- 2 days ago
In this episode, I examine the philosophy of lying, discussing its moral complexities and ethical implications. I differentiate between various types of falsehoods and their responsibilities, particularly for public figures. I explore the ethics of self-defense in verbal deceit, arguing that context matters when determining the moral weight of lying. Ultimately, I conclude that while lying is a breach of trust, it cannot be universally condemned, encouraging listeners to reflect on their own understanding of truth and deception.
FOLLOW ME ON X! https://x.com/StefanMolyneux
GET MY NEW BOOK 'PEACEFUL PARENTING', THE INTERACTIVE PEACEFUL PARENTING AI, AND THE FULL AUDIOBOOK!
https://peacefulparenting.com/
Join the PREMIUM philosophy community on the web for free!
Subscribers get 12 HOURS on the "Truth About the French Revolution," multiple interactive multi-lingual philosophy AIs trained on thousands of hours of my material - as well as AIs for Real-Time Relationships, Bitcoin, Peaceful Parenting, and Call-In Shows!
You also receive private livestreams, HUNDREDS of exclusive premium shows, early release podcasts, the 22 Part History of Philosophers series and much more!
See you soon!
https://freedomain.locals.com/support/promo/UPB2025
FOLLOW ME ON X! https://x.com/StefanMolyneux
GET MY NEW BOOK 'PEACEFUL PARENTING', THE INTERACTIVE PEACEFUL PARENTING AI, AND THE FULL AUDIOBOOK!
https://peacefulparenting.com/
Join the PREMIUM philosophy community on the web for free!
Subscribers get 12 HOURS on the "Truth About the French Revolution," multiple interactive multi-lingual philosophy AIs trained on thousands of hours of my material - as well as AIs for Real-Time Relationships, Bitcoin, Peaceful Parenting, and Call-In Shows!
You also receive private livestreams, HUNDREDS of exclusive premium shows, early release podcasts, the 22 Part History of Philosophers series and much more!
See you soon!
https://freedomain.locals.com/support/promo/UPB2025
Category
📚
LearningTranscript
00:00All right. Hope you're doing well, everybody.
00:02Stephen Molyneux from Freedomain.
00:04Freedomain.com slash donate to help out the show.
00:06I really would appreciate that.
00:08Freedomain.com slash donate.
00:10So, the philosophy of lying is really important.
00:15It is where a lot of moral theories go to die,
00:20to expire their last breath on an infinite saharacy of sophistry.
00:28It's a real challenge for moral philosophers.
00:31Now, of course, thou shalt not bear false witness is different from don't lie.
00:35Thou shalt not lie.
00:37Thou shalt not bear false witness means in matters of particular moral or legal import,
00:41you should tell the truth.
00:43And so, it's a little bit different from some sort of white lies and so on.
00:48So, the question of lying, well, let's define it.
00:52Of course, lying is the intentional misrepresentation of a fact.
00:58It is the promotion of a falsehood where the falsehood is known, right?
01:04There is an old joke.
01:06It's from my big fat Greek wedding.
01:09And the joke is that there's a guy marrying into a Greek family and the, he's not Greek,
01:16obviously, and the Greek brothers teach him rude phrases in Greek while pretending that
01:24they're innocuous.
01:25So, it's a beautiful day today is nice boobs or something like that, right?
01:30And so, the person who is honorably trying to learn Greek to impress his in-laws, the person
01:35who says nice boobs because he's been taught that that means what a lovely day, is not being
01:42rude because he is not knowledgeable of what he is being taught.
01:49He's being taught something he believes to be true, but it's not true.
01:53And so, of course, when he says, whatever, I can't remember the rude phrases to the mother,
01:59then the mother gets angry not at him, but at her sons who've been teaching him these rude
02:06phrases under the guise of instructing him in conversational Greek.
02:10She realizes immediately what has happened and she is not angry at her potential son-in-law
02:16or her incipient or immediate son-in-law, but she's angry at her sons who taught him these
02:22bad phrases.
02:23So, lying is an intentional misrepresentation.
02:27You can't just say of a fact because it could be an intentional misrepresentation of a lie.
02:34So, if someone is trying to fraudulently get a job as a surgeon and he puts down a reference
02:40and then a person pretends to be a reference and say, this guy's a great surgeon, he worked
02:46for me when he's not and didn't, then that is a lie.
02:49That is not just saying something is false when it's true, but also saying something is
02:56true when it's false.
02:58So, it is an intentional misrepresentation of the facts of reality with knowledge of the
03:05facts.
03:06And the fact could be that something is a lie.
03:09Now, that sort of immediate lying, there are other lies that you're responsible for even
03:16though you may believe them to be true.
03:18I just did a show on somebody who referred to Bitcoin as a Ponzi scheme.
03:24Now, he may believe that Bitcoin is a Ponzi scheme.
03:28He may even pass the lie detector test.
03:30Should such a thing be infallible, he may in fact pass the lie detector test in order
03:35to, and because he genuinely believes that Bitcoin is a Ponzi scheme.
03:40However, he is responsible for knowing the facts that he is putting out into the world.
