Audie sits down with The Atlantic staff writer Faith Hill, who covers what she's described as "the slow, quiet demise of American romance," for a breakdown of the uniquely modern challenges and consequences of searching for love on your phone.
Listen to the full episode of CNN's The Assignment podcast: https://link.chtbl.com/Sq6SgL_j
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Listen to the full episode of CNN's The Assignment podcast: https://link.chtbl.com/Sq6SgL_j
#CNN #News #Dating
# news #breaking #24x7
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NewsTranscript
00:00There are now so many apps around finding love. People just call them the apps. And what works about them and what doesn't work about them?
00:12Well, I would say what works about them is that it helps people just find prospects. And I mean, that is kind of a big deal because, you know, in a lot of points in the past, you were kind of subject to fate and had to be kind of passive in your own dating life.
00:31You know, if there wasn't someone in your community or someone that your friends knew to set you up with, you might have just had to, you know, wait around.
00:39And today there is more agency, you know, you can kind of decide that you want to date and go out and download these apps and set a date up.
00:50But the flip side of that agency is responsibility. And, you know, a lot of people feel like dating is like a side job now. It takes time.
01:02It takes, you know, time out of your normal life because you're meeting up with strangers essentially for a job interview rather than kind of meeting people in your regular life while you're with your other friends at parties or bars.
01:15And so it sets up kind of a strange dating situation. And I think for a lot of people, it also, you know, leads to too many options.
01:27It's kind of the flip side of not having a lot of options, but it does feel like when there are so many people that you could be swiping through, it's exhausting, first of all, and then also kind of, you know, feels like these aren't real people, but just sort of, you know, that it's it's a game and it becomes very transactional.
01:50In what ways have political trends poisoned the dating well?
01:55So I think that we are in a very tricky political and cultural moment for dating just because, you know, men and women are kind of growing further apart in a lot of ways, and especially among young people, you see that young men are moving further to the right, young women growing more progressive.
02:18And I think for a lot of women in particular, it can just sort of feel like this is not a time where I trust men, I feel respected by men, I don't necessarily want to go out and meet strangers who are men.
02:34We have an administration that is, you know, stripping away reproductive rights and protections against gender discrimination.
02:42And you can see in surveys that there is this kind of resentment among a lot of men, kind of a backlash to Me Too, a backlash to women gaining financial independence, going to college more than men now, where, you know, there's among Gen Z even far more women who identify as feminists than men.
03:08And so I think there is a real feeling among women that the sort of larger political backdrop is it's seeping into individual relationships and making it really hard to trust people.
03:23Is that happening on gay and straight apps, meaning you've got older, you've got younger, so many of these Tinder and Hinge, et cetera, more and more people are signing up for them.
03:39And are the problems with dating with heterosexual couples, or is this endemic to the format itself?
03:48This is something I think about a lot, and I think that on the one hand, a lot of queer people are having a hard time dating too.
03:58And certainly some of the issues with apps, with modern dating are, you know, just kind of baked into the structure of how we do it these days.
04:06And I hear, you know, a lot of people looking for gay relationships who are talking about a lot of the same frustrations, you know, for instance, with dating apps, just kind of showing like a million people they could potentially meet up with, but then kind of always ending up in ghosting or people not responding or not getting treated well.
04:33I think because, you know, there's a real lack of accountability that comes with dating strangers.
04:41If you have social connections in common, you're, I think, just a lot likely, a lot more likely to treat someone well, like someone's going to be waiting to hear about how the date went.
04:52You know, so that's just one example of ways in which, you know, I think it's not just a problem for straight people.
05:01But I do also think, you know, within straight relationships, there are these issues of men and women growing further apart and kind of the trust disintegrating.
05:15And you hear a lot of people talk about this idea of like hetero pessimism today, which, you know, I think just gets at this idea that a lot of people, a lot of women particularly are fed up with the way that they're being treated by men on the apps.
05:35And with this kind of backdrop of like hearing about, you know, how few men would call themselves feminists or the kind of whole manosphere of resentful single men becoming this kind of cultural force that is like swaying elections.
05:53And I do think it is kind of a unique context also for women who are looking for straight relationships.
06:02Yeah, because with the conversation around the tea app and now the tea on her app, it feels like those are not matchmaking services.
