- 8 months ago
The big talking point of this episode of News Today is the Operation Sindoor debate in Parliament. The Lok Sabha witnessed an intense debate over Operation Sindoor and the Pahalgam terror attack, with the government and opposition clashing on key national security issues.
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00:00Good evening, hello and welcome. You're with the news today, your prime time destination news.
00:05Newsmakers, talking points are big talking point. The Operation Sindhur debate in Parliament.
00:11Narendra Modi's attacks on the Congress hit or miss because remember, this was a no-holds-barred attack by the Prime Minister.
00:20Who won the war of narratives between Modi and the Gandhis?
00:24Modi Shah vs. Rahul Gandhi and Priyanka Gandhi-Bhadra. We'll bring you excerpts from those speeches and then decode them with experts.
00:34But first, as always, it's time this Tuesday night for the Nine Headlines.
00:40Prime Minister's nearly two-hour hit back on Operation Sindhur in the Lok Sabha slams the Congress for questioning the ceasefire.
00:51Asks, why is the opposition importing Pakistan's agenda to India?
00:59Rahul Gandhi also launches a scathing attack on the Prime Minister.
01:03Dares Modi to call up Trump a liar over the ceasefire credit claim.
01:08Prime Minister insists no global leader influenced the ceasefire decision.
01:14Hails the valor of security forces.
01:16Congress MP Priyanka Gandhi-Bhadra calls for Home Minister Shah's resignation over the intel failure that led to the Pahalgam terror attack.
01:28Shah says UPA only sent dossiers to Pakistan despite 27 terror attacks.
01:34The Modi government has acted.
01:36The Pahalgam butchers are avenged.
01:42Three terrorists killed near Srinagar.
01:45Yesterday, were Pahalgam terrorists recovered weapons match bullets used in the April 22nd massacre?
01:54Are decks being cleared for One Nation, One election speculation mounts after key meeting announced for tomorrow, 3pm?
02:02War of words over India playing against Pakistan in Asia Cup intensifies.
02:12Pakistan to benefit in India doesn't play Asia Cup.
02:15Sources say India did not want to give Pakistan a walkover.
02:19It's Gautam Gambhi vs. the Oval Chief Pitch Curator.
02:26Gambhi is seen in a verbal fight with the curator.
02:29Batting coach Sitanshu Kotak has to step in to douse the fire.
02:37Donald Trump calls London's Mayor Sadiq Khan a nasty person.
02:41Blames him for a poor job on action against terror.
02:47UK Prime Minister Keir Starmer defends Sadiq.
02:51An eminent economist and public intellectual, Lord Meghna Desai passes away at 85.
02:59The former Labour politician and House of Lords member was battling prolonged illness.
03:04But our top story tonight, it has been a no-holds-barred battle between the Modi government and the opposition today in the Lok Sabha.
03:18In particular, between Prime Minister Modi and Home Minister Amit Shah on one side
03:23and the Gandhi family duo of Rahul Gandhi and Priyanka Gandhi-Wadra on the other.
03:30Over the next 45 minutes, we will decode the big speeches that were made in Parliament
03:34between these two major players, who scored, who did not in that big debate.
03:41That's going to be our top focus at the moment.
03:44But first, let's look at what they said.
03:48Before that, I want to introduce the guests who will take me slowly but surely
03:53through each and every one of these soundbites.
03:56With me in the studio is Raj Chengappa, our Editorial Director at India Today.
04:02He's seen many a Parliament debate.
04:04Welcome, Raj.
04:05Ashok Malik, partner of the Asia Group, senior journalist who's tracked Prime Minister Modi in particular for years.
04:11And Ashutosh, columnist, author and political analyst,
04:14who also has a very close eye on all that happens in the political world.
04:20But first, as I said, we're going to decode one by one all the major strands of this big battle
04:26between Modi Shah and the Gandhi family.
04:30The first big question was, Donald Trump's truce claim, has it been finally settled?
04:36Time and again, Donald Trump has raised the issue that he was the one who initiated a ceasefire between India and Pakistan.
04:43Let's listen in to what Prime Minister Modi and the LOP Rahul Gandhi had to say
04:48on the T-factor, not terror, but Trump.
04:51There has been HIV, justforce him.
05:11India!
05:12India!
05:17India!
05:17India!
05:18India!
05:18India!
05:19India!
05:20India!
05:20India!
05:20India!
05:21India!
05:21in
05:26the
05:30the
05:32the
05:34the
05:35the
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05:44I felt that he was trying to do it for hours, but I went to my senator's meeting, so I didn't get his phone.
05:56After that, I had a call back. I said that your phone was three or four times.
06:03What is your phone?
06:05So, the President of the United States told me that Pakistan is a very big attack.
06:18Can you tell me?
06:20My answer was my answer.
06:26Those who don't understand, they don't come.
06:30My answer was my answer.
06:37If Pakistan is a right, then it will be very expensive.
06:47If Pakistan is a right, then we will have a big attack.
07:04If Pakistan is a right, then we will have a big attack.
07:05If Pakistan is a right, then we will have a big attack.
07:09If Pakistan is a right, then we will have a big attack.
07:10If Pakistan is a right, then we will have a big attack.
07:14If Pakistan is a right, we will have a big attack.
07:17Namaste is a right.
07:19I have a serious attack.
07:23Time is and 10am and 10am,
07:31I have to have Richard Kerry and�裸 Wade بع Sydney.
07:36And this was my answer, this was my judgment.
07:41And today, Pakistan has also known that every answer of every question before.
07:58Donald Trump has said 29 times, 29 times he said,
08:0829 times he said, I have seized fire.
08:12Okay, if they are talking nonsense,
08:17then the Prime Minister will say that they are talking nonsense.