03:48He is responsible for knowing whether these facts are true.
03:51So, if somebody says Bitcoin is a Ponzi scheme, even if they genuinely believe that Bitcoin is
03:59a Ponzi scheme, they're lying because Bitcoin is not a Ponzi scheme.
04:04And so, when you make a truth claim, you are responsible for knowing whether that claim
04:10is true or not, right?
04:13So, again, I'm no lawyer, but, you know, generally in defamation law, if you're a public figure,
04:18it has to be either actual malice, like you know it's false, but you say it anyway, or with
04:23a reckless disregard for the truth.
04:24If someone says Bob is a murderer, and they know he's not, but they just paid him, well,
04:30that's actual malice.
04:32And if, you know, one simple internet search could have shown them that Bob is not a murderer,
04:39that's a reckless disregard for the truth.
04:41Again, this is not legal advice.
04:42This is just my understanding about the general ethics behind the law, at least in America.
04:48Other laws, other countries have different laws.
04:50So, reckless disregard for the truth, you are responsible for falsehoods if you confidently
04:59proclaim information to be true that you have not researched.
05:05So, if somebody says, I think Bitcoin is a Ponzi scheme, then they are responsible for typing
05:12into any search engine or any AI that's competent and saying, what are the arguments for and
05:21against Bitcoin being a Ponzi scheme?
05:24What is the definition of a Ponzi scheme?
05:27And how does Bitcoin fit or not fit that?
05:31And with AI now, again, AI may not be perfect, but it will certainly give you a case and say,
05:37it is not as simple as saying that Bitcoin is a Ponzi scheme.
05:43Even if the AI is ambivalent, well, you could make this case, but then there's this case against,
05:48then you can't confidently say Bitcoin is a Ponzi scheme once you have been exposed to the arguments
05:54against your position.
05:57So, if you confidently state a position, you are responsible for knowing the counter arguments
06:02to your position.
06:04It's one of the things, by the by, that I just have kind of an issue with, with regards
06:09to the left.
06:10That the left says, this is true, this is the good, and they don't ever even research the
06:18counter arguments to their position.
06:19They have all the certainty of living in an echo chamber and a bubble.
06:23It's a form of aristocracy.
06:25The king is certain he's the best king because everyone around him tells him he's the best
06:29king because people who don't tell him he's the best king don't last very long around
06:32him, either in terms of location or longevity.
06:39So, even if you believe something to be true, if you confidently proclaim, particularly in
06:44public, something that you believe to be true, but you have not researched the counter
06:51evidence, then you are lying.
06:54And this is true, of course, of people who repeat other people's lies, right, without
07:00checking them.
07:01Somebody says, oh, Bob's a murderer, and somebody else says, yeah, yeah, Bob's a murderer, and
07:05they haven't checked it, then they're lying, even though they may truly believe that Bob
07:10is a murderer because someone said it, right?
07:12They're still lying.
07:13When you tell your children that Santa Claus is real, you're lying.
07:18When you tell your children that the tooth fairy is real, you are lying.
07:23So, you may say it's to preserve the magic of childhood or something like that, but you're
07:29lying.
07:30You're lying.
07:31Now, lying is the initiation of falsehood.
07:38Lying is the initiation of falsehood.
07:40So, the analogy here is self-defense.
07:44So, if somebody runs at you with a chainsaw, you can shoot them.
07:49I'm going to cut you and run at you with a chainsaw, you can shoot them.
07:52In fact, you probably should, right?
07:55So, that is self-defense.
07:59Is shooting someone violent?
08:00Sure.
08:01Is it self-defense?
08:02Yes.
08:03Causing someone physical harm is not violence.
08:05I mean, it happens when you get surgery, right?
08:08So, violence, the criminal violence, is the initiation of the use of force.
08:15The force that you use in self-defense is not evil.
08:20In fact, I think it's pretty good.
08:22So, in the same way, if somebody lies to you, you are no longer obligated to tell the
08:30truth in return, in the same way that if somebody initiates the use of force against you, you
08:35are not obligated to be pacifist in return.
08:39I don't feel any moral obligation to tell the truth to compulsive liars.
08:45And so, to take an example that is often quoted in the annals of philosophy, if someone, you
08:53know, bangs on your door and says, where's your wife?
08:56I want to kill her.
08:57And you know where she is.
08:59What do you do?
09:01Well, this person is threatening your wife's life, which is a crime.
09:06To believably say, I want to kill someone, I'm going to kill someone, is a death threat,
09:12and that's illegal and immoral.
09:15So, do you tell the guy who wants to kill your wife where your wife is?
09:20Now, Immanuel Kant says, well, yes, yes, you have to tell them because lying is good in
09:24and of itself and blah, blah, blah, right?
09:25I don't say that at all.
09:27In the same way, if you said, well, using force is always wrong, therefore, if someone
09:31stabs you, you can give them a stern lecture, but you can't use force to defend yourself.
09:36Well, I think that's ridiculous.
09:38I mean, I know ridiculous is not an argument.