06:12Those feel very hostile, you know, and to me, it's some weird tipping point in the story of social media matchmaking.
06:22You see. Yeah, I mean, I think tea, really, it was just a great demonstration of what we're talking about.
06:31I mean, first of all, the fact that so many women wanted a platform to, you know, discuss men that they might be dating to talk about who might have treated other women badly.
06:44A lot of people, you know, pointed out rightfully issues with that app.
06:48But I do think there is a reason that women wanted something like this.
06:52So many women having bad experiences and just kind of, you know, feeling like it's it's a risk these days to kind of go out and trust men.
07:03And and then, you know, with the whole security breach that happened with that app where women's photos ended up being shared on the Internet, you know, women who had used this app and their private messages exposed like I.
07:18And men gleefully saying, look, you deserved it.
07:21Yeah. Right. Like this was defamatory.
07:23This was that, like, again, it's just a case where I don't feel the technology making things better.
07:30No. Yeah. Right.
07:32It demonstrated both the gleeful cruelty of a lot of these men out there and sort of what women are facing in their dating lives.
07:41And also the ways that women have been failed by tech companies that are supposed to be helping them date are supposed to be, you know, like to you, supposed to make dating safer for women.
07:55And it's just this horrible irony that, you know, it it put a lot of women in danger.
08:00And revealing to men who feel like I how do I find love if I'm the enemy?
08:08Right. Yeah, I think it's this very sort of difficult period where, you know, when there is that kind of lack of trust and sort of retreat, you know, men and women retreating from each other.
08:24I think women retreating because they don't feel safer, respected, but also, you know, probably some good men out there who are then also retreating because this, you know, just they don't know what is expected or wanted from them.
08:39They don't know quite how to do this the right way.
08:40They feel like the enemy.
08:42And then, of course, like that leaves the men there who are perhaps less likely to be thinking about these things in the first place who are more resentful.
08:51So I do think it's it's a dangerous cycle.
08:57Am I part of the problem?
08:58And are you part of the problem?
09:00Meaning are news stories about how bad it is kind of contributing to the atmosphere?
09:06Are pundits talking about or or podcasters?
09:10Right. Like kind of being doing the men are this women are that like are we making it worse?
09:16I worry about that.
09:17I do.
09:18And I think there's so much of a narrative these days about how bad dating is and and and yeah, about, you know, women's sort of valid fears about what could go wrong.
09:33Like I don't want to give readers the idea or listeners the idea that it's always going to be bad.
09:41They always need to be distrustful.
09:44But I also think there's a reason that this narrative exists.
09:49People are picking up on something and, you know, people want to feel like that is heard, like they're not crazy.
09:56So I think some kind of balance needs to be struck where we're like discussing these issues that already exist and and and also not sort of taking advantage of that fear, which I think, you know, there's a way in which the T app kind of exploited this sort of fear that a lot of women have and didn't ultimately help them.
10:20And I do think, you know, you've seen fear of sexual assault rising among women since, you know, in the last few years, you've seen people saying they're distrustful of dating apps, feel that, you know, number of women who feel that dating apps seem safe.
10:41That's kind of growing.
10:41So I do think there's a real like there's an ambient sense that things are all wrong and some of that is rooted in truth and some of it is kind of a reaction to the narrative.
10:53And it's hard to pull apart, you know, where one starts and one begin and one end.
10:58Especially if one starts with physical safety and intimacy, but then also you've got anxiety about emotional intimacy and safety.
11:10Right.
11:10That, yeah, the distrust, like it only gets worse in a way if people are already anxious about what it takes to make a connection.
11:21Right, right, right.
11:23And I mean, I think on the one hand, those, you know, the physical and emotional bad experiences can be interconnected.
11:33Like there is a way in which, you know, in the conversation about the T app, I was kind of struck by how many people were saying like, well, it's not just a place where women, you know, talk about physical abusers.
11:47They're also just like gossiping about men and, and I do think, you know, there was a lot of due process and privacy issues with that app and it would not, you know, say that it was a great product.
12:01But at the same time, I don't think there's a complete divide between those things.
12:05I think a lot of times when people are saying that there was gossip, people are talking about women having, you know, describing experiences that were upsetting to them, you know, being treated badly on a date or even something that might sound more subtle.
