- 3 months ago
Two days back, India's Aircraft Accident Investigation Bureau (AAIB) released its preliminary report into the June 12 Air India crash in Ahmedabad, which claimed 260 lives.
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00:00Let me introduce those guests at the moment first and then we'll take it forward as to exactly what could have happened in this investigation.
00:08I'm joined by Group Captain Aurobindo Honda. He's former Director General Aircraft Accident Investigation Bureau.
00:15By Wing Commander Sharad Panikar. He's flown Boeing 787s for years at Air India.
00:22Vandana Singh is Chairperson Aviation Cargo.
00:24Thank you all very much for joining us, all three of you on the show today.
00:28Let's go question by question and then we can get a sense of what perhaps was the reason, the unanswered question.
00:37Fuel switch movement, deliberate, inadvertent or electrical fault.
00:40This is now becoming the critical element. Why don't you start Captain Panikar because you're the one who's flown 787s.
00:47What's your sense given this report?
00:50Okay, let's review the facts that are available to us at this point in time.
00:56The report says that the fuel control switches have transitioned from run to cutoff.
01:06Yes.
01:06And this has happened within a period of one second.
01:10Now, I've flown the aircraft for 10 years. I have a lot of experience on type and I can tell you with a certain degree of authority that it is very, very difficult to reach for a switch.
01:26First, visualize the situation in the cockpit.
01:30The rotation has just happened, the pilot flying is looking out, concentrating on his take-off, the pilot monitoring is also looking out, looking at other factors, momentarily glancing inside.
01:42Now, within three seconds of that lift-off, somebody has to take his eyes off from the situation outside, look within, identify a switch, move it, lift it up and move it to the cutoff position.
02:01Thereafterwards, he has to move his hand to the other switch, identify it, lift it up, it's a spring-loaded switch, remember, pick it up and then move it to a cutoff position.
02:13And do this entire procedure within a period of one second.
02:17Physically, I would say that's near impossible.
02:21Second thing.
02:22But the report says so, right?
02:24The report says within three seconds of take-off, the fuel switch was cut off.
02:29Yes.
02:30But the…
02:31Could it have been disengaged by, could it have been a malfunctioning switch or does it require, as Captain Ranganathan suggested, human intervention?
02:41In my opinion, a human intervention was not there at all.
02:46Was not there?
02:47No.
02:47In my opinion, the timing of the DFDR, which says that the switches have transitioned from a run to a cutoff, within a period of one second, is more indicative of an electrical signal.
03:03Something that you can have for both the engines, just a signal going.
03:08So you're saying an electrical failure more likely, Captain?
03:11I would say you have to examine other factors as well, as to what are the other various things that are involved.
03:18But you're ruling out human intervention in the moving of the switch.
03:22I would say it's extremely, extremely unlikely.
03:25Okay.
03:26Group Captain Aurobindo Honda, your view on that, on the fuel switch transition?
03:30Jai Hind everybody, to cut it short, I would like to agree with what the Wing Commander Panikkar has said.
03:43Human intervention over a period of one second, cutting off both the fuel supply cocks is nearly impossible.
03:52So we have to, the investigators, let us allow them to work, let them, they will certainly, if we sitting here, can, we can, we can suggest that this is what should be done.
04:03This is what should be done.
04:04So honestly, the investigators do, they will also look at all the scenarios.
04:09So let us not discuss, let us not discuss this, because another round of speculation is starting.
04:16Sir, the problem, sir, the problem, if I may say so, is because of the nature of the report.
04:20The report, because it focuses on this particular so-called conversation in the cockpit, it has led to speculation.
04:28Should that have, should we have been either provided the entire transcript without the selective two lines?
04:34Rajdeep, Rajdeep, let me tell you one thing.
04:38I will take one minute.
04:40Legally, as per our aircraft accident investigation rules, India is a sovereign country and we are not supposed to publish any report.
04:51I am doing it on your channel.
04:55It is a part of Annex 13.
04:58But Annex 13 is not, it is not mandatory that I copy everything.
05:04And our worthy predecessors who made this AIB rules, they have not incorporated that thing.
05:11However, the top leadership in civil aviation and the country's leadership, they thought it wise, because they were seized of the situation.
05:18So they thought it wise to come out with some information.
05:21Now people have started doing another round of speculation on that.
05:24Are you saying therefore, captain, are you saying the report should have never been made public at this stage?
05:36No.
05:37As per the rules, please listen to me.
05:39This is the legal position.
05:40As per the rules, suppose I do it.
05:43And there is no concurrence of my bosses.
05:45They will tell me under what authority you have published that report.
05:48Please understand, it is the other way round also.
05:51So I would request all the gurus who are on the channels to read AIB rules as of today.
05:58As of today.
05:59And don't speculate.
06:00So the country, the leadership has been very thoughtful of the grieving families that they have come out with this report.
06:07Now everyone wants that this report should have been written like this.