09:39I've gone through the whole arguments for self-defense in my free book, Universally
09:44Preferable Behavior, a Rational Proof of Secular Ethics, but you are not obligated to tell the
09:52truth to people who are lying to you.
09:55So, for instance, if someone steals something of yours and the best and easiest way for you
10:05to get that object back is to lie, there's nothing wrong with that lying.
10:11So, let's say some kid steals your bike and the easiest way for you to get it back is to
10:18say, oh, your kid asked me to fix the bike and I'm going to fix his bike and then return
10:23it and then that gets you the bike back in your possession.
10:26That's fine.
10:27I have no problem with that at all.
10:30Lying is not as bad as stealing, right?
10:36And stealing is usually not as bad as physical violence.
10:40Your person is more important than your property and therefore violence against your person
10:46is worse than, usually, is worse than stealing.
10:51And this is something that I constantly reiterate, that morality is not a set of absolutes.
10:58Morality is a relationship to other moral people.
11:02If you've known a guy for 20 years in business and he always keeps his word and he always pays
11:07on time and he always keeps his contracts and so on, then you can probably do a handshake
11:12deal.
11:13However, if it's someone maybe from a different culture, different language, whatever, you
11:17don't know much about them, you've heard shady things, then you're probably going to require,
11:21if you're going to do business at all, a pretty ironclad contract.
11:24In other words, somebody who's moral and has a consistent and personally verified by you
11:30record of morality, well, that person gets special positive considerations in that you can
11:35just do a handshake, a deal.
11:39And somebody who's immoral, you may not choose to do a deal with at all, or if for some reason
11:45you really need to, you're going to make a very tight and ironclad contract and so on
11:49and make sure that if they don't obey it, bad things are going to happen, all that kind
11:52of stuff, right?
11:53So, lying is like force.
11:57It's wrong to initiate it.
11:59It is not to respond with it.
12:00It is wrong to initiate force.
12:03It is fine to use force in self-defense.
12:07It is wrong to initiate falsehood.
12:09It is fine to lie in return.
12:12If someone lies to you and steals your property, it is fine to lie to them to get it back because
12:21they have initiated lying.
12:24And for you, lying to restore your property is not immoral because it's returning your
12:29property to a state of just ownership.
12:32In the same way that somebody wants to stab you and you shoot them, you are not doing anything
12:38other than keeping your body in a state of health, of not-stabbedness.
12:44You're not gaining something.
12:45You're just not losing something.
12:47Somebody who threatens to stab you to get your wallet is gaining your wallet.
12:51If you shoot them because they're about to stab you for your wallet, then you have not gained
12:58anything.
12:58You've simply kept your wallet.
13:00You're maintaining your ownership in its prior state.
13:04So, lying is negative if you initiate it.
13:11It is not negative if you respond to it.
13:15If somebody says, when are you going to be home so that I can beat you up?
13:20It is totally fine to say, I'm just about to go on a year-long vacation.
13:27But that's a lie, right?
13:29But the person who is threatening you does not deserve the truth from you.
13:34Truth, honesty, integrity is a relationship, just as non-violence is a relationship.
13:40Non-violence is for the non-violent.
13:43Non-violence is not for the violent.
13:45So, we look at lying and say, can lying ever be universally preferable behavior?
13:54Can everyone lie all the time?
13:59Can everyone want to lie and be lied to?
14:02Because lying is a relationship thing.
14:04I guess you can lie to yourself, but it's sort of impossible to verify.
14:07So, can everyone want to lie and be lied to for all time, under all circumstances, no matter what?
14:18Well, no.
14:18It doesn't pass the coma test, because a person, a man in a coma, can't lie.
14:22It can't really be lied to.
14:24And also, if you want to be lied to, is it a lie?
14:30Let's take a silly example of role-playing, right?
14:35It could be sexual or some other thing, right?
14:37If you want to be lied to, is it a lie?
14:40So, for instance, it is illegal to imitate a police officer.
14:45However, if you hire a stripper who comes in Danny DeVito style as a police officer, pretending to be a police officer, is that a lie?
14:56Well, no.
14:57You know he's not a police officer.
14:58You know it's not really a lie, because he's not genuinely claiming to be a police officer, because they generally don't strip and shake their moneymakers.
15:08So, is it a lie if you know it's a lie and you prefer the lie?
15:13I mean, when you go and see a play on stage, that's not really Hedda Gabler.
15:17That isn't really England.
15:20That isn't really Middle-Earth.
15:21That isn't really Frodo.
15:23That's not really a dragon, right?
15:24I mean, you know that, right?
15:26Those aren't real dinosaurs in Jurassic Park, volume 4000.
15:31So, you know that it's a lie.
15:34Is it a lie?
15:35No.
15:36When you read a novel, like I'm writing a novel at the moment, people who never existed, thoughts that were never recorded, I'm writing down as if they're true.
15:44Now, of course, I'm not claiming it's a documentary at all.
15:47So, it's not a lie if you know that it's a lie and you accept it as a lie.