08:21If he has the courage, if he has the courage,
08:36if he has the courage of Indira Gandhi,
08:39let him say here, let him say here,
08:43that Donald Trump, you're a liar,
08:48that you did not make a ceasefire,
08:52and that we did not lose any planes.
08:54Let him say it here, if he has the courage.
08:58The Trump factor, as I call it, hasn't been settled.
09:01Raj Chengappa, hearing both sides,
09:03do you get a sense that has the Prime Minister been conclusively able to settle the issue
09:08that Donald Trump was not the one who initiated and ensured a ceasefire between India and Pakistan?
09:15Rajdeep, I thought he was being careful because India is engaged in a major possible trade deal with the U.S.
09:24and would like to keep its good relations with the U.S.
09:27and rather than go directly and call President Trump a liar, as Rahul Gandhi wanted him to.
09:33So he kind of said that no leader has made any effort or no leader actually wanted him to stop the war,
09:44or he didn't listen to any of them.
09:46And he pointed to once.
09:48But I think here, if you look at the facts,
09:51one is that Trump has repeated this as Rahul Gandhi said 25 times.
09:56And secondly, there is a conversation which I think that the opposition didn't really take into press home,
10:07which is the fact that Marco Rubio, after Trump had tweeted on May 10th that the ceasefire would be there,
10:13came out with a statement saying that he had spoken to Jay Shankar, the Foreign Minister,
10:17as well as the Pakistan counterparts, and said that the two sides had agreed to meet at a neutral place and discuss all issues.
10:26Now, you know, one of the things that we must keep in mind is Marco Rubio is one of Trump's most trusted cabinet ministers.
10:34He's also the National Security Advisor.
10:36And J.D. Vance is also the Vice President, again, very trusted.
10:40So Trump did have a role to play because there were conversations going on.
10:44We've heard what Prime Minister Modi said about what Vance had said,
10:48but Rubio was the critical point in terms of the May 10th conversations.
10:53That's the night.
10:54Early that morning, India bombs many air bases across, I think eight or nine of them in Pakistan.
11:00And there's a flurry of conversations that happens over there.
11:04And that's what is really the point, is that Marco Rubio would not have made that statement
11:09unless there was some conversation to that effect with both the countries.
11:14And that has not yet been sorted out, as is the fact that Trump will say that,
11:18look, my representatives dealt directly with India, and therefore they were taking my orders,
11:23and that means that I was involved.
11:25You know, Ashok Malit, taking off from what Raj Chendapa just said,
11:29the Prime Minister made it clear that he had no conversation with Donald Trump.
11:34He, however, admitted to having a conversation with Mr. Vance, and as Raj has pointed out,
11:40Marco Rubio has gone on record to say that he spoke to the external affairs ministers of the two countries.
11:45Would it be therefore fair to say that America played a crucial behind the scenes role in dousing the fires between India and Pakistan?
11:55Would that be a far more honest statement to make?
11:58And perhaps rather than call someone a liar or get into that kind of language,
12:03would it just say that yes, America played a crucial role in bringing the two sides to a ceasefire?
12:10Look, Rajdeep, as far as I know, three countries were closely involved in carrying messages between New Delhi and Islamabad,
12:19primarily from New Delhi to Islamabad.
12:22These were the US, Saudi Arabia, and the UAE.
12:27And I imagine the governments or foreign ministers of all three countries were speaking to both sides.
12:32That is my understanding.
12:34And to all of them, India's word was fairly consistent.
12:39We will fire the last bullet, as it were.
12:42So if Pakistan attacks, as it did in Behlgaan through the terrorists, we will hit back.
12:47If there's a counter-strike by Pakistan, there will be a further counter-strike by us,
12:52which is what the Prime Minister also said in Parliament, that we will goli ka jawa, gola se, or we will fire the last bullet.
12:59But we do not want this to escalate.
13:01So if you stop escalating, we will stop escalating.
13:05This was something which was consistently said diplomatically and conveyed diplomatically
13:10to almost any country that spoke to Minister Jai Shankar or the Indian government,
13:15or the Indian Foreign Secretary for that matter, in that period.
13:19And I understand these three countries, the U.S., Saudi Arabia, and UAE,
13:25passed on that message to the Pakistanis and got back to the Indians.
13:30So that is a fair assessment of what happened.
13:33So why should the Prime Minister then not exactly say what you said?
13:38Yes, there were other countries who helped out in bringing the two sides together.
13:42Would that be seen as a sign of weakness to even admit that?
13:46I don't think they helped out. They just, they simply carried India's message.
13:51They said, look, the Indians are telling us if you don't escalate, they will not escalate.
13:54Their purpose was to attack the terror camps. They've done that.
13:58And that is frankly something which we were, as Indians, the Indian government was saying to every diplomatic interlocutor.
14:05Even the Pakistanis were told that. So they knew that.
14:08Okay.
14:09Yes.
14:10I wanted to make a point in the sense that let's be clear, the U.S. was the main interlocutor in this particular case.
14:16Saudi would have played some role, UAE would have, but it is the U.S. that matters the most.
14:21And this is, of course, very true of the track record. If you look at 2019, the U.S. certainly played a role in calming temperatures as it were, you know, began to escalate beyond or get out of control.
14:33And you remember, I think the Prime Minister mentioned Abhinandan.
14:36A lot of the pressure that was built to return Abhinandan back was built, I think, if I recall, with a lot of conversations that the U.S. had.
14:43You go back a little further and you look at 2000, I mean, go right back.
14:47We can go to 1999, Kargil and the role that Bill Clinton played.
14:51Kargil, you remember that?
