
38:25Newcast connections or Liverpool connections, you know, their, their moods, their, their,
38:31the field goal factor within them will be determined by what happens tonight. I haven't
38:36answered your question. I do think Sunderland will stay up. I do think that there is this momentum.
38:42I know I started off by saying, is this a spike balloon or is this momentum stored? I don't
38:46think momentum stalled. Uh, I think Sunderland will beat Brentford on Saturday. Uh, if the fans
38:54can do half as good a job as they did last Saturday, then there really will be a 12th minor game. Uh, so,
39:02so yes, the, the confidence is still in place, even if it ever since likely diluted.
39:09Maybe a bit of blind optimism here from myself Ian, but obviously Leeds have won. I know they got
39:15hammered off Arsenal a week after, but Sunderland have won, Burnley have won. I don't think that
39:19happened until, was it October last season? We know that the, the two latest, um, in, in the past
39:28two Premier League seasons, we know all three teams have, have gone down each season. But again, maybe
39:34this is me being a complete blind optimist, maybe a bit naive to the beat of the Premier League as well,
39:38with having been in the league one of the championship for so long, but it does feel like there's a chance this
39:43season actually that it won't be the three promoted teams going down again. And that gives me a little
39:47bit of hope. I'm not saying all three will survive, but just judging by West Ham, maybe Wolves as well.
39:53Brentford I know got a, got a good win, but it seems to me like there could be a little bit of movement
39:58this season. I think it was a coincidence that the three, uh, teams who went down the last two
40:09seasons with the two, with the, with the three who come up the previous year. Now that's not to
40:15underestimate the cousin between the leagues. It's looking at each individual case. Let's take last season,
40:22uh, Ipswich, Ipswich recruitment drive was misguided. Uh, Kieran McKenna, good manager fit. He and his, uh,
40:33recruitment team thought if we can sign the best place in the championship, Jack Clark B1, then that
40:40will see us survive. Now that proved patently wrong. Leicester was a club which, you know, the title
40:50of 2016 seen a million, million years away. They were a club where I understand that there's a power
40:57struggle. There's, uh, behind the scenes all is not right and has been proved countless times when a
41:03club has those problems. What happens off the pitch, it tends to erode what happens on the pitch.
41:10Southampton, well, I'm not just saying this as a Celtic fan, but I think, uh, Russell Martin isn't
41:17improving the, the, the, the great manager that he thinks he is. One of the most ridiculous
41:26strategies I've ever seen in the Premier League was Southampton last season, refusing to compromise
41:33the style, playing from the back and being time and time again, caught out. So, you know,
41:40It's so pretentious to do that, in my opinion, Ian. It's so, I just think it's ridiculous.
41:46Give me a, give me, don't get me wrong. I love an idealist like a Brian Clough.
41:50Give me a cold, hard pragmatist that he's in the week to keep you in the league.
41:54Well, I think what some of them have got is a cold, hard and pragmatist.
41:58Quite like, quite likable, despite his cold heart. I like, I like the piece.
42:04It's mild, certainly isn't cold, but, uh, yeah. Uh, so, you know, you look at those teams,
42:10even the previous year, you know, let's face it, Luton,
42:14who are now playing third tier football. They were, out of the six teams who've gone down the past
42:19years, Luton were the ones who, uh, came closest to, to survival. So it's, when we are not talking
42:27mission impossible. What we've had this season, we probably, of course, Manchester United and Tottenham
42:33won't be down, down at the bottom. And Everton, I don't think, will be either. But you have got
42:39certain teams which do appear on the decline, i.e. West Ham. You've got another team in Wolves who've
42:45lost their best players. Uh, I would, I would have said Fulham because I haven't recruited,
42:51but, uh, they looked pretty good yesterday. But certainly, certainly those, those two teams,
42:57uh, and Grenfell, of course, who are in a mess despite the win of Saturday, which is very impressive.
43:05But, uh, you know, if, if they, if they lose Wysa, which I think they will this week, and then
43:18Bemo, uh, that's a huge, huge loss. Uh, I did see, I've read two or three reports saying that, uh,
43:25Joan Henderson had a very, very good game. And although you didn't see him a lot on the ball,
43:31on match of the day, what you could see was in the, in the background was him barking out orders.