15:55Let's say that you know your spouse is planning a surprise party, but they really want to have the surprise party, and so you pretend that you don't know that there's a surprise party, and then you, oh, wow, whatever, right?
16:11It's fun for everyone.
16:12It's not a problem.
16:13This is not a big bad thing.
16:16So, they say, were you surprised?
16:17Oh, yes, you know, that was wild.
16:19I had no idea, blah, blah, blah, right?
16:20That's delightful.
16:21That's fun, and whatever, right?
16:23Now, the other person doesn't know that you're lying, but you know, right, when your spouse says, oh, I'm just kind of tired.
16:29Let's just stop past this restaurant and grab something to go on the way, and then you know there's like 50 people there who all want to wish you happy birthday or whatever it is.
16:38That's a surprise party.
16:40So, you know they're lying, but it's fun, and it's not a problem.
16:43It's not negative, right?
16:45So, is it possible for lying to be universally preferable behavior, for everyone to want to lie and be lied to at the same time?
16:57Well, no, because if you know everyone's lying, then they can't lie to you.
17:01A lie requires that you believe it.
17:04So, it is impossible for lying to be universally preferable behavior.
17:07It is also impossible for telling the truth to be universally preferable behavior,
17:13because telling the truth is a positive action, and doesn't pass the coma test.
17:20Can everyone want to tell and be told the truth at the same time?
17:24No, no, because you can't both give and receive the truth at the same time.
17:30It would be like saying, giving everyone all your property is universally preferable behavior.
17:37Well, because everyone would be giving you their property, you'd be giving them your property,
17:41and it would all cancel out, and it's impossible to do that, and then you've got to go to sleep, or you're not doing that.
17:47So, telling the truth is not universally preferable behavior.
17:53Now, not lying.
17:56Can everyone not lie at the same time?
18:01Yes.
18:02In the same way that giving people property can't be universally preferable behavior,
18:06but not stealing can be universally preferable behavior.
18:10So, not lying can be universally preferable behavior.
18:14Can everyone not lie at the same time?
18:17Well, it passes the coma test, in that the guy who's in the coma is not lying,
18:20and it is possible for everyone to not lie.
18:24This is why negative behavior is UPB.
18:27Thou shalt not.
18:28Rape, steal, assault, murder.
18:31Thou shalt not.
18:32It's fine.
18:33That could be universalized.
18:34Thou shalt cannot be universalized.
18:36It fails the coma test, and it's impossible to achieve at all times and under all circumstances for all people.
18:42It is possible for everyone to not lie.
18:44It passes the coma test.
18:45It is not possible for everyone to tell the truth at all times.
18:49And what would that even mean?
18:50I mean, I'm telling you the truth about lying.
18:53I'm not telling you the truth that I'm a little bit hungry.
18:56And I'm delayed.
18:58I had an appointment, but I forgot something.
19:00I have to go back.
19:01So, I'm not telling you all.
19:02Oh, I guess I did now.
19:03But, I mean, so I'm withholding from you the reason why this podcast is even occurring and the fact that I'm hungry.
19:11But then when I'm telling you that I'm hungry, I'm not telling you the truth about lying, so it's impossible.
19:15You can't tell the truth about everything at all times and all circumstances.
19:18That's not.
19:18But I cannot lie.
19:20Everyone cannot lie.
19:21So, lying in its immoral state is when someone tells you something that is false that you believe to be true that has a negative impact on you.
19:35And this may sound like more and more caveats and more and more complication, but it's really not.
19:41So, if you choke on something and the only way you can be saved is an emergency tracheotomy, then hopefully there's a surgeon around with a sharp knife who can do it, right?
19:52You need that.
19:54So, he's stabbing you, but it is something that you approve of.
19:59I mean, you can't give your approval then, but it's reasonable to expect that you would give your proof down the road, right?
20:05You can give your approval retroactively, right?
20:10So, in the same way, if you know that your girlfriend has planned a surprise party for you, then you know she's lying to you, but it does not have a harmful impact or effect upon you.
20:23In fact, it's probably quite delightful.
20:25And that, of course, is the argument for telling kids about Santa Claus, that it gives them a positive response.
20:30It makes their life better and more magical, and therefore, it's not bad.
20:37Now, the perception of harm is fairly important because somebody can harm you and you approve of it, right?
20:45If you're into spanking or, I don't know, hot wax on the nipples or some weird kink like that, you might, in fact, pay people to do that to you.
20:52Or hit you with a ping-pong paddle in the nads or whatever.
20:55Not you particularly, but that guy right behind you is into you.
20:59There are other times where you might be harmed by someone's actions and appreciative of them, not just the tracheotomy example.
21:05But if somebody, you know, whips out a gun and shoots over your shoulder, this could damage your ear.
21:11But if a killer was just about to stab you, then you'd be grateful because you'll take the ear damage over the being stabbed or whatever, right?
21:19So, there has to be a subjective perception of harm that manifests in moral action.
21:26Because there's the moral theory and then there's the moral practice, right?
21:29There is the physics and then there's the engineering, right?
21:33The physics is equations.