14:52And the role that Clinton played. And in fact, when I interviewed Nawaz Sharif, he told me the first thing Clinton told him just before the settlement.
14:59I'd interviewed Nawaz Sharif in Jeddah, of course, much later. And he said, the first thing Clinton asked him is, Nawaz Sharif, are you taking the subcontinent to a nuclear war?
15:08And that was a concern that continues, of course, now. And 2008, again, after the Mumbai attacks, the U.S. did play a role in calming down things so that India would not attack Pakistan and gave certain assurances that was there.
15:21So I would not be surprised if a lot of the conversation that happened here were on similar lines in terms of saying…
15:28So what stops the Prime Minister from saying that? Is it that it would be seen as a sign of weakness, Raj?
15:33Again, you know, these are things that happen a lot behind the scenes. How much of that pressure came on? What were the kind of…
15:39It wouldn't be like, stop the war. It would be, I think, in many senses, a dialogue that will happen will say, look, if you proceed with this,
15:46your objectives was to demonstrate that you will cut the head of the snake when it comes to terror, you know, camps and terror hideouts and everything else.
15:55Your objective is not war. And so, therefore, if you proceed down that line, Pakistan, you've already proved your point.
16:01And to Pakistan, they would say, look, where do you want to go on this?
16:05If you start escalating and sending your missiles across after India, send BrahMos, then it's going to be an all-out war.
16:11Is that what you want? And I think that's the kind of conversation that happens behind the scenes.
16:15It's not like each side loses a thing. I mean, these are very tense scenes that are happening.
16:20Point well taken. Given what you've just said, Ashutosh, therefore, for Rahul Gandhi, in turn, to say, you know,
16:26prove that, tell us in Parliament, is Donald Trump lying?
16:30I mean, which Prime Minister is going to sit in our Parliament and call Donald Trump a liar?
16:35I mean, let's be clear. If Rahul Gandhi was also the Prime Minister of the country,
16:40is he going to come in Parliament and call Donald Trump a liar?
16:43Is that what the Congress wants to damage Indo-U.S. relations at a time when sensitive trade talks are on?
16:49Rajdeep, you know and I also know those who are watching Trump and the Modi both.
16:54Anybody who can say anything to the Trump and still can do a business with the Trump.
16:59Look what the Chinese have done. And finally the Americans have come down to the different kind of equation altogether.
17:04So the Trump has to be dealt with a different language altogether.
17:08I think that the language of the diplomacy word over has changed.
17:12That kind of language that Trump is speaking, not only with India, but all the countries, it's not a diplomatic language.
17:18Does Rahul Gandhi seriously believe that an Indian Prime Minister can call the U.S. President a liar in Parliament?
17:25Rajdeep, this has to be understood from a different perspective altogether because he has caught under the skin of the Narendra Modi.
17:34And he has caught Narendra Modi because he wants to project himself as a macho masculine Hindu icon.
17:41Look, somebody like this, if he's projecting himself that he's the biggest icon of the nationalism in the country, nobody can touch him, nobody can say a word to him.
17:51Then here is a president, 28 times he's insulting India.
17:57You don't forget, when Mr. Narendra Modi was in Washington, even at that point of time, the illegally Indians living in America.
18:07How is he insulting India by saying that he...
18:11Rajdeep, let me complete.
18:13It is Indians who were sackled when the Prime Minister was there in Washington.
18:19However, is it not an insult to India?
18:22Mr. Donald Trump is openly talking about that India is a tariff king, saying all kinds of things.
18:28And the Prime Minister projects himself that he's the machoist man ever produced by Indians.
18:34Now, Rahul Gandhi is asking a question to that Prime Minister who takes a great pride in being a macho Hindu icon.
18:44Now, if you project an image like that, then the questions will be asked.
18:49Because then you will be compared with the Iranian Ayatollah Khamenei, who being attacked by the Israeli and Americans, he's giving back to the Trump in the same coin.
18:59Why the Prime Minister cannot say even once, Mr. Trump, you are lying, you are misleading not only to Americans, but also to the whole global audience.
19:07Okay. I do want a quick response and then we'll move on to the next question.
19:11No, no. Let's also give credit to the fact that Prime Minister Modi had moved considerably from strategic restraint that Dr. Manmohan Singh had exercised while he was dealing with Pakistan to punitive deterrence.
19:22And Pahal Gham took that quantum of punishment to a much, much higher level, also demonstrated that India is willing to take on, you know, when two nuclear powers clash, there is a kind of a limit that you need to reach.
19:34And he was pushing the edge of that envelope.
19:36And therefore, his actions in many senses speaks louder than what Donald Trump is saying.
19:42He did go ahead and hit Pakistan hard and clearly they suffered damage.
19:46We might have had some setbacks, but the fact is that we proved a point when it came to the fight.
19:52Yeah, but that didn't stop, Raj, with due regard, that didn't stop Donald Trump from entertaining Field Marshal Asim Munir for lunch, for Rubio from having meetings with the Pakistani foreign minister, for them to claim that Pakistan is a key ally.
20:08So that deterrence question, we'll come back to.
20:10I agree. Yes, we should come back to it because that is something that needs to be debated.
20:14This is, you know, apart from the parliament debate, we need to look ahead a bit and see some of these major things and what are the lessons we might have to learn from that.
20:21Okay, let's come, though, to what was the core, in a way, of the debate that took place today.
20:26Far from it becoming only about Sindur, it became familiar.
20:30Modi government versus Congress opposition.
20:34The Prime Minister's attack on the Congress.
20:37Were they hit or miss?
20:39Listen in.
20:40非.
20:41Standards.
20:42An zakat.
20:43Sure.
