In an exclusive interview with India Today's Rajdeep Sardesai, author and columnist Shobhaa De strongly criticised recent incidents of language imposition in Mumbai, calling it 'dadagiri' and a 'cognizable offence'.
00:00So how should we see the resurfacing of language wars now? Joining me now is author, columnist, Shobha Deh, who occasionally likes to call herself a Maharashtran Mulgi or a woman from Maharashtra. Shobha Deh, let's cut the chase. Do you believe that Marathi should be made mandatory for anyone who lives in Mumbai or should Hindi be imposed in any manner as the MNS and the Shiv Sena are claiming?
00:30Rajdeep, let me give you a quick background to who I am. I'm not an occasional Maharashtran Mulgi. I'm Maharashtran to the core, born into a Maharashtran family, proud to be a Maharashtran and very proud of speaking and knowing Marathi.
00:45But to go back a little to what you just asked, I went to a school which was founded in 1875, surrounded by Marathi-speaking people. It was a Protestant school.
00:59We were taught by British teachers and we had five languages, including Marathi, Hindi, Gujarati, Sanskrit, French and English, of course.
01:10There was no dispute at that time at all about language being a political issue.
01:16It has been made into a political issue by warring cousins who are on shaky ground.
01:22They want to be relevant. They have an important election to fight.
01:25Suddenly they've discovered their love for the language.
01:29And forget all that. Maybe they truly do love the language.
01:33You cannot indulge in philogonism in the name of Marathi Manu's pride or Marathi language pride.
01:41You cannot do language dadagari. It's just not on.
01:44The person that they slapped, that young Jodhpur Street's salesperson there, and also what the owner said after that,
01:54is far more wise, far more relevant to a city like Mumbai, when they pointed out that language is not something that should be imposed on anybody,
02:04that you must be able to speak Marathi.
02:06That guy very wisely said that we speak in all languages. That is the spirit of our city.
02:13We do not believe in Marathi chauvinism. At least I don't.
02:17So what was it?
02:18I think most viewers would completely agree with you, violence unacceptable.
02:26But how do you, how does one respond to those who say that learning Marathi, you know, learning Marathi, speaking Marathi is important
02:37because Mumbai is at the end of the day a Maharashtrian city.
02:40Therefore, this is not Marathi linguistic chauvinism as much as just pride in your language.
02:46Capital city of Maharashtra.
02:48Why should those who migrate from different parts and come to Mumbai not learn the language of the city, I.E. Marathi?
02:56I'm not saying that for a moment. Of course, they should learn Marathi.
03:00It should be something they learn with respect and pride and not something that is thrust upon them in an aggressive manner.
03:08My only point is against using violence to impose this kind of a rule, because if you remember, Marathi, article 19 of our constitution reminds us
03:21that in terms of freedom of expression and speech, that we can speak in any language we choose to speak as citizens of India.
03:29No political party can appropriate a language and say that speak in this language or else.
03:35By all means, learn Hindi, by all means, learn Gujarati, Marathi, learn Punjabi, learn whichever language you choose to.
03:44You'll only be the richer for it.
03:46But to use it as a political tool, that is intrinsically wrong.
03:50And I'm glad that there are enough sane people across Mumbai and Maharashtra who are saying the same thing.
03:56But what would you say to those who say, you know, I hear Maharashtrians who say that we are being reduced to a minority in Mumbai.
04:05There are only now about 37-40% original Marathi-speaking people in Maharashtra.
04:11The waves of North Indian migrants are coming in, changing the demography of the city.
04:16We've heard the same argument in Bengaluru, where similar instances have happened.
04:22Kannadiga is saying, if you come to Karnataka, you must have all your signage in Kannada.
04:26You must speak in Kannada.
04:28So it seems that there is this constant sense of grievance that a section of locals feel against the so-called outsiders.
04:36And that's what's really playing out.
04:37Do you agree with that, be it in the context of a Mumbai or a Bengaluru, locals versus outsiders?
04:43You know, if it's happening in Karnataka, if it's happening in Maharashtra, it doesn't make it right.
04:50People who are agitating in this manner, I'm talking about outsiders and insiders, they're talking in a very narrow-minded way.
04:58Let's be far more progressive about it.
05:00I mean, we face this in Maharashtra and in Mumbai.
05:03I have gone through it, lived through it myself.
05:06When you remember when South Indians were targeted.
05:08And in any case, the signage across Maharashtra and Mumbai is in Marathi and in English.
05:15The script is the same.
05:16Whether it's Marathi or Hindi, it's Devanagari.
05:18So what are we actually saying?
05:20That every single person you meet on the street should be fluent in Marathi?
05:24And if that person is not fluent, you're asking to be slapped?
05:28I mean, what kind of politics is that?
05:31All I'm saying is, if you're so concerned about education, make the quality of education across Mumbai and across Maharashtra something that we can all be proud of.
05:42Focus on progressive, whatever policies you want to follow.
05:46No one's going to challenge those.
05:48But to use something suddenly to discover that, oh, we are under threat, 37% only of Marathi-speaking people.
05:55We should ask ourselves why that has happened.