21:34The engineering is building the actual bridge.
21:36Now, of course, engineers can't ignore physics, but physicists don't have to build things.
21:40So, we can say, well, what about if somebody is harmed, but they don't realize that they're harmed?
21:47Well, it doesn't matter then, really, because it's never going to show up in any practical manner, right?
21:55So, let's say that someone drops a package on someone's doorstep.
22:01They're away for the day.
22:03And then someone steals that package and the person didn't even know they were stolen from.
22:07The other person never references it or something like that.
22:10Well, was a wrong done?
22:11Sure.
22:12Yeah, absolutely.
22:13Does it have any practical consequence?
22:14Well, no, because the person didn't even know he was stolen from.
22:17And therefore, he has not experienced the subjective process of being harmed, right?
22:23And therefore, he's not going to act to recover property that he doesn't even know is missing, right?
22:29So, there does need to be a subjective experience of harm in order for the wrong to be manifested in any practical, legal, consequentialist kind of way.
22:41So, lying is when somebody says something to you that is false, you believe it to be true, and it causes harm.
22:51And it causes harm.
22:53So, Bernie Madoff told people that he was going to give them these outlandish returns on investment because he was such a great investor and he was investing in all of this stuff.
23:02Well, that was a lie, and Bernie Madoff knew that it was a lie, and people believed it, that it was true, and it caused them harm.
23:11So, that sort of fits into that, right?
23:13And, again, this is the lying thing is directly analogous to the violence thing with sort of one major, major exception.
23:25So, the major exception is the avoidability.
23:30So, rape, theft, assault, and murder, the three major categories, disproven as universally preferable behavior by UPB.
23:38So, why didn't I include lying in that?
23:41Because lying is avoidable, right?
23:47Somebody jumps out of the bushes and punches you in the head, that's not avoidable.
23:52I mean, you could say good neighborhood, bad neighborhood, or whatever, right?
23:55But that specific action is not avoidable.
23:59If a man or a woman is walking in the woods and somebody jumps out and assaults them, steals from them, it's not really avoidable.
24:08You say, oh, well, you could have stayed home.
24:09It's like, yeah, but in the normal course of human behavior, that's not avoidable.
24:14On the other hand, if I know someone wants to fight me at three o'clock in the morning in the local park under the statue, and I go there, well, that's somewhat avoidable.
24:27I mean, maybe I'm getting it over with, or maybe I bring the police or whatever, right?
24:29But that's somewhat avoidable.
24:30So, people who initiate the use of force against you, that's not avoidable.
24:37And that's why you could use force to defend yourself.
24:40So, let's look at a Ponzi scheme versus assault.
24:46So, a guy jumps out from the bushes and beats you up.
24:50Maybe he takes your wallet too.
24:52Okay.
24:54That's not avoidable.
24:56However, somebody says to you, hey, you know, if you give me $1,000, I'll give you $2,000 back within six months.
25:06Man, that's 100% return on investment.
25:08You're never going to get anything that good ever again, blah, blah, blah, right?
25:12Well, is that avoidable?
25:15Sure.
25:15Just don't give him your money.
25:17So, usually, with lying or with fraud, you have to do something in response.
25:25You have to take a positive action with regards to lying.
25:31Somebody lies to you and says, give me $1,000, I'll give you $2,000 back in six months.
25:35You can avoid that.
25:37Don't listen to the person.
25:39Hang up on the person.
25:40Don't give them $1,000.
25:42Right?
25:42That's easy to avoid.
25:45And I'm not blaming the victims here because, you know, con men can be very persuasive.
25:49But what I am saying is that you have to take positive action to participate in the lie.
25:56And that's not the case with regards to rape, theft, assault, and murder, which is why fraud is different from theft.
26:05Because with fraud, you have to voluntarily, although under the duress of falsehood, but in fraud, you have to choose to hand over your property.
26:15In theft, the property is taken without your consent or often without your knowledge.
26:20So, if Bob listens to the Ponzi scheme guy and hands over $1,000, that's a positive action.
26:29If some thief comes in to Bob's house and takes $1,000 from him, that's not a positive action.
26:38Bob has done nothing to positively cause the loss of his $1,000.
26:44Whereas with fraud, you have to sign over the check, you have to deposit the money, you have to do this, that, or the other.
26:51I mean, I remember, I've said this before, but when I was in the business world, because I was a chief technical officer and fairly high up in the food chain, of course, my name and phone number was published.
27:03And so, people would call me all the time trying to sell me stuff.
27:07And I would get people from, you know, skeevy investment companies like,
27:10Hey, man, this stuff's going to triple in six months.
27:12Get in now or it's gone forever.
27:14You know, that kind of stuff, right?
27:16And, I mean, obviously, I am human and I was tempted, but I never did, right?
27:21I never did.
27:22And I remember once when I was, I was scouted a couple of times for modeling as a teenager and one place seemed pretty legit and I gave them a hundred bucks, which was, you know, a lot of money when I was a teenager and, you know, they said they could get me work and so on.