12:22Like, you know, a man like never asking them any questions like it is, you know, there's such a spectrum and a lot of the issues people were talking about were things that, you know, shouldn't ruin a man's reputation and mean that women never date them again.
12:37And that wouldn't be right.
12:38But, you know, I also think it's fair for women to be saying like, I'm tired of having a lot of bad dates that are making me feel really bad and make me want to sort of just drop out of the dating game entirely.
12:52In the end, how do you prevent whatever frustrations you might personally have from getting into your work?
12:59Because like for me as a journalist, each week I'm doing something completely different.
13:03You're doing something that like, you know, is connected in some ways to your personal experience.
13:09And I can imagine, of course, you know, critics being like, oh, of course, she's going to say that she's a single woman.
13:14And like, how do you tease apart yourself and and affirming something that that people believe to be true?
13:26Mm hmm. I think I actually I think it's first of all, I think it's like, in some ways, a good thing that I'm not coming from like a total outsider perspective, because I never want it to feel kind of like zoological where I'm yes, I'm worried about that with this.
13:43I was like, should I even do this topic? Like I, I got married, like when Craigslist was out, like it felt like I could not participate.
13:53Right. So I do hear what you're saying on that.
13:57Yeah, no. And I mean, I think in some ways that's helpful. Like you are able to ask questions from a real place of curiosity.
14:03Like this is strange to me. Like, tell me what this is like. And I think that's important, too.
14:08I think it's important to have both. I do think like I like that I can kind of tell sources I'm talking to like, hey, I understand this.
14:17Like, I'm you know, I've been through it myself. I'm not judging or kind of ogling.
14:25But then I also think it's really important that like, you know, every time I write a piece, I'm not just relying on my own observations.
14:34I am. Yeah, there's a lot of data out there. All these app companies have like research blogs and they're more than willing to share.
14:41Yeah, there's a lot of research going on. And that's always the basis of every piece is, you know, finding studies, talking to researchers.
14:51And and I think I use my own experience sometimes to like think about where to look and what stories I should talk to researchers about.
14:58But I also think, you know, I I kind of first started writing a little bit from the opposite perspective of like, you know, everyone is talking about dating being so hard.
15:12I actually think dating has always been hard. And, you know, so even though I was having a hard time dating, I was kind of like being almost overly cautious and sort of thinking like I should not just assume that dating is particularly hard right now.
15:28And I kind of took the opposite tack. And then, you know, as I've been reporting this and learning more about it and researching, like I I think I've really learned some reasons that modern dating in some ways is particularly hard in a way that kind of has lined up with my personal and observational anecdotal experience.
15:47But which I feel like I kind of came around to actually through the intellectual pursuit rather than the personal one.
15:55Yeah, I feel like scared to tell you any dating stories of my vintage because the few times I've mentioned it in passing to like people I work with, they look at me like I'm crazy.
16:06Like at one time I went on an extended riff about the misconnection section of Craigslist and people looked at me like, oh, there was like a serial killer section for dating.
16:17Like and I I kind of felt like those were considered romantic at the time.
16:22You know, I met people who actually got married, you know, off of a misconnection Internet posting.
16:28And I didn't to me, I'm like the stranger that you meet in an app.
16:32Like, how is that different from the stranger someone else met in the grocery store?
16:37It's still a stranger and it just doesn't seem like you guys have all the data in the world and it hasn't made it easier.
16:46Yeah.
16:47In that process.
16:49Right. And I think that you're so right that, you know, people have all this nostalgia for what they imagine dating used to be like.
16:57But often they're, you know, thinking of sort of serendipitous encounters with strangers and and that.
17:04Yeah, something they saw in the movies.
17:06Right.
17:07It was still fraught with rejection.
17:09Like you had voicemails that you had to check on a physical machine.
17:13Like there were lots of aspects of it that were absolutely trash.
17:18Blind dates.
17:21Yeah.
17:21Just being rejected in public in front of all your friends somewhere or whatever.
17:25As you said, a date goes bad and like other people now know about it because it's not someone far away on an app you ghosted and hope you never see in the city.
17:34Like there were ways that it was not good.
17:36Yeah.
17:36And I don't know if it's our capacity for risk, anxiety, the standard, so to speak, that was different.
17:44Right. Right.