06:10This report, you, A says it should be written like what I feel.
06:14B says it should have been written like this.
06:16Now I will cut it short.
06:18I will come down to that line on which Captain Mohan Ranganathan has made a story.
06:24I take that thing that the pilot says I didn't.
06:27I would give credence to that fact.
06:30That when the pilot, when his co-pilot checks up with, let's not say PF or PM,
06:36when one pilot checks up with the other, have you done this?
06:38He says, no, I haven't done it.
06:39So I would like to go with that, that he hasn't done it.
06:41It means there was a, there was a signal, there was a signal which has gone to the FedEx system.
06:48So let us work, let the investigators work on that.
06:52And by the way, they have not given clean chit to anything.
06:55Neither to the engine, neither.
06:57I have listened to you, sir.
06:59I have got your point.
07:00Vandana, you want to respond?
07:01Do you believe?
07:02One minute.
07:02As is being suggested?
07:03One minute.
07:04Sir, sir, just a minute.
07:05Captain, let me get one more voice in.
07:07Because I am moving to the other channel.
07:08You know, because the fact is that there are those who are saying that the nature of this report is bound to lead to speculation.
07:13You know, the number of people who have died, this is a global story.
07:16How can you avoid the speculation if the report comes out in this very partial manner, ma'am?
07:22Rajdeep, this…
07:22Absolutely.
07:23One minute, sir, coming back to you.
07:25Absolutely, Rajdeep.
07:27I totally agree with you over here that the manner in which the report has come out is very ambiguous.
07:34It's very sketchy.
07:36And therefore, it raises all these concerns.
07:39And the concerns are that why is there just one pilot talking to other?
07:43There are just two sentences out there.
07:45Where is the entire, you know, conversation?
07:49Right.
07:49What is the essence of the report?
07:51There is nothing there.
07:52We are seeing more questions coming out of it than answers.
07:57Agreed.
07:57It is a preliminary report.
08:00But then, why take it out in this manner when nothing is coming out of it?
08:06Okay.
08:06When people will…
08:07There will be speculations from this.
08:09Obviously, there will be speculations.
08:12There will be angst from the pilots.
08:14Because I do believe that this is also not human error.
08:17I also believe that this is a FedEx-manded miscommand electrical software glitch.
08:25But it could be a factor that could be considered.
08:28Okay.
08:29Let me therefore come to the second question.
08:31Were fuel switch locks on the aircraft checked for proper engagement?
08:35Captain Panika, you want to respond to that?
08:37There is this question that because of that 2018 report in the United States, which lays questions about the nature of Boeing 787s and Boeing flights in general and whether a disengagement was possible.
08:52Because the 2018 special airworthiness information bulletin issued by the U.S. Federal Administration spoke about the potential disengagement of the fuel control switch locking feature.
09:05And Air India did not carry out the non-mandatory inspections on it.
09:10Is that a factor?
09:10Okay, let's examine again the facts.
09:15First is that Boeing, who is the original equipment manufacturer, as well as the FAA, have both examined the situation.
09:27They may have found some issue with some fuel control switches.
09:31And they have issued an awareness directive.
09:35It was non-mandatory.
09:37And it was agreed to by the regulatory authorities in the U.S.
09:40And they have also clarified today that it does not affect the airworthiness of the plane.
09:46Yes.
09:47But as a matter of abundant caution, I believe now the DGCA has issued a directive for all the operators, primarily the Boeing aircraft, using this particular type of switches.
10:02That would be the 737, the MAGS, the 757, which I think Blue Dot is operating, as well as the 787, to carry out checks and see if everything is okay.
10:16Now, we must keep in mind that the directive was only advisory in nature.
10:22Okay.
10:23And I am sure that if it was mandatory, there was no option for Air India but to carry out the full checks and record it as such.
10:32Is that Group Captain Aurobindo Honda, according to you, as a former director, Aircraft Accident Investigation Bureau, one of the fallouts of this, that all fuel switches will now have to be mandatorily checked, in your view?
10:46Rajdeep, I will tell you about my Air Force experience.
10:52In Air Force, we do not take any chance on ejection seat and aero engines.
10:57So, in 2018, when this bulletin had come, at that point of time, I have been repeating that their DGCA and the officers there, they should have called the chief pilots of all the airlines operating this aircraft and told them, along with the officers in FSD, there are some 70 officers in FSD, in DGCA, they should have put their minds together, applied themselves and come out with a solution whether it is to be done.
11:25And I am telling you, if I were the DGCA at that point of time, I would have made it mandatory because it was for the, in case there is any inadvertent frame out in Air.
11:37So, I won't have taken a chance anyway. People can always say that everyone is wise in hindsight. So, let's not go back in time. So, let's be wiser for future. So, if the DGCA has come out today with some checks, let us do it with right earnest and let's move forward.
11:54And wait for the investigation report to come. Yes. Thank you very much.