27:40And I remember the skeevy woman, man, I kicked myself in hindsight, but of course, you know, I was still trying to figure out my way in the world, but I gave her a hundred dollars.
27:48She's like, Oh, I lost your check and you give it to me again.
27:50Right. And then I gave her a hundred dollars and she was supposed to get me some modeling work.
27:55She was supposed to get me, I mean, there were other places that didn't want money, but this person seemed a pretty legit, nice office downtown and all of that.
28:05And yeah, she never, never called me, never, never got any work.
28:09She just lost a hundred dollars.
28:11Was that fraudulent?
28:12I think so.
28:13Yeah.
28:13I mean, I think it was fraudulent insofar as she took the money promising me work and when the work didn't materialize,
28:19she never called me and told me why.
28:21Well, it's this, it's that, it's the other, right?
28:23So, yeah, but I still had to voluntarily participate in that transfer of property.
28:32So, it's avoidable and therefore it's not in UPB, it's in APA, aesthetically preferable actions.
28:41Now, if it's contractual, then it's criminal.
28:46So, I didn't have a contract with this woman who ripped me off for the hundred bucks when I was a teenager.
28:52I didn't have a contract with this woman that said, I will get you, you know, four calls or auditions or whatever for modeling work or advertising work or something like that,
29:03that I will get you four of these a month, guaranteed.
29:07Okay, that would be a contract, right?
29:09But if she's like, you know, man, I'll get you these, but she doesn't specify any number or when or time frame or whatever,
29:15is it fraudulent?
29:16Not really.
29:17I mean, that to me is more in the realm of lying than criminal fraud.
29:21And you can't use force against someone who lies to you because it's an avoidable situation, right?
29:32In the same way that if somebody says, I'm coming through town, I've always hated you, I'm going to be at this statue at three o'clock in the morning in the park and let's beat,
29:42I'm going to beat each other up, we're going to beat each other, I'm going to beat you up or whatever.
29:46Well, that's avoidable.
29:47Guy's passing through, he's never coming back, blah, blah, blah, right?
29:50That's avoidable.
29:50And this is why imminent, grievous bodily harm, death or imminent, imminent death or grievous bodily harm, that's the standard for self-defense.
30:00If somebody threatens you, you can use self-defense in the moment, but two days later, you can't hunt them down and shoot them because it's not imminent, right?
30:08It's avoidable.
30:10Now, some of this avoidability stuff is not particularly realistic.
30:14So, for instance, we've all had this sort of stupid situation where there's some bully and what do people say?
30:22Oh, just avoid him.
30:23Well, I mean, you're kind of forced to go to the same schools, right?
30:26You're kind of trapped in the same school situation.
30:28So, that's not really possible in many circumstances.
30:32So, I mean, I did do that with a guy who wanted to beat me up once in school and I just avoided him as best I could and then it all just kind of faded away.
30:41So, lying is in the category of aesthetically negative action, but it's not UPB.
30:52UPB is that which you can use force to prevent.
30:55Somebody wants to stab you, you can shoot them, right?
30:59Somebody is going to rape you, you can stab them or whatever, right?
31:02So, UPB is that which you can use force.
31:04UPB has to be very narrowly focused.
31:06I mean, in consequentialist terms because it authorizes the use of force.
31:10If somebody says, I'm going to be there at 7 and then shows up at 8, can you shoot them?
31:17I mean, instinctively, we know that's not the case.
31:19Like, you can just blow someone away for showing up late, right?
31:22And that's because you chose to have that person in your life.
31:27You chose, sorry to be annoying, you chose, but you chose to have that person in your life.
31:32You chose to have a social meetup.
31:34You chose to stand around and wait.
31:36And we've all had those thoughts, right?
31:38Haven't we?
31:38We've all had those thoughts.
31:40Yeah, when I was in England, I had a friend who was a lot of fun to get together, but was kind of vain.
31:46And so, this was when I was quite little.
31:49And so, I'd say, hey, you know, come over after school.
31:52And he'd show up at like 5 o'clock.
31:55Oh, he's busy, man.
31:57And every time this happened, I was like, I should just go.
32:01Why am I waiting here for like an hour and a half for this guy, for this kid to come by?
32:06I mean, he's fun, but I should just go out.
32:09And eventually, I did, right?
32:11He said, I'll come over after school.
32:13And then, at around 4.15, I just left.
32:18And then he started showing up on time, right?
32:22Everyone's had those fantasies.
32:23Because he says, well, where were you?
32:24And I'm like, I got tired of waiting.
32:26Well, you've always waited before.
32:27And yeah, I got tired of that, too.
32:29If you're going to say, well, technically, it was after school.
32:31It's like, bro, come on.
32:32You know what we're talking about.
32:33You say you're coming to come over after school.
32:35It doesn't mean, you say, can we come off to school Friday?
32:39That doesn't mean you show up Sunday.
32:41Technically, that's after school, because there'd be no school.
32:43Like, no.
32:44You know, show up on time, or I'm not going to stick around, right?
32:47And, you know, things got better after that.
32:49Sort of a lesson, everyone.