17:44I mean, it's vulnerable in a different kind of way.
17:47That's so true.
17:48Like you weren't necessarily meeting up with as many strangers, but you were kind of, you know, your dating life was less private.
17:55Like it is, there's a way in which you can be so private and almost kind of anonymous on apps these days.
18:02And it, it is like, I wouldn't be used to that.
18:05And I've, you know, I've had some times where I've been set up by friends and I do feel very self-conscious about that.
18:11Like everyone knows that we're going on dates.
18:14Like, you know, if it doesn't work out, what is everyone going to think?
18:16Like everyone's in everyone's business.
18:18Yeah.
18:19Yeah.
18:19What they'll think is you're a bad person.
18:21I'll just tell you.
18:21Like a hundred percent.
18:23I mean, it gets messy.
18:26It gets messy.
18:27Is that better or worse than being ghosted repeatedly to the point where you're like scared to put yourself out there?
18:32I don't know.
18:33Right.
18:33Like ghosting is almost the opposite of messy.
18:36It's like too clean.
18:37So it's like complete clean break.
18:41But more traumatizing.
18:43Like people talk about ghosting.
18:44It's like, like the act of not being responded to is somehow like people talk about it like it's a trauma.
18:53And I'm like, try being dumped in a restaurant.
18:56Right.
18:57I mean, I think that's the reason people hate ghosting.
19:01But I do kind of think it's become this sort of like boogeyman for modern dating where so often people are talking about ghosting being the problem.
19:11And I think it's because a lot of people have experienced it.
19:13And, you know, so they're like that's on their minds.
19:15But I think there's something to be said sometimes for like the the mutual soft ghost, you know, of my God, the mutual soft ghost.
19:28You mean when y'all let your relationships peter out?
19:32That is what I mean.
19:33But I will say only in the very early phases, you know, after one or two dates and not not when you've been dating someone for months.
19:41But the sometimes all that bit by bit talking can go for like three months.
19:47Oh, yeah.
19:47You know, like there's something about the low.
19:50The low stakesness of texting and of DMing and of having that very quick bite that is very different from having to pick up a physical phone and call someone or meeting up with them just one more time.
20:03Like, I feel like people can.
20:07Yeah.
20:07Like, again, creating a situation that like goes longer than it needs to, but actually doesn't accomplish anything anyone wants out of it, except the dopamine hit of being something you did on your phone.
20:18Mm hmm.
20:19Mm hmm.
20:20Right.
20:20I think it's such a good point.
20:23It's funny, like dating is supposed to be kind of like more efficient now with apps, but often it's the opposite.
20:31That's true.
20:32Right.
20:33Like there's so many sort of situationships that go on for many months because there's no conversation happening about, you know, what each person wants, no direct communication.
20:44Right.
20:45A ton of just like messaging on the apps before even ever meeting, like it's not actually efficient a lot of the time.
20:52It's kind of like like slowly wasting time with a large number of people.
20:58Like I do think, you know, I know so many people who have had so many situationships at the same time or one after the other where they're kind of they get to the end of it and they feel like that that did not have to last so long.
21:13We kind of just like didn't didn't figure out immediately because we both kind of felt like maybe it would work.
21:23But then we also had other options.
21:25We're talking to other people like it's just a lot of ways in which you sort of linger in something.
21:30So if matchmaking is back and double dating is back through the apps, of course, what's one thing you would want to know about pre app dating that I or anyone else could answer?
21:43That you have questions about like people have nostalgia about it, but you have questions about.
21:50I guess I'm curious how much people actually struck up conversation with strangers or near strangers rather than, you know, because I know sort of the most common way people used to meet partners was like through friends and family.
22:06So, you know, that's one thing.
22:09And I think to some degree it kind of still happens.
22:12But the sort of people have so much nostalgia for, yeah, like people just chatting sort of more loosely with people they don't know well.
22:20And I'm curious, you know, in what spaces you found that that really happened and how common it was.
22:26I think it's not that everybody was just sparking off of everyone all the time.
22:32Like, I'm sorry I've made this conversation feel like the grocery store was like so lit.
22:36Like, that isn't what I mean.
22:38But you weren't looking at your phone all the time.
22:41Like, you just weren't.
22:44Like, the odds of actually even making eye contact with someone was just way higher.
