'There is no alternative to the two-state solution to end the Israeli-Palestinian conflict'

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00:00Next, there is no alternative to a two-state solution between Israelis and Palestinians.

00:05That's according to the French foreign minister as he opened a UN conference on Gaza,

00:09which has been boycotted by both Israel and the US.

00:12The meeting comes days after the French president announced that Paris would recognize a Palestinian state in September

00:18at the annual gathering of world leaders at the United Nations General Assembly.

00:22This week's conference in New York is being co-hosted by France.

00:26We wanted to hold the conference as soon as possible because time is not on our side.

00:34The situation in Gaza is horrendous.

00:38The plight of the hostages still held by Hamas.

00:41The pictures we see every day of hungry civilians under bombardment,

00:45of women and children trapped by this war overwhelms us all as a flagrant attack on our humanity

00:53and on the principles of international law.

00:59For more on the crisis in Gaza, we're joined now by former hostage negotiator and columnist,

01:04Gershon Baskin.

01:06He's founder and co-director of the Alliance for Two States.

01:10Gershon, thanks so much for being with us on the programme this evening.

01:13We do appreciate your time.

01:14We're speaking to you as delegates are in New York for this conference.

01:18We're talking about promoting the notion of a two-state solution for Gaza,

01:22coming, of course, just days after France said it would recognise the state of Palestine.

01:26Are we any closer, in your view, to such a state?

01:31Well, as the French foreign minister said,

01:34there is no alternative to the two-state solution to end the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

01:38This horrific war that we've seen in Gaza over the last 22 months

01:42really has to be the last Israeli-Palestinian war.

01:45Now, both the Israeli and Palestinian people are far away from recognising

01:50that there is a possible solution because we've grown so used to the idea

01:53that the people on the other side of this conflict are our enemy

01:57and they don't want to live in peace.

01:59But the recognition of the state of Palestine by France,

02:02perhaps by the United Kingdom, Canada, Australia, other countries,

02:05joining in is a step in the right direction

02:08because these countries have spoken about a two-state solution for years,

02:12but they've only recognised one of those states.

02:15It's important that the people of Israel hear the message

02:17that the world wants this conflict to end.

02:19The world recognises the state of Israel

02:21and now it's time to recognise the state of Palestine.

02:24And as you say, international pressure mounting on Israel.

02:27Why is the EU unable to act?

02:29Just in the past few minutes, the German Chancellor,

02:32he's been holding a meeting of a security cabinet saying that,

02:35you know, there's been no decision made to take any measures at all against Israel.

02:40What I understand is that the issue of sanctions,

02:43the issue of recognition are EU decisions

02:46and not the individual states in the European Union.

02:53France, I guess the issue of recognition does come to individual sovereignty issues,

02:58but issues of sanction and trade policies are EU general policies.

03:01And I think that the sanctions or the idea of sanctions are being brought up now,

03:07at least limited sanctions, perhaps against Israeli settlers

03:10that the European Union believes are illegal settlements

03:13in the occupied Palestinian territories.

03:15Just as an example, all Israelis enjoy visa-free entry into the European Union,

03:21but people living in the occupied territories,

03:23the 700,000 Israeli settlers, are not living in the state of Israel.

03:27Why should they enjoy visa-free entry into the European Union?

03:30It's easy enough for the European Union to determine that people entering the EU

03:35need to fill out a form on the Internet,

03:38just as people entering Israel need to do, or the United States.

03:41And should they indicate that their address is the occupied Palestinian territories,

03:45they would not enjoy visa-free entry into Europe.

03:47These are the kind of steps that can be done.

03:50It's not punishing all of Israel.

03:51It is sanctioning Israeli policies that are against international law.

03:55And how significant do you think it is today, Gershon,

03:59that two leading human rights organizations in Israel,

04:02they're accusing it now of committing genocide?

04:05We're hearing this more and more.

04:07I think it's important to emphasize that what Israel is doing in Gaza is not the Holocaust.

04:12The Holocaust was a specific act by the Nazi regime against the Jewish people during World War II.

04:18But after World War II, the international community got together and drafted the Convention for the Prevention of Genocide.

04:25Many Jewish people were involved in the drafting of that convention.

04:29If you read the convention and understand what it says,

04:31what Israel is doing fits into the definition of genocide according to the International Convention.

04:36And this is very important because the world has a responsibility to prevent it.

04:41And action needs to be taken to prevent genocide,

04:44not just by providing food to the people of Gaza,

04:46but by ensuring that this war comes to an end.

04:49And do you think that we're seeing perhaps a change in tone from Donald Trump?

04:52He has been today talking about starvation of people, of children in Gaza,

04:57something that the Israeli Prime Minister continually denies.

05:01So is that a sign that the position might be changing?

05:06Perhaps it is.

05:07I think that the 180-degree reverse of Israeli policy now letting international aid into Gaza,

05:14letting some of the international organizations, the United Nations, the World Central Kitchen,

05:18and others distribute aid is a change in direction.

05:21And it has to be as a result of an order from Donald Trump to Benjamin Netanyahu.

05:26We've also heard from Trump that Israel needs to make hard decisions

05:29and it needs to do something different to get the hostages back.

05:32Now, we don't know if Trump is saying to Israel that they need to step up the warfare

05:36and launch even more attacks against the 25% of Gaza,

05:40which they don't occupy yet with 2 million people living there.

05:44Or is Donald Trump going to tell Benjamin Netanyahu that the time to end the war is now,

05:49that they should make a deal with Hamas?

05:51The basic problem that we're facing is that no one has dealt with the issue

05:55of who's going to govern Gaza after this war.

05:57Certainly, Hamas cannot, the Palestinian people don't want Hamas there anymore.

06:02But Mahmoud Abbas, the Palestinian president, hasn't done anything to make sure

06:05that there is an alternative Palestinian government in Gaza.

06:08That's what we need to focus on as well.

06:11Gershon, we'll have to leave it there.

06:12Unfortunately, we're out of time.

06:14We do really appreciate you taking the time, though, to speak with us.

06:16That is former hostage negotiator, columnist, and co-director of the Alliance for Two States.

06:22Gershon Baskin, thank you.

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