32:50So, but nobody forced me to sit in my little flat for an hour and a half waiting for this kid to show up.
32:57Nobody.
32:57Nobody forced me to set up social engagements with him or play time with him.
33:00Nobody forced me to stick around.
33:02Nothing.
33:03So, I can't use force against him, because he wasn't using force against me.
33:09So, again, contract-based fraud is a form of theft, and that's a different matter.
33:16But if there's no contract, then lying is aesthetically negative.
33:23It's an aesthetically negative action, because it has to be an action, behavior and action.
33:26You can't moralize about what's in people's minds.
33:28That's thought crime, and that's imaginary.
33:31But when it comes to lying, lying is aesthetically negative.
33:39And also, it's not evil in and of itself.
33:43Something like rape, obviously, is evil in and of itself.
33:47However, if you're waiting for someone to show up at 7, and they show up at 8, and they
33:53have a great excuse, you know, I was driving along, someone ran a red and sideswiped me,
33:58and I had to deal with the accident, your annoyance at them being late would turn to sympathy and
34:02wanting to find out if they're okay.
34:05And, you know, you might even buy them dinner, because they've obviously had a difficult day.
34:08And so, you go from annoyance to sympathetic, right?
34:11So, the being late is not wrong in and of itself, in that there can be very good reasons
34:16for being late.
34:17I was kidnapped.
34:19I had to chew my way through the cables and escape from the trunk of the car.
34:23Okay, that's, I would say that's acceptable.
34:25Might not be someone you want to hang around with in the long run, but, I mean, that's acceptable,
34:30right?
34:30So, aesthetically, negative actions are not wrong in and of themselves, because there are,
34:37there can be completely legitimate excuses.
34:40I remember working with someone once who showed up late quite consistently, and he always said,
34:48car trouble, and at some point, the CEO said, fix your car, get a fix or get a new car,
34:54because the excuse became ridiculous, right?
34:57You can't have car trouble twice a week for two months.
35:00Like, you, you are then, it is incumbent upon you to get a new car, right?
35:05Whereas, if you have a new car, and it just doesn't start for whatever reason, blah, blah, blah,
35:09okay, that's understandable, right?
35:11So, there are actions that are evil in and of themselves, murder, rape, theft, assault,
35:17and then there are actions that are negative, but have perfectly legitimate excuses.
35:23Being late, being rude, even being rude, can have a legitimate excuse.
35:29In that someone, like, if you're just rude to someone, and you call them a fat, lazy pig, or whatever,
35:35well, maybe this person has told your wife that you were having an affair when you weren't,
35:38and caused a huge amount of trouble in your marriage, and, right, in which case, we'd say,
35:41well, I can understand why you'd be angry, right?
35:43So, there's excuses, right?
35:44There's no excuse for rape, theft, assault, and murder, but there are, I know, you say,
35:48well, but what about if you're starving, you steal a loaf of bread?
35:50Well, that's not theft if the person approves of it after the fact.
35:54It's not theft if the person approves of it after the fact, and most people would rather
35:57give up a loaf of bread than have someone starve to death in front of their store,
36:02because they'll actually end up losing more money because of that, because people don't want
36:04to step over a dead body to get to a store.
36:06Even if we just say there's no compassion and only economic calculation of utility,
36:10that's not, he's better off giving the guy a loaf of bread than having him die, right?
36:16So, lying is aesthetically negative behavior.
36:20Lying follows all of the same patterns as self-defense, with the significant exception
36:26that you can avoid the effects of the initiation of lying.
36:32You cannot avoid the effects of the initiation of force.
36:35I mean, I know that this is debated, right?
36:37Whether it is stand your ground or not, right?
36:39So, stand your ground in general, again, not legal advice, but stand your ground is you
36:44have no duty to retreat.
36:45Someone breaks into your house, even if you could escape through the back door, you have
36:48no duty to retreat.
36:50Whereas in other places, you do have a duty to retreat, and if you could reasonably escape
36:54the violence, then you are responsible, morally responsible, I guess legally responsible for
36:59the violence of self-defense.
37:01Whereas in other states, you don't have the duty to retreat, and so on, right?
37:04So, if some guy is, you know, pushing you in the chest, and you could just leave the bar,
37:10but instead, you know, you clock him and break his jaw and knock out four teeth, well, those
37:15are interesting questions, and those are implementation questions.
37:20They're not moral principle questions.
37:22Self-defense is morally legitimate.
37:25There are gray areas in self-defense that are adjudicated by courts, right?
37:30Black and white are different colors.
37:33There are shades of gray that need to be adjudicated in other contexts, right?
37:40So, lying is aesthetically negative, but it's avoidable, and there can be excuses, right?
37:47The example I've given before is, some guy's been in a terrible car crash.
37:51He's dying.
37:52He can't be saved, and his wife and kid are dead in the back seat, and he says, are my
37:59wife and kid okay?
38:00I personally would say to him, they're totally fine.
38:03They're in the ambulance.
38:04Help is coming.
38:05Be at peace.
38:06I'd hold his hand.
38:07Don't worry.