20:46The
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24:05Now, Pakistani officers, strategic officers have been embedded in the PLA's western and northern theater commands.
24:16That attack, Ashok Malik, on suggesting that the Congress was voicing Pakistan's viewpoint has been made before,
24:26branding Rahul Gandhi and the Congress as anti-national.
24:30Does it still work according to you, Ashok Malik?
24:32You know, obviously, in a parliamentary debate of this nature, both sides come up with very exaggerated positions.
24:42The BJP did, the Congress also did.
24:45I think there is a broader issue which we need to discuss about our Pakistan policy and where it stands,
24:52what we can hope to achieve, what we can't hope to achieve.
24:55Certainly, there was success before Operation Sindhur because no country held us back from attacking Pakistan,
25:05targeting terror camps in Pakistan.
25:08It was expected we would do that.
25:10It was expected we would respond, but surely, and the Modi government would respond in a measured fashion under the nuclear model.
25:17So, unlike 2008 or 2001 or 2016, no country said, don't do it.
25:26People expected us to do it.
25:27They were confident the Modi government could do it, and the Modi government did do it.
25:31After that, obviously, since two nuclear powers are involved,
25:35countries, other countries had a legitimate interest in seeing that the conflict remained contained.
25:42And they asked questions, which was natural.
25:45So, I don't think neither of those is really a surprise.
25:50As to why other countries have not come out in full-footed support of India after Operation Sindhur,
25:58you know, quite honestly, this is an India-Pakistan terrorism issue which bothers a lot of countries,
26:05but they also have other concerns to think about in a world which is full of challenges.
26:09So, in a sense, this is our battle to fight.
26:12The world will not fight it for us beyond a certain point.
26:15This is our battle to fight.
26:17The fact that China is supportive of Pakistan is also well.
26:20We will have to tackle it.
26:22Okay.
26:23Given what you heard there, Ashutosh, your view,
26:27Prime Minister Modi time and again hit at the Congress saying you are effectively a mouthpiece for Pakistan,
26:34branding all the questions that Rahul Gandhi was asking,
26:37whether it was on jets downed or questions about our military being tied up, according to Rahul Gandhi,
26:45Prime Minister said you are acting as an anti-national and this has been the Congress's history.
26:50Do you think that hit the Congress where it hurts?
26:52See, Rajdeep, for me, Rahul Gandhi today was a revelation
26:58because I heard a very good speech after a very, very long time in the Parliament
27:01and it has become a reality because these days you don't listen to good speech in the Parliament itself.
27:08So, let's give it to Rahul Gandhi.
27:09The fact of the matter is the Prime Minister today, I found him very, very tired.
27:13He was, I found him somewhere down the line, he was a little depressing.
27:19He was a little desperate.
27:20He wanted to give back to Rahul Gandhi the way he was hit by Rahul Gandhi's speech.
27:25But somewhere down the line, he repeated the same story.
27:29It's a Nehru story.
27:30You go back to Nehru, you abuse Nehru, you criticize Nehru
27:33and then you blame the Nehru Gandhi family for everything.
27:35I think it's not working.
27:36It's not working at all.
27:38And that's all the Rahul Gandhi somewhere down the line had gone under his skin.
27:42No, but after Balakot, after Balakot, Pulwama and Balakot in particular,
27:48in the election that happened then, when the Prime Minister said,
27:51Ghar me ghuskar mara, branded the Congress virtually as someone
27:55who wasn't in line with the national sentiment, it succeeded.
27:58Are you saying it isn't succeeding now?
28:01I don't think it is succeeding.
28:03See, the Balakot happened five years back
28:05and it happened in the month of February when the elections were around the corner.
28:08So, anybody would have raised the emotional pitch at that point
28:12of time would have certainly got benefited.
28:14Otherwise, before that elections, before that Balakot,
28:17people were saying that the BJP will find it difficult to get the 272 seats.
28:22But today, what I am trying to tell you is
28:24that I was really surprised that Prime Minister did not speak a word about China.
28:29And Rahul Gandhi, let's give him to Rahul Gandhi a few months back
28:32in this parliament itself.
28:33He's talked about it.
28:35The biggest challenge to the Indian diplomacy
28:36is that to separate Pakistan and the China both.
28:39And today, what is happening is, what is surprising me is
28:42that we are allowing Chinese to get their visa in.
28:48When the Chinese are trying to dislocate our economy,
28:52he's withdrawing their ingenious.
28:55He's trying to restrict the export of the rare earth magnet.
29:00He's trying to restrict the export of the specialized fertilizers.
29:04When the Chinese are doing something like this,
29:06and here, those people used to say that the elephant...
29:10Let me hold on, because Raj Chengap,
29:13while the Prime Minister attacked Rahul Gandhi on the Pakistan question,
29:19I've just heard Rahul Gandhi's comment outside parliament
29:22after the Prime Minister's speech saying
29:23he didn't mention the C word China even once.
29:27Do you believe that China remains the real elephant in the room,
29:31which neither side, or certainly not the government of the day,
29:34is willing to openly confront?
29:37Well, the interpretation I get, I'm reading between the lines,
29:40is that the reason why the government didn't press the China case,
29:44although it knows pretty well that they had backed Pakistan
29:47during the Operation Sindhur and the war that happened,
29:51is that they are in a process of rapprochement,
29:54in some senses, with China.
29:55And therefore, they wouldn't like that part of the relations
30:00to get somewhat, again, into muddy waters.
30:03It has been in the past four, five years.
30:05And I think the reason also is what Rahul Gandhi had hinted,
30:09where he said, look, you have to sort of keep China and Pakistan separate.
30:14If you get them together, you'll really have issues.
30:16So in some senses, the government is doing precisely that.