11:59Sir, the full investigation report, of course, will probably take a year. But Vandana Singh, do you believe in hindsight, many of these things, there is one impression that Boeing and Air India need to also be held more accountable in the manner that today, the focus is entirely on the pilots, not on the airline, as well as, you know, today, the Air India CEO has come out and said that we have,
12:21we have, there is no evidence of any mechanical failure, we cannot be blamed. Boeing is also giving the impression that they are a hands-off approach. Does that get a sense that both Air India and Boeing are getting away without the final report being available yet?
12:36Exactly. And that's how, that's what we are all seeing. Where are the stakeholders? Where is Air India's voice? Why are they not talking about, were they sleeping for the last seven years when the advisory came out in 2018?
12:51Advisory also came out for a certain purpose. It didn't just come out just like that. So, wasn't the advisory to be taken a little bit seriously? Weren't they to look at those switches? What about Boeing? What about Honeywell? What about the other stakeholders?
13:08What about the other stakeholders? Okay. Yeah? Okay. Let me turn to the next unanswered question. Why is there no comprehensive flight data recorder info?
13:21You want to go for that, Wing Commander Panikkar? Why is there no comprehensive flight data recorder? Should, should that entire cockpit video recorder have been, voice recorder have been made available?
13:31See, what the AIIB report has come out with is only a preliminary report. I would agree with Group Captain Honda that they have to just present facts. What this particular report has done is that it has lent itself to a certain degree of ambiguity because of the way in which the report has been worded.
13:56Like, for example, I will take a minute to elaborate upon this. If you just take that one statement of this questioning. If I, as a pilot, am asking the other pilot, did you put that switch off? What does it mean? It means that I haven't put it off. I'm asking you.
14:16I'm asking you. And you, who's flying, let's say, says, no, I've not put it off. So what is the normal, logical interpretation of this? That neither of us have touched that switch. That's number one.
14:29Number two, whenever we look at timeframe, it would have been useful. It would have been more lent itself to clarity if this particular report had explained that at this particular point in time, this happened. This was the article. This was the switch position. At this particular time, this is what happened. This was the switch position. This is the clarity.
14:56And just for information, an aircraft engine relighting would imply that that switch, in whatever position it may have been, for the relight to take place, that particular switch is definitely in the run position. If that switch is in the off position, you can never have a relight. Let us be very clear on that.
15:19And the second aspect to it is, we have a cockpit voice recorder, which is very, very sensitive. It picks up even the slightest amount of noise. If we were to examine this cockpit voice recorder very carefully, enhance maybe the audio part of it, there is a definitive click which happens.
15:42I'm not sure if we can make it out with the ambient noise in the cockpit, about the switch being lifted. It's a slightly metallic click that comes when you pick it up, you move it and you rest it back from run to cutoff.
15:57Perhaps this is another aspect that can be looked at. My main point out here is that, take the timing of this transitioning between run and cutoff. That one second. It is more indicative of an electrical signal.
16:16For example, when my fuel control switch is moved from cutoff to idle, there are several micro-switches that are made contact with, which send signals to various aircraft systems.
16:32aircraft systems. One of which, like Vandana has just covered, would be the FADEC. Again, the software, different spar valves, different fuel control valves.
16:43There is a spar valve, there is a fuel control valve, all of which make contact once the switch is moved into that run position.
16:51We have to examine these aspects as well. It is very convenient to say that, oh, it's a pilot. Everybody walks off after that, pilot error.
17:00That old saying that dead men tell no tales. Extremely unfair, extremely premature. Let's find out as to what happened, how it happened, when it happened and then pass judgment.
17:13My final question then to you, Vandana, should a pilot be part of the investigation? Many believe, as you may have heard, Captain Thomas also of the Pilots Association saying,
17:22we are the ones who fly the planes. We should be part of the investigation.
17:26Hundred percent, Rajdeep. I do believe that the pilots should be a part of the investigation. And as we speak, and as I know, and what I've heard,
17:36currently there is no 787-8 pilot sitting out there who is qualified and who can actually speak. So yes, they should be a part of investigation.
17:47Having said that, I also believe that having the pilots from our armed forces, the Indian Air Force is equally important. They should also be there.
17:57And here we have a captain here, Captain Panikar, who is also from the Indian Air Force, as well as a 787-8 pilot.
18:06So it's okay to have the best of brains in there and right now they are not there. So, over to you.
18:12Okay. Thank you both very much. Vandana, Wing Commander Panikar, Group Captain Honda.
18:18I think the reason why we chose to focus on this today is because I think we wanted some clarity.
18:24There are lots of questions swirling around. We've avoided all the speculation that's been built around.
18:29But I believe it is important that the questions raised by this report are answered by those who have the expertise to do so.
18:39Needless speculation is unfair to the families, the individuals. It is irresponsible and therefore, hopefully, someone out there will ensure greater clarity above all else.
18:53To all my guests, thank you very much for joining me on this very important and sensitive subject.
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