22:49So, like, when I met my husband, I think he was just, like, sitting outside the office having a cigarette.
22:56And I was like, hi, is this the place?
22:59You know, like, I'm looking for a building.
23:01That was an interaction we would not have if I was on my phone using a map app and he was on his phone, right?
23:10Like, vaping or whatever.
23:13And it's the same thing.
23:14I remember once a guy hopped off the bus to be like, hey, like, are you single?
23:20You know, and I told someone that story and they were like, that is crazy.
23:23Like, that person would be a stalker.
23:25Like, I would run from that person.
23:29And I was like, oh, I thought it was kind of sweet.
23:31You know, like, again, if I was wearing earbuds, I would have kept walking.
23:36Like, we just were not as shut off from each other the way I feel like now everyone is, of all age groups.
23:46Like, gay, straight, whatever.
23:48You are taking the time that would have gone to potential interaction and giving it to a billionaire who runs an app.
23:58Like, whether that's Instagram or Facebook or TikTok or whatever, you have, like, given that serendipity to someone else so that you can, like, see another video.
24:09And it's another kind of dopamine hit.
24:12Does that make sense?
24:14Yeah, it does.
24:15Sort of, like, openness and presence in the world that made you, like, yeah, just more open to connections with other people.
24:24Yeah.
24:24Like, the elevator was awkward.
24:26You know what I mean?
24:27That's why we all looked up.
24:28That's why we all try not to look away.
24:30But if your eyes met with someone and they tapped or they tapped you on the shoulder, if you saw them every day for months because they worked in the same building, like, that's building something that's not the same, even though maybe it isn't as rich, I don't know, as swiping that same thing all the time, texting all the time, sexting all the time, and then letting it peter out.
24:54Right.
24:56So, yeah.
24:57I was recently talking to my editor about how I want to try an experiment where I just make more eye contact with people.
25:06Oh, they'll hate, people hate it.
25:08Yeah.
25:08Like, seriously.
25:10They just, like, they think you are, like, a little bit irritating because they're doing something.
25:17And that something is usually their phone.
25:19Right.
25:20That is such a bummer.
25:22I mean, I was hopeful.
25:23But I want you to try it.
25:24I want to read that article.
25:25I have complained about, you know, no one talking in bars, for instance.
25:31But then I'm kind of like, well, to be fair, I don't make eye contact with anyone in bars.
25:35So how would someone be able to start talking to me if I'm not looking at them?
25:39I'm, like, only looking at my friend or my feet, you know?
25:43Yeah.
25:44I remember doing a news story where I have this thing about when I'm on assignment, I don't eat in the hotel room or whatever where I'm staying.
25:55I always go somewhere.
25:56So I eat by myself a lot when I'm out in the world.
25:59And, like, the craziest stuff has happened, the way people respond to you, you know?
26:04Like, there were some women who came over to me kind of like, oh, my God, you're amazing.
26:08This is so brave.
26:09Because I was, like, eating and had a book.
26:13Like, there's just this sense of, like, well, what would you be doing here on your own, making eye contact with people?
26:21There's something up with that.
26:22Yeah, it's funny.
26:25On the one hand, we talk so much about people spending more time alone.
26:29On the other hand, it's not happening in public.
26:33Like, it's really, like, not just a retreat from social interaction, but also just, like, being in the world.
26:41I took a solo trip to Greece a couple years ago.
26:46And everyone that I talked to about this plan was like, oh, it'll be so great.
26:50You can meet new people.
26:51You can go on dating apps.
26:53You can, you know.
26:54And I was like, oh, no, I'm happy to be just, like, alone in a different place.
27:00Like, to me, that sounds really nice.
27:02But it is, like, a strange idea to people that one would even want that.
27:06Well, good luck with the apps.
27:10I've already told my husband divorce is not an option.
27:13Literally, because I just don't want to go on the apps.
27:17Like, that's the reason.
27:21Right.
27:21I'm just like, I'm not going back out there.
27:24That's not out.
27:24We're in it to win it now.
27:25Because I don't have the skill set necessary to function in the algorithm.
27:32So I'm just going to have to live vicariously through your writing.
27:36And root for me.
27:38You know, keep your fingers crossed.
27:39Okay, Faye, thank you so much.
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