30:19They would like to start at least having some contact with China,
30:23and therefore, you know, not just the kind of thing we saw
30:27post what happened in Galwan and other places.
30:31So I think that delicate situation is there,
30:33and therefore they restrained themselves.
30:35But if you notice, Rajdeep, they did not restrain themselves
30:38when it came to Pakistan, particularly Prime Minister Modi,
30:41when he talked of the Indus River
30:42and kind of blamed the Congress for doing whatever it didn't do.
30:46I mean, there were chapters.
30:47The fact is that for 10 years, the Indus wasn't mentioned
30:50except in passing when Mr. Modi was there.
30:53And of course, let's not forget, Mr. Vajpayee was there for seven years.
30:55And then NDA government didn't raise those issues.
30:59So the Indus issue is a very, very touchy issue.
31:02And I think the stance is much, much more hardened.
31:05If you also look, and that's, I think,
31:07something that might spook a lot of investors,
31:09the continuation that Operation Sindhu has just paused,
31:12it will continue.
31:13The fact that, which I think Rahul Gandhi did mention,
31:18of the fact that, you know,
31:20every terror act will be seen as an act of war,
31:22leaves a lot of uncertainty,
31:24which was a point that Rahul Gandhi had made.
31:26And that terror and talks will not mix,
31:29blood and water will not mix.
31:31This means, I mean, the interpretation is that
31:33our stance with Pakistan is considerably hardened.
31:38We are not going to see any sort of thaw in this.
31:41And that is, you know, leaves this position very, very tenuous.
31:45It means that Operation Sindhu really didn't sort out
31:48the differences between the countries.
31:49And they are poised if we don't watch out for another attack.
31:52So that is a downer in terms of, I mean,
31:55I'm not advocating that we should have good relations
31:57with Pakistan at this point.
31:59But I'm saying we need to watch that aspect of it,
32:01because it does concern the world
32:03if two nuclear powers get back
32:05and battle it out once more,
32:07as they did just a couple of months ago.
32:09So, let's turn to the next question.
32:11Pahal Gaam accountability fixed or not?
32:14Interestingly, that was a question
32:16not raised so much by Rahul Gandhi,
32:18but by his sister Priyanka Gandhi,
32:20responded to by Amit Shah.
32:23Take a look.
32:23Priyanka Gandhi Badra versus Amit Shah
32:26on Pahal Gaam accountability.
32:28Pahal Gaam accountability.
32:58Congress, Congress, Congress, and Anis Ibrahim Kaskar,
33:02Tiranvay meh baga, inki sarkar.
33:06Riyaj Bhatkal, 2007 meh baga, inki sarkar.
33:11Iqbal Bhatkar, 2010 meh baga, inki sarkar.
33:16Meeh jah sarkar.
33:18Meeh jah sarkar bheg, 2009 meh baga, inki sarkar.
33:22Ab mahaniwar mehra toh javaab maang liya.
33:25Amare sarkar sarkar balo ne mehra javaab bhi dhe dya.
33:28Ab Rahul Gandhi iska javaab dhe.
33:32Kal Sattah Paksh,
33:33and today we also,
33:34Sattah Paksh ke netaou ne,
33:372008 ke Mumbai ke hamlou ki,
33:39ka zikr kiya,
33:39bar bar kiya,
33:40bar bar kaha,
33:41ki Manmohan Singh ji ki sarkar nye kuch nai kiya.
33:44Yeh toh jahnkari hooggi na,
33:46ki osi sameh,
33:48jab woha aatankwadi hamlata chal raha tha,
33:50tabhi unha aatankwadiyong ko maar đala tha.
33:52Ek bacha tha,
33:53aur usko bhi phashi dhe dhi thi,
33:552012 meh.
33:58Maharashtra ke mukhya mentri nye istifah diya.
34:01Rajnath ji,
34:02toppulwama,
34:04Urii,
34:05aur pathan koat ke sameh grayh mentri rahe thay.
34:09Aaj mehra raksha mentri hai.
34:10Aur humare grayh mentri mahodai shri amit shah ji ke naak ke niche,
34:18pura manipur jal gaya.
34:20Dillii meh dhanghe huye,
34:22pahal gaam meh amla huwa.
34:24Aur aaj bhi weh usi pad par bäithe hain.
34:27Kyo?
34:32Accountability for pahal gaam.
34:36Ashok Malik,
34:37it appears that Priyanka Gandhi Badra,
34:39she struck of course an emotional chord,
34:41I'll come back to that in a moment,
34:42but the fact is,
34:44demanding accountability.
34:46This is a theme the opposition has had through this debate,
34:49that the government is avoiding
34:50taking any accountability or responsibility
34:53for the pahal gaam major security lapse.
34:57If you ask for it during 26-11,
35:00and ministers resign,
35:01home minister, chief minister,
35:03why has no one resigned now?
35:04Your response.
35:05Look, to be honest with you,
35:08I am not a great advocate.
35:09I wasn't,
35:10under no government,
35:12of people just resigning
35:14after an event of this nature.
35:18People are expected to take charge and respond,
35:21not just resign.
35:23You know,
35:23if everyone resigns,
35:25no country will have any government left.
35:26Because tragedies do happen,
35:29missteps do happen,
35:30errors do happen,
35:31across the world.
35:32Now,
35:33if you look at
35:33the situation in Jammu Kashmir
35:36since 2019,
35:38since the abolition of article,
35:39or revocation of article 370,
35:41there has certainly been an improvement.
35:43An improvement in security,
35:46an improvement in
35:46the economy of the state,
35:48an improvement in development.
35:51Amit Shah,
35:52Nayanda Modi,
35:53the BJP government
35:54get credit for that.