38:08You're going to be fine, and let him die with some peace.
38:10I wouldn't sit there as his eyes are fading, and his life is leaving his body saying, oh,
38:15yeah, they're totally dead.
38:16Yeah, they died.
38:18And you're going to die, too.
38:19But I personally would ease the passage somewhat.
38:23And I don't think people would say, oh, my God, you're such a filthy liar.
38:27How awful.
38:27That's fraudulent.
38:28His ghost should sue you, or something like that, right?
38:31I mean, that's not...
38:32So, we can all think of situations where lying is reasonable and good and fine, and that's
38:42similar to how we can also see that violence is good and right and fine, right, if it's
38:47self-defense.
38:49Or, even if it's not self-defense, if somebody does an emergency tracheotomy or something,
38:54even without the person's permission, that is, harming the person against their chosen,
39:00against their express wishes.
39:02They haven't expressed their wish that you do it because they're choking, but you can
39:05reasonably expect to get their permission after the fact and so on, right?
39:09So, the philosophy of lying is that it falls squarely into aesthetically negative action.
39:14Again, I don't count fraud, because that is lying with contract for the purpose of stealing.
39:18But lying is avoidable in the same way that if someone is always late, you can avoid that
39:23by simply not being friends with that person, by not hanging around if they're late, and,
39:30you know, negotiating with them to understand how annoying it is when they're late all the
39:34time, and all of that.
39:36So, you can do all of that.
39:38It's avoidable.
39:39The people who wanted to sell me stocks when I was a chief technical officer in the business
39:44world, were they lying about, this is the greatest stock ever, and it's going to triple?
39:50Well, to some degree, nobody knows for sure something's going to triple.
39:53Was it a pump and dump?
39:54I don't know.
39:55Probably.
39:56We just talk up, you just talk up the stock to get people to buy it, and then the people
40:00you talked up early are the ones who get all of the benefit, and the people you talk
40:04up late, don't, but it was avoidable.
40:08It wasn't like they were guaranteeing me, oh, I'm going to put it in writing, man, I'll
40:11put it in writing, 300% return in six months.
40:14I'll put it in writing.
40:15Well, they weren't going to do that, right?
40:17Say, well, best guess, right?
40:18I can't guarantee, right?
40:20So, I had to participate in that, and they, I think, were lying.
40:27I mean, I know that they were lying because nobody knows the future price of a stock, certainly
40:30not six months out, and they certainly can't guarantee triple returns, so that's a lie.
40:36But I'm sure that they hedged, because, of course, I can't remember these conversations
40:38from over 30 years ago, but, you know, I'm sure they hedged, it looks like it's on the
40:41track, too, right?
40:43Indications are, you know, our best guess is estimates predict, right?
40:48Not idiots, right?
40:49But, yeah, you have to participate in lying in the same way, in a way that you don't participate
40:57or choose in situations of violence.
41:02And so, that's why I've put lying in the category of aesthetically negative actions.
41:07Lying and truth-telling is a relationship.
41:10You owe the truth to those who tell you the truth in terms of basic justice and reciprocity,
41:15and you don't owe the truth to people who lie to you.
41:20And if people aren't giving you contractual obligations, it requires your participation
41:27to hand over goods, time, money, and resources as a result of, perhaps, overpromising, and
41:35so on.
41:36So, no, given that you don't owe the truth to people who tell you lies any more than you
41:41owe non-violence to those who are initiating the use of violence, that solves that problem
41:46of, where's your wife?
41:48I want to kill her.
41:49I don't know.
41:50I don't know.
41:51All right, solve that.
41:53And the fact that lying can be or is a valid form of self-defense against falsehood, that's
42:02fine, too.
42:03So, we solve the Kantian problem, and we also hook into or utilize our understanding of self-defense
42:12to further process and understand how lying ties into that, and how it's perfectly valid
42:20to lie in response to restore your property to people who are lying to you already, and
42:26I hope that that helps you understand the moral philosophy of lying.
42:29Lying can never be UPB.
42:31UpB, telling the truth, can never be UPB, but not lying can be UPB.
42:37However, because nobody forces you to participate in lies, it is not something that you can use
42:44violence in response to, right?
42:46So, these guys were like, oh, analysts say that, you know, it's going to triple in value,
42:50blah, blah, blah, right?
42:51Well, that's not a guarantee.
42:53I have to voluntarily hand over my money, and therefore, I cannot use force.
42:57Uh, if, if the promised payouts don't come to pass.
43:02So, yeah, that's the philosophy of lying.
43:04I hope that's helpful to you.
43:05FreeDomain.com slash donate.
43:07Really would appreciate your support.
43:09Lots of love from up here, my friends.
43:10I'll talk to you soon.
43:11Bye.
Recommended
43:59
|
Up next
1:08:44
51:54
2:28:37
1:40:01
1:42:08
2:24:50
1:49:13
1:49:26
1:47:57
51:34
25:58
5:13
1:18:38
1:29:47
1:44:13
1:40:23
37:01
15:47
36:45
1:41:57
46:14
29:57
12:08