05:59Mumbai has always been a cauldron and also, in many ways, a melting pot of people from across, through centuries, came from all over India and made Mumbai what it is.
06:10The vibrant capital of, in the financial capital of India, in many ways, the multicultural capital of India with a life and identity of its own.
06:21This simply will not work.
06:23Mumbai is what it is because of all the people who've come and contributed to Mumbai's richness.
06:29So to slap someone who is not in a position to retaliate is nothing but cowardly.
06:35And like I said, it is a cognizable offence.
06:38They're out on bail bonds, we're told.
06:40But actually, any other person, if not belonging to a political party, would have faced arrest.
06:46Why should the law be any different for seven people or four people who belong to a particular, almost marginalized political party in our city and state?
06:58You know, I couldn't agree with you more.
07:00I'm also going to ask my producer to stop showing those pictures of that man getting slapped.
07:07But what I find interesting here is the Hindi factor in Mumbai.
07:12I mean, here is the city, Mumbai, which is the identified with Hindi film industry of Bollywood.
07:18You've tracked Bollywood for years.
07:20Everyone wants to identify with Hindi film stars and their celebrities.
07:24Suddenly, where does the antipathy against Hindi come from?
07:28Is that what surprises you?
07:29You mentioned all those years ago, South Indians being bashed up for not learning Marathi.
07:34There was an element of job competition there.
07:37Now, Hindi speakers being targeted.
07:39Do you see that as pure politics?
07:42Because this was seen as the city that encouraged Hindi film cinema and indeed Hindi spoken as the street language of Mumbai.
07:51Well, I don't think it has anything to do, essentially, Rajdeep, with Bollywood or Hindi speaking or the Bambaya Hindi that I so admire and use myself.
08:03It has everything to do with a certain threat posed by political parties who are equating Hindutva with Hindi.
08:11I mean, Raj Thakre's statement about I'm Hindu, but I'm not Hindi.
08:15It sounds very dramatic and wonderful, but does Hinduism come with a specific language?
08:23It does not.
08:24Hinduism belongs to whoever feels like a Hindu wants to identify as a Hindu.
08:29And in every single language across the world, even if you call yourself a Hindu and you believe you're a Hindu, in French, it's equally valid.
08:37Some time ago, they tried imposing Marathi cinema at peak times at all the multiplexes.
08:44It backfired.
08:45So it's not something that is this new sudden discovery of love for just Marathi and down with Hindi.
08:52It has everything to do with politics and nothing to do with, you know, the pride in Marathi.
08:58You know, if you're proud of Marathi, make sure that you enrich the awareness of Marathi in the right possible way.
09:05A hundred-year-old lady has shown us exactly that.
09:09Her name is Yasmin Sheik.
09:10She's a Marathi grammarian.
09:12The absolute authority on Marathi, how it should be spoken, the richness of Marathi.
09:18She said only recently that language does not recognize religion.
09:23She's proud to be a Marathi grammarian based out of Pune.
09:25Why don't you use her to make sure that Marathi deserves the kind of place that you wanted to, in schools and colleges and spoken Marathi is widely, in the best possible sense, shared with the people of the city and the state, not by indulging in hooliganism.
09:44I'm completely opposed to that kind of dadagiri, no matter where it comes from and who tries to justify it.
09:51You know, just one final question.
09:53What you're saying, therefore, is all of this has less to do with the demographic changes in Mumbai.
09:58The fact that so many North Indian migrants have been coming in, it's actually purely to do with politics, trying to find ways to capture political power by the Senas, especially ahead of the crucial BMC elections next year.
10:11It's all politics at the end of the day.
10:15Absolutely, exactly that.
10:17And the threat right now that the cousins are facing, we're seeing that how the BJP performed and possibly trying to preempt something that they fear in the elections, which are tomorrow.
10:34But the Mumbaikar and the people of Maharashtra know better than to be divided on this flimsy basis alone.
10:43If they have something concrete to offer the cousins, which will benefit the people of Mumbai and of Maharashtra, by all means, put that forward.
10:52But don't use language as to beat up everybody else, because that's not going to work.
10:58The city is made what it is, so rich and so amazing for the rest of India, because of the people who've come, the outsiders, the so-called outsiders and the migrants.
11:11Who does the work on all our building sites?
11:13Is it the Maharashtra boys or women?
11:16No, it's migrants from across India.
11:19Why are they here?
11:20Because they're getting that opportunity to work here.
11:22Are we stopping Maharashtra from going to other states and saying, no, no, you must not travel for work opportunities anywhere else?
11:29No, in a country like India, there's three kinds of people.
11:34You go where the jobs are.
11:36If they're coming to Mumbai, because we're providing them an opportunity to better their lives, embrace them, welcome them.
11:43And by all means, let them learn Marathi.
11:46It's a beautiful language.
11:48Couldn't agree with you more, Shobhadeh, on that.
11:50Thank you very much for joining us.
11:52I know in the past, for your strong comments, the Shiv Sena has targeted you.
11:57So stay safe and thank you very much.
12:00Shobhadeh, speaking out there on language wars, hooliganism, completely unacceptable, is the message loud and clear.
12:12The two Thakres, in fact, are coming together for a rally tomorrow in Mumbai.
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