35:56Equally,
35:57if there has been,
35:59there have been
36:00lapses of judgment
36:01at Pahlgahm,
36:02which they clearly were,
36:04they will have to
36:05bear the political price for that.
36:06There is no question.
36:08Both are equally important.
36:09Both are valid.
36:11So,
36:12if you want to criticize
36:13the Home Minister
36:14for Pahlgahm,
36:14of course,
36:15go ahead and do it.
36:16But equally,
36:16give him credit
36:17for what has been achieved
36:18over the past six years.
36:19And there have been achievements.
36:21Okay,
36:22point taken.
36:22Ashutosh,
36:23your response.
36:24The direct attack
36:25Priyanka Gandhi,
36:26Wadra,
36:26and many opposition leaders
36:27made was on
36:28Amit Shah
36:29calling for the resignation
36:30of the Home Minister.
36:32Do you believe
36:32that's a valid demand
36:33to make
36:34or was it typical
36:35political rhetoric
36:36in Parliament?
36:38See,
36:38Rajdeep,
36:38I want to remind you
36:39much before
36:40this operation
36:41Pahlgahm
36:42and the Uri
36:42and the other things
36:43happened,
36:44Rajna Singh
36:44categorically said,
36:46it's a very arrogant
36:49statement coming
36:50from the Rajna Singh.
36:51See,
36:51in every democracy,
36:52in every administration,
36:54in every bureaucracy,
36:56the head should roll.
36:57Somebody has to take
36:58the responsibility.
36:59I'm not saying
37:00Amit Shah should resign.
37:01But what about
37:02Manoj Sina?
37:03What about
37:04the chief
37:05was looking after
37:06the security
37:06in that particular area?
37:09Somebody has to be
37:09made accountable
37:10so that
37:11the successor
37:13who comes
37:14to the post
37:15learns a lesson.
37:17He knows that
37:17if he misses
37:18an opportunity,
37:19then certainly
37:19his heads
37:20are going to roll.
37:21But unfortunately,
37:22in this government,
37:23there is no question
37:24of accountability.
37:25Absolutely no question
37:26of accountability
37:27and they don't believe
37:28into being accountable
37:29to the parliament.
37:30That's a reality.
37:31And the kind of arrogance
37:32which is shown
37:32by the government,
37:33I've never seen
37:34that kind of arrogance
37:34ever.
37:35Neither in the
37:35Atal Bihari Vajmi
37:36is governed
37:36on any other government.
37:38It is this arrogance,
37:39it is trying to
37:39brazen out.
37:41They want to
37:41brazen out everything.
37:42Look at the
37:42prime minister
37:43is saying that
37:44135,
37:45Rahul Gandhi
37:45has asked a question.
37:46The why
37:46Radha Singh
37:47was informing,
37:48the DGM
37:49was informing
37:50to Pakistan
37:50135 in the morning.
37:52He's brazen
37:52it out,
37:54despite,
37:54you reason it out.
37:55But unfortunately,
37:57not reasoning it out.
37:58They're brazen
37:59out.
37:59That's the sad
37:59part of it.
38:00And forget it.
38:01This government
38:01doesn't believe
38:02into being accountable.
38:04National Security
38:04Advisor is saying
38:05that one is not
38:06a shisha
38:06You're five
38:08army leaders
38:10have said openly,
38:12if the government
38:12has been listening
38:13to them,
38:13government should
38:14be thinking
38:15they committed
38:15a plunder
38:16and army
38:17top leaders
38:20of the army
38:20are unhappy
38:21with it.
38:21Deputy Rahul Singh,
38:23Group Captain
38:23Shukumar,
38:24and others.
38:25There's a whole
38:26lot of people.
38:27Air Marshal
38:28AP Singh,
38:28long back
38:29has said,
38:29a few days back
38:31has said.
38:31You're talking
38:32about their
38:32claims about jets
38:33down,
38:34but accountability
38:35Raj Chengappa.
38:36Raju,
38:37there's a belief
38:37that right
38:38through this debate
38:39or right through
38:39the last three months
38:40in all these,
38:41in all the rousing
38:42rhetoric,
38:43what about
38:43accountability?
38:44Is that a question
38:47that must be
38:48asked or not?
38:49Particularly of the
38:50LG of Jammu and
38:52Kashmir,
38:52for example,
38:53Manoj Sina.
38:54There is no doubt
38:56there was an
38:57intelligence and
38:57security failure
38:58that happened
38:59because you cannot
39:00have tourists
39:01gunned down
39:02in the manner
39:02that happened
39:04and we sadly
39:05saw in Pahlgaam
39:06and especially
39:08after the government
39:09had,
39:10in fact,
39:10I think Priyanka
39:11Vadra Gandhi
39:13had pointed out
39:14that fact
39:15that they had
39:16claimed that
39:17they had brought
39:17peace to Kashmir
39:19and things were
39:19safe enough for them
39:20and the fact
39:21that there was
39:22very little security
39:23in an area
39:23that was pretty
39:24obvious could have
39:25been a terror target
39:26especially with
39:27Pakistan wanting
39:28to hit back
39:29for whatever reasons
39:30whether it's
39:30Balochistan or
39:31an ambitious
39:32general coming in
39:33and wanting to
39:34make a mark.
39:35So that is
39:36something we need
39:36to look at
39:37and if you look
39:38at the conduct
39:39of the war also
39:39which you mentioned
39:40the tactics that
39:42we use,
39:42we did see
39:43the chief
39:45of defense
39:46staff talk
39:46about it
39:47saying that
39:48there were
39:48tactical issues
39:49that India
39:50learned quickly
39:51and then was
39:52able to hit
39:52right back.