43:36So it's still the same Joan Henderson. I guess, though, that's the thing though, isn't it?
43:41From a Sutherland point of view, Ian, it's the hope that kills you, isn't it? It feels like there's
43:45a glimmer. And we, we've been here before where it's, um, you know, I'm not saying the season's
43:50going to end like this, but it can all end in, in tears, can't it? Despite the early, early season
43:55optimism. Listen, Sunderland have one of the best fanzines in the country. Thank goodness.
44:01A Love Supreme is still published in print form, but, uh, it's won a lot of awards, but one award
44:09it won't win is the best ever title of Sunderland fanzine. That was one back in the nineties.
44:15It's a hope I can't stand, which was the purest, purest title for a fanzine.
44:23No, absolutely. Well, Ian, thank you for joining us. It's, um, it's been like old times, sat in a
44:28classroom at Sunderland University. We actually had a Connor Bromley on last week and we were saying
44:33off, um, off camera that we miss it as well. No, I know it was only, it was only during, uh,
44:42one term and, uh, I'd only be in once a week, but I loved it. And it's absolutely fantastic seeing
44:47you doing so well at Sunderland. I've always seen Connor do so well and a lot of the others. It's,
44:52it's, it's a fine institution, Sunderland University. Don't just say it, my, my brother's, uh, now,
44:58uh, a non-executive director on the board.
45:00Oh, is he?
45:01Yeah. So, uh, that's another reason for liking the university. So, uh, you keep
45:07carry on doing the good work and, uh, see if you can make 40 years.
45:11Yeah, no, well, yeah. Uh, thanks for that. We, um, we had good teachers. Me and Connor were saying
45:17that we miss Ian Myrtle's sports quizzes on, uh, I think it was Thursday afternoons. They were good fun.
45:23Uh, I, I always, I used to love doing them and, uh, and here, here I go again, going off tangent. But,
45:30uh, it's something, it made me feel old in the sense that, uh, a few people wanted, uh, wanted
45:37questions on, on, on, uh, combat sports, which I knew nothing about American football, which I know
45:43little about. And yet people didn't have a clue about golf and cricket or, and then I also remember
45:50when, um, the Cheltenham festival was on and I'd always give you my tips. Now I got into, into
45:57horse racing when I was, when I moved into sports journalism at the age of 21, 22 and all the,
46:05all the guys I looked up to with names like, you know, Bob Cass and, uh, and the like, and Cheltenham
46:11festival was, was the sporting paradise. And, uh, and I got into it then, but, uh, I couldn't
46:16persuade any of you lots to, uh, put a five on my tips just as well. That, uh, that brings me, uh,
46:22brings back a memory to me, actually. I remember having an absolutely cracking class debate
46:26on the morality of boxing versus horse racing. You, you were arguing that, um, you know,
46:33boxing is in a sense, a little bit immoral and, you know, it should be banned, but horse
46:37racing was okay. We were having this back and forth. And I think we were all just stirring,
46:41stirring up the pot, but it was, um, it was a good debate actually in the end. I enjoyed it.
46:45I once, I had a friend at university boxing and suffered a bit of brain damage. So my, uh,
46:51my opinions were very much shaped by, by that, that experience.
46:55No, absolutely. Well, Ian, thank you for joining us. It's been, uh, it's been great. What's your
46:59prediction actually? We'll go, we'll go for a Huddersfield town prediction and we'll go for
47:02a Brentford prediction as well. Why not?
47:05Right. 2-0, 2-0.
47:07Brilliant. Both to Sunderland, I'm guessing.
47:10Both to Sunderland.
47:12Fantastic. Right. Thank you very much, Ian. Um, yeah. If you want to hear about the
47:16Huddersfield town and Brentford games, you can head over to the Southern Echo website.
47:20We'll have you fully covered. I believe Phil's at the press conference today on Monday as we're
47:25recording. Uh, so we'll bring you all of the latest injury news, hopefully some positive news
47:29on Dan Ballard. Thank you for watching. Don't forget to subscribe and we will catch you next time.
47:34And I'll see you tomorrow night.
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