39:53The fact
39:54that we have
39:54a cyber war
39:55which was
39:56a very secret
39:57cyber war
39:57which didn't
39:58really come
39:58out much
39:59in the press
40:00but there
40:01were over
40:012 million
40:02sort of
40:02attacks against
40:03our banks
40:04and critical
40:05infrastructure
40:05establishments
40:06apart from
40:07defense
40:07and we
40:09were able
40:10to contain
40:11most of
40:11them
40:11but I
40:12think 150
40:13or so
40:13came through
40:14which is
40:14quite a high
40:15number
40:15if you talk
40:16to security
40:16experts
40:17that's also
40:18a matter
40:18of concern
40:19that they
40:19were able
40:19to penetrate
40:20our defenses
40:21in many
40:22senses
40:23though we
40:23knocked down
40:24a lot
40:24of the drones
40:25there were
40:25concerns
40:26about that
40:27as well
40:27that we
40:27need to
40:28look at
40:28so there
40:29are 2
40:29ways of
40:30doing this
40:30you had
40:30the cargo
40:31commission
40:31that went
40:32into some
40:32of the
40:33issues
40:33is it
40:34early enough
40:35for a
40:35commission
40:35or should
40:36we wait
40:36because we
40:37are still
40:37saying that
40:37Sindhu is
40:38on pause
40:38not fully
40:39there
40:39which will
40:40go into
40:41some of
40:41these
40:41or you
40:42do it
40:42within the
40:42government
40:43to go
40:43into some
40:44of these
40:44critical areas
40:45there have
40:46been issues
40:47that we
40:47need to
40:48look at
40:48and get
40:49into whether
40:49it is the
40:50security and
40:50intelligence
40:51apparatus
40:52whether it
40:53is the
40:53counter cyber
40:54measures
40:54that we
40:54took
40:55whether it
40:55is the
40:56kind of
40:56political
40:56action
40:57that we
40:57have
40:57taken
40:57in terms
40:58of the
40:58industry
40:58water
40:59abeyance
41:00and the
41:01treaty
41:01abeyance
41:01whether
41:02the
41:02psychological
41:03aspects
41:03of the
41:03war
41:04the way
41:04we handled
41:05our
41:05communications
41:06the
41:06armed
41:07forces
41:08handled
41:08their
41:08communications
41:09the government
41:09handled
41:09the communications
41:10during Sindhu
41:12the narrative
41:12that Pakistan
41:13seemed to have
41:14got in the
41:15beginning
41:15that initiative
41:16that they
41:16had
41:16all these
41:17are questions
41:17that we
41:17need to
41:18look at
41:18as we
41:19review
41:19what really
41:20happened
41:20the fact
41:20is even
41:21after
41:21Pulwama
41:21we still
41:22don't know
41:24whether
41:24accountability
41:24was fixed
41:25so there
41:25is that
41:26question
41:26of
41:27accountability
41:27but at
41:28the same
41:28time as
41:28Ashok
41:29Malik
41:29pointed out
41:29the government
41:30can also
41:31take credit
41:31for certain
41:32aspects
41:32that may
41:33have changed
41:34on the
41:34ground
41:34in Jammu
41:35and Kashmir
41:36which brings
41:36me the
41:37question
41:37since you
41:38mentioned
41:38information
41:38who won
41:39the war
41:40of narratives
41:41listening
41:41to what
41:42Prime Minister
41:43Modi
41:44and the
41:44leader
41:44of the
41:45opposition
41:45Raul Gandhi
41:46said
41:46in
41:47Pakistan
41:48Pakistan
41:49I am dealing with myself, I am not the only one who has been in the US, but that I am
41:54also the only one who has been in the US and has been in the US.
42:00We have been in the US of the US and the US of this country.
42:03It is a very difficult time to come to the US.
42:08The US of the US has been on the US of the US.
42:14we are prepared we were also prepared we were also prepared but we told the world that our
42:25destiny is our destiny is our destiny we are coming up with the condition and
42:31foreign
43:01in the 10th of May, in the morning of the 10th of May, in the morning of the 10th of May,
43:06our officials have been in the country of Pakistan, which Pakistan has never been
43:21and I listened quite carefully when people speak and Rajnath Singh Ji said that Operation
43:48Sindhoor began at 1.05 in the morning and then he said the most shocking thing he
44:15said at 1.35 we called Pakistan we called Pakistan at 1.35 and we told them that we
44:30have hit non-military targets and we do not want escalation these are the words
44:39of the defense minister of India
44:46who won the war of narratives then because this debate was often about narratives Ashok Malik who do you think won the war of narratives
45:03Modi's muscularism or the Congress's attack on what they perceive as the government's failures
45:10as the government's failures
45:17you're on mute sorry
45:19my apologies Rajnath Singh and the debate of this nature in parliament they are good moments and they are embarrassing moments for both sides
45:27let's make that very clear okay there's no one speech which is completely great or no one speech is completely bad
45:33having said that the Narendra Modi government's record and credibility on national security despite tactical errors which might have taken place during Operation Sindhoor
45:44is there for all to see it is very strong it remains very strong I would say it remains the strongest part of the Modi appeal
45:52to this day so I would say on national security on the success of Operation Sindhoor which again despite some shortcomings
45:59despite our strategic communications being a little less to desire and despite losing a couple of planes or some planes I don't know how many
46:08despite all of that our ability to strike terror camps in Pakistan including in the heartland of Punjab and across the country
46:16and our ability to strike something like 11 air bases of Pakistan across the country left its
46:23has left a mark and clearly in that speaks for the success of Operation Sindhoor despite sharp shortcomings
46:31so I would say on Operation Sindhoor the Modi government has gained more than it has lost
46:37okay Ashutosh quick answer has Prime Minister Modi and in this debate rewritten
46:44strategic doctrine called of Pakistan's nuclear bluff or as the opposition is claiming shown a weakness
46:52which is being camouflaged by rhetoric see this is the this is the third in a row that the government has lost
47:04the narrative if you start from 2024 onwards they lost the narrative on the issue of constitutional
47:11same constitution they lost the narrative on the caste caste census and they lost the narrative today
47:16so I'm not saying whether the Congress has won the narrative that's a different story altogether
47:21the fact of the matter is on the day when the government when the ceasefire was announced
47:26if you had read and followed the social media platforms of the RSS guys they were so so unhappy
47:33so so unhappy you know this is the tragedy when you're trying to build an image of a macho masculine Hindutva
47:40and then you suddenly decide to have a ceasefire with the Pakistan
47:43and I never found a government more confused with a visible Pakistan than the Modi government
47:48you are saying that we have learned everything from Pakistan
47:51they've gone into the heart the Prime Minister keeps saying we went where no other Indian leader has gone
47:56we went into the heart of Pakistan
47:58Rajdeep 10 seconds
48:00Rajdeep 10 seconds
48:02you are saying that Pakistan is the mother of terrorism
48:05then you are why are you informing to the Pakistan military that I'm not attacking you
48:09I'm attacking the terrorists
48:12because I have a limited objective of only targeting the terror infrastructure
48:19that's a confusion altogether
48:20then don't tell to the whole country that you taught a lesson to the Pakistan's
48:23because Pakistan is the mother of terrorism in this country
48:26and you are trying to tell Pakistan I'm not attacking you I'm attacking terrorists
48:29so either you are confused or you want to hold the country to get confused
48:33okay Raj Chengappa
48:35Modi's muscularism has it been exposed after Operation Sindhuur or during it
48:41or has it been his stature as this muscular strongman leader been enhanced
48:46or has Rahul Gandhi punctured it a bit
48:49I divide it into two
48:51there's domestic and international domestic the rhetoric and whatever happened in parliament
48:56certainly he came across as a tough and strong leader
48:59and someone who showed restraint because this argument that you should have continued the war
49:04we all knew that if two nuclear powers go head on the outcome can be disastrous
49:09particularly if they start going to the missile level which it was heading towards
49:13so you had a limited objective you achieved it and pulled back on it
49:17and of course Rahul Gandhi tried to be clever by saying
49:19well you should have you know why did you warn them
49:22we want obviously we want them that look we're only going to strike your terror
49:26things we didn't want an all-out war
49:28neither side wanted it for that matter
49:30now if you come therefore I think he comes you know and his actions always speak louder than their words
49:35he does go ahead and you know he means what he says and says what he means
49:40let's put it that way
49:41but if you look at the other side of it and there the words seem to shout louder than whatever actions
49:47was that the fact that Donald Trump has reiterated this 25 times
49:51the fact that he met as you mentioned earlier General Munir and had lunch with him
49:55and the fact that overall we seem to go suddenly getting back hyphenated with Pakistan
50:02is not a good sign in terms of the way we are conducting say international image that is there
50:08and that's something that the government needs to think of
50:10because we don't want to go back to that old situation where we're being equated with Pakistan
50:14we need to deal with Pakistan with the way we want it to be
50:17we are a major power that needs to do other things as well
50:21okay I just have a minute or so but I want to leave you with an intriguing question
50:26maybe we'll need a fuller debate on this
50:28Modi's muscularism versus Nehruvian diplomacy
50:32and the only reason I'm asking this is because Prime Minister Narendra Modi
50:36in 2025 mentioned Jawaharlal Nehru who passed away in 1964
50:4214 times won 4 times in his speech
50:46clearly in that says Ashok Malik somewhere the Prime Minister is still obsessed with Jawaharlal Nehru
50:53well you know I think Nehruv gets mentioned a little too often by both sides
51:00both the Congress and the BJP in our political debates
51:04yes there were some foundational mistakes especially with Kashmir and China in Nehruv's time
51:09there were also achievements in his time
51:11Nehruv tried diplomacy Nehruv could also be muscular as he was with Goa
51:16Modi is muscular as he showed us with Sindhur
51:19Modi has also been an astute diplomat on many occasions
51:23so politics and governance are more complex
51:26I've just got a minute yes quick 30 seconds
51:28in this matter I've you know I've researched say India's nuclear bomb and looked at what every Prime Minister has done
51:34and I'm very happy to say I'm very proud by each of their actions
51:38I don't think you need to be a leader who cuts another leader down to appear taller
51:43I think it's very important that every leader at a particular point took a decision based on what he thought was the best interest
51:50could have made mistakes but that was you know when you do a job it's a tough job
51:54and therefore I would rather say let's be positive let's not cut others
51:58there were a lot of good reasons why they could have done or not done some things
52:02let's move ahead on on this debate
52:04let me leave it there Ashutosh you want final 10 seconds
52:07Modi versus Nehru you can make it a book in the future
52:11you're on mute
52:16Asdeep I call it Nixon's Kennedy complex
52:20okay Nixon's Kennedy complex we leave it whether it is Prime Minister Modi's Nehru complex
52:26but just think about it as I said 2025 the Prime Minister of India is mentioning Jawala Nehru 14 times
52:36that's all that I have for you on the show today
52:39thanks very much for watching
52:41the Parliament debate of course will continue tomorrow in the Rajya Sabha
52:45as well stories from across the country
52:47that was the news hopefully without the noise
52:50thanks for joining me stay well stay safe
52:53good night Shubratri
52:55Jaihin Namaskar
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